Men on dating ts women

[Nicole Dupre]

http://www.nikki-dupre.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/anigif-LOIS.gif
Damn, Nicole... those are some sweet-ass lens flares.
No lightning bolts, though? Lens flares and lightning bolts are a photoshopper's best friend. lol.
It's not PS. It's Photoscape. I have and use both programs. Photoscape is free and easy to use. I find it practical for quick BS like that.

[Nicole Dupre]

Courting is the step people take before they move on to sleeping with each other. This man wasn't courting you, you were sleeping with him and expecting him to stick around. If you want men to stick around the last thing you should do is sleep with them...

This is just a theory, but you can't move past differences until those differences have been acknowledged. You want to be treated like a genetic girl, but guess what? You aren't a genetic girl, and you are never going to be a genetic girl. That wasn't in your cards, that isn't who you are, you might have the emotional frame, the mindset, and even the soul of a woman, but unfortunately you weren't lucky enough to be born into a woman's body. This is your plight, the cross you'll be carrying until you die.

It is the same non-sense as telling black people they are the same as white people. No they aren't, there are anatomical differences, there are cultural differences, different family structures, and different core values inside the communities. Now how are we ever supposed to move past all these differences if nobody wants to bring them up?

Unfortunately psychology is a very young science, and I think a lot of confusion occurs when the normal turbulence of life gets intermingled with the negative internal dialog most people on this board have been experiencing their entire lives. Who here is really open to change, because I still see the gay community ostracizing the transgender community, the transgender community ostracizing their fanbase (non-100% hetero-men), and the rest of the world confused about how to treat all these groups. Hard to look at the big picture though because each individual is trying to simply find acceptance.
Good post. Let me just point out, personally, I don't see the grass being very much greener or think that SRS is going to change the important stuff. For example, I never got to go to the prom with a boy. I didn't get my period and tits when all the other girls did in 6th and 7th grade. So yeah. Those missing pieces of the socialization process are the cross that the primary TS bears. But the girls who just want the porn and escort life don't particularly give a shit. Some do, But there are LOTS of secondary TS sex workers. I didn't think so 2 years ago even. But now I do. I see the difference now. It's a real one. Secondary transsexuals think more like hetero crossdressers.

[KittyPride]

You're funny. lol Really? Oh, wow. I had no idea. I thought they'd install ovaries and a birth canal too, and that I'd menstruate once a month. *smfh

No shit, Eartha Kitt. I don't want it to change because I believe my internal plumbing will be changed. I want it purely for cosmetic reasons.

Well believe me... Ive seen girls do it.... get SRS and then claim they are no longer transsexual... to return after years to online community's. I dont know how they do it. Personally I never forget I am TS... lol
I dont know how others can forget a thing like that, lol.


If you must know, it's castration that puts me off more than the rest of it. Castration is often what girls say changed their perspective on it the most; that they weren't prepared for it emotionally. I have the tiniest little nuts anyway, but they do seem to still work. lol

Got myself two tiny nuts too with using androcur. But when I stop using androcur... they still work. I dont like the idea of a knife in that area or any area of my body for that matter lol.


As Ashley and my ex so tactfully pointed out, "all you trannys have brown dicks, balls, and assholes". And it's somewhat true if you're on hormones

eeeehm eeeehm eeeehm
God girl you had me checking myself there for a moment lol
What exactly do you mean?? Can you give an example?

eeew?
You saying I need to bleech my penis ? lol
Well... I have noticed that the skin of my penis has become thinner...but I dont think it changed color. Hmmmzzz...Or maybe so gradually I haven't noticed?

[Nicole Dupre]

Well, I have to go to WORK NOW; not spend "my inheritance". Pfffttt. Fucking moron.

I have a good life because I earned it. Keep guessing with your photographer "friend", genius. I love it. :) lol

[KittyPride]

Those missing pieces of the socialization process are the cross that the primary TS bears. But the girls who just want the porn and escort life don't particularly give a shit. Some do, But there are LOTS of secondary TS sex workers. I didn't think so 2 years ago even. But now I do. I see the difference now. It's a real one. Secondary transsexuals think more like hetero crossdressers.

True... missing out on the socialisation was the worst part for me. It still bothers me each day and has resulted that I feel I dont really belong.
I dont belong with girls (cause I have missed out on a lot of things in life) and I dont belong with boys.
It makes me feel like an outcast... or at the least outsider. And it does hurt me.
I guess I too want to belong.
If I could belong with other Tgirls I'd be happy... but we are so different. I never found a home with them.

I just have 1 good Tgirlfriend... but I like to hang around men... and not talk about girl stuff and TS stuff too much. It depresses me anyway lol.

[Nicole Dupre]

Well believe me... Ive seen girls do it.... get SRS and then claim they are no longer transsexual... to return after years to online community's. I dont know how they do it. Personally I never forget I am TS... lol
I dont know how others can forget a thing like that, lol.
The most sane transsexuals I know are post-ops who are well aware of being TS. lol I fucking love those bitches too. They're much cooler than 95% of the aimless loser M2Fs here. Trust.

[mathematics1900]

The difference is that men expects us to be men...but when they find out we are not interested in fucking them...they run...same goes for a lot of men that just dont date us out of prejudice.
I know i can be a great girlfriend...but since the world thinks of TS as MEN instead of woman...you dont get the chance....and when a guy falls for you...and finds out you are a TS...he has to deal with these prejudices also...he has to give up his heterosexual identity to the world...cause we are considered men...that the difference.

I definitely understand the difference you are referring to, however I don't understand your qualms with fucking your boyfriend. Lots of women say to themselves, "I'm going to fuck the shit out of my man tonight." There are lots of people who perform sexual acts for their partners that they don't particularly enjoy or get turned on by, so why do they do it anyways? Oh yeah, because seeing the person you care for pleasured in itself is a turn on. Why are you so bothered by a man wanting you to fuck him, would it be different if you had the surgery and he asked you to fuck him with a strap-on?

There are lots of people who hold prejudices in this world, and in my personal opinion sexuality can never be an identity. That is another problem, "heterosexual identity" what does that even mean? Is everything I am, and what my core beliefs are have anything to do with my sexual appetite or tastes? I don't think sexuality has anything to do with identity and if you can begin to separate the two you might find yourself letting more people into your life that you previously thought were unworthy.


Good post. Let me just point out, personally, I don't see the grass being very much greener or think that SRS is going to change the important stuff. For example, I never got to go to the prom with a boy. I didn't get my period and tits when all the other girls did in 6th and 7th grade. So yeah. Those missing pieces of the socialization process are the cross that the primary TS bears. But the girls who just want the porn and escort life don't particularly give a shit. Some do, But there are LOTS of secondary TS sex workers. I didn't think so 2 years ago even. But now I do. I see the difference now. It's a real one. Secondary transsexuals think more like hetero crossdressers.

I agree completely, multiple distinctions can be made in almost all areas of human personality, behavior, and motivations. It is just easier to stereotype though, as human beings it makes it much simpler to talk about large conceptual ideas when you generalize and stereotype. However most people just forget that this process doesn't apply to everyone, we are all individuals and we all have our own filters and life experiences. I am just curious to when the gay community and transgender community can reconcile and start setting a better example of what it means to be open minded and accepting of others. Otherwise how is anyone ever going to treat the community with respect when we can't even respect each other?

[KittyPride]

There are lots of people who perform sexual acts for their partners that they don't particularly enjoy or get turned on by, so why do they do it anyways? Oh yeah, because seeing the person you care for pleasured in itself is a turn on. Why are you so bothered by a man wanting you to fuck him, would it be different if you had the surgery and he asked you to fuck him with a strap-on?

You make me sound like a bad person.
Cant you, just for a little bit... and for a moment... try to put yourself in my position? Do you think Im happy that I was born in a male body? Do you think I need any emotional reassurance that I have been born male?
When I still lived as a boy I never topped and did not let anyone near my penis.
Now that I live as a woman I am more relaxed with it...
Its a giant step for me that I am open to someone (a lover) touching it... and even give me oral sex.... I would let a lover do that if it pleased him.

Im not a bad person. If I love another Im not selfish. Of course I want to please a man. But why cant you respect that some girls who feel like woman just cant do it? I would not be able to stay hard... the idea of having to top just makes me feel sick....It feels very masculine to me... and makes me feel bad about being TS even more.

Its not because im selfish or delusional. Sure... I know there are guys out there that like to receive anal sex. Good for them. But why do you insist on me doing it?? Just because I was born in a body that did not match my soul... does not mean I was born to serve men with a lust for receiving anal sex.

I think it is selfish of a lot of T lovers to think that once we have a cock... they think it feels the same for us... and that we can do the same things with it.

On hormones a cock feels totally different....my whole sexuality has changed a lot! Its not the same.

You are so insensitive to judge us girls the way you do.

[catherinefan]

A man who is into transexual are still classified Heterosexual, Now unless you want to go against human sexuality and science studies...


I don't go against such studies, Evon, but one should also not blindly accept such findings. Experts on human sexuality are after all also known to change their mind on things quite often.

Seeing how beautiful you are, I'm sure you have no difficulty attracting hetero men. I'm also sure that you can have a perfectly fine relationship with such a man on a platonic basis. But a man sexually attracted to you is not just interested in your feminine splendor. He will also want to savour that special treasure between your legs, and that at least to some degree would make him bisexual in my book. Not gay but also not strictly hetero.
Same thing applies of course to women who develop a passion for tgirls.

By the way, some studies have also shown that we are all basically bisexual.

[KittyPride]

I don't go against such studies, Evon, but one should also not blindly accept such findings. Experts on human sexuality are after all also known to change their mind on things quite often.

Seeing how beautiful you are, I'm sure you have no difficulty attracting hetero men. I'm also sure that you can have a perfectly fine relationship with such a man on a platonic basis. But a man sexually attracted to you is not just interested in your feminine splendor. He will also want to savour that special treasure between your legs, and that at least to some degree would make him bisexual in my book. Not gay but also not strictly hetero.
Same thing applies of course to women who develop a passion for tgirls.

By the way, some studies have also shown that we are all basically bisexual.

I dont really get it.
A lot of guys here insist they are straight but like to take it up the ass etc...
But when a Tgirl is fucked in the ass it must at least be bisexual lol.

A lot of men want to fuck their GGirlfriend in the ass. Its not necessarily a bisexual thing. To fuck a Tgirl in the ass... might be bisexual. But as long as the men has no interest for cock... and does not touch it etc...and is only interested in anal penetration that comes way closer in my view to being straight...
then a man that insist he only likes woman but wants to be fucked by an actual penis!!!!

[mathematics1900]

You make me sound like a bad person.
Cant you, just for a little bit... and for a moment... try to put yourself in my position? Do you think Im happy that I was born in a male body? Do you think I need any emotional reassurance that I have been born male?
When I still lived as a boy I never topped and did not let anyone near my penis.
Now that I live as a woman I am more relaxed with it...
Its a giant step for me that I am open to someone (a lover) touching it... and even give me oral sex.... I would let a lover do that if it pleased him.

Im not a bad person. If I love another Im not selfish. Of course I want to please a man. But why cant you respect that some girls who feel like woman just cant do it? I would not be able to stay hard... the idea of having to top just makes me feel sick....It feels very masculine to me... and makes me feel bad about being TS even more.

Its not because im selfish or delusional. Sure... I know there are guys out there that like to receive anal sex. Good for them. But why do you insist on me doing it?? Just because I was born in a body that did not match my soul... does not mean I was born to serve men with a lust for receiving anal sex.

I think it is selfish of a lot of T lovers to think that once we have a cock... they think it feels the same for us... and that we can do the same things with it.

On hormones a cock feels totally different....my whole sexuality has changed a lot! Its not the same.

You are so insensitive to judge us girls the way you do.

Let me stop you right there, I haven't passed any judgment on anyone. I am simply asking questions, because I'm not you, and I don't understand how you feel. That is why I am asking. Playing the victim isn't going to allow me to understand how you feel, and what you've been through in your life. The only way I am going to understand is if you are patient with me, and realize I want to understand you just as bad as you want me to understand where you are coming from, I am trying, I really am!

So from what I've gathered is you still haven't accepted being born a boy, and you feel bad about being a TS? That breaks my heart. There are women who have the same issues with their vagina, detaching themselves emotionally from something that is meant to give them immense pleasure. Everyone can be masculine and feminine, that is the beauty of people, you just happen to of worked on your emotional "feminine" side your whole life.

That doesn't mean you can't act out masculine behavior. Do you think the reason the idea of topping startles you so much is because you still haven't accepted your penis as part of who you are? To think your potential for sexual ecstasy hasn't even been reached yet...don't you want to grow?

[catherinefan]

I dont really get it.
A lot of guys here insist they are straight but like to take it up the ass etc...
But when a Tgirl is fucked in the ass it must at least be bisexual lol.


It seems indeed that you' re not getting it. Where in my post do I point to any particular sexual act?

[KittyPride]

It seems indeed that you' re not getting it. Where in my post do I point to any particular sexual act?

I was replying in general lol... not to you personally... sorry xx

[KittyPride]

Let me stop you right there, I haven't passed any judgment on anyone. I am simply asking questions, because I'm not you, and I don't understand how you feel. That is why I am asking. Playing the victim isn't going to allow me to understand how you feel, and what you've been through in your life. The only way I am going to understand is if you are patient with me, and realize I want to understand you just as bad as you want me to understand where you are coming from, I am trying, I really am!

So from what I've gathered is you still haven't accepted being born a boy, and you feel bad about being a TS? That breaks my heart. There are women who have the same issues with their vagina, detaching themselves emotionally from something that is meant to give them immense pleasure. Everyone can be masculine and feminine, that is the beauty of people, you just happen to of worked on your emotional "feminine" side your whole life.

That doesn't mean you can't act out masculine behavior. Do you think the reason the idea of topping startles you so much is because you still haven't accepted your penis as part of who you are? To think your potential for sexual ecstasy hasn't even been reached yet...don't you want to grow?

Okay since you are kind and nice... I'll answer kindly :D

But its going to be hard to explain this to you. This is also part of the frustration with being TS. People just dont understand... naturally of course. And I guess its a good thing they dont...

I havent worked on my emotional feminine side my whole life. I was denied that. Throughout my youth people insisted I was a boy for them. I have escaped from this deadly prison just in time only to discover Tlovers want to put me back in it.

Imagine if you were locked up all your life... like one of the daughters of that freak Fritzl..
And you are freed after years of trauma and anguish.... but people still see you as the girl that was abused and locked up...
And you meet a new lover...
And on a date he suprises you with a cage in his bedroom... and says... honey... just for you !

Would you not feel hurt?
But the guy will go on and say... "baby Im trying to understand... but isnt it that you havent reached your sexual potential yet? Arent you just in denial what you are? You are born for that cage!
The earlier you accept that.... the better it is for you...

This is truely how this feels for me.
Get it now?

[KittyPride]

So from what I've gathered is you still haven't accepted being born a boy, and you feel bad about being a TS? That breaks my heart. There are women who have the same issues with their vagina, detaching themselves emotionally from something that is meant to give them immense pleasure.

Sorry being TS is a handicap. Any handicap has its gifts... cause it can make you a better person... be more loving compassionate... even strong mentally (cause you go through a lot)...
But having a handicap isnt a "pleasure" and it should not be the pleasure of the guy you are dating.

[Tyler___Durden]

Still srs does not change a lot i think....its not like you suddenly stop being a TS...
You change...
From pre op Ts to post op TS.
Un-Gendering at it's best.
Blinks rapidly, then LOL.
Coz you are taking the piss, yes? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/chin.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[KittyPride]

Un-Gendering at it's best.
Blinks rapidly, then LOL.
Coz you are taking the piss, yes? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/chin.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

sorry lol.. I dont really understand what you mean hehe

[mathematics1900]

Okay since you are kind and nice... I'll answer kindly

But its going to be hard to explain this to you. This is also part of the frustration with being TS. People just dont understand... naturally of course. And I guess its a good thing they dont...

I havent worked on my emotional feminine side my whole life. I was denied that. Throughout my youth people insisted I was a boy for them. I have escaped from this deadly prison just in time only to discover Tlovers want to put me back in it.

Imagine if you were locked up all your life... like one of the daughters of that freak Fritzl..
And you are freed after years of trauma and anguish.... but people still see you as the girl that was abused and locked up...
And you meet a new lover...
And on a date he suprised me with a cage in his bedroom... and says... honey... just for you !

Would you not feel hurt?
But the guy will go on and say... "baby Im trying to understand... but isnt it that you havent reached your sexual potential yet? Arent you just in denial what you are? You are born for that cage!
The earlier you accept that.... the better it is for you...

This is truely how this feels for me.
Get it now?

The picture is definitely becoming more clear, you are definitely helping me to understand a lot more about the feelings of most tgirls. It is interesting that you chose the Fritzl case as an analogy for your own life. I can't imagine how draining it must of been to put on the front of being a boy, when all you really wanted to do was focus on your true interests.

In my eyes though the problem with the analogy is that through years of abuse those girls have become conditioned in a horrible fashion, because now making emotional connections with people and trusting them is going to be very difficult. Not entirely identical to your life but similar in regards to the intimacy issues that arise through abuse. Is a penis what makes a boy? You have a penis, but you obviously are not a boy. So I am curious as to what you think defines someone to be a boy?

I also didn't mean to say that topping, or allowing men to give you oral sex is what it means to hit "sexual potential". What I meant by that is when you become totally comfortable, on all levels with all of your desires and even in your own skin...that to me is the only time when you will be able to reach your sexual potential. Not many people get to that point though, because without emotional support from friends and family it feels like a daily struggle not to kill yourself. If those daughters of Fritzl were to tell me that they are asexual, that they don't get any pleasure from being touched, and they don't see how any could ever enjoy sex, what would you think? We could probably both agree that intimacy issues are a lot more common than most people are willing to admit.

[mathematics1900]

Sorry being TS is a handicap. Any handicap has its gifts... cause it can make you a better person... be more loving compassionate... even strong mentally (cause you go through a lot)...
But having a handicap isnt a "pleasure" and it should not be the pleasure of the guy you are dating.

You see having a penis as a handicap, I simply don't, if you saw what I saw, if you could view yourself through my eyes, then you would never speak about yourself in such a way. Also yes, it most certainly should be the pleasure of the guy you are dating, who else is supposed to enjoy your body? It is obvious you don't enjoy having your penis, so you might as well let me enjoy it, don't you agree?

[KittyPride]

The picture is definitely becoming more clear, you are definitely helping me to understand a lot more about the feelings of most tgirls. It is interesting that you chose the Fritzl case as an analogy for your own life. I can't imagine how draining it must of been to put on the front of being a boy, when all you really wanted to do was focus on your true interests.

In my eyes though the problem with the analogy is that through years of abuse those girls have become conditioned in a horrible fashion, because now making emotional connections with people and trusting them is going to be very difficult. Not entirely identical to your life but similar in regards to the intimacy issues that arise through abuse. Is a penis what makes a boy? You have a penis, but you obviously are not a boy. So I am curious as to what you think defines someone to be a boy?

I also didn't mean to say that topping, or allowing men to give you oral sex is what it means to hit "sexual potential". What I meant by that is when you become totally comfortable, on all levels with all of your desires and even in your own skin...that to me is the only time when you will be able to reach your sexual potential. Not many people get to that point though, because without emotional support from friends and family it feels like a daily struggle not to kill yourself. If those daughters of Fritzl were to tell me that they are asexual, that they don't get any pleasure from being touched, and they don't see how any could ever enjoy sex, what would you think? We could probably both agree that intimacy issues are a lot more common than most people are willing to admit.

Thanks for your answer and understanding. Love you for it.
You also asked a good question...
Im sorry if Im hard on you.... dont mean it that way... honest...

Your question: Is a penis what makes a boy? You have a penis, but you obviously are not a boy. So I am curious as to what you think defines someone to be a boy?

Thats a great question for me. Because I was treated and raised as a boy because of my genitals. But I remember thinking as a child I would one day prove them wrong, and I did.

For me being being a TS feels like rape yes. Emotional, physical and psychological. But not every Tgirl feels this way. We are no group actually and there are a lot of difference in genderdysforia.

But to answer your question... No my penis does not make me a boy. But what I do with it does. Thats how I feel it... and believe it to be. I dont hate my penis so much. I even enjoy getting rock hard and can even feel proud because of that. And I have reached my sexual potential... at least almost.
I am a pre op TS feminine bttm. Thats my sexuality... wether its oral or anal... I enjoy the two just as much.
Of course I would like to make love as a real woman with the body of a GG but I am at ease with my cock.

Its my overal looks that I feel more insecure about then my cock. lol
What makes a girl or boy isnt the genitals... Its not the looks even... its the heart and soul... thats what I believe.

At least its true for me.

[KittyPride]

You see having a penis as a handicap, I simply don't, if you saw what I saw, if you could view yourself through my eyes, then you would never speak about yourself in such a way. Also yes, it most certainly should be the pleasure of the guy you are dating, who else is supposed to enjoy your body? It is obvious you don't enjoy having your penis, so you might as well let me enjoy it, don't you agree?


haha no I dont agree.
I am dating a guy that has no interest in my penis and we have a great time together. again... I dont hate my penis...but Im just not able to top you with it... and call me selfish... but I want to be sure to please a men in all his desires... and if I cant grant a desire he has... I will feel bad... and leave...
I want to make someone happy....

If a man treats me like a woman... with respect and sensitivity... if he is a good kisser and cuddles... I get a rock hard penis lol.... so if any man would want to enjoy my penis in any way... they's have to make me feel good as a woman first.

A lot of chasers just cant do that. They tend to somehow still treat us as boys... yes just because we have a penis lol
Just like sociaty did when I was young.

[EvonRose]

Well if you had read what I was saying There is a pressure to have sex right away with men, and yes I have been pressured... He also had promised things before having sex that never fell trough... So I was lied to and tricked, he stated he had emotional feelings etc etc.. all lies...

I'm young you live and learn.

But this is the pressure we get from chasers, and eventually we become so numb to it, that we are so guarded after a few.

Me being in the sex industry has got nothing to do with courtship, I really hate people generalizing that because we are escorts that we know everything in personal relationships.... I know everything about money, and traveling, and hustling.

I'm 21 mind you, I don't think many people here have been with someone at 21 and it lasted....

[EvonRose]

I don't go against such studies, Evon, but one should also not blindly accept such findings. Experts on human sexuality are after all also known to change their mind on things quite often.

Seeing how beautiful you are, I'm sure you have no difficulty attracting hetero men. I'm also sure that you can have a perfectly fine relationship with such a man on a platonic basis. But a man sexually attracted to you is not just interested in your feminine splendor. He will also want to savour that special treasure between your legs, and that at least to some degree would make him bisexual in my book. Not gay but also not strictly hetero.
Same thing applies of course to women who develop a passion for tgirls.

By the way, some studies have also shown that we are all basically bisexual.


Well that study is dumb.... We may be in a way intersex but know many ts that hate men physically and are lesbian...

We are not a sexuality we are a gender....

[Tyler___Durden]

Still srs does not change a lot i think....its not like you suddenly stop being a TS...
You change...
From pre op Ts to post op TS.

Un-Gendering at it's best.
Blinks rapidly, then LOL.
Coz you are taking the piss, yes? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/chin.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

sorry lol.. I dont really understand what you mean hehe
You are defining Trans as a separate and permanent 'Other gender'.
I've a friend who identifies thus. And there is a huge historical record (pre-christian) to support the 3rd/Other gender view.

However, almost every Ts woman I know, identifies as female,
regardless of surgery's planned / undergone.
That also applies to all of my Ts friends who Escort / do Porn.
Yes we call ourselves 'transsexuals', 'shemales' 'chicks with dicks' or whatever. But that is only in ads or DVD covers. Outside work, referring to any of us as anything other than female would cause great offence.

My point is that you view appears to me to be at variance with the self-image of most women who have a Transsexual background.
(Not that this invalidates your self identity....though your post struck me as trolling. My apologies if this was not the case. xx)

[mathematics1900]

Thanks for your answer and understanding. Love you for it.
You also asked a good question...
Im sorry if Im hard on you.... dont mean it that way... honest...

Your question: Is a penis what makes a boy? You have a penis, but you obviously are not a boy. So I am curious as to what you think defines someone to be a boy?

Thats a great question for me. Because I was treated and raised as a boy because of my genitals. But I remember thinking as a child I would one day prove them wrong, and I did.

For me being being a TS feels like rape yes. Emotional, physical and psychological. But not every Tgirl feels this way. We are no group actually and there are a lot of difference in genderdysforia.

But to answer your question... No my penis does not make me a boy. But what I do with it does. Thats how I feel it... and believe it to be. I dont hate my penis so much. I even enjoy getting rock hard and can even feel proud because of that. And I have reached my sexual potential... at least almost.
I am a pre op TS feminine bttm. Thats my sexuality... wether its oral or anal... I enjoy the two just as much.
Of course I would like to make love as a real woman with the body of a GG but I am at ease with my cock.

Its my overal looks that I feel more insecure about then my cock. lol
What makes a girl or boy isnt the genitals... Its not the looks even... its the heart and soul... thats what I believe.

At least its true for me.

Well thank you for speaking with me, I don't think you understand how much of a treat this has been! I didn't think you were being hard on me, I just think you aren't quite sure how to take me yet, but I will simply win you over with my actions. I am also positive you are attractive, just like a woman to worry about how they look when you've already got a man who obviously doesn't mind. I definitely understand why you feel the way you do then about your penis, if I could ask you just one more question, lol, since you said you really don't want to top with your own equipment, if the guy compromised with you wearing a strap-on would that still be a total no for you?


haha no I dont agree.
I am dating a guy that has no interest in my penis and we have a great time together. again... I dont hate my penis...but Im just not able to top you with it... and call me selfish... but I want to be sure to please a men in all his desires... and if I cant grant a desire he has... I will feel bad... and leave...
I want to make someone happy....

If a man treats me like a woman... with respect and sensitivity... if he is a good kisser and cuddles... I get a rock hard penis lol.... so if any man would want to enjoy my penis in any way... they's have to make me feel good as a woman first.

A lot of chasers just cant do that. They tend to somehow still treat us as boys... yes just because we have a penis lol
Just like sociaty did when I was young.

Interesting, this is very helpful, especially the kissing and cuddling part because I must say yes, most men would assume that to get a tgirl worked up all they have to do is send a picture of their penis, lol.

[EvonRose]

It seems indeed that you' re not getting it. Where in my post do I point to any particular sexual act?

insinuating a guy who is into me like amy penis as well...

False, when I get my sex change a guy say, falls in love with me... Does that make ads admirer, mind you my below is no longer dangling from my legs...

Hs fantasy now is to pound my pussy till he cums... Generalizing a population of ts admirers just won't work.

[EvonRose]

Uhmmm no we are not handicap...

That's like a black person saying their handicap cause they are black..

Unless you lose a leg or an eye, you are perfectly normal...

[allurstouse]

Sorry being TS is a handicap. Any handicap has its gifts... cause it can make you a better person... be more loving compassionate... even strong mentally (cause you go through a lot)...
But having a handicap isnt a "pleasure" and it should not be the pleasure of the guy you are dating.

So very true. It's not always true though. Some people get ground down by the world because of their differences from the norm some get polished up.

[KittyPride]

You are defining Trans as a separate and permanent 'Other gender'.
I've a friend who identifies thus. And there is a huge historical record (pre-christian) to support the 3rd/Other gender view.

However, almost every Ts woman I know, identifies as female,
regardless of surgery's planned / undergone.
That also applies to all of my Ts friends who Escort / do Porn.
Yes we call ourselves 'transsexuals', 'shemales' 'chicks with dicks' or whatever. But that is only in ads or DVD covers. Outside work, referring to any of us as anything other than female would cause great offence.

My point is that you view appears to me to be at variance with the self-image of most women who have a Transsexual background.
(Not that this invalidates your self identity....though your post struck me as trolling. My apologies if this was not the case. xx)

Hi there I identify as female and I dont think Im any different emotionally and mentally from woman. What has made me different though is that I was not allowed to be myself in my youth... that has changed me... for life...

I dont see myself as being a third gender, I belong to woman.
What I meant with it... that pre op or post op... my situation does not change. I have a transsexual body. And there are people out there that will judge me as such. And will not accept me as they would accept a GG.

Thats what I meant.

[KittyPride]

Uhmmm no we are not handicap...

That's like a black person saying their handicap cause they are black..

Unless you lose a leg or an eye, you are perfectly normal...

This is where we disagree entirely.
Skin color and genderdysforia are not even related in any sense.

Let me tell you it in another way.

I view it as a handicap. I should have been born in the body of a girl. Not a boy.
And it really has hurt me a lot and still hurts me.

You cant change that for me.
There are a lot of different kinds of gender dysforia... please accept the way I experience it.

[mathematics1900]

Well if you had read what I was saying There is a pressure to have sex right away with men, and yes I have been pressured... He also had promised things before having sex that never fell trough... So I was lied to and tricked, he stated he had emotional feelings etc etc.. all lies...

I'm young you live and learn.

But this is the pressure we get from chasers, and eventually we become so numb to it, that we are so guarded after a few.

Me being in the sex industry has got nothing to do with courtship, I really hate people generalizing that because we are escorts that we know everything in personal relationships.... I know everything about money, and traveling, and hustling.

I'm 21 mind you, I don't think many people here have been with someone at 21 and it lasted....

Well there is also pressure in society to do heroin, get married, have children, join a church, and be rail thin, why don't you succumb to all those other pressures in the world, why is sex so irresistible for you? If you knew anything about hustling you wouldn't of been hustled out of some easy sex because the dude promised you objects and shared some feelings. I think more than anything you are just embarrassed for making a bad choice. I mean, who can blame you though? You're lonely, you want a real connection, someone to look at you and see you, not just a hole to pay for...

I am sorry that you don't believe working in the sex industry affects your relationships but you couldn't be more wrong. I mean hell, people can't even handle dating cops and doctors, do you think it is going to be easy dating a provider?

[Tyler___Durden]

Ah, ok I see what you mean.
Voice coaching, FFS, Geographical relocation & thus breaking ties, SRS, HRT, Hair replanting, Lower rib removal, dental feminisation, body fat sculpting, can help. Though it costs and people die in surgery's.

Risk vs reward. Difficult call.

[KittyPride]

Well thank you for speaking with me, I don't think you understand how much of a treat this has been! I didn't think you were being hard on me, I just think you aren't quite sure how to take me yet, but I will simply win you over with my actions. I am also positive you are attractive, just like a woman to worry about how they look when you've already got a man who obviously doesn't mind. I definitely understand why you feel the way you do then about your penis, if I could ask you just one more question, lol, since you said you really don't want to top with your own equipment, if the guy compromised with you wearing a strap-on would that still be a total no for you?


You are enjoyable ! :D
Thanks for the compliments... I like them....its great to see you can read between the lines :)
Eeeehm... welll..... If I loved that guy? Like a serious relationship? Yes I guess I would do it for him. Mayble not with a strap on... But I would not mind plugging him or milking him. If I loved the guy, why not.
But I tend to be attracted to guys that aren't into that lol.




Interesting, this is very helpful, especially the kissing and cuddling part because I must say yes, most men would assume that to get a tgirl worked up all they have to do is send a picture of their penis, lol.

Hope its of some use to you.
Mind you... there are a lot of difference between Tgirls...

For example...
Evon and I have a different opinion about it being a handicap.

I experience it as a handicap... but still I wont get the surgery done.

Evon will get surgery but experiences it differently then I.

Its really confusing for you boys...
Its just as confusing for me too.

These differences.

[KittyPride]

Ah, ok I see what you mean.
Voice coaching, FFS, Geographical relocation & thus breaking ties, SRS, HRT, Hair replanting, Lower rib removal, dental feminisation, body fat sculpting, can help. Though it costs and people die in surgery's.

Risk vs reward. Difficult call.

But you assume you will never want to talk about your past again and what you went through? A stealth life would not be healthy for me. I like to be able to share my feelings... also... being able to be a woman is something special for me. Something I am gratefull for everyday. In this way I am different from most woman also.
I could not live a stealth life.
I want to share my feelings and emotions with the people close to me.

Besides... being a TS is nothing to be ashamed of.

[mathematics1900]

You are enjoyable !
Thanks for the compliments... I like them....its great to see you can read between the lines
Eeeehm... welll..... If I loved that guy? Like a serious relationship? Yes I guess I would do it for him. Mayble not with a strap on... But I would not mind plugging him or milking him. If I loved the guy, why not.

Thank you, that is sweet of you to say! Super interesting, that is all I needed to know, and I must say you are a unique person and I am glad we got to talk a bit. :-)

[allurstouse]

insinuating a guy who is into me like amy penis as well...

False, when I get my sex change a guy say, falls in love with me... Does that make ads admirer, mind you my below is no longer dangling from my legs...

Hs fantasy now is to pound my pussy till he cums... Generalizing a population of ts admirers just won't work.

yeah, but it will be a different type of objectification. Pr op or post op or even if you were a gg there will always be a large number who objectify you for your beauty. You are stunning. I guess that is a blessing as well as a curse in our society. I think it's a false assumption to think your penis attracts them now. It may attract some or many but beauty is beauty. You and a lot of other women in this forum are stunning and are going to get objectified for that alone. I'd be full of crap if I didn't admit to looking you up after reading your posts and frankly your attractiveness is quite independent of whether you dangle or not and you exude sensuality in your pictures. i am sure some only care about that part but it's probably less than you think. I can't believe that most guys dont see beautiful women. the thing is it's not really abetter place as far as finding a real partner it's still objectification. it's the issue GG face everyday. Guys tend to put charactor traits on beautiful women they wish them to have rather than see who they really are. i've done it. It is shitty for everyone involved when a fantasy is the basis of a relationship. I hope I didn't offend you with those remarks it wasn't my intent at all. I also am sure your statement is 100 percent true but, hope you find someone who wants more than that at that point :)

[EvonRose]

Well there is also pressure in society to do heroin, get married, have children, join a church, and be rail thin, why don't you succumb to all those other pressures in the world, why is sex so irresistible for you? If you knew anything about hustling you wouldn't of been hustled out of some easy sex because the dude promised you objects and shared some feelings. I think more than anything you are just embarrassed for making a bad choice. I mean, who can blame you though? You're lonely, you want a real connection, someone to look at you and see you, not just a hole to pay for...

I am sorry that you don't believe working in the sex industry affects your relationships but you couldn't be more wrong. I mean hell, people can't even handle dating cops and doctors, do you think it is going to be easy dating a provider?

Uh no i have a boyfriend, I'm not lonley...

I am embarrassed for believing him yes, but I was also younger.. there are a lot of things I'm embarrassed about such as wetting my bed at 12...

Im a dominatrix, and the guys I have dated and dated have been perfectly fine with it....

I have graduated school, kept my family together, kept a close niche of friends, moved from one coast to another, in a healthy relationship, travel, and still find time to go out, shop, do my hair and nails... honey

Being a provider has not affected that aspect of my life... Think again.

[KittyPride]

Thank you, that is sweet of you to say! Super interesting, that is all I needed to know, and I must say you are a unique person and I am glad we got to talk a bit. :-)

Same for me xx
love

[EvonRose]

yeah, but it will be a different type of objectification. Pr op or post op or even if you were a gg there will always be a large number who objectify you for your beauty. You are stunning. I guess that is a blessing as well as a curse in our society. I think it's a false assumption to think your penis attracts them now. It may attract some or many but beauty is beauty. You and a lot of other women in this forum are stunning and are going to get objectified for that alone. I'd be full of crap if I didn't admit to looking you up after reading your posts and frankly your attractiveness is quite independent of whether you dangle or not and you exude sensuality in your pictures. i am sure some only care about that part but it's probably less than you think. I can't believe that most guys dont see beautiful women. the thing is it's not really abetter place as far as finding a real partner it's still objectification. it's the issue GG face everyday. Guys tend to put charactor traits on beautiful women they wish them to have rather than see who they really are. i've done it. It is shitty for everyone involved when a fantasy is the basis of a relationship. I hope I didn't offend you with those remarks it wasn't my intent at all. I also am sure your statement is 100 percent true but, hope you find someone who wants more than that at that point :)

Wellt hat's what I believe if a guy thinks I'm hot then nothing is stopping him from wanting to fuck me regardless..

So this is why i think just because men like ts I don't think it makes them gay.. After all men hetero men are genetically gonna go gaga for

Long healthy, thick hair
a small waist
an hourglass figure
full lips
small nose
smooth, soft and healthy glowing skin.

If a guy likes only vaginas that means a guy then would like Rosie Odonell who has a vagina....

And I'm sure men would rather fuck half the girls on this forum over her...

[doctor screw]

Damn,no sleep for the wicked I guess

[EvonRose]

actually i did sleep...

I had a dream, that trannies and gg will unite...as one.

[mathematics1900]

Uh no i have a boyfriend, I'm not lonley...

I am embarrassed for believing him yes, but I was also younger.. there are a lot of things I'm embarrassed about such as wetting my bed at 12...

Im a dominatrix, and the guys I have dated and dated have been perfectly fine with it....

I have graduated school, kept my family together, kept a close niche of friends, moved from one coast to another, in a healthy relationship, travel, and still find time to go out, shop, do my hair and nails... honey

Being a provider has not affected that aspect of my life... Think again.

I like how you called me honey, it shows you are already starting to place me beneath yourself, or are you simply making a preemptive strike to protect your feelings? Since it is easier to brush off the comments of a peon, am I correct? Also you wet the bed at age 12, that is very uncommon. It is possible you had issues with your muscular system controlling your bladder but you didn't say "wet the bed until 12", simply "when I was 12 I wet the bed." Strange...

Also does having a boyfriend mean you're not lonely? Lots of people are in completely non-fulfilling relationships, you're telling me this guy completely gets you, he understands you, he's connected with you on a level where he could simply look in your direction and make you cry? Of course not, I don't think you've been that in touch with your emotions for a long time, or am I completely off base?

[MrsKellyPierce]

Great debate and communication going on in this thread...thank you

There may of been some argument and degradation, but understanding and apologies come from it

[EvonRose]

I like how you called me honey, it shows you are already starting to place me beneath yourself, or are you simply making a preemptive strike to protect your feelings? Since it is easier to brush off the comments of a peon, am I correct? Also you wet the bed at age 12, that is very uncommon. It is possible you had issues with your muscular system controlling your bladder but you didn't say "wet the bed until 12", simply "when I was 12 I wet the bed." Strange...

Also does having a boyfriend mean you're not lonely? Lots of people are in completely non-fulfilling relationships, you're telling me this guy completely gets you, he understands you, he's connected with you on a level where he could simply look in your direction and make you cry? Of course not, I don't think you've been that in touch with your emotions for a long time, or am I completely off base?

No I wet my bed because i am from a country over 100 degrees and having to adjust to a city that's always cold... Sweetie...

Your way off base i am very emotional person, but i know how to separate business with real life..

You know me as Evon Rose my hustling, money making, dom side..

But you do not know the real me outside of this this forum and this industry you don't even know my real name, my hobbies, what food i like, or movies, or games.. makign assumption based on the person alter ego/work persona is off based...

So your assumptions are offensive, and that's why I choose to place you beneath me. Rather than take time to asses the situation, you come to a conclusion. Therefore, I don't need to sit here and try to understand you either...

[doctor screw]

actually i did sleep...

I had a dream, that trannies and gg will unite...as one.

Why just tg gg unite,why not everybody...what are you sexist or something???(that was a joke by the way)

[EvonRose]

Why just tg gg unite,why not everybody...what are you sexist or something???(that was a joke by the way)

haha...

No because boys ruin everything...

[muh_muh]

A hetero predominant is bisexual....

so youre gonna pigeonhole 5 areas on his scale into 1 lable? that retarded


I think that before people start going on about the different terms for it I think they need to educate themselves on sexual terms...

you in particular


There are many exclusive hetero who only like gg and sometimes ts...

any guy whos into ts is in no way a 0 on the kinsey scale and therefore no exclusively heterosexual
i suppose its debateable whether or not attraction to transsexuals even fits in that scale at all or whether that an axis entire perpendicular to it but thats a different matter


THANK YOU!!!!!!! :Bowdown: You can easily come to this conclusion, because I'm guessing your fragile identity doesn't require believing the men who fuck you to be "heterosexual", like hers does.

im not into being fucked by men but i guess youre welcome?!? i dont even know how to respond to that post

anyway more to the point i come to this conclusion (like anybody with a working intellect will) because ive seen to much to still live in a naive world where things can be categorized and labeled easily

[catherinefan]

Generalizing a population of ts admirers just won't work.


You feel he's hetero........I feel he's bi-sexual.

If I'm generalizing aren't you doing the very same thing?

[EvonRose]

I feel like I'm so superior with a bunch of little brains...

I can't argue with people who think gender dysphoria as a sexuality...

Sexuality is the attraction of the same or opposite gender or the non attraction.

Transexuality is a gender as is male or female..

Within this gender, there is an umbrella of sexuality...

You wiki links shows nothing about transsexuality, because we mtf are with the female group.

I am a transexual mtf making me hetero/curious female therefore, a man attracted to me would be heterosexual or bisexual man or bisexual or lesbian female...

How can you guys not know this? I am so appalled by the stupidity of many people here. Yet they argue about something that is not even related..

[KittyPride]

any guy whos into ts is in no way a 0 on the kinsey scale and therefore no exclusively heterosexual


But what about a guy that dates a masculine looking girl...but because the girl has a vagina he is straight?

When another guy falls for a feminine TS he must be bisexual...

Something does not really add up here...

[mathematics1900]

No I wet my bed because i am from a country over 100 degrees and having to adjust to a city that's always cold... Sweetie...

Your way off base i am very emotional person, but i know how to separate business with real life..

You know me as Evon Rose my hustling, money making, dom side..

But you do not know the real me outside of this this forum and this industry you don't even know my real name, my hobbies, what food i like, or movies, or games.. makign assumption based on the person alter ego/work persona is off based...

So your assumptions are offensive, and that's why I choose to place you beneath me. Rather than take time to asses the situation, you come to a conclusion. Therefore, I don't need to sit here and try to understand you either...

This might come as a shock, but I've never seen any of your work or heard of you before this forum...sweetie. See? I can be condescending and rude also, but what does that accomplish? I am trying to understand you, I don't know you on any level and I wouldn't claim to know you on any level because we've never really spoke before.

I was simply asking a question, and to say you wet the bed because of cold weather, who would of guessed? I mean I've gone from 100 degree climates to extremely cold weather and I also wet the bed at the age of 12, but it most certainly wasn't due to cold weather. However that is why I asked, to see if maybe you had shared a similar experience to myself that is all.

Hustling and money making are the same thing right? So you actually believed I thought all that you were, everything that you are, was a money maker and a dominatrix(Which I didn't know by the way.)? I didn't realize you had such a low opinion of me, but don't think I share the same opinion of you. You don't have to try and understand me, that is your choice, but just because you want to throw a tantrum doesn't mean I will stop asking you questions about who you are, and what you're interested in. So, would you mind sharing what hobbies you like to do or what foods you enjoy?

[EvonRose]

But what about a guy that dates a masculine looking girl...but because the girl has a vagina he is straight?

When another guy falls for a feminine TS he must be bisexual...

Something does not really add up here...

He is confusing gender with sexuality...

He is as ignorant about transsexuality as the next bigoted closed minded person...

Transeuxality is a gender period, if the opposite gender is attracted to her thus making him hetero or possibly bi... simple,,

It's not rocket science.

[EvonRose]

This might come as a shock, but I've never seen any of your work or heard of you before this forum...sweetie. See? I can be condescending and rude also, but what does that accomplish? I am trying to understand you, I don't know you on any level and I wouldn't claim to know you on any level because we've never really spoke before.

I was simply asking a question, and to say you wet the bed because of cold weather, who would of guessed? I mean I've gone from 100 degree climates to extremely cold weather and I also wet the bed at the age of 12, but it most certainly wasn't due to cold weather. However that is why I asked, to see if maybe you had shared a similar experience to myself that is all.

Hustling and money making are the same thing right? So you actually believed I thought all that you were, everything that you are, was a money maker and a dominatrix(Which I didn't know by the way.)? I didn't realize you had such a low opinion of me, but don't think I share the same opinion of you. You don't have to try and understand me, that is your choice, but just because you want to throw a tantrum doesn't mean I will stop asking you questions about who you are, and what you're interested in. So, would you mind sharing what hobbies you like to do or what foods you enjoy?

Well duh you have never heard of me, I don't do porn, and I remain under the radar because of my family being in public eye.

Live in a country your whole life, then move to a cold weather.
http://www.ayushveda.com/health/bedwetting.htm

scroll trough emotional and environmental changes....

Take time to educate yourself before sounding dumb.

Your not trying to understand anyone. Actually by me bringing up the bed wetting problem and then you make me feel like it's some bad thing to further my embarrassment only shows me the true intent of you even conversing with me...

And no i will not share my personal hobbies, you want to find something wrong with my hobbies as well? Not gonna happen, totally lost my trust.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Grim I found almost every post you made as a way to score brownie points..kudos

Yeah maybe I wanted prince charming in high school, like every female does..especially when I used to watch Sleeping Beauty on repeat..

But you grow out of it typically in college and through dating error and mistakes..social networking with the opposite sex.

HOWEVER - I just think where a lot of issue stem from is girls love to play the victim and "misery loves company"

I'm sorry if I don't have much pity for girls who play that card. I went to high school in a town of 2500 people as a female. I never let my transition handicap me or allow others to define who I was. I honestly think girls who transition older have a harder perspective on social dating and differentiating why men act differently in a "escort" setting than they would outside it. Since a lot of sex workers turn to it to afford the expenses of transition. This typically will be most of their social interaction and relationship with men for most of their transition. Which of course gives them a miscued look at things. This is why I suggest counseling..

I also apologize if I have understanding and empathy for what a man goes through when he dates a transsexual openly. Why do I have that empathy? Because I remember how it was the first day I transitioned. I remember the family arguments and trials I had. I remember when my father three months later called me his "little princess and I always was". I remember when kids in school after a year of teasing my freshman year started to come around. I remember how hard it was grasping for my identity after my mother died. I remember every tid bit and I remember feeling grateful how my life turned out in many ways. Still to this day I'm grateful how easy I have honestly had it. It's why I became a transgender activist in the first place. What the problem is girls forget so easily what it was like to take their first steps.

You usually see the change somewhere around the time a girl gets implants or she becomes "beautiful" or passable. However somehow those trials of sadness through her transition are always in the back of her head, and she in turns acts out. By degrading others the way she may of been degraded. It lifts her up.

She also feels a sense of "I'm so hot" I can degrade this guy and he still wants me. It's a way of power. As you will see many girls in this thread reassure themselves of their beauty and how passable they are by the men they date. So even though many have a bad view of men, they still base their passability on the men they date.

Less on if they can walk down the street, be treated like normal in any public setting. Including going in a girls locker room say in a public gym and having no one think the wiser. All those things that any transsexual woman should be grateful for, they aren't. So many transsexual women who aren't passable would kill to have that blessing, so if I don't have pity for a lot of the girls on this board and girls from the adult world you will just have to forgive me.

I feel many ALLOW how they are treated.

I feel many enable men to treat us with disrespect, instead of educating them, they argue and demean them. Which doesn't bring the good out in anyone.

It saddens me when I see friend after friend who finds a great guy, but oh no something in his past puts him on the chopping block. Whether it be he slept with another trans or dated one or slept around figuring out what they want.

Here's a news flash..when people are trying to figure out their sexuality..they SLEEP AROUND A LOT. Especially when it goes from being straight to something alternative. Because SEX plays such a vital role on how one identifies themselves.

There are cases when someone feels they are gay, but do not enjoy sex with men. They surprisingly enjoy sex with women. But in this case the male still feels he is a gay man.

I just think being a trans woman and being around trans women MANY are their own worst enemy not only in life partner relationships but friendships in general.

It's where a lot of the cattiness, backstabbing, hating on one another' looks all stem from, and it's why when a girl who is farther down the line in her transition will look down on another transsexual who isn't. Because they need that sense of validation and power, to feed their own hole and ego..

Do you understand what I am saying now Grim?

[Nicole Dupre]

Grim I found almost every post you made as a way to score brownie points..kudos

Yeah maybe I wanted prince charming in high school, like every female does..especially when I used to watch Sleeping Beauty on repeat..

But you grow out of it typically in college and through dating error and mistakes..social networking with the opposite sex.

HOWEVER - I just think where a lot of issue stem from is girls love to play the victim and "misery loves company"

I'm sorry if I don't have much pity for girls who play that card. I went to high school in a town of 2500 people as a female. I never let my transition handicap me or allow others to define who I was. I honestly think girls who transition older have a harder perspective on social dating and differentiating why men act differently in a "escort" setting than they would outside it. Since a lot of sex workers turn to it to afford the expenses of transition. This typically will be most of their social interaction and relationship with men for most of their transition. Which of course gives them a miscued look at things. This is why I suggest counseling..

I also apologize if I have understanding and empathy for what a man goes through when he dates a transsexual openly. Why do I have that empathy? Because I remember how it was the first day I transitioned. I remember the family arguments and trials I had. I remember when my father three months later called me his "little princess and I always was". I remember when kids in school after a year of teasing my freshman year started to come around. I remember how hard it was grasping for my identity after my mother died. I remember every tid bit and I remember feeling grateful how my life turned out in many ways. Still to this day I'm grateful how easy I have honestly had it. It's why I became a transgender activist in the first place. What the problem is girls forget so easily what it was like to take their first steps.

You usually see the change somewhere around the time a girl gets implants or she becomes "beautiful" or passable. However somehow those trials of sadness through her transition are always in the back of her head, and she in turns acts out. By degrading others the way she may of been degraded. It lifts her up.

She also feels a sense of "I'm so hot" I can degrade this guy and he still wants me. It's a way of power. As you will see many girls in this thread reassure themselves of their beauty and how passable they are by the men they date. So even though many have a bad view of men, they still base their passability on the men they date.

Less on if they can walk down the street, be treated like normal in any public setting. Including going in a girls locker room say in a public gym and having no one think the wiser. All those things that any transsexual woman should be grateful for, they aren't. So many transsexual women who aren't passable would kill to have that blessing, so if I don't have pity for a lot of the girls on this board and girls from the adult world you will just have to forgive me.

I feel many ALLOW how they are treated.

I feel many enable men to treat us with disrespect, instead of educating them, they argue and demean them. Which doesn't bring the good out in anyone.

It saddens me when I see friend after friend who finds a great guy, but oh no something in his past puts him on the chopping block. Whether it be he slept with another trans or dated one or slept around figuring out what they want.

Here's a news flash..when people are trying to figure out their sexuality..they SLEEP AROUND A LOT. Especially when it goes from being straight to something alternative. Because SEX plays such a vital role on how one identifies themselves.

There are cases when someone feels they are gay, but do not enjoy sex with men. They surprisingly enjoy sex with women. But in this case the male still feels he is a gay man.

I just think being a trans woman and being around trans women MANY are their own worst enemy not only in life partner relationships but friendships in general.

It's where a lot of the cattiness, backstabbing, hating on one another' looks all stem from, and it's why when a girl who is farther down the line in her transition will look down on another transsexual who isn't. Because they need that sense of validation and power, to feed their own hole and ego..

Do you understand what I am saying now Grim?
Kelly, I understand "misery loves company", but that doesn't mean when chasers are "pissing on my back" you can tell me that it's "raining". It's not that simple. I often date VERY REGULAR guys; guys who are mechanics, work as chef's, laborers, etc. I like down to earth guys. Not only are they often in better shape and gorgeous, but THOSE guys actually deserve a chance to be educated. Not the guy looking for any free dick from any gender in any city he finds himself in. Those guys are dogs. They're dogs to GGs, they're dogs to twink boys, and they're dogs to us. Stop protecting them as a blanket policy. It's not as black and white as you're making it sound and you know it. Sure. There are jaded women and jaded transwomen. But are you going to honestly pitch this speech to the guys on HungAngels? lol Where there's a 50/50 chance you're talking to a bunch of dogs and closet cases? lol I know you're not that gullible, Kelly. lol

[EvonRose]

Kelly, I understand "misery loves company", but that doesn't mean when chasers are "pissing on my back" you can tell me that it's "raining". It's not that simple. I often date VERY REGULAR guys; guys who are mechanics, work as chef's, laborers, etc. I like down to earth guys. Not only are they often in better shape and gorgeous, but THOSE guys actually deserve a chance to be educated. Not the guy looking for any free dick from any gender in any city he finds himself in. Those guys are dogs. They're dogs to GGs, they're dogs to twink boys, and they're dogs to us. Stop protecting them as a blanket policy. It's not as black and white as you're making it sound and you know it. Sure. There are jaded women and jaded transwomen. But are you going to honestly pitch this speech to the guys on HungAngels? lol Where there's a 50/50 chance you're talking to a bunch of dogs and closet cases? lol I know you're not that gullible, Kelly. lol

She might be... I mean she did state she was kinda closed of and lived in a picket white fence.... Kinda...

Maybe that's why we are not agreeing because i see the real world, and she's been sheltered... Not a bad thing.

I mean she states something about transitioning like it's easy for anyone... her truth is not my truth...

Physically I had no issue changing... I didn't need to get face surgery to look more feminine, or to get body surgery to achieve that I have achieved full feminization naturally... So i had it easy, however family life was difficult that changed many aspect of my life as well... So we have different struggles but very similar, so you can't say just because your family life was hard, doesn't mean you become jaded or cold just by avoiding chasers... that's quite ignorant.

[allurstouse]

I feel like I'm so superior with a bunch of little brains...

I can't argue with people who think gender dysphoria as a sexuality...

Sexuality is the attraction of the same or opposite gender or the non attraction.

Transexuality is a gender as is male or female..

Within this gender, there is an umbrella of sexuality...

You wiki links shows nothing about transsexuality, because we mtf are with the female group.

I am a transexual mtf making me hetero/curious female therefore, a man attracted to me would be heterosexual or bisexual man or bisexual or lesbian female...

How can you guys not know this? I am so appalled by the stupidity of many people here. Yet they argue about something that is not even related..

i am not surprised. Assumption as fact is the root of most prejudice in the world. Intellectual curiousity is a trait most don't aspire to because it means challanging ones own beliefs and sometimes changing them. It isn't stupidity imo it's a disinterest in learning and willed ignorance. Some people prefer the safety of ignorance over the potential cognitive dissonance that comes with learning their views are wrong.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Kelly, I understand "misery loves company", but that doesn't mean when chasers are "pissing on my back" you can tell me that it's "raining". It's not that simple. I often date VERY REGULAR guys; guys who are mechanics, work as chef's, laborers, etc. I like down to earth guys. Not only are they often in better shape and gorgeous, but THOSE guys actually deserve a chance to be educated. Not the guy looking for any free dick from any gender in any city he finds himself in. Those guys are dogs. They're dogs to GGs, they're dogs to twink boys, and they're dogs to us. Stop protecting them as a blanket policy. It's not as black and white as you're making it sound and you know it. Sure. There are jaded women and jaded transwomen. But are you going to honestly pitch this speech to the guys on HungAngels? lol Where there's a 50/50 chance you're talking to a bunch of dogs and closet cases? lol I know you're not that gullible, Kelly. lol
I actually wasn't speaking of you Nicole.

I feel from talking to you off here you have a strong sense of self and use the board as playground like I admitted to doing.

And I am by no means protecting every man on here..there are quit a few I wont name..that deserve that term Chaser and deserve a dunce cap for how some how of them act.

But I feel a majority aren't that bad as they are made out to be.

And some when they are disrespected by a trans-girl react and then that causes other girls to react and then the captain save-a-hos react for brownie points...

Then those men in turn act like assholes for the rest of their time here, because they are on the defense..

And this goes for real life too..you know some girls just have a smart ass mouth..which get them into trouble and put men off..

[EvonRose]

i am not surprised. Assumption as fact is the root of most prejudice in the world. Intellectual curiousity is a trait most don't aspire to because it means challanging ones own beliefs and sometimes changing them. It isn't stupidity imo it's a disinterest in learning and willed ignorance. Some people prefer the safety of ignorance over the potential cognitive dissonance that comes with learning their views are wrong.

What I stated is not a view it's scientific...

It's better to have some sort of foothold than to make up your own unprofessional labels, this is why any people here are confused...

There is nothing wrong with sexuality..

But to say gender is a sexuality is not a fact... And and it is a scientific fact. Proven... No matter how much some like to change that, what comes up comes down... It's the truth deal with it.

There is no prejudice in my view, I embrace all sexual preference, it is the people themselves who don't embrace their sexuality and they try to make up their own identity... That confuses people.

[KittyPride]

Grim I found almost every post you made as a way to score brownie points..kudos

Yeah maybe I wanted prince charming in high school, like every female does..especially when I used to watch Sleeping Beauty on repeat..

But you grow out of it typically in college and through dating error and mistakes..social networking with the opposite sex.

HOWEVER - I just think where a lot of issue stem from is girls love to play the victim and "misery loves company"

I'm sorry if I don't have much pity for girls who play that card. I went to high school in a town of 2500 people as a female. I never let my transition handicap me or allow others to define who I was. I honestly think girls who transition older have a harder perspective on social dating and differentiating why men act differently in a "escort" setting than they would outside it. Since a lot of sex workers turn to it to afford the expenses of transition. This typically will be most of their social interaction and relationship with men for most of their transition. Which of course gives them a miscued look at things. This is why I suggest counseling..

I also apologize if I have understanding and empathy for what a man goes through when he dates a transsexual openly. Why do I have that empathy? Because I remember how it was the first day I transitioned. I remember the family arguments and trials I had. I remember when my father three months later called me his "little princess and I always was". I remember when kids in school after a year of teasing my freshman year started to come around. I remember how hard it was grasping for my identity after my mother died. I remember every tid bit and I remember feeling grateful how my life turned out in many ways. Still to this day I'm grateful how easy I have honestly had it. It's why I became a transgender activist in the first place. What the problem is girls forget so easily what it was like to take their first steps.

You usually see the change somewhere around the time a girl gets implants or she becomes "beautiful" or passable. However somehow those trials of sadness through her transition are always in the back of her head, and she in turns acts out. By degrading others the way she may of been degraded. It lifts her up.

She also feels a sense of "I'm so hot" I can degrade this guy and he still wants me. It's a way of power. As you will see many girls in this thread reassure themselves of their beauty and how passable they are by the men they date. So even though many have a bad view of men, they still base their passability on the men they date.

Less on if they can walk down the street, be treated like normal in any public setting. Including going in a girls locker room say in a public gym and having no one think the wiser. All those things that any transsexual woman should be grateful for, they aren't. So many transsexual women who aren't passable would kill to have that blessing, so if I don't have pity for a lot of the girls on this board and girls from the adult world you will just have to forgive me.

I feel many ALLOW how they are treated.

I feel many enable men to treat us with disrespect, instead of educating them, they argue and demean them. Which doesn't bring the good out in anyone.

It saddens me when I see friend after friend who finds a great guy, but oh no something in his past puts him on the chopping block. Whether it be he slept with another trans or dated one or slept around figuring out what they want.

Here's a news flash..when people are trying to figure out their sexuality..they SLEEP AROUND A LOT. Especially when it goes from being straight to something alternative. Because SEX plays such a vital role on how one identifies themselves.

There are cases when someone feels they are gay, but do not enjoy sex with men. They surprisingly enjoy sex with women. But in this case the male still feels he is a gay man.

I just think being a trans woman and being around trans women MANY are their own worst enemy not only in life partner relationships but friendships in general.

It's where a lot of the cattiness, backstabbing, hating on one another' looks all stem from, and it's why when a girl who is farther down the line in her transition will look down on another transsexual who isn't. Because they need that sense of validation and power, to feed their own hole and ego..

Do you understand what I am saying now Grim?

Gee Kelly that are some awefull generalisations you are making...

Anyway....i dont recognise myself in it at all....except for maybe that you are right my pasts haunts me...but in a good way...or maybe bad who can tell...anyway i am not lusting for power over men...or feeding my ego etc...
I guess i lost a lot of that ego long ago...
I am not proud of my looks...i know looks are superficial...
When i lived as a boy i was the same person on the inside...so if anyone gives me a compliment...it falls back into the history...its not "received" i cant catch compliments easely coZ always in the back of my head are the menories of how i was treated before...

I find no pleasure in insulting men....i just want the one im with to be respectfull towards my femininity....

Also im very sensitive...so all that ego talk and fighting is really not for me...but i know how to defend myself.

[allurstouse]

What I stated is not a view it's scientific...

It's better to have some sort of foothold than to make up your own unprofessional labels, this is why any people here are confused...

There is nothing wrong with sexuality..

But to say gender is a sexuality is not a fact... And and it is a scientific fact. Proven... No matter how much some like to change that, what comes up comes down... It's the truth deal with it.

actually I was agreeing with you lol. I am familar with the difference between sexuality and gender because i was curious enough to learn and challenge my assumptions.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Gee Kelly that are some awefull generalisations you are making...

Anyway....i dont recognise myself in it at all....except for maybe that you are right my pasts haunts me...but in a good way...or maybe bad who can tell...anyway i am not lusting for power over men...or feeding my ego etc...
I guess i lost a lot of that ego long ago...
I am not proud of my looks...i know looks are superficial...
When i lived as a boy i was the same person on the inside...so if anyone gives me a compliment...it falls back into the history...its not "received" i cant catch compliments easely coZ always in the back of my head are the menories of how i was treated before...

I find no pleasure in insulting men....i just want the one im with to be respectfull towards my femininity....

Also im very sensitive...so all that ego talk and fighting is really not for me...but i know how to defend myself.It would only generalizing if I said ALL or every last one of us..

I am saying it's common for transsexuals in the adult world to feel or act this way..

Many do...many are right now..many will continue acting this way...

And girls that keep denying this..drive me nuts..

"Oh I don't do that.."

Well no one said you did that, but many do..

and for you to act like it doesn't go on..

is like acting like the Holocaust never happened...

[EvonRose]

actually I was agreeing with you lol. I am familar with the difference between sexuality and gender because i was curious enough to learn and challenge my assumptions.

Oh yeah i know, i was backhanding the guys we are talking about.. hehe

[KittyPride]

It would only generalizing if I said ALL or every last one of us..

I am saying it's common for transsexuals in the adult world to feel or act this way..

Many do...many are right now..many will continue acting this way...

And girls that keep denying this..drive me nuts..

"Oh I don't do that.."

Well no one said you did that, but many do..

and for you to act like it doesn't go on..

is like acting like the Holocaust never happened...


You call that a holocaust?
Well I think a lot of Tgirls deserve chasers because of their masculine behavior... and a lot of chasers deserve those Tgirls coz they are after transwoman that are half men anyway...

I know a lot of transwoman dont live in reality...
Ive talked to some that claimed they slept with men who did not notice at all they were TS... while I could obviously see it... let alone that men would not sense it...

Also a lot of them are in some sorth of denial that they are TS.
I know a girl that wanted to show her new date to a transgirlfriend of hers... and introduce him as "finally found a guy that isnt a chaser or cockhound" Turned out that he dated with her pre op girlfriend before and he especially like the cock lol
But my girlfriend did not tell her... not to dissapoint her... or betray the guy.

I am totally at ease with guys that have been with TS before... even TV's no problem!!! Its actually a plus cause you know they wont go mental after sex with strange feelings of guilt or go into a sexual identity crisis.

To be honest I really dont like men that do that. lol
I have been able to avoid it... but I think its horrible. happened to a lot of Tgirlfriends of mine. I kept my ears open and listened very carefully to them and tried to make sure it never happened to me.

I was warned for the cockhounds long before I ever dated fortunately lol.
I remember at first being so dissapointed to hear it and even kind of upset. But I had to take this for real.

Good thing that are guys out there that match with me too.

Also you are right about dating heterosexual men. Its not that easy. Especially for him... cause he has to give up his heterosexual identity to the outside world. It actually makes ME feel very bad for those guys.

Its unfair for them also.

[allurstouse]

I am twice as old as some of you and really respect your grasp on your identitys at your age. The conversation in the thread has been pretty introspective and loaded with insight. Most 20 or 25 yr olds don't have a clear sense of themselves as adults. I don't mean gender or even sexuality. I mean your view of your core selves as adults. Most 20 somethings lack that. Maybe it's the introspection your genetic mismatch with gender must of led to? Anyway just a compliment from the fairly ignorant. I thought it worth noting it's a trait that repeats itself over and over in the thread you all share that most 20 somethings don't have and it makes their lives a bit harder.

I actually wish I lived in a bigger city to just meet and get to know some of you. Your life histories, points of view, experiences are mostly not a shared experience for me and without seeming creepy I have learned a lot since I came here. Anyone whose daily life consists of speaking truth to power (society) and standing for that truth http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1592 is imo is worth listening to and getting to know other than sexually

[mathematics1900]

Well duh you have never heard of me, I don't do porn, and I remain under the radar because of my family being in public eye.

Live in a country your whole life, then move to a cold weather.
http://www.ayushveda.com/health/bedwetting.htm

scroll trough emotional and environmental changes....

Take time to educate yourself before sounding dumb.

Your not trying to understand anyone. Actually by me bringing up the bed wetting problem and then you make me feel like it's some bad thing to further my embarrassment only shows me the true intent of you even conversing with me...

And no i will not share my personal hobbies, you want to find something wrong with my hobbies as well? Not gonna happen, totally lost my trust.

Embarrass you, how on earth am I going to embarrass a secure and confident woman like yourself over the internet? I have lived in a hot country my whole life and moved to a cold climate and the bed wetting didn't happen to me, am I dumb because I was uninformed? That is a pretty bold statement coming from someone with constant grammatical errors in every post. You are even too insecure to share your hobbies for fear that I might criticize them? It is your choice whether or not you want to trust people, and it is obvious you have some very deep trust issues. I am trying to understand and even if you refuse to answers questions, I'll simply keep reading your posts until I have gathered enough information so that I can ask even more informed questions. This is going to make you uncomfortable, but that is the only way to grow.

[mathematics1900]

Grim I found almost every post you made as a way to score brownie points..kudos
.....
Do you understand what I am saying now Grim?

Blew my mind.


Kelly, I understand "misery loves company", but that doesn't mean when chasers are "pissing on my back" you can tell me that it's "raining". It's not that simple. I often date VERY REGULAR guys; guys who are mechanics, work as chef's, laborers, etc. I like down to earth guys. Not only are they often in better shape and gorgeous, but THOSE guys actually deserve a chance to be educated. Not the guy looking for any free dick from any gender in any city he finds himself in. Those guys are dogs. They're dogs to GGs, they're dogs to twink boys, and they're dogs to us. Stop protecting them as a blanket policy. It's not as black and white as you're making it sound and you know it. Sure. There are jaded women and jaded transwomen. But are you going to honestly pitch this speech to the guys on HungAngels? lol Where there's a 50/50 chance you're talking to a bunch of dogs and closet cases? lol I know you're not that gullible, Kelly. lol

Now you have beef with dogs and closet cases? Lol, chasers are pissing on your back? Then you drop them, what is the big deal? Why do you get into such a tear about these men, they are individuals, drop them as such. If the guy isn't respecting you and treating you how you want to be treated, then stop talking to him. It is that simple!

[EvonRose]

Embarrass you, how on earth am I going to embarrass a secure and confident woman like yourself over the internet? I have lived in a hot country my whole life and moved to a cold climate and the bed wetting didn't happen to me, am I dumb because I was uninformed? That is a pretty bold statement coming from someone with constant grammatical errors in every post. You are even too insecure to share your hobbies for fear that I might criticize them? It is your choice whether or not you want to trust people, and it is obvious you have some very deep trust issues. I am trying to understand and even if you refuse to answers questions, I'll simply keep reading your posts until I have gathered enough information so that I can ask even more informed questions. This is going to make you uncomfortable, but that is the only way to grow.

Your dumb for speaking against my bed wetting problem as a child without proper knowledge... Obviously I gave you an article about it it's actually not as uncommon you made it seem...

It's a porn forum I don't proof read what I type because i rather type and get it down with, you get my point so what's the issue? Now if we were in school that I happen to be 3.97 GPA... I would proof read it for fear of grading or of I was typing up something important for...

If your only dig at me is the grammatical error, you obviously ran out of things to say... Do better.

[allurstouse]

Your dumb for speaking against my bed wetting problem as a child without proper knowledge... Obviously I gave you an article about it it's actually not as uncommon you made it seem...

It's a porn forum I don't proof read what I type because i rather type and get it down with, you get my point so what's the issue? Now if we were in school that I happen to be 3.97 GPA... I would proof read it for fear of grading or of I was typing up something important for...

If your only dig at me is the grammatical error, you obviously ran out of things to say... Do better.

When the attack is on grammar and punctuation you really don't need to respond. it means you won the argument and someone is just tossing red herrings and trying to create straw men to escape admitting it

[mathematics1900]

Your dumb for speaking against my bed wetting problem as a child without proper knowledge... Obviously I gave you an article about it it's actually not as uncommon you made it seem...

It's a porn forum I don't proof read what I type because i rather type and get it down with, you get my point so what's the issue? Now if we were in school that I happen to be 3.97 GPA... I would proof read it for fear of grading or of I was typing up something important for...

If your only dig at me is the grammatical error, you obviously ran out of things to say... Do better.

A child without proper knowledge? Do you think the majority of the population spends time reading on the extensive amounts of possibilities that would cause bed wetting? You are getting more and more delusional as this progresses. Yes, it is pretty uncommon otherwise you wouldn't of had to inform me about it. Ahhh, a porn forum, where sounding intelligent doesn't matter if you've got tits? I see, I just misunderstood what you're about and now I'm getting a better picture, no worries, we'll get there together Evon.


When the attack is on grammar and punctuation you really don't need to respond. it means you won the argument and someone is just tossing red herrings and trying to create straw men to escape admitting it

Lol, right...it isn't as if someone sounds ridiculous calling me stupid when their literacy is worse than my 10 year old niece.

[EvonRose]

A child without proper knowledge? Do you think the majority of the population spends time reading on the extensive amounts of possibilities that would cause bed wetting? You are getting more and more delusional as this progresses. Yes, it is pretty uncommon otherwise you wouldn't of had to inform me about it. Ahhh, a porn forum, where sounding intelligent doesn't matter if you've got tits? I see, I just misunderstood what you're about and now I'm getting a better picture, no worries, we'll get there together Evon.



Lol, right...it isn't as if someone sounds ridiculous calling me stupid when their literacy is worse than my 10 year old niece.


You really don't think a child who had suffered a civil war resulting in a bullet flying trough her bed and almost getting kidnapped, then moving to the US in an uncommon scary environment, not to mention the 50 degree drop in temperature that she's use to living had nothing to do with her wetting her bed at night?

I am a woman of facts at leas I'm smart enough to read up on something than someone who blabs about bullshit...

Well sorry english isn't everyone's 1st language ass!

[mathematics1900]

You really don't think a child who had suffered a cicil war resulting in a bullet flying trough her bed then moving to the us in an uncommon scary environment, not to mention the 50 degree drop in temperature that she's use to living had nothing to do with her wetting her bed at night?

I am a woman of facts at leas I'm smart enough to read up on something than someone who blabs about bullshit...

Well sorry english isn't everyone's 1st language ass!

English isn't my first language either, but I am guessing my first language made it easier for me to transition over to English as opposed to what you're first language was...

Thank you!!! Evon, did you see what just happened there? You shared something personal with me, you told me that you were in a civil war and that you were scared and anxious about your new environment. Now it is completely possible that the weather had a lot to do with the bed wetting, but I was just wondering if there was anything there, and there was! I am so happy you shared with me, that is all I wanted. :-)

[inSD]

hey why dont you say what you really think, dont be shy!!! ;)

Just a theory and only pertains to the girls that get all bitchy about guys who enjoy something extra.

[inSD]

And theories like that are what make you the retarded nobody that you are.

says the tranny with the Pep-BOy tattoo.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I tend to agree with Evon on the writing bit...

My forum writing is a lot different than my article/blog writings or when I am writing something important...

I tend to slack off a lot..and use a lot of these .................

And space things

And do other things so it's faster to type and read....

Oh and I forgot this - I do that a lot lol

[Tyler___Durden]

Another view (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4)




Huge academic peer reservations, but I thought it would be fun to throw into the mix!

[ed_jaxon]

Don't worry Evon

I wet my pants too.

all the cool kids wet their pants

[buttslinger]

Are we teasing Evon again???

[muh_muh]

But what about a guy that dates a masculine looking girl...but because the girl has a vagina he is straight?

When another guy falls for a feminine TS he must be bisexual...

it is not about looks it is about context
this is really male psychology 101 and youd know this if you had ever heard men talk about transsexuals with other men
a truely exclusively heterosexual male will never be into someone who has been a man may still have male genitals and will forever be genetically male no matter how beautiful and feminine she might look
the thought that he is effectively having sex with a man will forever be a turn off


Oh and I forgot this - I do that a lot lol

well at least youve beaten the habit of using "lol" for punctuation ... wait no spoke too soon

[EvonRose]

People are mean to me because they're just jealous...

I got a bigger cock than most of you so shut up!

[dabaldone]

You call that a holocaust?
Well I think a lot of Tgirls deserve chasers because of their masculine behavior... and a lot of chasers deserve those Tgirls coz they are after transwoman that are half men anyway...

I know a lot of transwoman dont live in reality...
Ive talked to some that claimed they slept with men who did not notice at all they were TS... while I could obviously see it... let alone that men would not sense it...

Also a lot of them are in some sorth of denial that they are TS.
I know a girl that wanted to show her new date to a transgirlfriend of hers... and introduce him as "finally found a guy that isnt a chaser or cockhound" Turned out that he dated with her pre op girlfriend before and he especially like the cock lol
But my girlfriend did not tell her... not to dissapoint her... or betray the guy.

I am totally at ease with guys that have been with TS before... even TV's no problem!!! Its actually a plus cause you know they wont go mental after sex with strange feelings of guilt or go into a sexual identity crisis.

To be honest I really dont like men that do that. lol
I have been able to avoid it... but I think its horrible. happened to a lot of Tgirlfriends of mine. I kept my ears open and listened very carefully to them and tried to make sure it never happened to me.

I was warned for the cockhounds long before I ever dated fortunately lol.
I remember at first being so dissapointed to hear it and even kind of upset. But I had to take this for real.

Good thing that are guys out there that match with me too.

Also you are right about dating heterosexual men. Its not that easy. Especially for him... cause he has to give up his heterosexual identity to the outside world. It actually makes ME feel very bad for those guys.

Its unfair for them also.

Kitty, great post! I've never understood the TW with the "Prince Charming" mentality, thinking their going to meet a man who has no experience with TW and will bet totally ok with it. The questions of his own sexuality are surely going to come out. The shame, anger and guilt will cause all kinds of crazy behavior.

As far as trans-women who live in denial, those who are ashamed or get angry because you know they are trans and get angry about it - I have zero tolerance with them. If a TW isn't ok with herself; how the hell is she going to be ok with me being into her. SMH

[bluesoul]

People are mean to me because they're just jealous...

it's scary to think this was the only reason you could think of. you don't even think there is a chance that maybe they don't agree with you, or perhaps you could be wrong about something?

[EvonRose]

it's scary to think this was the only reason you could think of. you don't even think there is a chance that maybe they don't agree with you, or perhaps you could be wrong about something?

Selective quoting?

I'm sure your more mature than than little pion...

[mathematics1900]

People are mean to me because they're just jealous...

I got a bigger cock than most of you so shut up!
__________________

Aren't you of Asian decent? By the numbers the chance of you having a bigger cock than most isn't likely.

[EvonRose]

Aren't you of Asian decent? By the numbers the chance of you having a bigger cock than most isn't likely.

Well guess what, people have vouched for me... I have reviews

Racist... lol.. Im a quarter pacific islander, Filipinos are not necessarily asians...

[buttslinger]

Amy Irving got a 100 million dollar divorce settlement from Steven Spielberg for NOT getting along!!! Now that's TALENT!!

[EvonRose]

Amy Irving got a 100 million dollar divorce settlement from Steven Spielberg for NOT getting along!!! Now that's TALENT!!

And she deserves it, you don't know if Steven Spielberg was an ass to her...

[bluesoul]

Selective quoting?

I'm sure your more mature than than little pion...

i didn't quote the other part of your sentence for 2 reasons:

1). it didn't support your earlier statement and
2). seemed like a separate thought

also i don't see how my treatment of your entire quote would change things to support your current claim.

[EvonRose]

i didn't quote the other part of your sentence for 2 reasons:

1). it didn't support your earlier statement and
2). seemed like a separate thought

also i don't see how my treatment of your entire quote would change things to support your current claim.

it was a sarcastic joke asshole!

[mathematics1900]

Well guess what, people have vouched for me... I have reviews

Racist... lol.. Im a quarter pacific islander, Filipinos are not necessarily asians...
__________________

Interesting, you're Filipino! You are right since the Philippines were a colony of Spain. One of my favorite professors was from the Philippines and the great thing about it was that I already knew Spanish and we could speak to each other, it was pretty interesting. Also my sister is pretty obsessed with Pacific Island men, like The Rock, lol.

[bluesoul]

it was a sarcastic joke asshole!

there's no need to call me names because your joke isn't funny :(

[EvonRose]

there's no need to call me names because your joke isn't funny :(

In all fairness you are being an ass...

[bluesoul]

In all fairness you are being an ass...

how, by suggesting you could be wrong about something? :)

[EvonRose]

how, by suggesting you could be wrong about something? :)

No I'm always right... Wrong about what bitch?

[bluesoul]

Wrong about what bitch?

i'd tell you, but i don't want you to wet your bed tonight :dancing:

[EvonRose]

i'd tell you, but i don't want you to wet your bed tonight :dancing:

Very mature, my ass is still better than your face.:dancing:

BTW I get paid to pee on people... so joke is on you.

[bluesoul]

Very mature, my ass is still better than your face.:dancing:

BTW I get paid to pee on people... so joke is on you.

not sure how you came about that conclusion, but for your sake

http://isanyoneup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/feu8.gif

[EvonRose]

not sure how you came about that conclusion, but for your sake

http://isanyoneup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/feu8.gif

The truth hurts? lol...

[bluesoul]

Very mature, my ass is still better than your face.:dancing:

BTW I get paid to pee on people... so joke is on you.

not sure how you came about that conclusion, but for your sake

http://isanyoneup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/feu8.gif

p.s. i said "wet your bed" not pee on someone.

[mathematics1900]

Dude, if you don't get anything she is saying you're an idiot, you were going to cause her to wet her bed, most of her clients lay in her bed, some of her clients pay to be peed on, she wets the bed the client is in it she gets paid extra. What the hell was so hard to put together? Lord, so many shattered egos on this forum.

[bluesoul]

Dude, if you don't get anything she is saying you're an idiot, you were going to cause her to wet her bed, most of her clients lay in her bed, some of her clients pay to be peed on, she wets the bed the client is in it she gets paid extra. What the hell was so hard to put together? Lord, so many shattered egos on this forum.

so she wets the bed on purpose and it has nothing to do with the bullshit story about being from a more temperate country?


http://isanyoneup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/price6.gif

[mathematics1900]

so she wets the bed on purpose and it has nothing to do with the bullshit story about being from a more temperate country?

Is that the best logic you can present? She was joking, why are you so worked up? Lol, go away already man you're embarrassing yourself.

[EvonRose]

so she wets the bed on purpose and it has nothing to do with the bullshit story about being from a more temperate country?


http://isanyoneup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/price6.gif

it's not a story I am from another country....

[bluesoul]

Is that the best logic you can present? She was joking, why are you so worked up? Lol, go away already man you're embarrassing yourself.

what makes you think i'm worked up? :confused:

[EvonRose]

what makes you think i'm worked up? :confused:

Really? your going off on a lighthearted joke, for absolutely no reason mofo...

So obviously theres an underlying hatred you have towards me...

I'm so sorry your dad touched you, but you need to talk to a doctor as oppose to taking it out on innocent people like me.

[mathematics1900]

what makes you think i'm worked up?

You're posting sarcastic gifs of neil patrick harris, yeah dude, you're worked up.

[bluesoul]

I'm so sorry your dad touched you, but you need to talk to a doctor as oppose to taking it out on innocent people like me.

thanks for the well wishes :)

[EvonRose]

thanks for the well wishes :)

Oh no problem... It must be hard...

[mathematics1900]

Evon, girl...you are not innocent!

[GrimFusion]

Grim I found almost every post you made as a way to score brownie points..kudos

Yeah maybe I wanted prince charming in high school, like every female does..especially when I used to watch Sleeping Beauty on repeat..

But you grow out of it typically in college and through dating error and mistakes..social networking with the opposite sex.

HOWEVER - I just think where a lot of issue stem from is girls love to play the victim and "misery loves company"

I'm sorry if I don't have much pity for girls who play that card. I went to high school in a town of 2500 people as a female. I never let my transition handicap me or allow others to define who I was. I honestly think girls who transition older have a harder perspective on social dating and differentiating why men act differently in a "escort" setting than they would outside it. Since a lot of sex workers turn to it to afford the expenses of transition. This typically will be most of their social interaction and relationship with men for most of their transition. Which of course gives them a miscued look at things. This is why I suggest counseling..

I also apologize if I have understanding and empathy for what a man goes through when he dates a transsexual openly. Why do I have that empathy? Because I remember how it was the first day I transitioned. I remember the family arguments and trials I had. I remember when my father three months later called me his "little princess and I always was". I remember when kids in school after a year of teasing my freshman year started to come around. I remember how hard it was grasping for my identity after my mother died. I remember every tid bit and I remember feeling grateful how my life turned out in many ways. Still to this day I'm grateful how easy I have honestly had it. It's why I became a transgender activist in the first place. What the problem is girls forget so easily what it was like to take their first steps.

You usually see the change somewhere around the time a girl gets implants or she becomes "beautiful" or passable. However somehow those trials of sadness through her transition are always in the back of her head, and she in turns acts out. By degrading others the way she may of been degraded. It lifts her up.

She also feels a sense of "I'm so hot" I can degrade this guy and he still wants me. It's a way of power. As you will see many girls in this thread reassure themselves of their beauty and how passable they are by the men they date. So even though many have a bad view of men, they still base their passability on the men they date.

Less on if they can walk down the street, be treated like normal in any public setting. Including going in a girls locker room say in a public gym and having no one think the wiser. All those things that any transsexual woman should be grateful for, they aren't. So many transsexual women who aren't passable would kill to have that blessing, so if I don't have pity for a lot of the girls on this board and girls from the adult world you will just have to forgive me.

I feel many ALLOW how they are treated.

I feel many enable men to treat us with disrespect, instead of educating them, they argue and demean them. Which doesn't bring the good out in anyone.

It saddens me when I see friend after friend who finds a great guy, but oh no something in his past puts him on the chopping block. Whether it be he slept with another trans or dated one or slept around figuring out what they want.

Here's a news flash..when people are trying to figure out their sexuality..they SLEEP AROUND A LOT. Especially when it goes from being straight to something alternative. Because SEX plays such a vital role on how one identifies themselves.

There are cases when someone feels they are gay, but do not enjoy sex with men. They surprisingly enjoy sex with women. But in this case the male still feels he is a gay man.

I just think being a trans woman and being around trans women MANY are their own worst enemy not only in life partner relationships but friendships in general.

It's where a lot of the cattiness, backstabbing, hating on one another' looks all stem from, and it's why when a girl who is farther down the line in her transition will look down on another transsexual who isn't. Because they need that sense of validation and power, to feed their own hole and ego..

Do you understand what I am saying now Grim?

I understood what you meant the first time. I think we're actually agreeing on a lot of stuff, but I went off on some weird tangent about HA specifically. I'm not denying that transgendered women generally have issues in relationships, especially if they get into escorting to support their transitions and then try dating. That's a crazy-ass lifestyle. My argument is that they have reasons neither of us totally understand because neither of us escorted (for any length of time... shhh! lol). I think it's understandable that they would mistreat good men they end up with. It's not right, especially when it's not the "defective boyfriend" but rather the girls own personal insecurities, a need to feel completely independent, and a fear of getting too close or personal that has them jumping through a series of shitty, short-lived relationships. It's not right, but it comes with the territory when your profession is getting used.

I know you're probably thinking "well, you're just considering escorts. That's not fair". You're right, and you may know better than I do, but I think there's a correlation between transsexual escorts and this type of behavior that doesn't exist in the same degree with girls who chose not to escort. The "I think I'm better than you" condescending attitude is human nature whenever anyone's self-image improves. Eventually that sense of entitlement wears off unless there are other underlying hang-ups.

My first post wasn't meant to demonize the guys around here. My only intention was to say that there's bull shit coming from both sides. It's not just a "Guys are all chasers" and "Tgirls are all so petty and insecure" deal. It's a "There are shitty people in both camps" issue. I've just noticed that in hanging around here since 2005, the majority of girls have a reason to be bitchy. The dudes? Not so much.

Lemme put it this way; despite the amount of ostrazation men face in introducing transgendered girlfriends to friends and family, if a dude just can't put up with the scrutiny, he still has the option to break up and go date a GG. Nearly instant normality. Do transgendered women have the same option? Just go right back to being a dude? Not really. It's not the same thing.

Guys that have been through two or three relationships with transsexuals know what they're getting themselves into. Assuming the first-timers are aware of the community, they hear about all that crap second-hand anyhow. It's not like we're completely blind-sided when we get dumped by a chick in the middle of a mental breakdown.

[Nicole Dupre]

You call that a holocaust?
Well I think a lot of Tgirls deserve chasers because of their masculine behavior... and a lot of chasers deserve those Tgirls coz they are after transwoman that are half men anyway...

I know a lot of transwoman dont live in reality...
Ive talked to some that claimed they slept with men who did not notice at all they were TS... while I could obviously see it... let alone that men would not sense it...

Also a lot of them are in some sorth of denial that they are TS.
I know a girl that wanted to show her new date to a transgirlfriend of hers... and introduce him as "finally found a guy that isnt a chaser or cockhound" Turned out that he dated with her pre op girlfriend before and he especially like the cock lol
But my girlfriend did not tell her... not to dissapoint her... or betray the guy.

I am totally at ease with guys that have been with TS before... even TV's no problem!!! Its actually a plus cause you know they wont go mental after sex with strange feelings of guilt or go into a sexual identity crisis.

To be honest I really dont like men that do that. lol
I have been able to avoid it... but I think its horrible. happened to a lot of Tgirlfriends of mine. I kept my ears open and listened very carefully to them and tried to make sure it never happened to me.

I was warned for the cockhounds long before I ever dated fortunately lol.
I remember at first being so dissapointed to hear it and even kind of upset. But I had to take this for real.

Good thing that are guys out there that match with me too.

Also you are right about dating heterosexual men. Its not that easy. Especially for him... cause he has to give up his heterosexual identity to the outside world. It actually makes ME feel very bad for those guys.

Its unfair for them also.
Oh, please. Fuck them and their precious straight sexuality status. Talk about little boys not growing the fuck up. NO ONE CARES WHO'S "GAY" or really knows for sure quite how "gay" they are. There's a homosexual male subculture and there are meat markets which surround it. You'd do yourself a huge favor if you stopped confusing sodomy and "being gay". It speaks volumes about how sexually repressed you are, and how you were raised to feel guilty and embarrassed about yourself and what's in between your legs.

And something about your personal history rings untrue. I can't put my finger on it, but that "hearing about the cockhounds, and then I experienced them" stuff sounds like bullshit. Your philosophies on everything you talk about don't sound like they're based in reality. I get the sense that you're a part time CD living in a daydream.

[EvonRose]

I understood what you meant the first time. I think we're actually agreeing on a lot of stuff, but I went off on some weird tangent about HA specifically. I'm not denying that transgendered women generally have issues in relationships, especially if they get into escorting to support their transitions and then try dating. That's a crazy-ass lifestyle. My argument is that they have reasons neither of us totally understand because neither of us escorted (for any length of time... shhh! lol). I think it's understandable that they would mistreat good men they end up with. It's not right, especially when it's not the "defective boyfriend" but rather the girls own personal insecurities, a need to feel completely independent, and a fear of getting too close or personal that has them jumping through a series of shitty, short-lived relationships. It's not right, but it comes with the territory when your profession is getting used.

I know you're probably thinking "well, you're just considering escorts. That's not fair". You're right, and you may know better than I do, but I think there's a correlation between transsexual escorts and this type of behavior that doesn't exist in the same degree with girls who chose not to escort. The "I think I'm better than you" condescending attitude is human nature whenever anyone's self-image improves. Eventually that sense of entitlement wears off unless there are other underlying hang-ups.

My first post wasn't meant to demonize the guys around here. My only intention was to say that there's bull shit coming from both sides. It's not just a "Guys are all chasers" and "Tgirls are all so petty and insecure" deal. It's a "There are shitty people in both camps" issue. I've just noticed that in hanging around here since 2005, the majority of girls have a reason to be bitchy. The dudes? Not so much.

Lemme put it this way; despite the amount of ostrazation men face in introducing transgendered girlfriends to friends and family, if a dude just can't put up with the scrutiny, he still has the option to break up and go date a GG. Nearly instant normality. Do transgendered women have the same option? Just go right back to being a dude? Not really. It's not the same thing.

Guys that have been through two or three relationships with transsexuals know what they're getting themselves into. Assuming the first-timers are aware of the community, they hear about all that crap second-hand anyhow. It's not like we're completely blind-sided when we get dumped by a chick in the middle of a mental breakdown.

Wow grim im impressed!

I agree with you and you hit it right on the nail...Good job! I wish I could kiss you but the computer is kind win the way.

[Nicole Dupre]

Wow grim im impressed!

I agree with you and you hit it right on the nail...Good job! I wish I could kiss you but the computer is kind win the way.
Yeah, that was a good post.

[KittyPride]

Oh, please. Fuck them and their precious straight sexuality status. Talk about little boys not growing the fuck up. NO ONE CARES WHO'S "GAY" or really knows for sure quite how "gay" they are. There's a homosexual male subculture and there are meat markets which surround it. You'd do yourself a huge favor if you stopped confusing sodomy and "being gay". It speaks volumes about how sexually repressed you are, and how you were raised to feel guilty and embarrassed about yourself and what's in between your legs.

Humm hummm not quite sure what you mean. I mean... terms like sodomy to me sound like they originated from sexual repression????? I mean; cmon??


And something about your personal history rings untrue. I can't put my finger on it, but that "hearing about the cockhounds, and then I experienced them" stuff sounds like bullshit. Your philosophies on everything you talk about don't sound like they're based in reality. I get the sense that you're a part time CD living in a daydream.

I did not experience cockhounds... IRL. I filtered them out when I started online dating. There were very few men left lol. Close to none actually. lol
Once you say you are a TS... all kinds of shady people come after you lol.

I had the luck of meeting a transgendered woman with long experience and she told me all about the men she encountered... and also the stories her girlfriends told her through the years and it turns out she was a 100% accurate... well almost.

Im glad I was prepared... I would have felt very dissapointed when a nice guy would hit one me... only to find out he wants to wear my lingery and feel my cock in his ass.

I actually really dont get it, that I am one of the few girls here upset about that lol

[EvonRose]

Actually I have to apologize for comparing men to dogs awhile ago... That wasn't fair...

Dogs are loyal...

haha

[KittyPride]

Actually I have to apologize for comparing men to dogs awhile ago... That wasn't fair...

Dogs are loyal...

haha

True I wish men were dogs :D lol

[Nicole Dupre]

Sodomy is any sexual penetration outside of penile/vaginal. And I know the origin of the word and I still don't care. Sodomy's more accurate than saying "gay". I'm a proud sodomist.

You should read Michel Foucault's The History of Sexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_Sexuality)

[GrimFusion]

Oh, please. Fuck them and their precious straight sexuality status. Talk about little boys not growing the fuck up. NO ONE CARES WHO'S "GAY" or really knows for sure quite how "gay" they are. There's a homosexual male subculture and there are meat markets which surround it. You'd do yourself a huge favor if you stopped confusing sodomy and "being gay". It speaks volumes about how sexually repressed you are, and how you were raised to feel guilty and embarrassed about yourself and what's in between your legs.

And something about your personal history rings untrue. I can't put my finger on it, but that "hearing about the cockhounds, and then I experienced them" stuff sounds like bullshit. Your philosophies on everything you talk about don't sound like they're based in reality. I get the sense that you're a part time CD living in a daydream.

Nice bait post.
Wouldn't it be kinda redundant if Kitty got all upset because you called her a crossdresser when you just got done claiming that dudes shouldn't get all worked up over petty labels? Oh, shit. I just spoiled it.

I agree with the first paragraph, though... kinda. There are people out in the world that have such a personal disdain for alternative sexuality that they're more than willing to meddle and cause problems. For guys that purposely seek out transsexuals, that's not a valid reason for a dude to claim he's 100% straight. That's just a big fuckin' lie. That's where your opinion and mine kinda part ways.

If a dude wants to be a dumb ass and claim he's 100% straight on a transsexual porn forum, I don't feel the need to call him out because intelligent posters can already see right though that veil. If that same dude gets a shot with a girl around here that's gullible enough to believe him, more power to the dude. At least he's getting laid, and I know which chick I probably want to avoid talking to.

I know I don't need to get into it, but fuck it. Personally, I'm secure in the idea that I have no fucking clue what my "determinable sexuality" is. I don't give a damn. If I could give less of a damn than that, I'd set it aside for the dipshits who think their opinions of my sexuality have an impact on me. If someone else's opinion of my sexuality is so negative they feel the need to explain it to me, I don't need them around. I don't get mad about it, I just don't get involved. Call me gay. It'll make me giggle.

[GrimFusion]

Sodomy is any sexual penetration outside of penile/vaginal. And I know the origin of the word and I still don't care. Sodomy's more accurate than saying "gay". I'm a proud sodomist.

You should read Michel Foucault's The History of Sexuality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_Sexuality)

I'm more content just calling it anal sex. I don't need to be reminded that one of my sexual interests is named after a city in ancient Canaan and the basis of a fucked up set of Bible passages that speak against the act of sodomy as a sin. It's kinda a buzz kill.

[EvonRose]

Sodomy wasn't not a sin, it was an abomination...

Ancient translation translated abomination to something uncommon, or unclean. Not sin.

[GrimFusion]

Sodomy wasn't not a sin, it was an abomination...

Ancient translation translated abomination to something uncommon, or unclean. Not sin.

I'm an atheist, so I'll just go ahead and assume you know what you're talking about because I can't say I know any better. Abomination or not, I just don't like to be reminded of the bible before butt-fucking. That's a little morose, but I think you catch my drift.

[EvonRose]

I'm an atheist, so I'll just go ahead and assume you know what you're talking about because I don't believe in sin. Abomination or not, I just don't like to be reminded of the bible before butt-fucking. That's a little morose, but I think you catch my drift.

Oh yeah, but abomination was a cultural thing, you don need to be religious.

Eating shellfish was an abomination because people didn't know how properly clean it and eat it...

Anal sex was something new and uncommon, they didn't have proper education on it like we do now... etc...

[GrimFusion]

Oh yeah, but abomination was a cultural thing, you don need to be religious.

Eating shellfish was an abomination because people didn't know how properly clean it and eat it...

Anal sex was something new and uncommon, they didn't have proper education on it like we do now... etc...
Aw, fuck it. Sodomy it is then. Who's down?

I'm amazed at how dead things get around here on Saturday nights. Why aren't you out and about?

[mathematics1900]

it comes with the territory when your profession is getting used.

It's not just a "Guys are all chasers" and "Tgirls are all so petty and insecure" deal. It's a "There are shitty people in both camps" issue.

Nearly instant normality.

Being used occurs in a lot more industries than the escorting business. Also, not every escort feels used, and even though you feel like that is what you are doing when you see one...using them for sex, not everybody feels the same way. Also I don't recall anyone stating that it is all one sides fault, I'm pretty sure as adults we all understand that every group has bad apples.


Nearly instant normality.

You should be making the box you live in larger sir, not smaller.

[BBaggins06]

Being used occurs in a lot more industries than the escorting business. Also, not every escort feels used, and even though you feel like that is what you are doing when you see one...using them for sex, not everybody feels the same way. Also I don't recall anyone stating that it is all one sides fault, I'm pretty sure as adults we all understand that every group has bad apples.



You should be making the box you live in larger sir, not smaller.

Excellent selective quoting of Grim to take everything out of context. You must work for NBC ...

[mathematics1900]

Excellent selective quoting of Grim to take everything out of context. You must work for NBC ...

I read this entire thread, and all his posts, taken out of context? Um no, first statement I quoted was referenced because he did state it isn't all one sides fault...which no one was really talking about, because we realize every group has bad apples.

His opinion about escorts being used wasn't taken out of context either, that is what I was lead to believe from his statements, that being an escort means you are being used. Now for the last statement I quoted, "Nearly instant normality.", ignoring the obvious grammatical blunder just the fact that he believes the idea of normality lets me know that yes, he is still living inside a box, a box that is much too small for his potential.

However if you were unable to make any of those connections, and simply thought I was making a baseless post, then you're dumb. Maybe you should go back to watching FOX news?

[BBaggins06]

I read this entire thread, and all his posts, taken out of context? Um no, first statement I quoted was referenced because he did state it isn't all one sides fault...which no one was really talking about, because we realize every group has bad apples.

His opinion about escorts being used wasn't taken out of context either, that is what I was lead to believe from his statements, that being an escort means you are being used. Now for the last statement I quoted, "Nearly instant normality.", ignoring the obvious grammatical blunder just the fact that he believes the idea of normality lets me know that yes, he is still living inside a box, a box that is much too small for his potential.

However if you were unable to make any of those connections, and simply thought I was making a baseless post, then you're dumb. Maybe you should go back to watching FOX news?

Maybe you should go back to using your original screen name, sock puppet.

[mathematics1900]

Maybe you should go back to using your original screen name, sock puppet.

I just debunked your accusation, shall I debunk this one too? You and I both know the accomplishments in your life are limited, do you really need to be disgraced on the internet on top of your family already seeing you as a disgrace?

[BBaggins06]

I just debunked your accusation, shall I debunk this one too? You and I both know the accomplishments in your life are limited, do you really need to be disgraced on the internet on top of your family already seeing you as a disgrace?

Oh goodie, this should be more fun than a barrel full of monkeys. Go ahead disgrace me puppet. Winning an Internet argument is so important in the grand scheme of things, right?

[mathematics1900]

Oh goodie, this should be more fun than a barrel full of monkeys. Go ahead disgrace me puppet. Winning an Internet argument is so important in the grand scheme of things, right?

Importance is an individual truth, and I am pretty positive you don't have the capacity to contemplate grand schemes.

[Nicole Dupre]

I'm more content just calling it anal sex. I don't need to be reminded that one of my sexual interests is named after a city in ancient Canaan and the basis of a fucked up set of Bible passages that speak against the act of sodomy as a sin. It's kinda a buzz kill.
Actually, sodomy includes oral sex. It's not limited to anal sex. Look it up.

You have to understand; the Bible made it very clear that any sex which wasn't for procreative purposes was a sin. The Bible introduced the concept of thought crimes. That's what coveting is. So what goes through your head is included in the Lord's list of no-nos. And it's the Lord who sanctified the bond between man and woman, and allowed them that small window of opportunity to experience lust. Well, actually enjoying sex is a no-no too, even between husband and wife. God's a stickler.

When would you say you could distinguish men from women, boys from girls, daddy from mommy, brother from sister, etc? I think it's safe to say that even a small child has their working reference points for the concept of binary genders. So, at some point during the socialization process, you learn to go through life with other clothed human being and you have your checklist for boy or girl, and man or woman. Everyone knows when they see another human being what their perception of that person's gender is. Even on an subconscious level, and even if you're confused, you assign them a gender. And that's all that gender is. Forget about genitals. You have a concept of gender that your brain uses socially, and it functions autonomously from your libido. Pre-op transsexuals turn all of your preconceived notions about gender out the window. We're here to re-write the rule book, or simply throw it out and start fucking you without one. If you're a man, and you perceive me as a woman, and if I see myself as a woman, and the world perceives me as a woman; the sex we're having is hetero sex. We're just not having sex with the goal of being fruitful and multiplying.

[mathematics1900]

If you're a man, and you perceive me as a woman, and if I see myself as a woman, and the world perceives me as a woman; the sex we're having is hetero sex. We're just not having sex with the goal of being fruitful and multiplying.

Not quite, the perception between the two people is that the relationship is heterosexual, because one identifies as a woman and one identifies as a man, but this goes back to the difference between perception vs. reality.

By technically adhering to the strictest definition of the words, it would be homosexual sex. This in itself is the biggest conundrum for the community, you didn't turn anything upside down on it's head, everything we know about genders still applies. If you're seen as a woman you'll be treated as such, if you're seen as a man you'll be treated as such. This is what most non-passable tgirls deal with, because the perception of self is constantly being challenged by the outside world, because the outside world is beating you over the head with what they see, their physical reality, that you are in a man's body. This will never change though, because the further we explore the psychology of mankind the more we realize how much of a factor the first 10 million years of our lives had on us as a species. It is like children who come from abused homes, they never heal, only cope with early scars.

[Nicole Dupre]

Not quite, the perception between the two people is that the relationship is heterosexual, because one identifies as a woman and one identifies as a man, but this goes back to the difference between perception vs. reality.

By technically adhering to the strictest definition of the words, it would be homosexual sex. This in itself is the biggest conundrum for the community, you didn't turn anything upside down on it's head, everything we know about genders still applies. If you're seen as a woman you'll be treated as such, if you're seen as a man you'll be treated as such. This is what most non-passable tgirls deal with, because the perception of self is constantly being challenged by the outside world, because the outside world is beating you over the head with what they see, their physical reality, that you are in a man's body. This will never change though, because the further we explore the psychology of mankind the more we realize how much of a factor the first 10 million years of our lives had on us as a species. It is like children who come from abused homes, they never heal, only cope with early scars.
But the man's libido is registering me as female. The libido is biological. I'm not confused about the internal plumbing. But if and when I confirm that I have Klinefelter's Syndrome, I'd argue that my chromosomes make binary sexuality categories a moot subject with me.

[buttslinger]

Ancient Roman religion supported sexuality as an aspect of prosperity for the state, and individuals might turn to private religious practice or "magic" for improving their erotic lives or reproductive health. Prostitution was legal, public, and widespread. "Pornographic" paintings were featured among the art collections in respectable upperclass households. It was considered natural and unremarkable for adult males to be sexually attracted to teen-aged youths of both sexes, and pederasty was condoned as long as the younger partner was not a freeborn Roman. "Homosexual" and "heterosexual" did not form the primary dichotomy of Roman thinking about sexuality, and no Latin words for these concepts exist. No moral censure was directed at the adult male who enjoyed sex acts with either women or males of inferior status, as long as his behaviors revealed no weaknesses or excesses, nor infringed on the rights and prerogatives of his male peers. While perceived effeminacy was denounced, sex in moderation with male prostitutes or slaves was not regarded as improper or vitiating to masculinity, if the male citizen took the active and not the receptive role. Hypersexuality, however, was condemned morally and medically in both men and women. -Wikipedia

[KittyPride]

While perceived effeminacy was denounced, sex in moderation with male prostitutes or slaves was not regarded as improper or vitiating to masculinity, if the male citizen took the active and not the receptive role.

This is a very important part....not regarded as vitiating to masculinity if the male takes the active role....i totally agree....

[Tyler___Durden]

About the guys not sticking around, alot of girls look ALOT less passable after a guy cums, just the honest truth.

Well that's down to the 'Panda effect:
Eats shoots & leaves http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[KittyPride]

Its ironic that most girls in the industry use their cock to be able to pay for surgery...

And the men think they can build their sexual identity around an illusion lol

[MrsKellyPierce]

Are we really bringing religion into this?

Religion is a bunch of hoopla...

Jesus/Mary etc is based on The Egyptian Sun God Same story...

The bible was written to control people at that time...

To scare them into goodness

[EvonRose]

Are we really bringing religion into this?

Religion is a bunch of hoopla...

Jesus/Mary etc is based on The Egyptian Sun God Same story...

The bible was written to control people at that time...

To scare them into goodness

Huh?

Okay I understand not everyone is in religion or does not believe in god...

But Jesus and Mother mary were actual people with actual evidence that they did exist....

What happened surrounding the stories may have been religious but regardless the people in the bible such as john the baptist, jesus, mary magdalene, Mother mary etc were all real.... Documented and proven.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Huh?

Okay I understand not everyone is in religion or does not believe in god...

But Jesus and Mother mary were actual people with actual evidence that they did exist....

What happened surrounding the stories may have been religious but regardless the people in the bible such as john the baptist, jesus, mary magdalene, Mother mary etc were all real.... Documented and proven.
Really give us that evidence Evon???

The town doesn't even exsist...

Watch Religiousless by Bill Mahr...

Or Zeitgeist

Then come back and argue :)

[EvonRose]

Really give us that evidence Evon???

The town doesn't even exsist...

Watch Religiousless by Bill Mahr...

Or Zeitgeist

Then come back and argue :)

Bethlehem does exist....

Out of the bible historical record does prove he does exist...

Even einstein who was agnostic stated that Jesus was the best philosopher and teacher...

How about you catch up on history and then come back and argue...

Bethlehem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlehem)

[EvonRose]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

[runningdownthatdream]

Bethlehem does exist....

Out of the bible historical record does prove he does exist...

Even einstein who was agnostic stated that Jesus was the best philosopher and teacher...

How about you catch up on history and then come back and argue...

There is no historical evidence to support Jesus ever existed. The scrolls in which his 'teachings' appear were written a long time after his death. During the time Jesus would have live Judea was fully under Roman rule. The Romans were quite good at record-keeping yet no mention of any of the 'events' written of in the New Testament were ever found in their records.

You are young yet and haven't had time on this earth to investigate the historical record. I'm sure that with time your views will change provided you're willing to forgo the religious dogma you currently hold.

[EvonRose]

The bible besides being a book to teach religion..

people fail to see that the bible is also a historic book... To discredit events that happen int he bible is ignorant, even historians and scientists have proven many various events that actually happened int he bible...

Like the war between the romans

Or the slavery of Jews

various wars, and actual historic people...

[GrimFusion]

Being used occurs in a lot more industries than the escorting business. Also, not every escort feels used, and even though you feel like that is what you are doing when you see one...using them for sex, not everybody feels the same way. Also I don't recall anyone stating that it is all one sides fault, I'm pretty sure as adults we all understand that every group has bad apples.



You should be making the box you live in larger sir, not smaller.

I'm 6'4". My box already needs to be pretty large. Okay, I'm not taking this seriously. I just don't see the point of your counter-argument. I already do a fair amount of playing devil's advocate and trying to approach discussions from more than one standpoint, but even I'd consider it a little picky to include full considerations made for every conceivable minority interest. Just because I may have omitted reference from my post doesn't necessarily mean I wasn't thinking about it. I'd rather speak in generalization instead of adding the word "some" before every referral to a group of people, especially when "some" only excludes a small fraction of that group. I mean, I already get crap for seeming overly-considerate or eager, and explaining my opinions to that extent would only exacerbate that image.

[KittyPride]

There is no historical evidence to support Jesus ever existed. The scrolls in which his 'teachings' appear were written a long time after his death. During the time Jesus would have live Judea was fully under Roman rule. The Romans were quite good at record-keeping yet no mention of any of the 'events' written of in the New Testament were ever found in their records.

You are young yet and haven't had time on this earth to investigate the historical record. I'm sure that with time your views will change provided you're willing to forgo the religious dogma you currently hold.

Its hard to believe Jesus did not excist... anyway... it does not even really matter. A lot of his teachings have survived time...Read the Nag Hammadi gospels and gnostic text... as well as the stories that did not make it into the bible.
Mary Magdaline was Jezus favorite apostel... but she was censored out by the men and church authorities around 300 AC.

Its really hard to believe Jesus did not excist... Because his teachings do.

[EvonRose]

Yeah, it is kinda hard to believe he didn't exist

If other apostle and historical figures existed, including Mary Magdalene who have hard historic proof...Then why did she mention Jesus in her books and her personal relationship with him..

You people underestimate ancient civilization..

And if one person writes a book, then another person writes a book, and history writes a textbooks and it matches...

Obviously there is something there.

[Nicole Dupre]

Every good story has just enough truth to make it plausible. So does every religion.

[Jackal]

While there are individuals and places in the Bible that are corroborated with historical evidence, the keyword is some. Jesus is not verified through contemporary accounts the way Mohammad was, but is a figure that might be completely symbolic, allegorical or fictional. Same for Socrates and some other philosophers of Antiquity.

"There are no contemporary witnesses to the life and death of Joshua of Nazareth, who came to be known in the Greek-speaking world as Jesus Christ (the king)."

Norman Cantor

[GrimFusion]

Wow, this topic has sure degenerated and it's my fault.
I really wish this didn't turn into a discussion about the validity of religious texts, but if that's the way it goes, here's my two cents; Religion in just about every form is more about social control than salvation. The Bible isn't a bad book, but it does little more than instill moral values by inciting fear of eternal damnation. Personally, I don't need to visualize burning in an eternal lake of fire to keep from murdering or thieving from people.

[KittyPride]

While there are individuals and places in the Bible that are corroborated with historical evidence, the keyword is some. Jesus is not verified through contemporary accounts the way Mohammad was, but is a figure that might be completely symbolic, allegorical or fictional. Same for Socrates and some other philosophers of Antiquity.

"There are no contemporary witnesses to the life and death of Joshua of Nazareth, who came to be known in the Greek-speaking world as Jesus Christ (the king)."

Norman Cantor

It does not matter. lol
The teaching of Jezus were avant garde anyway.
If someone like Jesus existed today... he would be crucified again :D

[EvonRose]

Every good story has just enough truth to make it plausible. So does every religion.

Exactly not every miracle story means it's the truth, sometimes exaggerated, but regardless the truth is the source...

I't s dumb for people to discredit jewish slaves being freed from egypt just because the ocean split in two... People fail to see that jews really did get free and lived in the desert for a few years before residing.

[mathematics1900]

But the man's libido is registering me as female. The libido is biological. I'm not confused about the internal plumbing. But if and when I confirm that I have Klinefelter's Syndrome, I'd argue that my chromosomes make binary sexuality categories a moot subject with me.

Tyler Durden actually posted a rather mind blowing video; Authors@Google: Ogi Ogas - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4). The man libido I believe doesn't register things as female, or male, I believe male libido is simply either on, or off. Which is why men were able to be sent into a frenzy at seeing a woman's ankle back in the day.

After reading a little about that syndrome, I am not sure if they would be able to do anything besides hormone treatments to send you one way or the other. Do they actually talk about any treatments for the syndrome or is it just a, take it as is condition?


Well that's down to the 'Panda effect:
Eats shoots & leaves

Lol, funny.


Watch Religiousless by Bill Mahr...

Oh how I love Bill Maher!


I'm 6'4". My box already needs to be pretty large. Okay, I'm not taking this seriously. I just don't see the point of your counter-argument. I already do a fair amount of playing devil's advocate and trying to approach discussions from more than one standpoint, but even I'd consider it a little picky to include full considerations made for every conceivable minority interest. Just because I may have omitted reference from my post doesn't necessarily mean I wasn't thinking about it. I'd rather speak in generalization instead of adding the word "some" before every referral to a group of people, especially when "some" only excludes a small fraction of that group. I mean, I already get crap for seeming overly-considerate or eager, and explaining my opinions to that extent would only exacerbate that image.

Bwahahahahaha, why in the hell would you say you're 6'4"? The comment about the box was a metaphor, lol. If you actually did realize those other areas existed you would of included the word some, because it changes the entire meaning of the sentence! Yes, I am going to force you to say what you mean, and I am going to challenge you on concepts that I feel you have a narrow view of, and that is exactly why I made my post. So if you're too lazy to include the word 'some' when putting thoughts to words then you will forever be harangued by me.

[Jackal]

The bible besides being a book to teach religion..

people fail to see that the bible is also a historic book... To discredit events that happen int he bible is ignorant, even historians and scientists have proven many various events that actually happened int he bible...

Like the war between the romans

Or the slavery of Jews

various wars, and actual historic people...

What historians and scientists? Any names of their publications? I am not an Egyptologist but I do know that the narratives about Egypt in the Bible are erroneous at best.

[Jackal]

It does not matter. lol
The teaching of Jezus were avant garde anyway.
If someone like Jesus existed today... he would be crucified again :D

I never said Jesus' teachings had no wisdom(there is, although he did not invent the Golden Rule) or importance to them(outside the obvious fact that Christianity would spread and gain prominence in the last dozen plus centuries) , but the question as to whether or not he exists is separate to that. I think it is either ignorant or dishonest to say that he is a historical individual without evidence to support that.

[EvonRose]

While there are individuals and places in the Bible that are corroborated with historical evidence, the keyword is some. Jesus is not verified through contemporary accounts the way Mohammad was, but is a figure that might be completely symbolic, allegorical or fictional. Same for Socrates and some other philosophers of Antiquity.

"There are no contemporary witnesses to the life and death of Joshua of Nazareth, who came to be known in the Greek-speaking world as Jesus Christ (the king)."

Norman Cantor

Yes but Mary Magdalene was

John the Baptist

numerous Roman leader...

Egyptian leaders...

they all mention Jesus exactly the same... So why discredit them? It's not like you have proof that the person they all describe isn't jesus.

And many Historians agree that he does exist.

So are we suppose to make our own assumption or go by scientific, and hard studies?

There more proof that he existed both from biblical and secular books, than proof he never existed at all... There is tons of evidence to support he existed...

[runningdownthatdream]

Yeah, it is kinda hard to believe he didn't exist

If other apostle and historical figures existed, including Mary Magdalene who have hard historic proof...Then why did she mention Jesus in her books and her personal relationship with him..

You people underestimate ancient civilization..

And if one person writes a book, then another person writes a book, and history writes a textbooks and it matches...

Obviously there is something there.

Evon, you might not believe this but the people who write religious texts are writing to influence the beliefs and actions of others. Religious texts aren't written from an objective point of view and therefore should not be read objectively. You are correct that some events in the Old and New Testament can be corroborated. But often ideas are given life - i.e.: many ideas taken together can be used to construct a person, an embodiment of the idea, if you will. Jesus is likely such a construct. If you truly know your history you will know there are dozens of stories that are much much older than the story of Jesus which have almost identical characteristics.

As far as underestimating ancient civilization, you are correct. However, I'd point you to Sumerian writings that are much older or even the Vedic writings. Based on your belief in the bible do you hold that the Sumerian and Hindu gods and teachings are also totally valid?

[KittyPride]

Anyway we as transwoman should perhaps be busy with the Magna Mater then with christian beliefs :D

[Jackal]

Yes but Mary Magdalene was

John the Baptist

numerous Roman leader...

Egyptian leaders...

they all mention Jesus exactly the same... So why discredit them? It's not like you have proof that the person they all describe isn't jesus.

And many Historians agree that he does exist.

So are we suppose to make our own assumption or go by scientific, and hard studies?

There more proof that he existed both from biblical and secular books, than proof he never existed at all...

So what if scripture mentions historical figures? That does not demonstrate that everyone in the narratives were actual, real-life persons. I could make up a story about a fictional character that involves a real world leader but that would not be evidence in favor of the existence of the fictional character. Are the gods, demigods and monsters of Greek mythology real because their narratives often involved real life people and places? Is Forrest Gump a real life person because his story involved the names of Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, etc.? I am not setting the bar to a scientific but to a historical level. Like Socrates and unlike the prophet Mohammad, Jesus had no contemporary witnesses or evidence to support that he was a real, living, breathing person. Conflicting gospels written decades after his death are not contemporary as they are not from his lifetime. If you would like to suggest reading books by these scientists and historians you keep mentioning, I'd be glad to check them out at the library.

[EvonRose]

Evon, you might not believe this but the people who write religious texts are writing to influence the beliefs and actions of others. Religious texts aren't written from an objective point of view and therefore should not be read objectively. You are correct that some events in the Old and New Testament can be corroborated. But often ideas are given life - i.e.: many ideas taken together can be used to construct a person, an embodiment of the idea, if you will. Jesus is likely such a construct. If you truly know your history you will know there are dozens of stories that are much much older than the story of Jesus which have almost identical characteristics.

As far as underestimating ancient civilization, you are correct. However, I'd point you to Sumerian writings that are much older or even the Vedic writings. Based on your belief in the bible do you hold that the Sumerian and Hindu gods and teachings are also totally valid?


I am not talking about the teachings because deity is a personal belief in to or not.

The bible is a historical book, not just some religious thing... many of the the events int he bible, many people, may kings, and priests, have been proven to happen.. So to discredit the reality of the bible to me is just fear in believing in it. I get people don't believe in god, But jesus was not a god in secular facts, he was a living flesh and blood. And many of the people who have been proven to exist have had personal relationships with him...

How can you discredit that? Plus Roman history? Mind you Romans didn't believe in god, or were not friends of the Jews... There was no religious backing behind it, pure history.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I love running and Jackal points

And there is so much scientific evidence to refute claims

And there will only be more

And it will be shocking and hilarious when it's proven it's hoopla

Lmao at it being called a historical book

[MrsKellyPierce]

I am not talking about the teachings because deity is a personal belief in to or not.

The bible is a historical book, not just some religious thing... many of the the events int he bible, many people, may kings, and priests, have been proven to happen.. So to discredit the reality of the bible to me is just fear in believing in it. I get people don't believe in god, But jesus was not a god in secular facts, he was a living flesh and blood. And many of the people who have been proven to exist have had personal relationships with him...

How can you discredit that? Plus Roman history? Mind you Romans didn't believe in god, or were not friends of the Jews... There was no religious backing behind it, pure history.
What makes "Jesus" "God" more true

Than the Greek Gods?

[KittyPride]

So what if scripture mentions historical figures? That does not demonstrate that everyone in the narratives were actual, real-life persons. I could make up a story about a fictional character that involves a real world leader but that would not be evidence in favor of the existence of the fictional character. Are the gods, demigods and monsters of Greek mythology real because their narratives often involved real life people and places? Is Forrest Gump a real life person because his story involved the names of Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, etc.? I am not setting the bar to a scientific but to a historical level. Like Socrates and unlike the prophet Mohammad, Jesus had no contemporary witnesses or evidence to support that he was a real, living, breathing person. Conflicting gospels written decades after his death are not contemporary as they are not from his lifetime. If you would like to suggest reading books by these scientists and historians you keep mentioning, I'd be glad to check them out at the library.

Jesus IS too good to be true...
Sure Mohammed really existed lol.

[EvonRose]

Josephus Flavius
Pliny the Younger
Tacitus
Suetonius
Talmud
Letters of Pontius Pilate
Cornelius Tacitus
Lucian of Samosata
Thallus and Phlegon
Mara Bar-Serapion
Josephus
The four Gospels

Kids start looking in your public library, or ebay...

[KittyPride]

What makes "Jesus" "God" more true

Than the Greek Gods?

They are not more true.
There are good stories and bad stories :D

It really is not important if Jesus really existed.
His teachings are fascinating.

[EvonRose]

What makes "Jesus" "God" more true

Than the Greek Gods?

Nobody said he was god here..

From secular point of view he was an actual human, only believed to be a god.

It's matter of challenging one's mind to actually read the bible, and then matching them up with secular books, and evidence.

People would be surprised to learn many events in the bible actually happened in historical accounts.

It's just a matter of opening up your horizon and separating religion from history...

[italianamerican25]

I heard Big Foot is real.

[EvonRose]

I heard Big Foot is real.

No but the Giant squid is...

[mathematics1900]

I heard Big Foot is real.

The funny thing about this is they are now starting to speculate that it is possible there is another primate out there that is smart enough to avoid humans, and has the ability to survive in the woods. A creature that could easily be confused as The Big Foot. There is something to multiple sightings of the same creature all over the world in the same type of terrain. Chupacabra? They finally figured out what it was...some strange breed of dog.

[italianamerican25]

How about the Boogyman?

[KittyPride]

How about the Boogyman?

Not real..... even the boogyman is bottom nowadays.

[italianamerican25]

The funny thing about this is they are now starting to speculate that it is possible there is another primate out there that is smart enough to avoid humans, and has the ability to survive in the woods. A creature that could easily be confused as The Big Foot. There is something to multiple sightings of the same creature all over the world in the same type of terrain. Chupacabra? They finally figured out what it was...some strange breed of dog.

Really? lol

[EvonRose]

I'm a believer of source...

Until we are able to explore every inch of the land and sea and universe... I am not going to discredit it...

Look what happened with the Giant squid, Many people were made fun of and humiliated because it's simply not possible for a 60 feet squid to exist right?

WRONG!

So I would not b surprised if the big foot was some hairy caveman.

Or the lochness monster was some left over dinosaur

Or the ufo were life form from another planet

Or the boogey man was your fat mother....

If we do not know 25 percent of the world we live in, how can you say we know everything? Humans have the biggest ego thinking we are so advanced, when we have a systems that put innocent people in jail, or a country who's major source is gas and fossil? Newsflash! thousands years from now, we will be another dumb stupid ancient civilization...

[GrimFusion]

Bwahahahahaha, why in the hell would you say you're 6'4"? The comment about the box was a metaphor, lol. If you actually did realize those other areas existed you would of included the word some, because it changes the entire meaning of the sentence! Yes, I am going to force you to say what you mean, and I am going to challenge you on concepts that I feel you have a narrow view of, and that is exactly why I made my post. So if you're too lazy to include the word 'some' when putting thoughts to words then you will forever be harangued by me.

If you want to waste your time inciting issue with me over word choice or negligible omission, be my guest. I'd suggest that instead of telling me what I should have added or retracted from my posts, you should reply with your own opinions and from your own standpoint so your intentions aren't misconstrued as an attack.

Your fault thus far has been your assumption that I don't understand the full scope of your response. That I'm somehow dullard enough to escape your metaphors and miss the entire point. I just don't think the debate you've approached me with is creditable enough for concern. That's why I'm poking fun at your metaphors and not going into much of any depth in debating this with you.

That doesn't mean I'll never consider the qualms you may have with my posts, but pick your fuckin' battles, man. This is petty.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I heard the loch ness monster is real - he is just good at hiding

[runningdownthatdream]

Josephus Flavius
Pliny the Younger
Tacitus
Suetonius
Talmud
Letters of Pontius Pilate
Cornelius Tacitus
Lucian of Samosata
Thallus and Phlegon
Mara Bar-Serapion
Josephus
The four Gospels

Kids start looking in your public library, or ebay...

Again you miss the point and running off a bunch of names from that book doesn't mean that Jesus was God. Clearly there are historical facts incorporated into the general story. Have you read the hundreds of texts found from that period? Do you know why those relatively few selected from the many hundreds that have been found were chosen to become what is know today as the Christian Bible?

Evon, you are showing a closed mind and worse a closed mind while still young and still without enough time to have read enough. Try reading other religious texts - the Vedas, the Sumerian writings, . Read the Epic of Gilgamesh. Read known writers from that time don't just do a look up on Google and read snippets from the web. I too can point to many writers and writings without the benefit of a Google look up. However, it is incumbent on the individual to read as much as they can and then formulate an opinion. There isn't a recommended bibliography for life or general knowledge.

If you choose to believe in Christianity and choose to believe Jesus was a historical figure with all the attributes accorded by a FEW writers with religious and political axes to grind against Jews then that's your choice. But presuming you're right and others are wrong when it comes to this topic just shows immaturity IMO.

[italianamerican25]

I'm a believer of source...

Until we are able to explore every inch of the land and sea and universe... I am not going to discredit it...

Look what happened with the Giant squid, Many people were made fun of and humiliated because it's simply not possible for a 60 feet squid to exist right?

WRONG!

So I would not b surprised if the big foot was some hairy caveman.

Or the lochness monster was some left over dinosaur

Or the ufo were life form from another planet

Or the boogey man was your fat mother....

If we do not know 25 percent of the world we live in, how can you say we know everything? Humans have the biggest ego thinking we are so advanced, when we have a systems that put innocent people in jail, or a country who's major source is gas and fossil? Newsflash! thousands years from now, we will be another dumb stupid ancient civilization...

Sounds like you are getting annoyed by this. lol

[EvonRose]

Again you miss the point and running off a bunch of names from that book doesn't mean that Jesus was God. Clearly there are historical facts incorporated into the general story. Have you read the hundreds of texts found from that period? Do you know why those relatively few selected from the many hundreds that have been found were chosen to become what is know today as the Christian Bible?

Evon, you are showing a closed mind and worse a closed mind while still young and still without enough time to have read enough. Try reading other religious texts - the Vedas, the Sumerian writings, . Read the Epic of Gilgamesh. Read known writers from that time don't just do a look up on Google and read snippets from the web. I too can point to many writers and writings without the benefit of a Google look up. However, it is incumbent on the individual to read as much as they can and then formulate an opinion. There isn't a recommended bibliography for life or general knowledge.

If you choose to believe in Christianity and choose to believe Jesus was a historical figure with all the attributes accorded by a FEW writers with religious and political axes to grind against Jews then that's your choice. But presuming you're right and others are wrong when it comes to this topic just shows immaturity IMO.

Omg! I can't believe you just said that...

I never stated Jesus was god... but a living human.

If that makes me immature and stupid then so is Einstein... And in my opinion Einstein has the credit of being a genius and you don't....

There you are again pointing out my age as if I have not learned a thing, but whatever when people point out my age and my looks as a sense of stupidity, you already lost by assuming something you have no knowledge of...

Not believing in something without actual proof is just as closed minded as believing in something with proof... Get my drift?

Give me a few names of historical figures that proves Jesus isn't real...

[Dino Velvet]

Not real..... even the boogyman is bottom nowadays.

Maybe the other Michael Myers but not this one.

http://michaelmay.us/07blog/images/1019_michaelmyers.jpg

[KittyPride]

Btw Jesus never said he was God... He said that we are ALL children of God :)

[mathematics1900]

If you want to waste your time inciting issue with me over word choice or negligible omission, be my guest. I'd suggest that instead of telling me what I should have added or retracted from my posts, you should reply with your own opinions and from your own standpoint so your intentions aren't misconstrued as an attack.

Your fault thus far has been your assumption that I don't understand the full scope of your response. That I'm somehow dullard enough to escape your metaphors and miss the entire point. I just don't think the debate you've approached me with is creditable enough for concern. That's why I'm poking fun at your metaphors and not going into much of any depth in debating this with you.

That doesn't mean I'll never consider the qualms you may have with my posts, but pick your fuckin' battles, man. This is petty.

Word choice, and negligible omission? If you don't understand how the word 'some' changes the implication of a sentence, then I don't know what to say to you besides go take a math class. Are you crazy? I already did reply you just decided to get all bent out of shape because I pointed out it makes a difference when you include and exclude the word some.

Now you're telling me what my faults are, lol. It is obvious you didn't consider what you stated, because your reply was thus, "Well I knew there was a difference, I just chose not to put some in there because who is going to write the word 'some' in each sentence? That's just too much work for my 6'4" ass!"

You don't understand the argument I'm approaching you with, otherwise you would of already seceded the point. Instead you want to claim that telling me you're 6'4" is poking fun of my metaphor, lol. I am picking my battles brotha, what the hell do you think I'm typing this out for, petty? Haha, it isn't petty, it's embarrassing that people like yourself and the majority of the population lack a fundamental understanding of debate and discussion.

[KittyPride]

Maybe the other Michael Myers but not this one.

http://michaelmay.us/07blog/images/1019_michaelmyers.jpg

God isnt it bad that you have to date a serial killer nowadays just to get penetrated? lol

[Dino Velvet]

God isnt it bad that you have to date a serial killer nowadays just to get penetrated? lol

Not all can.

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/images/1547.jpg

[runningdownthatdream]

Omg! I can't believe you just said that...

I never stated Jesus was god... but a living human.

If that makes me immature and stupid then so is Einstein... And in my opinion Einstein has the credit of being a genius and you don't....

There you are again pointing out my age as if I have not learned a thing, but whatever when people point out my age and my looks as a sense of stupidity, you already lost by assuming something you have no knowledge of...

Not believing in something without actual proof is just as closed minded as believing in something with proof... Get my drift?

You are far from stupid and I didn't mean to imply that you are. You didn't explicitly state Jesus is god that is true but it is implied based on other posts you have made concerning christianity. If you love Jesus for the 'teachings' then why not love and follow Buddha - there is far more historical evidence for the life of Siddhartha than there is for Jesus!

Frankly I don't care about Einstein's beliefs - are you claiming that the life of Jesus can be validated solely on the basis of what Einstein said? That's ridiculous. Einstein's life was spent proving ideas in a lab yet he makes a pronouncement about Jesus without having any proof - doesn't that strike you as odd? And if he did have proof then he certainly kept it from everyone else.

[KittyPride]

Not all can.

http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/images/1547.jpg

He was the worst...
I thought he did penetrate?
Or am I wrong?

[Dino Velvet]

I thought he did penetrate?

Sort of...

[KittyPride]

You are far from stupid and I didn't mean to imply that you are. You didn't explicitly state Jesus is god that is true but it is implied based on other posts you have made concerning christianity. If you love Jesus for the 'teachings' then why not love and follow Buddha - there is far more historical evidence for the life of Siddhartha than there is for Jesus!

Frankly I don't care about Einstein's beliefs - are you claiming that the life of Jesus can be validated solely on the basis of what Einstein said? That's ridiculous. Einstein's life was spent proving ideas in a lab yet he makes a pronouncement about Jesus without having any proof - doesn't that strike you as odd? And if he did have proof then he certainly kept it from everyone else.

I also read the teachings of the buddha which are also very interesting.
I dont get this discussion I really dont...
SOMEONE had to write down the gospels...who cares who said it... or wrote it down... its the texts and the meaning behind that texts that matters..
and BTW I believe the sutra's were written down long after the buddha passed away... and oral traditions were more accurate then, then they are now...

[KittyPride]

Sort of...

But then again... he looks kind of gay to me

[allurstouse]

You are far from stupid and I didn't mean to imply that you are. You didn't explicitly state Jesus is god that is true but it is implied based on other posts you have made concerning christianity. If you love Jesus for the 'teachings' then why not love and follow Buddha - there is far more historical evidence for the life of Siddhartha than there is for Jesus!

Frankly I don't care about Einstein's beliefs - are you claiming that the life of Jesus can be validated solely on the basis of what Einstein said? That's ridiculous. Einstein's life was spent proving ideas in a lab yet he makes a pronouncement about Jesus without having any proof - doesn't that strike you as odd? And if he did have proof then he certainly kept it from everyone else.

there is actually plenty of evidence of the life of Jesus. There are some fascinating doctoral papers on the subject, on the subject of what he actually said and waht was added etc. the bottom line is you are talking about faith. Faith does not require proof. if you had proof it wouldn't be faith. Chris hitchens had it right. Religon is the root of conflict not peace

[EvonRose]

You are far from stupid and I didn't mean to imply that you are. You didn't explicitly state Jesus is god that is true but it is implied based on other posts you have made concerning christianity. If you love Jesus for the 'teachings' then why not love and follow Buddha - there is far more historical evidence for the life of Siddhartha than there is for Jesus!

Frankly I don't care about Einstein's beliefs - are you claiming that the life of Jesus can be validated solely on the basis of what Einstein said? That's ridiculous. Einstein's life was spent proving ideas in a lab yet he makes a pronouncement about Jesus without having any proof - doesn't that strike you as odd? And if he did have proof then he certainly kept it from everyone else.

I follow the teachings of jesus because that's what I was taught growing up, as oppose to a buddhist with Siddhartha. However the teachings could not be more similar so why change?

Einstein Believed in Jesus from what he gathered in historical events, and even say He was the best teacher in any historical figures..

I believe the same.

What does believing in someone have to do with your intelligence? Just because you believe in a persons he should stop experimenting, and doing researches? That's dumb... Einstein did not believe in god because he felt there is no physical or historic evidence, Jesus is different he was a living human, with many facts supporting him...

In a secular matter separate God from Jesus...

I am addressing the solid form, human named Jesus, or chrestus..

Not Allah, or Jehova...

kelly said Jesus didn't exist, while many more superior historians and scientist Can prove her wrong with that statement.

[Dino Velvet]

But then again... he looks kind of gay to me

He was a little bit of exhibitionist but took Makarov to back of head in 1994.

http://www.mordercy.yoyo.pl/chikatilo/chikatilo_exposed_shrunk.jpg

[mathematics1900]

Einstein also believed that God wouldn't play dice with the Universe, and he was wrong. Einstein was fallible, and just another person like you and me.

[EvonRose]

Einstein also believed that God wouldn't play dice with the Universe, and he was wrong. Einstein was fallible, and just another person like you and me.

What do you mean playing dice?

[mathematics1900]

Michio Kaku will do a better job of explaining it than I can. :-)

Here! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNZQVyabiM&feature=relmfu)

edit: Woops, wrong video, fixed!

[runningdownthatdream]

I follow the teachings of jesus because that's what I was taught growing up, as oppose to a buddhist with Siddhartha. However the teachings could not be more similar so why change?

Einstein Believed in Jesus from what he gathered in historical events, and even say He was the best teacher in any historical figures..

I believe the same.

What does believing in someone have to do with your intelligence? Just because you believe in a persons he should stop experimenting, and doing researches? That's dumb... Einstein did not believe in god because he felt there is no physical or historic evidence, Jesus is different he was a living human, with many facts supporting him...

In a secular matter separate God from Jesus...

I am addressing the solid form, human named Jesus, or chrestus..

Not Allah, or Jehova...

kelly said Jesus didn't exist, while many more superior historians and scientist Can prove her wrong with that statement.

You have your 'beliefs' I have my knowledge. Let's leave it at that.

[runningdownthatdream]

Michio Kaku will do a better job of explaining it than I can. :-)

Here! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcivmBojzVk&feature=relmfu)

oh no! Not that crazy Michio Kaku again.........................

[EvonRose]

You have your 'beliefs' I have my knowledge. Let's leave it at that.

Really? Everything I just stated from the books I have read and the sources I gave isn't knowledge...

Your disbelief is the result of your lack of knowledge...

[loveboof]

"I do not believe in a personal God... If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal" ~ Albert Einstein

So yeah, Einstein was in no way a Christian...

[mathematics1900]

Christian? He was a determinist who believed in God. It is difficult for an educated and analytical man like Einstein to accept everything presented to him, he realized the faults of religion as we know it, but still was unable to shake the idea of a grand designer.

[loveboof]

Depends on your definition of 'God'.

Edit: I have no desire to continue debating religion with you guys, so I wouldn't bother responding to me if I were you. I just wanted to point out that Einstein was not a religious man, and so using his name to add weight to your faith is kinda dumb...

[mathematics1900]

Well considering in the same post I used the term 'grand designer' in relation to Einstein's belief in God, I thought it was pretty obvious what definition I was using, ugh, people and their inability to read.

[GrimFusion]

Word choice, and negligible omission? If you don't understand how the word 'some' changes the implication of a sentence, then I don't know what to say to you besides go take a math class. Are you crazy? I already did reply you just decided to get all bent out of shape because I pointed out it makes a difference when you include and exclude the word some.

Now you're telling me what my faults are, lol. It is obvious you didn't consider what you stated, because your reply was thus, "Well I knew there was a difference, I just chose not to put some in there because who is going to write the word 'some' in each sentence? That's just too much work for my 6'4" ass!"

You don't understand the argument I'm approaching you with, otherwise you would of already seceded the point. Instead you want to claim that telling me you're 6'4" is poking fun of my metaphor, lol. I am picking my battles brotha, what the hell do you think I'm typing this out for, petty? Haha, it isn't petty, it's embarrassing that people like yourself and the majority of the population lack a fundamental understanding of debate and discussion.

Fuck you, too; buddy. Fuck you, too.
You're a waste of my time.
I'd suggest you focus on learning how to get along with people.

[loveboof]

Well considering in the same post I used the term 'grand designer' in relation to Einstein's belief in God, I thought it was pretty obvious what definition I was using, ugh, people and their inability to read.

LOL. You and I both know that you edited that into your post after I had already replied.

[mathematics1900]

Fuck you, too; buddy. Fuck you, too.
You're a waste of my time.
I'd suggest you focus on learning how to get along with people.

Who cares about your suggestions? You're a nobody.

[runningdownthatdream]

Really? Everything I just stated from the books I have read and the sources I gave isn't knowledge...

Your disbelief is the result of your lack of knowledge...

But that's it entirely: I don't 'disbelieve'. You quoted some names and nothing else other than 'go read books in the library'. My contention is that you don't have the breadth or depth of wisdom to discuss this topic. You have pontificated long and hard on your expertise in the area of gender - and I'm sure many are prepared to accept your expertise because you have lived a life requiring you to investigate gender topics. For sure I won't challenge your arguments in that area but that's because I'm wise to know what I don't know.

You on the other hand refuse to admit even the possibility that you don't know. Again it's immaturity on your part - I was there once. I know what's like.

[EvonRose]

Believing in Jesus doesn't make one a christian.

I believe in Muhammad, because historical evidence shown that he did exist, but I'm no muslim....

Believing in a possibility of a god also does not mean your part of an organized religion, There a personal relationship with oneself and a deity that does not always involve a church.

[mathematics1900]

LOL. You and I both know that you edited that into your post after I had already replied.

The post wasn't edited, and I am pretty sure this is indicated at the bottom of the post. Check the video one page back that I actually did edit, it indicates on the bottom that the post had been edited. Maybe you can't see this, but a moderator would be able to come in here and confirm that the post wasn't edited.

[EvonRose]

But that's it entirely: I don't 'disbelieve'. You quoted some names and nothing else other than 'go read books in the library'. My contention is that you don't have the breadth or depth of wisdom to discuss this topic. You have pontificated long and hard on your expertise in the area of gender - and I'm sure many are prepared to accept your expertise because you have lived a life requiring you to investigate gender topics. For sure I won't challenge your arguments in that area but that's because I'm wise to know what I don't know.

You on the other hand refuse to admit even the possibility that you don't know. Again it's immaturity on your part - I was there once. I know what's like.

I don't need to prove that many proven historical figures have had relationship with him, seen him, touched him...

Now if you can come up with any evidence that disprove this, Then we can debate... Your a soldier without a gun... I can come back and forth and give you many historical files, and evidence and people... I didn't come to this empty...

So if being immature means prepared, educated, and has the passion to read on various topics of life, then I will take that anyway than a person of no facts or support...

[loveboof]

The post wasn't edited, and I am pretty sure this is indicated at the bottom of the post. Check the video one page back that I actually did edit, it indicates on the bottom that the post had been edited. Maybe you can't see this, but a moderator would be able to come in here and confirm that the post wasn't edited.

Don't be a complete tool. You know that your original post was only one sentence long.

That little indication of an edit does not show up if you edit your post immediately after making it. I edit a lot of my posts and I am completely aware of how this works.

So stop trolling and suck it up for once. I caught you on your bullshit.

[yosi]

Einstein Believed in Jesus



Einstein was a jew . jewish poeple DON'T believe in Jesus...............

[EvonRose]

Einstein was a jew . jewish poeple DON'T believe in Jesus...............

Yes they do!!!

They just don't believe he was the messiah....

[GrimFusion]

Who cares about your suggestions? You're a nobody.
Don't go thinking you've won. I'm just sick of repeating myself and receiving the same response. If you knew anything about debate, trying to carry one with somebody who admits you have a point, but isn't concerned enough to offer a rebuttal leads to a stalemate or debate loop. I'd like to see it come to a stalemate, but you're far too busy playing the nerd who has to have the last word and needs to be right; even if it means annoying other people in the process. Get over yourself, man. Otherwise, I'm done with this conversation because you've made it more than apparent that you just want to bicker.

[runningdownthatdream]

I don't need to prove that many proven historical figures have had relationship with him, seen him, touched him...

Now if you can come up with any evidence that disprove this, Then we can debate... Your a soldier without a gun... I can come back and forth and give you many historical files, and evidence and people... I didn't come to this empty...

So if being immature means prepared, educated, and has the passion to read on various topics of life, then I will take that anyway than a person of no facts or support...

LOL...............I like you Evon. Really I do, although I'm not prepared to spend my day on a message board providing you with a list of reading material gained over my lifetime starting from the age of 5. What I would hope though is that our debate here inspires you keep reading and asking questions. Kelly did mention 'Zeitgest' which is a decent starter but if only because it touches on a multitude of areas worthy of investigating.

I would also ask of you - if you ever stumble upon it - to send me excerpts from historical documents/references done around the 'time of Jesus' that reference his name, family, exploits etc. Mind you I'm not asking for you to send me the names of people who believe there are such references, I'm asking you to send the names of the actual documents or monuments and where they can be found.

[Teydyn]

Only 3 pages to go... wen can make it to 100 without even another topic change, this one is good for at least 10 pages... :D

[mathematics1900]

Don't be a complete tool. You know that your original post was only one sentence long.

That little indication of an edit does not show up if you edit your post immediately after making it. I edit a lot of my posts and I am completely aware of how this works.

So stop trolling and suck it up for once. I caught you on your bullshit.

All edits are stored, any moderator can come and confirm that the post wasn't edited. Admit that you quickly read the post and instead of thinking about it made some asinine comment like, "depends on your definition of God." Trolling? You didn't call me out on anything, the post wasn't edited, I have no reason to lie, your ego lead you here man.


Don't go thinking you've won. I'm just sick of repeating myself and receiving the same response. If you knew anything about debate, trying to carry one with somebody who admits you have a point, but isn't concerned enough to offer a rebuttal leads to a stalemate or debate loop. I'd like to see it come to a stalemate, but you're far too busy playing the nerd who has to have the last word and needs to be right; even if it means annoying other people in the process. Get over yourself, man. Otherwise, I'm done with this conversation because you've made it more than apparent that you just want to bicker.

Lol, so after physical intimidation didn't work with the 6'4" comment, I mean why would it, this is the internet, and now you're trying to tell me I'm a nerd? Haha, why because I'm smarter than you, because saying fuck you didn't get a rise out of me it just further emphasized my point on how shallow your views are? Yes, I have won, because I'm not you. Otherwise you're done with this conversation? Hahaha, you're done with me now? Hahaha, so feminine.

[buttslinger]

Jesus! The Entire New Testament is written by those who knew Jesus, or carried on the Apostle's writings. Read a book,people!!!

What did we decide about Domino? Does she deserve $1,000/hour??

[GrimFusion]

Lol, so after physical intimidation didn't work with the 6'4" comment, I mean why would it, this is the internet

You dumb ass. I wasn't trying to intimidate you, and you know it. Quit trolling.

[loveboof]

Haha. I think it's pretty obvious from the small amount of your comments on this forum what you're all about...

Even with the edit, you are saying absolutely nothing to me! My post was a quotation from Einstein followed by me asserting that he was not a Christian.

What is there to argue with from that?

[mathematics1900]

Jesus! The Entire New Testament is written by those who knew Jesus, or carried on the Apostle's writings. Read a book,people!!!

What did we decide about Domino? Does she deserve $1,000/hour??

Setting a price on services isn't about what you deserve, it's about what you can get, if you're a broke ass and can't spend $1,000 on some fun then work on making more money. So annoying to see people asking others to lower their standards because you're too poor to pay for entertainment.


You dumb ass. I wasn't trying to intimidate you, and you know it. Quit trolling.

I really don't see any other reason that you would mention you're 6'4"? I mean, you couldn't of seriously thought that was a witty remark, could you of?


Haha. I think it's pretty obvious from the small amount of your comments on this forum what you're all about...

Even with the edit, you are saying absolutely nothing to me! My post was a quotation from Einstein followed by me asserting that he was not a Christian.

What is there to argue with from that?

Ahhh, the first sign of back pedaling. You said, "It depends on your definition of God.", in my post I already addressed the definition of how Einstein viewed God, you simply didn't read it because your ego was quick to make the point of, "DEPENDS ON THE DEFINITION". You're just mad that you overlooked this detail in my post and are now trying to accuse me of editing my post. Why would I edit my post, just so that I can what, make you feel stupid? I don't need to edit a post to make you feel stupid, people around you everyday make you feel stupid. There is nothing to argue about I just thought it was cute you would accuse me of editing a post to make you look bad, lol. Guy, I don't care that much.


EDIT: Edited immediately after making the post to see if it puts an edited mark on the bottom.

EDIT#2: Seems there is a small gap to edit a post without the marker, too bad I still didn't edit it, lol.

[EvonRose]

LOL...............I like you Evon. Really I do, although I'm not prepared to spend my day on a message board providing you with a list of reading material gained over my lifetime starting from the age of 5. What I would hope though is that our debate here inspires you keep reading and asking questions. Kelly did mention 'Zeitgest' which is a decent starter but if only because it touches on a multitude of areas worthy of investigating.

I would also ask of you - if you ever stumble upon it - to send me excerpts from historical documents/references done around the 'time of Jesus' that reference his name, family, exploits etc. Mind you I'm not asking for you to send me the names of people who believe there are such references, I'm asking you to send the names of the actual documents or monuments and where they can be found.

Well I have always been taught to investigate as oppose to disagreeing with something blindly...

It does not take a genius to read for example Mary Magdalen who is a historic figure mention Jesus's life with her's, and then for scholars, and historians to prove that indeed she did exist. And this Jesus she mentioned in her life had also been involved with other prophets, and certain historical events int he bible proven true by scholars and Historians...

So the only question you have to answer is who is this person they mention or called jesus?

Obviously it's one answer.... It Jesus...

Saying he does not exist doe snot add up to the historic evidence many both religious and non religious people provided, There not been a strong argument that he didn't exist.

I gave you names so you can look up the documents yourself... Here is a starter

Cornelius Tacitus
Tacitus lived from A.D. 55 to A.D. 120. He was a Roman historian and has been described as the greatest historian of Rome, noted for his integrity and moral uprightness. His most famous works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals relate the historical narrative from Augustus’ death in A.D.14 to Nero’s death in A.D. 68. The Histories begin their narrative after Nero’s death and finish with Domitian’s death in A.D. 96. In his section describing Nero’s decision to blame the fire of Rome on the Christians, Tacitus affirms that the founder of Christianity, a man he calls Chrestus (a common misspelling of Christ, which was Jesus’ surname), was executed by Pilate, the procurator of Judea during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberias. Tacitus was hostile to Christianity because in the same paragraph he describes Christus’ or Christ’s death, he describes Christianity as a pernicious superstition. It would have therefore been in his interests to declare that Jesus had never existed, but he did not, and perhaps he did not because he could not without betraying the historical record.

[loveboof]

You're just mad that you overlooked this detail in my post and are now trying to accuse me of editing my post. Why would I edit my post, just so that I can what, make you feel stupid?

I never said a reason for why you edited your post. I don't care what your reasons were. All I said was that my response was made before I read your edit.

But as I said before:

Even with the edit, you are saying absolutely nothing to me! My post was a quotation from Einstein followed by me asserting that he was not a Christian.
So talking about overlooking details, why is it you ignored this whole part of my last post? Is it because that couldn't be milked for extra BS?

If you're not a troll, you're a douche. And both are equally tedious and predictable.

[MrsKellyPierce]

ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS

No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.

Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge.

Courts of law do not generally allow hearsay as testimony, and nor does honest modern scholarship. Hearsay does not provide good evidence, and therefore, we should dismiss it.

If you do not understand this, imagine yourself confronted with a charge for a crime which you know you did not commit. You feel confident that no one can prove guilt because you know that there exists no evidence whatsoever for the charge against you. Now imagine that you stand present in a court of law that allows hearsay as evidence. When the prosecution presents its case, everyone who takes the stand against you claims that you committed the crime, not as a witness themselves, but solely because they claim other people said so. None of these other people, mind you, ever show up in court, nor can anyone find them.

Hearsay does not work as evidence because we have no way of knowing whether the person lied, or simply based his or her information on wrongful belief or bias. We know from history about witchcraft trials and kangaroo courts that hearsay provides neither reliable nor fair statements of evidence. We know that mythology can arise out of no good information whatsoever. We live in a world where many people believe in demons, UFOs, ghosts, or monsters, and an innumerable number of fantasies believed as fact taken from nothing but belief and hearsay. It derives from these reasons why hearsay cannot serves as good evidence, and the same reasoning must go against the claims of a historical Jesus or any other historical person.

Authors of ancient history today, of course, can only write from indirect observation in a time far removed from their aim. But a valid historian's own writing gets cited with sources that trace to the subject themselves, or to eyewitnesses and artifacts. For example, a historian today who writes about the life of George Washington, of course, can not serve as an eyewitness, but he can provide citations to documents which give personal or eyewitness accounts. None of the historians about Jesus give reliable sources to eyewitnesses, therefore all we have remains as hearsay.

[Tyler___Durden]

Tyler Durden actually posted a rather mind blowing video; Authors@Google: Ogi Ogas - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4)
I posted that as a thought point to this thread.
Heres some more stuff on it.

http://www.billionwickedthoughts.com
billionwickedthoughts: Blog (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/billion-wicked-thoughts)
Billionwickedthoughts on Wiki (http://tinyurl.com/cmbuoz5)

I've just ordered the book off Amazon (http://tinyurl.com/6gealnw)

I instinctively agree with the hypothesis and I posted this on another board last year. A friend posted this responce:

f3lix_ said:
"They've gotten a lot of emails regarding Dr. Ogas. He is no longer in any way affiliated with Boston University, except as a recent graduate. They have asked him to stop using his official Boston University email address in connection with this project, or his website. He is officially on his own, and this project is NOT IRB APPROVED.

That is the official status as stated by the Boston University IRB office.

The problem with this is threefold:

[b]1. The researcher has no expertise in the area he is researching, nor has he recruited anyone to give him guidance.

2. The researcher has substantial profit motivation to produce work in this area (book contract with Penguin) which may lead to unethical conduct/a tendency to misrepresent his results.

3. The research is in no way overseen by any external body which can examine it for potential unethical conduct. "

Source (http://ithiliana.dreamwidth.org/1064846.html)

He seems a very shady guy, to say the least. Though I suppose some here won't be troubled that Boston University had to take action to actively distance themselves from him, and insist he stop implying professional association with them.

Don't kid yourselves that this is in any way comparable to proper peer-reviewed research, it's just basic pop-psychology, which unfortunately loses any credibility it might have otherwise had-- for pretending to be far more than it is.

Credible, trustworthy academics, don't need to imply non-existent professional associations and endorsements. That's the behaviour of a fraud.

I hope you all appreciate the way I don't let severe and fundamental scientific reservations,
get in the way of me putting up a good post. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/rolleyes.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[MrsKellyPierce]

NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES

Virtually all other claims of Jesus come from sources outside of Christian writings. Devastating to the claims of Christians, however, comes from the fact that all of these accounts come from authors who lived after the alleged life of Jesus. Since they did not live during the time of the hypothetical Jesus, none of their accounts serve as eyewitness evidence.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

Pliny the Younger (born: 62 C.E.) His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of range as an eyewitness account.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E., mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.

Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law, including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for Jesus. They claim that Yeshu in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Yeshu, according to scholars depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus or it may refer to Yeshu ben Pandera, a teacher of the 2nd centuy CE. Regardless of how one interprets this, the Palestinian Talmud didn't come into existence until the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion. At best it can only serve as a controversial Christian or Jewish legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence for a historical Jesus.

Christian apologists mostly use the above sources for their "evidence" of Jesus because they believe they represent the best outside sources. All other sources (Christian and non-Christian) come from even less reliable sources, some of which include: Mara Bar-Serapion (circa 73 C.E.), Ignatius (50 - 98? C.E.), Polycarp (69 - 155 C.E.), Clement of Rome (? - circa 160 C.E.), Justin Martyr (100 - 165 C.E.), Lucian (circa 125 - 180 C.E.), Tertullian (160 - ? C.E.), Clement of Alexandria (? - 215 C.E.), Origen (185 - 232 C.E.), Hippolytus (? - 236 C.E.), and Cyprian (? - 254 C.E.). As you can see, all these people lived well after the alleged death of Jesus. Not one of them provides an eyewitness account, all of them simply spout hearsay.

As you can see, apologist Christians embarrass themselves when they unwittingly or deceptively violate the rules of historiography by using after-the-event writings as evidence for the event itself. Not one of these writers gives a source or backs up his claims with evidential material about Jesus. Although we can provide numerous reasons why the Christian and non-Christian sources prove spurious, and argue endlessly about them, we can cut to the chase by simply determining the dates of the documents and the birth dates of the authors. It doesn't matter what these people wrote about Jesus, an author who writes after the alleged happening and gives no detectable sources for his material can only give example of hearsay. All of these anachronistic writings about Jesus could easily have come from the beliefs and stories from Christian believers themselves. And as we know from myth, superstition, and faith, beliefs do not require facts or evidence for their propagation and circulation. Thus we have only beliefs about Jesus' existence, and nothing more.

FAKES, FRAUDS, AND FICTIONS

Because the religious mind relies on belief and faith, the religious person can inherit a dependence on any information that supports a belief and that includes fraudulent stories, rumors, unreliable data, and fictions, without the need to check sources, or to investigate the reliability of the information. Although hundreds of fraudulent claims exist for the artifacts of Jesus, I will present only three examples which seem to have a life of their own and have spread through the religious community and especially on internet discussion groups.

The Shroud of Turin

Many faithful people believe the shroud represents the actual burial cloth of Jesus where they claim the image on the cloth represents an actual 'photographic' image left behind by the crucified body.

The first mention of the shroud comes from a treatise (written or dictated) by Geoffroi de Charny in 1356 and who claims to have owned the cloth (see The Book of Chivalry of Geoffroi De Charny). Later, in the 16th century, it suddenly appeared in a cathedral in Turin, Italy. (Note that thousands of claimed Jesus relics appeared in cathedrals throughout Europe, including the wood from the cross, chalices, blood of Jesus, etc. These artifacts proved popular and served as a prosperous commercial device which filled the money coffers of the churches.) [See The Family Jewels for some examples.]

Sadly, many people of faith believe that there actually exists scientific evidence to support their beliefs in the shroud's authenticity. Considering how the Shroud's apologists use the words, "science," "fact," and "authentic," without actual scientific justification, and even include pseudo-scientists (without mentioning the 'pseudo') to testify to their conclusions, it should not come to any surprise why a faithful person would not question their information or their motives. Television specials have also appeared that purport the authenticity of the shroud. Science, however, does not operate though television specials who have a commercial interest and have no qualms about deceiving the public.

Experts around the world consider the 14-foot-long linen sheet, which has remained in a cathedral in Turin since 1578, a forgery because of carbon-dating tests performed in 1988. Three different independent radiocarbon dating laboratories in Zurich, Oxford and the University of Arizona yielded a date range of 1260-1390 C.E. (consistent with the time period of Charny's claimed ownership). Joe Zias of Hebrew University of Jerusalem calls the shroud indisputably a fake. "Not only is it a forgery, but it's a bad forgery." The shroud actually depicts a man whose front measures 2 inches taller than his back and whose elongated hands and arms would indicate that he had the affliction of gigantism if he actually lived. (Also read Joe Nickell's, Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin: Latest Scientific Findings)

Walter C. McCrone, et al, (see Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin) discovered red ochre (a pigment found in earth and widely used in Italy during the Middle Ages) on the cloth which formed the body image and vermilion paint, made from mercuric sulphide, used to represent blood. The actual scientific findings reveal the shroud as a 14th century painting, not a two-thousand year-old cloth with Christ's image. Revealingly, no Biblical scholar or scientist (with any credibility), cites the shroud of Turin as evidence for a historical Jesus.

The Burial box of James

Even many credible theologians bought this fraud, hook-line-and-sinker. The Nov./Dec. 2002, issue of Biblical Archaeology Review magazine announced a "world exclusive!" article about evidence of Jesus written in stone, claiming that they found the actual ossuary of "James, Brother of Jesus" in Jerusalem. This story exploded on the news and appeared widely on television and newspapers around the world.

Interestingly, they announced the find as the "earliest historical reference of Jesus yet found." Since they claimed the inscribing on the box occurred around 70 C.E., that agrees with everything claimed by this thesis (that no contemporary evidence exists for Jesus). Even if the box script proved authentic, it would not provide evidence for Jesus simply because no one knew who wrote the script or why. It would only show the first indirect mention of a Jesus and it could not serve as contemporary evidence simply because it didn't come into existence until long after the alleged death of Jesus.

The claim for authenticity of the burial box of James, however, proved particularly embarrassing for the Biblical Archaeology Review and for those who believed them without question. Just a few months later, archaeologists determined the inscription as a forgery (and an obvious one at that) and they found the perpetrator and had him arrested (see 'Jesus box' exposed as fake and A fake? James Ossuary dealer arrested, suspected of forgery).

Regrettably, the news about the fraud never matched the euphoria of the numerous stories of the find and many people today still believe the story as true.

Letters of Pontius Pilate

This would appear hilarious if not for the tragic results that can occur from believing in fiction: many faithful (especially on the internet) have a strong belief that Pontius Pilate actually wrote letters to Seneca in Rome where he mentions Jesus and his reported healing miracles.

Considering the lack of investigational temper of the religious mind, it might prove interesting to the critical reader that the main source for the letters of Pilate come from W. P. Crozier's 1928 book titled, "Letters of Pontius Pilate: Written During His Governorship of Judea to His Friend Seneca in Rome." The book cites Crozier as the editor as if he represented a scholar who edited Pilate's letters. Well, from the title, it certainly seems to indicate that Pilate wrote some letters doesn't it? However, unbeknownst or ignored by the uncritical faithful, this book represents Crozier's first novel, a fictionalized account of what he thought Pilate would have written.

During the first publication, no one believed this novel represented fact and reviews of the day reveal it as a work of fiction.

Crozier, a newspaper editor, went to Oxford University and retained an interest in Latin, Greek and the Bible. He wrote this novel as if it represented the actual letters of Pilate. Of course no scholar would cite this as evidence because no letters exist of Pilate to Seneca, and Seneca never mentions Jesus in any of his writings.

The belief in Pilate's letters represents one of the more amusing fad beliefs in evidential Jesus, however, it also reveals just how myths, fakes, and fictions can leak into religious thought. Hundreds of years from now, Crozier's fictionalized account may very well end up just as 'reliable' as the gospels

[MrsKellyPierce]

I can keep going - there is no factual proof

[Tyler___Durden]

Oh, more on men who Pay-date Ts escorts.
I just said to my man that all the guys who visit me, identify as straight.
His response: "There's only one thing straight about your clients and it pokes out of their trousers!"
I replied: "So where does that put you, sweety?" http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/dry.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
"Oh, ...well there is that." http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/unsure.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[EvonRose]

Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

This was also evidence and supported the bible....

How does two different things, in two different times come to become one big puzzle?

The romans hated Jesus and Christians... So did Jews...

If they were to simply cut out Jesus in History they would have never documented it...

All documents come from Very historic philosophers, and non christians alike, so there no bias...

Even the jews had no choice to believe in his existence, because there are many supportive evidence...

Jesus existed... And if you have to discredit any historians, philosophy, etc to Support your non belief then you might as well cut out had of the history in that region as well... Which by the way is still thought in public schools why? Because it append, and it existed.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.

This was also evidence and supported the bible....

How does two different things, in two different times come to become one big puzzle?

The romans hated Jesus and Christians... So did Jews...

If they were to simply cut out Jesus in History they would have never documented it...

All documents come from Very historic philosophers, and non christians alike, so there no bias...

Even the jews had no choice to believe in his existence, because there are many supportive evidence...

Jesus existed... And if you have to discredit any historians, philosophy, etc to Support your non belief then you might as well cut out had of the history in that region as well...
Surely one of his many followers would of? Something, anything...Plenty of stuff on Greek Gods

[MrsKellyPierce]

No sweetheart there is usually circumstantial proof of other historical figures and facts

There is just hereasy when it comes to Jesus

[MrsKellyPierce]

WHAT ABOUT WRITINGS DURING THE LIFE OF JESUS?

What appears most revealing of all, comes not from what people later wrote about Jesus but what people did not write about him. Consider that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him!

If, indeed, the Gospels portray a historical look at the life of Jesus, then the one feature that stands out prominently within the stories shows that people claimed to know Jesus far and wide, not only by a great multitude of followers but by the great priests, the Roman governor Pilate, and Herod who claims that he had heard "of the fame of Jesus" (Matt 14:1)". One need only read Matt: 4:25 where it claims that "there followed him [Jesus] great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judea, and from beyond Jordan." The gospels mention, countless times, the great multitude that followed Jesus and crowds of people who congregated to hear him. So crowded had some of these gatherings grown, that Luke 12:1 alleges that an "innumerable multitude of people... trode one upon another." Luke 5:15 says that there grew "a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear..." The persecution of Jesus in Jerusalem drew so much attention that all the chief priests and scribes, including the high priest Caiaphas, not only knew about him but helped in his alleged crucifixion. (see Matt 21:15-23, 26:3, Luke 19:47, 23:13). The multitude of people thought of Jesus, not only as a teacher and a miracle healer, but a prophet (see Matt:14:5).

So here we have the gospels portraying Jesus as famous far and wide, a prophet and healer, with great multitudes of people who knew about him, including the greatest Jewish high priests and the Roman authorities of the area, and not one person records his existence during his lifetime? If the poor, the rich, the rulers, the highest priests, and the scribes knew about Jesus, who would not have heard of him?

Then we have a particular astronomical event that would have attracted the attention of anyone interested in the "heavens." According to Luke 23:44-45, there occurred "about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." Yet not a single mention of such a three hour ecliptic event got recorded by anyone, including the astronomers and astrologers, anywhere in the world, including Pliny the Elder and Seneca who both recorded eclipses from other dates. Note also that, for obvious reasons, solar eclipses can't occur during a full moon (passovers always occur during full moons), Nor does a single contemporary person write about the earthquake described in Matthew 27:51-54 where the earth shook, rocks ripped apart (rent), and graves opened.

Matthew 2 describes Herod and all of Jerusalem as troubled by the worship of the infant Jesus. Herod then had all of the children of Bethlehem slain. If such extraordinary infanticides of this magnitude had occurred, why didn't anyone write about it?

Some apologists attempt to dig themselves out of this problem by claiming that there lived no capable historians during that period, or due to the lack of education of the people with a writing capacity, or even sillier, the scarcity of paper gave reason why no one recorded their "savior." But the area in and surrounding Jerusalem served, in fact, as the center of education and record keeping for the Jewish people. The Romans, of course, also kept many records. Moreover, the gospels mention scribes many times, not only as followers of Jesus but the scribes connected with the high priests. And as for historians, there lived plenty at the time who had the capacity and capability to record, not only insignificant gossip, but significant events, especially from a religious sect who drew so much popular attention through an allegedly famous and infamous Jesus.

Take, for example, the works of Philo Judaeus whose birth occurred in 20 B.C.E. and died 50 C.E. He lived as the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time and lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus "the Christ." Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's (4? B.C.E. - 65 C.E.) writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder (23? - 79 C.E.).

If, indeed, such a well known Jesus existed, as the gospels allege, does any reader here think it reasonable that, at the very least, the fame of Jesus would not have reached the ears of one of these men?

Amazingly, we have not one Jewish, Greek, or Roman writer, even those who lived in the Middle East, much less anywhere else on the earth, who ever mention him during his supposed life time. This appears quite extraordinary, and you will find few Christian apologists who dare mention this embarrassing fact.

To illustrate this extraordinary absence of Jesus Christ literature, just imagine going through nineteenth century literature looking for an Abraham Lincoln but unable to find a single mention of him in any writing on earth until the 20th century. Yet straight-faced Christian apologists and historians want you to buy a factual Jesus out of a dearth void of evidence, and rely on nothing but hearsay written well after his purported life. Considering that most Christians believe that Jesus lived as God on earth, the Almighty gives an embarrassing example for explaining his existence. You'd think a Creator might at least have the ability to bark up some good solid evidence.



HISTORICAL SCHOLARS

Many problems occur with the reliability of the accounts from ancient historians. Most of them did not provide sources for their claims, as they rarely included bibliographic listings, or supporting claims. They did not have access to modern scholarly techniques, and many times would include hearsay as evidence. No one today would take a modern scholar seriously who used the standards of ancient historians, yet this proves as the only kind of source that Christology comes from. Couple this with the fact that many historians believed as Christians themselves, sometimes members of the Church, and you have a built-in prejudice towards supporting a "real" Jesus.

In modern scholarship, even the best historians and Christian apologists play the historian game. They can only use what documents they have available to them. If they only have hearsay accounts then they have to play the cards that history deals them. Many historians feel compelled to use interpolation or guesses from hearsay, and yet this very dubious information sometimes ends up in encyclopedias and history books as fact.

In other words, Biblical scholarship gets forced into a lower standard by the very sources they examine. A renowned Biblical scholar illustrated this clearly in an interview when asked about Biblical interpretation. David Noel Freeman (the General editor of the Anchor Bible Series and many other works) responded with:

"We have to accept somewhat looser standards. In the legal profession, to convict the defendant of a crime, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In civil cases, a preponderance of the evidence is sufficient. When dealing with the Bible or any ancient source, we have to loosen up a little; otherwise, we can't really say anything."

-David Noel Freedman (in Bible Review magazine, Dec. 1993, p.34)

The implications appear obvious. If one wishes to believe in a historical Jesus, he or she must accept this based on loose standards. Couple this with the fact that all of the claims come from hearsay, and we have a foundation made of sand, and a castle of information built of cards.



CITING GEOGRAPHY, AND KNOWN HISTORICAL FIGURES AS "EVIDENCE"

Although the New Testament mentions various cities, geological sites, kings and people that existed or lived during the alleged life of Jesus, these descriptions cannot serve as evidence for the existence of Jesus anymore than works of fiction that include recognizable locations, and make mention of actual people.

Homer's Odyssey, for example, describes the travels of Odysseus throughout the Greek islands. The epic describes, in detail, many locations that existed in history. But should we take Odysseus, the Greek gods and goddesses, one-eyed giants and monsters as literal fact simply because the story depicts geographic locations accurately? Of course not. The authors of mythical stories, fictions, and novels almost always use familiar landmarks as placements for their stories. The authors of the Greek tragedies not only put their stories in plausible settings as happening in the real world but their supernatural characters took on the desires, flaws and failures of mortal human beings. Consider that fictions such as King Kong, Superman, and Star Trek include recognizable cities, planets, and landmarks, with their protagonists and antagonists miming human emotions.

Likewise, just because the Gospels mention cities and locations in Judea, and known historical people, with Jesus behaving like an actual human being (with the added dimension of supernatural curses, miracles, etc.) but this says nothing about the actuality of the characters portrayed in the stories. However, when a story uses impossible historical locations, or geographical errors, we may question the authority of the claims.

For example, in Matt 4:8, the author describes the devil taking Jesus into an exceedingly high mountain to show him all the kingdoms of the world. Since there exists no spot on the spheroid earth to view "all the kingdoms," we know that the Bible errs here.

John 12:21 says, "The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee. . . ." Bethsaida resided in Gaulonitis (Golan region), east of the Jordan river, not Galilee, which resided west of the river.

John 3:23 says, "John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim. . . ." Critics agree that no such place as Aenon exists near Salim.

No one has evidence for a city named Nazareth at the time of the alleged Jesus. [Gauvin] Nazareth does not appear in the Old Testament, nor does it appear in the volumes of Josephus's writings (even though he provides a list of cities in Galilee). Oddly, none of the New Testament epistle writers ever mentions Nazareth or a Jesus of Nazareth even though most of the epistles appeared before the gospels. In fact no one mentions Nazareth until the Gospels, where the first one didn't come into existence until about 40 years after the alleged death of Jesus. If a city named Nazareth existed during the 1st century, then we need at least one contemporary piece of evidence for the name, otherwise we cannot refer to it as established history. Many historians do not agree with this of course. Some think Nazareth existed, some don't think it existed, and some remain skeptical, but the fact that historians still debate it should tell you that that we should not use this uncertainly as a certainty. Moreover, some scholars think it as a moot point because they believe "Nazareth" refers to a Christian movement, not a city. For one example, Acts 24:5 refers to a sect of the Nazarenes. The Gospel writers then might have confused the term to mean the city (which by the time they wrote the gospels, a city did exist with that name). We have a lot of educated guesses by scholars, but no certainity.

Many more kinds of errors and uncertainties like this appear in the New Testament. And although one cannot use these as evidence against a historical Jesus, we can certainly question the reliability of the texts. If the scriptures make so many factual errors about geology, science, and contain so many contradictions, falsehoods could occur any in area.

If we have a coupling with historical people and locations, then we should also have some historical reference of a Jesus to these locations and people. But just the opposite proves the case. The Bible depicts Herod, the Ruler of Jewish Palestine under Rome as sending out men to search and kill the infant Jesus, yet nothing in history supports such a story. Pontius Pilate supposedly performed as judge in the trial and execution of Jesus, yet no Roman record mentions such a trial. The gospels portray a multitude of believers throughout the land spreading tales of a teacher, prophet, and healer, yet nobody in Jesus' life time or years after, ever records such a human figure. The lack of a historical Jesus in the known historical record speaks for itself.

[MrsKellyPierce]

CONCLUSION

Belief cannot produce historical fact, and claims that come from nothing but hearsay do not amount to an honest attempt to get at the facts. Even with eyewitness accounts we must tread carefully. Simply because someone makes a claim, does not mean it represents reality. For example, consider some of the bogus claims that supposedly come from many eyewitness accounts of alien extraterrestrials and their space craft. They not only assert eyewitnesses but present blurry photos to boot! If we can question these accounts, then why should we not question claims that come from hearsay even more? Moreover, consider that the hearsay comes from ancient and unknown people that no longer live.

Unfortunately, belief and faith substitute as knowledge in many people's minds and nothing, even direct evidence thrust on the feet of their claims, could possibly change their minds. We have many stories, myths and beliefs of a Jesus but if we wish to establish the facts of history, we cannot even begin to put together a knowledgeable account without at least a few reliable eyewitness accounts.

Of course a historical Jesus may have existed, perhaps based loosely on a living human even though his actual history got lost, but this amounts to nothing but speculation. However we do have an abundance of evidence supporting the mythical evolution of Jesus. Virtually every detail in the gospel stories occurred in pagan and/or Hebrew stories, long before the advent of Christianity. We simply do not have a shred of evidence to determine the historicity of a Jesus "the Christ." We only have evidence for the belief of Jesus.

So if you hear anyone who claims to have evidence for a witness of a historical Jesus, simply ask for the author's birth date. Anyone whose birth occurred after an event cannot serve as an eyewitness, nor can their words alone serve as evidence for that event.

[EvonRose]

It's kinda like saying prove me Julius Cesar lived and don't use roman evidence...

The thing about Jesus is the evidence come from all part of that region...

It is documented, He was put in place of historic people, who have placed him under their life...

So that's kinda discrediting a life of a historian proven fact... If jesus didn't exist, then they all didn't exist...

The man that was believed to be jesus was buried in a tomb, documented and proven also...

And it was also documented that his body was stolen in realistic point of view, or risen from the dead in religious point of view..

The fact that history documented his body was no longer there, matched what the roman, christians, Jews all documented...

Not every historical figures have a birth date, some even unknown but have been proven famous historic figures...

You also cannot be ignorant enough to ignore many documented facts, that is better proof than not believing it just because you don't believe in a god.

[buttslinger]

Before the Big Bang, the Universe was the size of a softball. Although it was finite, it had no edges. It is written.

[MrsKellyPierce]

It's kinda like saying prove me Julius Cesar lived and don't use roman evidence...

The thing about Jesus is the evidence come from all part of that region...

It is documented, He was put in place of historic people, who have placed him under their life...

So that's kinda discrediting a life of a historian proven fact... If jesus didn't exist, then they all didn't exist...

The man that was believed to be jesus was buried in a tomb, documented and proven also...

And it was also documented that his body was stolen in realistic point of view, or risen from the dead in religious point of view..

The fact that history documented his body was no longer there, matched what the roman, christians, Jews all documented...

Not every historical figures have a birth date, some even unknown but have been proven famous historic figures...

You also cannot be ignorant enough to ignore many documented facts, that is better proof than not believing it just because you don't believe in a god.Again what proof?

[EvonRose]

Again what proof?

It is well documented that Jesus from Jerusalem was a teacher and lead people.

They had found a tomb of bones that in scripted "James the son of Joseph, brother of Jesus...

it was documented that Joseph was the father of Jesus and after Jesus Mary and Joseph had other children after...

James was thought to be the half brother of Jesus.

Again it's not like you can prove he does not exist, you can only discredit. But that does not mean the documents are false.

I have more reasons to believe he existed with evidence and documents given as oppose to saying it's a fairy tale...

Then that means everyone in the bible an every event is a fairytale, which by the way is proven to be not true since many people and events in the bible actually did happen according to historians and have proven it. And many famous philosophers and Historians match the events of the documented life of Jesus...

You can't have every physical proof, every picture. If someone was to document the 911 thousands of years after the world would completely change... There won't be hard physical evidence, you only have the documents to go by... And it is their job to find other documents to match what the other documents say...

And if they have over thousand of people documenting the 911, obviously something happened...

[Tyler___Durden]

kelly said Jesus didn't exist, while many more superior historians and scientist Can prove her wrong with that statement.
Yes,100% I can:

Jesus was a black man
No Jesus was Batman
No, no, no, no, not at all
That was Bruce Wayne

Kelly's hero's, by Black Grape.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHvcSjGpIuY

[EvonRose]

Yes,100% I can:

Jesus was a black man
No Jesus was Batman
No, no, no, no, not at all
That was Bruce Wayne

Kelly's hero's, by Black Grape.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHvcSjGpIuY


If god is a DJ then life is a dance floor....

[EvonRose]

I mean you can come back and forth about trying to discredit documents...

It is said only very little Historians question His existence, But it's not like they came up with any evidence that Jesus didn't exist either...

If they can prove that thousands of those Roman, Jews, Christian, Asia minor people, Even many of Jesus's enemies documents were are false and lies then you have a good case.

However everything that's been brought to the table are just facts and evidence that are being discredited with no valid reason...

By the evidence I gather, Jesus was a human who live at one time... Was he the messiah, or risen from the dead? Well that's where I can question it...

But documents when gathered wisely are facts in itself...

[doctor screw]

WOW

Geniuses(sarcasm)

[mathematics1900]

I never said a reason for why you edited your post. I don't care what your reasons were. All I said was that my response was made before I read your edit.

It was a question, it wasn't a statement, why are you telling me you didn't give a reason? There was no edit, that is the point, your ego is hurt.


So talking about overlooking details, why is it you ignored this whole part of my last post? Is it because that couldn't be milked for extra BS?

If you're not a troll, you're a douche. And both are equally tedious and predictable.

I didn't ignore the last part of your post, I addressed it. I never disagreed with that statement, just pointed out that you're a fucking moron for thinking I would edit a post and then go through all this just to what, make no point at all? It should be sinking in now why me editing the post for no gain, and even for no real trolling, is irrational. Now, since you are unable to accept the fact that I didn't edit my post, this just let's me know that you are the douche, not myself, and you are the troll, so I shall call you douche troll.


I hope you all appreciate the way I don't let severe and fundamental scientific reservations,
get in the way of me putting up a good post.

Man, I really wish I could of replied to that guy, how shallow of a thinker. Does he really expect all ideas to just pop out of your head in a peer reviewed scientific journal? Gravity, originated with a single moment of curiosity, what brings the apple to the ground? I think the work this guy is doing is simply asking questions, posing ideas, and gathering information so that further investigation can take place. Ugh, this is my problem with the science community they are so limited in their scope of the world.


Oh, more on men who Pay-date Ts escorts.
I just said to my man that all the guys who visit me, identify as straight.
His response: "There's only one thing straight about your clients and it pokes out of their trousers!"
I replied: "So where does that put you, sweety?"
"Oh, ...well there is that."

This just blows my mind that he would even say that, it reminds me of the older generations back in the 60's and 70's who criticized the youth for listening to rock music, and now that same younger generation is now criticizing the youth for things like radicalism with sex and music. People will never be able to see the big picture I feel!

[Tyler___Durden]

If god is a DJ then life is a dance floor....
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/smile.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[catherinefan]

If that makes me immature and stupid then so is Einstein... And in my opinion Einstein has the credit of being a genius and you don't..


Ah yes, Einstein! Wasn't he also the one who said "it's all relative"? Just imagine, Evon, if the Spanish would not have conquered the Philippines many years ago, you may not even have heard of this man called Jesus. And look at you now!

Well, he may well have existed once. But please don't tell us you also have tons of evidence on the way he was conceived!

[EvonRose]

Ah yes, Einstein! Wasn't he also the one who said "it's all relative"? Just imagine, Evon, if the Spanish would not have conquered the Philippines many years ago, you may not even have heard of this man called Jesus. And look at you now!

Well, he may well have existed once. But please don't tell us you also have tons of evidence on the way he was conceived!

Well, I believe my points are from realistic point of view... I am not claiming supernatural... But of r a man to exist simply in historical events with documented facts is realistic...

Jesus is believed by many to exist not just christians.

Many Fillipinos are buddhist, and muslims... So huh?

Im spanish, Fillipino/ English, with Greek descent... would have heard of jesus one way or another.

[catherinefan]

Well, I believe my points are from realistic point of view... I am not claiming supernatural... But of r a man to exist simply in historical events with documented facts is realistic...

Jesus is believed by many to exist not just christians.

Many Fillipinos are buddhist, and muslims... So huh?

Im spanish, Fillipino/ English, with Greek descent... would have heard of jesus one way or another.


Not that many. The Philippines is known to be 98% Roman Catholic!

But I'm not trying to take away your belief, Evon. I was a member of the Catholic church myself once. Still am as a matter of fact. Must remember to sign out soon.

[EvonRose]

Not that many. The Philippines is known to be 98% Roman Catholic!

But I'm not trying to take away your belief, Evon. I was a member of the Catholic church myself once. Still am as a matter of fact. Must remember to sign out soon.

It's 80% percent with with half don't even practice properly...

And why assume I am part of the Roman Catholic?

I am protestant consisting only 2.8 percent, I am Eurasian...

[Nicole Dupre]

Tyler Durden actually posted a rather mind blowing video; Authors@Google: Ogi Ogas - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4). The man libido I believe doesn't register things as female, or male, I believe male libido is simply either on, or off. Which is why men were able to be sent into a frenzy at seeing a woman's ankle back in the day.

After reading a little about that syndrome, I am not sure if they would be able to do anything besides hormone treatments to send you one way or the other. Do they actually talk about any treatments for the syndrome or is it just a, take it as is condition?


The perception of me as female in the man's... I dunno what you want to call it... "gend-ar"? He perceives me as female, and females who look like me give him a boner. Ok? So his "gend-ar" and libido concur that I am hot punani. And that's what his wiener is going on. That's the best I can explain it. Gay men don't want to fuck me, as far as I know. I've hung out with hundreds of gay men, and we don't have that sexual spark. I wouldn't want that spark to be there anyway if it's not meant to be anyway. I had a BF before I went fulltime. He accepted me as a very fem queer. He identified as being a gay man, himself. But when I told him I was taking hormones, getting tits eventually, changing my name to the name my mom had picked out for me had I been born a girl, and basically flushing my history as a "male" down the toilet, he dumped me. He preferred that I remain a peacock of a faggot. And I was a peacock. lol I had a liberty spike mohawk over a foot tall, I wore makeup all the time, wore skirts, heels, got my nails done, etc. I was a lot like what you see in the femme boy threads on here. I was "genderfuct".But I had no implants. I went by my male name. I was a gay boy, and I stuck out like a sore thumb. lol

[Nicole Dupre]

And Klinefelter's, which I've been told I probably have, is generally treatable by just being yourself. lol In my case, it's being a female. But there's nothing I can do about having XXY chromosomes. But I plan on getting the karyotype test eventually and finding out once and for all. Not that it would change much tho'.

[mathematics1900]

The perception of me as female in the man's... I dunno what you want to call it... "gend-ar"? He perceives me as female, and females who look like me give him a boner. Ok? So his "gend-ar" and libido concur that I am hot punani. And that's what his wiener is going on. That's the best I can explain it. Gay men don't want to fuck me, as far as I know. I've hung out with hundreds of gay men, and we don't have that sexual spark. I wouldn't want that spark to be there anyway if it's not meant to be anyway. I had a BF before I went fulltime. He accepted me as a very fem queer. He identified as being a gay man, himself. But when I told him I was taking hormones, getting tits eventually, changing my name to the name my mom had picked out for me had I been born a girl, and basically flushing my history as a "male" down the toilet, he dumped me. He preferred that I remain a peacock of a faggot. And I was a peacock. lol I had a liberty spike mohawk over a foot tall, I wore makeup all the time, wore skirts, heels, got my nails done, etc. I was a lot like what you see in the femme boy threads on here. I was "genderfuct".But I had no implants. I went by my male name. I was a gay boy, and I stuck out like a sore thumb. lol

I hate to throw a wrench into your theory, but men can get their dicks hard to fuck goats, dogs, dolphins, and even men when they themselves aren't homosexual. There is a lot we don't know about the mechanisms of the brain and to argue about gender to me is really a moot point, most tgirls on here want to be called women, but they unfortunately don't fit into that box. There is a check list in everyone's mind and you might hit 9 of 10 check marks, but unless you hit all 10 you're not admitted. This is why I liked that another tgirl on here suggested when people clock her in public, she acknowledges that yes, I am a tgirl, no I am not a genetic girl. This in my opinion is the first step in changing how accepted tgirls are in the mainstream, the sad fact though is that the gay community think they are somehow better, and the lesbian community, oh shit, don't get me started. It is an underlying issue in our society that doesn't have anything to do with sexuality, or who you are, it is a bigger idea than that, the idea that human beings are still so cruel to each other.

And Klinefelter's, which I've been told I probably have, is generally treatable by just being yourself. lol In my case, it's being a female. But there's nothing I can do about having XXY chromosomes. But I plan on getting the karyotype test eventually and finding out once and for all. Not that it would change much tho'.

So you never took any hormones?

[buttslinger]

men can get their dicks hard to fuck goats, dogs, dolphins, and even men when they themselves aren't homosexual.

Are you from Texas?

[mathematics1900]

Are you from Texas?

No New Zealand, is there a lot of animal sex in Texas too?