Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Attack

[trish]

Most people here at HA know that I’m an atheist. Just read some of threads in the Religion and Politics section to see me and Stavros have at each other on this issue. We atheists think we’re right too. You can find us occasionally lamenting, “If only everybody gave up their religious mumbo-jumbo and saw the world through the keen, cool eyes of reason.” But that’s nonsense too. For even if we adequately answer the question of ontology, the issue of how to establish what constitutes moral and ethical behavior remains. The other guy, what he believes, how she dresses, how they behave is always the problem. “Hell is other people,” says Jean-Paul Sartre and twentieth-century existentialist, atheist philosopher who thought violence was necessary to pave the way for a communist revolution. Albert Camus, also an atheist and an existentialist broke with Sartre over this issue. He was a leader in the French Underground during the war and saw his share of mayhem.

We just have to learn respect and tolerate one another. Thanks to the First Amendment, America is one of the places where people can and do learn to adjust to each other and live with each other.

But having this argument here, in this thread, is far far afield. Omar Mateen was not a radical Islamist. Although in the last minutes of his life he credited ISIS with the murders he committed, he was not ISIS. Investigators are telling us he was confused about his sexuality. He visited the Pulse and other gay clubs for a number of years. He used a gay dating app. He likely never came out to his family because his father was a homophobe. Thinking he could be cured, he probably tried to take refuge in religion. His online searches lead him to not only ISIS, but Hezbolah and Al Qaeda. All sworn enemies of each other. Yet Omar took the hatred each had to offer (without becoming a member of any - which is why the FBI lost interest in him) and turned it toward himself. But religion is not the whole story. Omar deliberately chose Latino Night for his attack. His was a hate crime; a hate crime against himself, gays and latinos. It is no coincidence that this tragedy occurred at the moment when anti-gay, anti-latino and anti-muslim sentiment is loudly proclaimed by angry mobs and pundits everyday. His father, his religion and society were all dishing out hatred, all telling him he was unnatural, that he didn’t blend in. Notice, that Islam is not a necessary element of element of this story. We could easily tell the same story with almost any other religion taking the place of Islam. We could even tell a atheistic story where Omar hates himself because some bizarre naturalist theory tells him and his father that being gay is wrong because species need to reproduce or go extinct.

The shooter went off the deep end, not because of his beliefs but because he was pushed in that direction from every direction he turned. We might not be able to avoid every tragedy, but we could stop pushing people around. We could stop building walls, stop manufacturing assault weapons, stop manufacturing hate 24/7 and listen.

Remember the people who suffered and died this week were at The Pulse because it was a place where they felt they belonged; a place where they did in fact blend in - if nowhere else.

[bruce_willy]

Fundamentally, the Muslim religion is one of hospitality and peace. Unfortunatly, it has been subverted by a minority of fanatics who are as abhorant to true Muslims as they are to the rest of the world.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! Did Hillary Clinton tell you that?

[bruce_willy]

[bruce_willy]

Most people here at HA know that I’m an atheist. Just read some of threads in the Religion and Politics section to see me and Stavros have at each other on this issue. We atheists think we’re right too. You can find us occasionally lamenting, “If only everybody gave up their religious mumbo-jumbo and saw the world through the keen, cool eyes of reason.” But that’s nonsense too. For even if we adequately answer the question of ontology, the issue of how to establish what constitutes moral and ethical behavior remains. The other guy, what he believes, how she dresses, how they behave is always the problem. “Hell is other people,” says Jean-Paul Sartre and twentieth-century existentialist, atheist philosopher who thought violence was necessary to pave the way for a communist revolution. Albert Camus, also an atheist and an existentialist broke with Sartre over this issue. He was a leader in the French Underground during the war and saw his share of mayhem.

We just have to learn respect and tolerate one another. Thanks to the First Amendment, America is one of the places where people can and do learn to adjust to each other and live with each other.

But having this argument here, in this thread, is far far afield. Omar Mateen was not a radical Islamist. Although in the last minutes of his life he credited ISIS with the murders he committed, he was not ISIS. Investigators are telling us he was confused about his sexuality. He visited the Pulse and other gay clubs for a number of years. He used a gay dating app. He likely never came out to his family because his father was a homophobe. Thinking he could be cured, he probably tried to take refuge in religion. His online searches lead him to not only ISIS, but Hezbolah and Al Qaeda. All sworn enemies of each other. Yet Omar took the hatred each had to offer (without becoming a member of any - which is why the FBI lost interest in him) and turned it toward himself. But religion is not the whole story. Omar deliberately chose Latino Night for his attack. His was a hate crime; a hate crime against himself, gays and latinos. It is no coincidence that this tragedy occurred at the moment when anti-gay, anti-latino and anti-muslim sentiment is loudly proclaimed by angry mobs and pundits everyday. His father, his religion and society were all dishing out hatred, all telling him he was unnatural, that he didn’t blend in. Notice, that Islam is not a necessary element of element of this story. We could easily tell the same story with almost any other religion taking the place of Islam. We could even tell a atheistic story where Omar hates himself because some bizarre naturalist theory tells him and his father that being gay is wrong because species need to reproduce or go extinct.

The shooter went off the deep end, not because of his beliefs but because he was pushed in that direction from every direction he turned. We might not be able to avoid every tragedy, but we could stop pushing people around. We could stop building walls, stop manufacturing assault weapons, stop manufacturing hate 24/7 and listen.

Remember the people who suffered and died this week were at The Pulse because it was a place where they felt they belonged; a place where they did in fact blend in - if nowhere else.

So what you are saying is the feeble minded concept of 'why can't we all just get along'?

Well we can't. That's just the way life works. Sorry you cannot understand that.

[trish]

No, I didn't ask that question. In fact, I believe I explained in the first paragraph that we probably never will all get along and that not even reasonable people will ever agree on how we should structure our society. I'm merely suggesting that the bruce-willys of the world could stretch their minds a little more and hate a little less. I know...you think you can't...but you can.

[ilove2swallow]

I am a non believer, but am very happy I was raised Christian.

[Laphroaig]

Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...739301/?no-ist

Civilizations develop at different rates. At various times, similar things could have been said about us Brits by the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, etc. Civilizations and Empires grow and dissapear. Americas influence on the world has peaked and is now slowly on the wane. Time will tell whether this is a positive or negative effect.

The Mongols were in not too dissimilar a position to the American Indians, before Ghenhis united the tribes. He and his decendents then went on to do great and terrible things. Arguably, only luck and timing prevented them from adding Western Europe to their list of conquests. They withdrew, not through defeat, but due to the news of the death of Ghengis himself back home. The whole world would be a very different place, but for that.

Who knows how the American Indians would have developed without outside interferences? Since they've been intruduced to Western culture, we've had World War 1 and 2, mass murders via gas chambers, Vietnam, etc, etc. Is that really an improvement?

[filghy2]

According to several press reports, more American were shot by toddlers last year than by terrorists http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjam...b_8650536.html
Maybe we should ban gunowners from having kids until we work out what is going on.

[Ts RedVeX]

No. That would jeopardise the potential income from various taxes which the surviving children may be paying in future.

[Gillian]

No, I didn't ask that question. In fact, I believe I explained in the first paragraph that we probably never will all get along and that not even reasonable people will ever agree on how we should structure our society. I'm merely suggesting that the bruce-willys of the world could stretch their minds a little more and hate a little less. I know...you think you can't...but you can.

I think that in this and your earlier post you've pretty much nailed it.

Societies need a moral code and traditionally religions have provided one, but there's no reason why we can't all agree a secular one.

Tolerance, but within rules would be something to aspire to ...