Classical Music, Poetry and stuff

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Some of the aleatoric music of John Cage (for example Five Stone Wind) though atonal, can be pensive and restful.

To be controversial for once (!) I think John Cage should be re-classified as a sound engineer, not a composer. All music is sound, but not all sound is music, not that he knew much about it. If he is a composer, he is a fraud; if he is a sound engineer he plays around with musical instruments, electronics, sounds, silent intervals (sometimes lasting 4' 33") and contributed nothing to modern music. Allow me to sum up John Cage in his own words:
I have nothing to say
and I am saying it

So there! Webern, on the other hand, I can listen to. Such a tragic death.

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Well, to each his own taste__though I do think you succeeded in being controversial.

I agree that not all sound is music. But I also agree with Proust, "The voyage of discovery is not seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." If you hear it has music, it has become music. A composer is simply one who creates "blue prints" that function to guide musicians in musical performance. I think most musicologists count Cage as a composer. One may think his compositions suck, but that's another matter.

So what about the claim, "If he was a composer, then he was a fraud?" Given that musicologists are right and Cage was a composer, this claim would have us conclude he was also a fraud. But were Cage a fraud, then he would have intended to deceive. I see no reason to be so uncharitable. I would simply say, there's a lot of Cage compositions that fail and there are a lot that are successful.

YouTube - ‪Suite for Toy Piano - John Cage‬‏

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Originally Posted by robertlouis

If there's any English in me it must predate 1720, and previous to that year the family name was Swedish, so I doubt it.

Hell of an insult, Prospero. You should know better.

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I apologise -

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Originally Posted by Prospero

I apologise -

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Apology accepted. You are a true English gentleman.

But were Cage a fraud, then he would have intended to deceive
Trish I accept your criticism that my use of the word 'fraud' is inaccurate in the literal sense of the word -but I am not going to apologise for that; it has pejorative clout. Cage took music away from music -from its comfortable niche, I concede that- and into the world of sound, experimentation with the hardware -prepared pianos and all that. I don't object to it, I think its valid, I am a man of diverse tastes -but the result? 'Seeing' music with new eyes when encountering Cage? I get no pleasure from listening to it, and only a temporary fascination with what sounds can be generated when you stick a coke bottle in a Steinway and smash it with a silver hammer while playing Fur Elise...
But what happens when you get to the stage 'piece' for ballet which Cage 'prepared' [surely not composed?] with Merce Cunningham but where there is, in the literal sense of the word, no music, just the two of them on stage talking about their sexual history: sound, not music.

A composer is simply one who creates "blue prints" that function to guide musicians in musical performance
I can't agree with this: it is true that a lot of composers don't provide metronome markings or full technical specs, but a lot of players and conductors ignore the ones composers do provide, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the notes are there -for a reason. A waltz is not a tango, and I am sure some of us have heard old recordings of Bach where a Gigue sounded more like a marche funebre. And yes, in a way every performance is an experiment, but its not Jazz where a musician can take a tune like My Favourite Things and improvise on it.

Cage was creative, and his contribution lay in exposing the essential chaos that exists in the heart of music; but other than showing us what it sounds like, and failing to do much else, he remains an historical curiosity, the Heath Robinson of sound.

I saw this extract from a book review in the New York Times, a description of a sexual act that amazed me as I coudn't understand it...

he captained her onto the pillowy pier of her Posturepedic

the link is here
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/bo...eview.html?hpw

In the design business I am told that those who come up with stupid and pretentious ideas are labelled as "design wankers." I think this is a journalist example of the same - a candidate for pseuds corner. You sort of get the meaning but ....

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Originally Posted by Stavros

But were Cage a fraud, then he would have intended to deceive
Trish I accept your criticism that my use of the word 'fraud' is inaccurate in the literal sense of the word -but I am not going to apologise for that; it has pejorative clout. Cage took music away from music -from its comfortable niche, I concede that- and into the world of sound, experimentation with the hardware -prepared pianos and all that. I don't object to it, I think its valid, I am a man of diverse tastes -but the result? 'Seeing' music with new eyes when encountering Cage? I get no pleasure from listening to it, and only a temporary fascination with what sounds can be generated when you stick a coke bottle in a Steinway and smash it with a silver hammer while playing Fur Elise...
But what happens when you get to the stage 'piece' for ballet which Cage 'prepared' [surely not composed?] with Merce Cunningham but where there is, in the literal sense of the word, no music, just the two of them on stage talking about their sexual history: sound, not music.

A composer is simply one who creates "blue prints" that function to guide musicians in musical performance
I can't agree with this: it is true that a lot of composers don't provide metronome markings or full technical specs, but a lot of players and conductors ignore the ones composers do provide, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the notes are there -for a reason. A waltz is not a tango, and I am sure some of us have heard old recordings of Bach where a Gigue sounded more like a marche funebre. And yes, in a way every performance is an experiment, but its not Jazz where a musician can take a tune like My Favourite Things and improvise on it.

Cage was creative, and his contribution lay in exposing the essential chaos that exists in the heart of music; but other than showing us what it sounds like, and failing to do much else, he remains an historical curiosity, the Heath Robinson of sound.

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Ive enjoyed listening to cage, the discussion here seems to be the definition of music and composition...i for instance love the didgeridoo, and music for didgeridoo are indeed compositions, the rules and meanings are different, even the purpose, but i still call it music

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Sorry Birgitta, canto ostinato sounds like the repetitive emptiness of Michael Nyman in The Piano...if you want something with more depth and imagination, the Koln Concerts Keith Jarret recorded in the 1970s are worth listening to (there are three segments on youtube), you need to immerse yourself in all three, love it or hate it. Jarret is one of the few musicians who can cross boundaries without controversy although I think that people who either play an instrument or have experienced live music from an early age appreciate the best in most genres, and he is one of the rare people who can play more or less anything...

YouTube - ‪Keith Jarrett Köln Concert - Part 1 1 / 3‬‏

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Yyyyyy

Did you listen to it as a whole and played it (for 8 hours long ? ) A few of my best friends plays the piano from childhood on and really appreciate the piece......think u just exposed yourself lol...its a difficult peace to play....prr

But lol u also called baroque 'predictable' while its music written for musicians and singers with such virtuosity ...so i guess its not suprising that you call this repetitive emptyness...

Bla bla ! Thats what i hear, start to try to play these pieces....baroque 'predictable' lol !

Birgitta I have already said I love Baroque music, what I meant when I said it was predictable is that when it is not at its best it follows a predictable formula -composers who wrote for money often had to produce something quickly and re-cycled existing ideas -I did not dismiss the Baroque tout court.

Canto ostinato for a few minutes was as much as I could take, life is too short for me to spend eight hours listening to something that does nothing for me. I was kept waiting in an office for an hour yesterday during which all I had to read was the local paper, and I was mightily pissed off -eight hours of music I don't like sounds like an abuse of my human rights.

We usually agree on music generally, if not the details, lets leave it like that.

Music hath charms to cool the savage breast... so let it be a balm between you. "If music be the food of love, play on...."

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Music hath charms to cool the savage breast... so let it be a balm between you. "If music be the food of love, play on...."

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Just a friendly stoking of the flames....

In Cage's case "If music be the food of love, prepare for a long night on the toilet......"

Unless you listen to 4' 33"

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Unless you listen to 4' 33"

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Sorry, I was confusing him with Stockhausen. :twisted::twisted::twisted:

Didn't he do a version of "Such Sweet Thunder" - Duke Ellington's great Shakespearian jazz suite, scored for jackhammer and moog?

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Didn't he do a version of "Such Sweet Thunder" - Duke Ellington's great Shakespearian jazz suite, scored for jackhammer and moog?

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No-one, but no-one, should ever tamper with the Duke's compositions.

He's in the glorious quartet of American composers of the 20th century with Gershwin, Copland, and Ives

agreed

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Originally Posted by Prospero

agreed

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With Oscar Petersen, Miles Davis and Art Tatum leading the second rank.

Hmmmm... I'd put Dylan in there somewhere too. though heis a words man not a tunes one and cole porter, jerome kern, johnny mercer irving berlin

Apparently Churchill was once introduced to the Philosopher Isaiah Berlin and spent a good deal of time talking to him about his great skills as songwriting. true.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Hmmmm... I'd put Dylan in there somewhere too. though heis a words man not a tunes one and cole porter, jerome kern, johnny mercer irving berlin

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I'd agree with all of those and raise you Bernstein, Bernard Herrmann, Richard Rodgers and Irving Berlin.

Rogers yes and Bernstein yes and hermann.... so ho about Benny Goodman and stephen foster

Stevie Wonder and Brian Wilson

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Rogers yes and Bernstein yes and hermann.... so ho about Benny Goodman and stephen foster

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I'd agree with those as well, although Foster died during the Civil War.

At least we're relatively safe on this thread from being deluged by claims on behalf of death-metal writers!

Apparently Churchill was once introduced to the Philosopher Isaiah Berlin and spent a good deal of time talking to him about his great skills as songwriting. true

Irving Berlin was in London with his musical This is the Army in 1943 -when Isaiah Berlin was in the Washington Embassy. Irving had contributed to one of Clementine's charities which is why she said WSC should thank him if he met Irving at the Churchill Club in the New Year around February -WSC insisted Berlin be invited to lunch and kept asking him questions about Roosevelt and the War. Berlin was puzzled but flattered that the Prime Minister would ask him political questions, WSC confused by Berlin's American accent (I was given Isaiah Berlin's Letters 1928-1946 last Christmas, its on p478-479 and some other accounts).

Apart from some Jazz classics most American music leaves me cold, except for Aaron Copland whose music makes me feel physically sick -Rodeo came on Radio 3 a week or so ago and I nearly broke a leg in the mad dash across the room to turn the radio off. There are two composers whose work I find so horrible I would sent it to Room 101 -Copland, and William Walton.

I have an album of Barber and Korngold's violin concertos and the Korngold violin suite for Much Ado About Nothing (Gil Shaham and Andre Previn) -two of my favourite violin concertos (I suppose Korngold is classified as an American); and some of Scott Joplin's piano music bears repeated listening. My brother-in-law thinks his opera Treemonisha is worth listening to even if it isnt in the first rank of operas.

Can't agree on Copland - Appalachian Spring remains one of the most evocative pieces and is a perfect fit with the ballet it was written for.

But Scott Joplin - yes, absolutely. The stately pace of his earlier pieces belie the frantic nature of far too much of the ragtime music that followed in his wake.

Now, would it be a stretch to far to suggest Robert Johnson for inclusion in the pantheon?

Now, would it be a stretch to far to suggest Robert Johnson for inclusion in the pantheon?

Not at all. I guess its toss up which of Blind Lemon Jefferson, Leadbelly and Robert Johnson came to establish 'folk blues' as a crucial element in modern popular music -Johnson has the added dimension of a strange, tragic life generating myths and legends, I never saw the film in the link below. If anything the reverence for Johnson, which did not exist when I bought King of the Delta Blues Singers in the mid-60s has mushroomed into a small industry -see the link attached. I would rather just have the recordings, and speculate on my own. For the record, the crossroads is everywhere...
http://www.robertjohnsonfilm.com/rob...m/Welcome.html

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Now, would it be a stretch to far to suggest Robert Johnson for inclusion in the pantheon?

Not at all. I guess its toss up which of Blind Lemon Jefferson, Leadbelly and Robert Johnson came to establish 'folk blues' as a crucial element in modern popular music -Johnson has the added dimension of a strange, tragic life generating myths and legends, I never saw the film in the link below. If anything the reverence for Johnson, which did not exist when I bought King of the Delta Blues Singers in the mid-60s has mushroomed into a small industry -see the link attached. I would rather just have the recordings, and speculate on my own. For the record, the crossroads is everywhere...
http://www.robertjohnsonfilm.com/rob...m/Welcome.html

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I wrote a song, which is on my last album, which only as I finished it did it become clear to me that it was about Johnson. Make of that what you will.

As for the legend about selling his soul to the devil at the midnight crossroads so that he could become the best blues guitarist of them all, my personal theory is that he disappeared for a while and practised a lot!

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Now, would it be a stretch to far to suggest Robert Johnson for inclusion in the pantheon?

Not at all. I guess its toss up which of Blind Lemon Jefferson, Leadbelly and Robert Johnson came to establish 'folk blues' as a crucial element in modern popular music -Johnson has the added dimension of a strange, tragic life generating myths and legends, I never saw the film in the link below. If anything the reverence for Johnson, which did not exist when I bought King of the Delta Blues Singers in the mid-60s has mushroomed into a small industry -see the link attached. I would rather just have the recordings, and speculate on my own. For the record, the crossroads is everywhere...
http://www.robertjohnsonfilm.com/rob...m/Welcome.html

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First, those names you mention were just contributors. Many many others whose names we'll never know influenced the style before and after. Second, it isn't possible to critique blues and folk prior to the recording boom of the 40s because the music wasn't done for mass audiences. It came from people and for people that music critics in today's world much less the European world can scarcely comprehend. Something else of interest, if you are resourceful enough you will find that 'white' and 'black' music in rural America at the turn of the century have many similarities. Try listening to Mississippi John Hurt and Mother Maybelle Carter......one black and one white. A man and a woman. Their guitar work is very similar although they are from different places at a time when it would have been difficult for each to have heard the music of the other - how to explain the similarities?

The famous blues musicians got famous because of white hippies from the UK who proclaimed this musician or that musician to be a musical god. Prior to that these were just people who sang about their lives so I think it is important to separate out the Robert Crays from the guys like:
YouTube - ‪'Let Your Light Shine On Me' BLIND WILLIE JOHNSON (1929) Gospel Blues Guitar Legend‬‏ or

YouTube - ‪Charley Patton - Spoonful Blues (Delta Blues 1929)‬‏

Another thing: don't look for technical know-how on the guitar or the harp....it's all about the emotion!

[QUOTE=Stavros;965354]Apparently Churchill was once introduced to the Philosopher Isaiah Berlin and spent a good deal of time talking to him about his great skills as songwriting. true

Irving Berlin was in London with his musical This is the Army in 1943 -when Isaiah Berlin was in the Washington Embassy. Irving had contributed to one of Clementine's charities which is why she said WSC should thank him if he met Irving at the Churchill Club in the New Year around February -WSC insisted Berlin be invited to lunch and kept asking him questions about Roosevelt and the War. Berlin was puzzled but flattered that the Prime Minister would ask him political questions, WSC confused by Berlin's American accent (I was given Isaiah Berlin's Letters 1928-1946 last Christmas, its on p478-479 and some other accounts).
Whoops - I stand well corrected. interesting how i "misremembered' that story.

This is my favourite Copland. Have you head this Stavros. I rally don't see HOW this could make anyone sick (It is short so stay with it)

YouTube - ‪Copland's Quiet City‬‏

I can't cope with Copland, I have an as yet undefined theory that there are certain combinations of notes, some harmonies that my brain rejects: something about the tone of a Copland piece, particularly the parts he writes for the strings-its like root canal treatment without anaesthetic. For some reason I recall the Ornette Coleman section in AB Spellman's Four Lives in the Bebop Business -I dont have the book so this is from memory -someone who said to OC during a break in his set that if he didn't stop playing he would blow his brains out, and I don't think it was a race thing. Claims the way OC played tenor sax (as he did in the early part of his career) made this guy feel that bad...I am not going to take a gun to a Copland concert, but I can't explain it, mreley say that to me its poison; as is, incidentally, rhubarb.

The famous blues musicians got famous because of white hippies from the UK who proclaimed this musician or that musician to be a musical god

Sir (or Madam) you are well informed!
In addition to Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Peter Green and Jimmy Page, there was a radio DJ called John Peel who did more than anyone to introduce people like me to Johnson with his show The Perfumed Garden on a pirate radio station called Radio London c 1965.

You are of course right about the cultural thread, which is not as clear as historians would like it to be. Sometimes we say things because they fit a model. I did an evening class in Jazz History in the 60s where I lived in 'Greater London' where the 'historian' -in his day job he was a professional photographer- went through the origins of Jazz from African slaves and the 'Field holler' of southern plantations -I believe a lot of work was done on this by people like Alan Lomax. It's a rich heritage, and Johnson stands out because of the quality of his songs, the mystique surrounding his life, and so on -the people I mentioned were, of course, important to me: but also, in the 60s, the ones whose recordings were available in Dobell's on the Charing X Road -time marches on, we know more than we did in those days -link below, and look out for Blind Boy Grunt...
Doug Dobell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What a surprise and a fabulous thread--here's a genius I am partial to:
Django Reinhardt!:Bowdown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jwv...eature=related

(Banned in Germany by Adolf Hitler.)

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Originally Posted by FawlenAngelle

What a surprise and a fabulous thread--here's a genius I am partial to:
Django Reinhardt!:Bowdown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6jwv...eature=related

(Banned in Germany by Adolf Hitler.)

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Genius and Gypsy!

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Originally Posted by Stavros

The famous blues musicians got famous because of white hippies from the UK who proclaimed this musician or that musician to be a musical god

Sir (or Madam) you are well informed!
In addition to Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Peter Green and Jimmy Page, there was a radio DJ called John Peel who did more than anyone to introduce people like me to Johnson with his show The Perfumed Garden on a pirate radio station called Radio London c 1965.

You are of course right about the cultural thread, which is not as clear as historians would like it to be. Sometimes we say things because they fit a model. I did an evening class in Jazz History in the 60s where I lived in 'Greater London' where the 'historian' -in his day job he was a professional photographer- went through the origins of Jazz from African slaves and the 'Field holler' of southern plantations -I believe a lot of work was done on this by people like Alan Lomax. It's a rich heritage, and Johnson stands out because of the quality of his songs, the mystique surrounding his life, and so on -the people I mentioned were, of course, important to me: but also, in the 60s, the ones whose recordings were available in Dobell's on the Charing X Road -time marches on, we know more than we did in those days -link below, and look out for Blind Boy Grunt...
Doug Dobell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Awesome! Had never heard of the Blind Boy Grunt character before. I guess we do need to thank Alan Lomax and your own Dobell for appreciating the blues and helping bring it the rest of the world.

The more I research, the more I see that the cultural lines were indeed blurred among the poor in those times. For instance Charlie Patton I mentioned before MAY have been either white or mixed and how about Jimmie Rodgers:

YouTube - ‪JIMMIE RODGERS 'Long Tall Mama Blues' (1932) Blues Guitar Legend‬‏

People mostly think of cowboy music as 'white' music and while it was indeed influenced by all the northern and western europeans who ended up in the American West, let's not forget that the great majority of cow 'boy's were black!

We are all far more connected than we know...................btw I'm a Sir!

As the music industry changes so do the cultural threads: 'back in the day' a good record shop didn't just have a stack of obscure recordings, they also had the staff whose enthusiasm for the shop meant if you weren't sure what that record was where Coltrane played with Miles -and there was no internet, no google -the guy behind the counter or someone in the shop knew. Dobell's wasnt a shop, it was a library -and a studio -we have lost that. As for music, its like language: all human languages share meanings, even if the precise grammar of expression is different -the tonality of Oriental music might be different from European: but our ears adjust and we can enjoy most things, taste aside. Slavery and capitalism seem to be huge influences on western popular music....

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Originally Posted by Stavros

As the music industry changes so do the cultural threads: 'back in the day' a good record shop didn't just have a stack of obscure recordings, they also had the staff whose enthusiasm for the shop meant if you weren't sure what that record was where Coltrane played with Miles -and there was no internet, no google -the guy behind the counter or someone in the shop knew. Dobell's wasnt a shop, it was a library -and a studio -we have lost that. As for music, its like language: all human languages share meanings, even if the precise grammar of expression is different -the tonality of Oriental music might be different from European: but our ears adjust and we can enjoy most things, taste aside. Slavery and capitalism seem to be huge influences on western popular music....

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Here in the UK if you're lucky enough to have one of the surviving Fopp shops locally you'll still get that service from interested and knowledgeable geeks. There aren't many, but their staff in my experience have the same knowledge and enthusiasm for their product that used to mark out Oddbins from all the other High St wine chains until they became another commodity for vulture capitalists.

I grew up with Bruce's record shops in Glasgow and Edinburgh, they were wonderful places too.

Interesting, some years ago I had to spend some time in Aberdeen and was told by locals there that all the independent book shops had closed, leaving a chain called Ottokar's, I think. I was also dismayed at the limited cd's and dvd's on sale in the HMV there. I can't recall being impressed by the situation in Edinburgh, but its a larger city and I didn't have as much time to explore as I wanted to, even though it stopped raining on my two days off. The main HMV shop on Oxford St in London seems to be the only shop with a comprehensive collection. I think some Fopp shops were re-branded as Head.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Interesting, some years ago I had to spend some time in Aberdeen and was told by locals there that all the independent book shops had closed, leaving a chain called Ottokar's, I think. I was also dismayed at the limited cd's and dvd's on sale in the HMV there. I can't recall being impressed by the situation in Edinburgh, but its a larger city and I didn't have as much time to explore as I wanted to, even though it stopped raining on my two days off. The main HMV shop on Oxford St in London seems to be the only shop with a comprehensive collection. I think some Fopp shops were re-branded as Head.

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In Edinburgh, there's a very good and pleasantly eccentric record/bookshop at the bottom of Leith Walk, but I can't remember it's name, and another good independent in Stockbridge, but they're both away from the city centre and harder to find. The HMV shop on the north side of Oxford St certainly has a terrific range of classical music, and always used to be good for folk, alternative acoustic and americana, my popular musics of choice, but I haven't been there for years. I think Fopp started in Scotland, so there's still a good one in Byres Road in Glasgow, and another in Edinburgh, but these days my plastic incurs most of its damage at the Cambridge shop in Bridge St.

Change of subject, and as a guitarist RobertLouis -have you any of the Schubert song cycles with guitar? Of the two that I have, Die Schone Mullerin with Peter Schreier and Konrad Ragossnig is outstanding, the haunting song Die Liebe Farbe in particular works well with guitar; for some reason Winterrreise is recorded with two guitars, the Folkwang Gitarren Duo -Scott Weir, the tenor does a good job but doesnt have the dramatic range of sensitivity to pull the cycle off, but its an interesting comparison with the single guitar, as well as coventional piano. Can't find samples on youTube but you might have the recordings anyway. The Ragossnig used to be in HMV on Oxford St, I bought the Winterreise on amazon.

Some recommendations for recordings of classical guitar would be welcome, for family reasons.