Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Attack

[Ben in LA]

I can't believe I typed "expacts" instead of "expats". Oh well...they're IMMIGRANTS.

[MrFanti]

As a Black person myself, I would debate that some of our issues are self-inflicted - and this is all that I'm going to say.

Getting back on topic to Orlando. One LGBT person killed by a knife (or dying by being beat-up) is too many - attitude and belief changes are the only way to prevent this.

Attitudes and beliefs can indeed change but in a democratic society those changes often need to be protected, for the debate that lay behind the change and the achievemets not to end. In the US, Jim Crow continues to smear and to segregate but in different ways -per head of population in the US, more Black Americans than any other citizens are denied their freedom because they are in prison; and consider millions of Black Americans shut out of the democratic process because they are denied the right to register to vote. Then add in the attempt to roll back many of the gains in civil liberty that Americans believed they had secured as a consequence of the Civil Rights movement, and you may realise that every generation needs to maintain its faith in its achievements, or risk losing them to those who were and still are opposed to them.

[dc_guy_75]

If you wander through Lancaster or York Counties in Pennsylvania (or some places in rural Ohio, Illinois and elsewhere) you will find men, women and children dressed in Amish garb. The women wear long black (or darkly colored dresses and white bonnets even in the hot summer months. The men wear long black pants and beards. You want them to fuck themselves because they don't blend in and don't care to blend in? How about the Hasidic Jews in New York? I grew up not blending and not fitting in. Okay, I might fuck myself, but I'm not leaving. You can go fuck yourself.

All of us - citizens and immigrants, religious or not - are obligated to respect one another and obey the laws of the land. We do not kick people out based on bigoted presumptions of what they might do because they don't blend in.

Both the Amish and Hasidic Jews are religious extremists, and you're saying we're obligated to respect them? Why should their demented delusions be respected?

At least they aren't slaughtering people, and at least they don't venerate a child-molesting, illiterate, Arab warlord, right?

Regardless, if neither the Amish nor Hasidic Jews nor Muslims were ever allowed to immigrate, America would be doing just fine without them.

[Laphroaig]

If random Hindus travel and settle 10k miles away, while wearing their native garb, and attempting to live in the US, they can go fuck themselves. They should adapt to their adopted culture, wherever that may be.



In summary, if you can't (or refuse) to adapt to Western culture, please leave. If you refuse, the end awaits.

Did the original Western settlers adopt the culture of the NATIVE American Indians? Did they fuck themselves or leave because they didn't? No, they IMPORTED Western culture to the country.

Regardless, if neither the Amish nor Hasidic Jews nor Muslims were ever allowed to immigrate, America would be doing just fine without them.

America is a nation of immigrants (including yourself or your ancestors) and a constantly changing melting pot of different cultures. That's what many find so exciting and vibrant about the USA, it breeds creativity. The downside is that with such a mixture, friction will inevitably happen on occasions.

The NATIVE American Indians would be doing fine without Western immigrants...

[dc_guy_75]

Did the original Western settlers adopt the culture of the NATIVE American Indians? Did they fuck themselves or leave because they didn't? No, they IMPORTED Western culture to the country.

America is a nation of immigrants (including yourself or your ancestors) and a constantly changing melting pot of different cultures. That's what many find so exciting and vibrant about the USA, it breeds creativity. The downside is that with such a mixture, friction will inevitably happen on occasions.

The NATIVE American Indians would be doing fine without Western immigrants...

Western settlers didn't adapt to local traditions, they took over. Similarly, its difficult for many Muslims to adapt to Western traditions. And why should they? They believe their religion is the only 'true' religion, and they look down at all other religious delusions.

Muslims should remain in whatever shithole country they live in now, it's simply foolish to allow them to migrate to Western countries. Damage has already been done by letting so many migrate already, and we need to stop the bleeding.

While Native Americans would surely be better off without the Western invasion, if they were left alone by European nations, the Chinese would've eventually invaded from the opposite coast. Even if Native Americans were fully left alone, they would still be in the stone age, without written language, without domesticated animals, with a sky-high infant mortality rate, living a subsistance existence. North America in 1491 was the equivalent of Europe in 10,000 BC.

[bruce_willy]

The NATIVE American Indians would be doing fine without Western immigrants...

Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...739301/?no-ist

[broncofan]

Both the Amish and Hasidic Jews are religious extremists, and you're saying we're obligated to respect them? Why should their demented delusions be respected?

I want to partially agree and partially disagree. I am a secular Jew who has lived near Hasidic Jews and they are not very good neighbors. They are insular and not very friendly and that's not the American ideal in terms of assimilation. For obvious reasons I don't have much experience with the Amish, but have watched the movie Kingpin...

But while we don't have to respect their beliefs, we do have to respect their civil rights. I am concerned about Islamic radicals, but it does not help to recommend a purge of Muslims. There are people on this thread saying stuff like, "Islam is incompatible with democratic society", but we have millions of law-abiding Muslims in this country and of the mass shootings we've seen in recent years I don't believe a significant percent have been performed by Islamic fundamentalists.

It also doesn't help to label someone like Sadiq Khan as an Islamic extremist as someone did. He is Muslim and his views are quite moderate. Any attempt to paint him as otherwise are obviously based on stereotyping. I have not vetted his entire past but any Muslim who flies a rainbow flag is very obviously not a fundamentalist.

I also think the problem of reconciling religious beliefs with secular values is something that is not just a difficulty for Muslims. Native Americans want to use peyote for religious ceremonies, certain Hasidic Jews want to perform extremely unhygienic practices during circumcision, and some Christians honestly think that opening their businesses to gay men and women violates their right to freely practice their religion, which it doesn't under the court's current reading of the free exercise clause.

That doesn't mean that Muslim extremists (I'm talking about a subset; I'm not saying all Muslims are extremists) do not present a problem for secular values, as they promote a complex of homophobic and misogynistic views. But we cannot turn the lives of millions of people upside down in a search for those who threaten attacks.

We have a tradition in this country of equal protection under the law, which means that you are going to need more than religious affiliation to target someone. And you also need more than homophobia or misogyny in the abstract to arrest someone. And as several people have pointed out, you have a lot of the same doctrines in Judaism and Christianity.

The FBI is going to have to do what they have been doing: namely targeting people who are members of terrorist groups or advocating for attacks against our institutions or people.

[broncofan]

Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...739301/?no-ist

So, they are better off being displaced on a continent they once dwelt in freely? Come on.

[Laphroaig]

Western settlers didn't adapt to local traditions, they took over. Similarly, its difficult for many Muslims to adapt to Western traditions. And why should they? They believe their religion is the only 'true' religion, and they look down at all other religious delusions.

Muslims should remain in whatever shithole country they live in now, it's simply foolish to allow them to migrate to Western countries. Damage has already been done by letting so many migrate already, and we need to stop the bleeding.

While Native Americans would surely be better off without the Western invasion, if they were left alone by European nations, the Chinese would've eventually invaded from the opposite coast. Even if Native Americans were fully left alone, they would still be in the stone age, without written language, without domesticated animals, with a sky-high infant mortality rate, living a subsistance existence. North America in 1491 was the equivalent of Europe in 10,000 BC.

Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...739301/?no-ist

Both of you are somewhat missing the points that I'm making.

1. America is already a nation of immigrants including yourselves.

2. You seem to think it's fine for Westeners to invade and destroy other cultures, rather than adapt and blend in.

Fundamentally, the Muslim religion is one of hospitality and peace. Unfortunatly, it has been subverted by a minority of fanatics who are as abhorant to true Muslims as they are to the rest of the world.

Read theough the history of the Crucades and tell me who the good/bad guys were, the Western Christian Knights or the Eastern Muslims?

[EZWind]

... its difficult for many Muslims to adapt to Western traditions. And why should they? They believe their religion is the only 'true' religion, and they look down at all other religious delusions. ....

....That's funny, I always thought the Roman Catholics thought THEIRS was the one true religion. For that matter so does every other religion...they all think they hold the keys to Heaven and any others are non-believers, heretics and infidels.
...Catholics are murdering doctors and blowing up health clinics and raping altar boys in the name of Jesus....let's get rid of them too while we're at it
...Bottom line...ALL religion is delusional. There is no magic playground up in the sky somewhere where you go when you're dead and everything is peachy keen...certainly no concrete evidence of it anyway