Classical Music, Poetry and stuff

[Stavros]

Atonal music can be great...yet sometimes it sounds to me that it was composed just to be different then what went before and not because it wants to communicate with the listener
This is almost exactly what happened when Schoenberg composed his Three Piano Pieces op 11 in 1909 and the two songs op 14, to formally depart from tonality in composition. Dissonance as a form of atonality is present in all music in the sense that the intervals between notes do not form a natural tonal form unless the composer makes sure they do -JS Bach blurs the boundaries of tonality in one of the Brandenburg Concerti, Mozart's 'Dissonance' String Quartet K465 uses it to deepen the satisfaction of tonality, and famously Wagner broke the rules in the opening chord of Tristan und Isolde, which Berlioz listened to a hundred times in complete bewilderment. The problem is that Schoenberg felt it had to be formalised if music was to move forwards, but like the breakdown of form in painting, abstraction left a lot of the audience behind.

Behind this are theories of modernism in music -where modernism expresses the spirit of the industrial age -the loss of direct links to nature, the alienation of modern work and the impersonal city, anxiety, loss of control, the collision of diverse cultures in one urban setting, a crisis in religious feeling -all of the ingredients that some people feel Atonal music expresses the problems of modern life. It can be intensely beautiful and dramatic, even if, as with Berg's Wozzeck and Lulu that composer never fully abandoned tonality (much to his teacher Schoenberg's disgust). One triumph wold be The Passion of St John by Sofia Gubaidulina, a phenomenal work that has to be heard live to be experienced at its best -but requires huge forces and is therefore expensive to put on (I saw it at the Proms with Valery Gergiev a few years ago, simply staggering).
On the other hand, I have been bored almost to an early grave by Harrison Birtwistle who to my ears has been writing the same thing over and over again for the last 50 years. I have made an honest effort to listen to his music, but its a cruel and unusual form of punishment, and therefore an abuse of my human rights.

After listening to that stuff, its no surprise that Bartoli, Savall and other baroque specialists have such a wide audience.

How do you feel about Minimalism? Reich, Adams, Glass?

[Birgitta]

Atonal music can be great...yet sometimes it sounds to me that it was composed just to be different then what went before and not because it wants to communicate with the listener
This is almost exactly what happened when Schoenberg composed his Three Piano Pieces op 11 in 1909 and the two songs op 14, to formally depart from tonality in composition. Dissonance as a form of atonality is present in all music in the sense that the intervals between notes do not form a natural tonal form unless the composer makes sure they do -JS Bach blurs the boundaries of tonality in one of the Brandenburg Concerti, Mozart's 'Dissonance' String Quartet K465 uses it to deepen the satisfaction of tonality, and famously Wagner broke the rules in the opening chord of Tristan und Isolde, which Berlioz listened to a hundred times in complete bewilderment. The problem is that Schoenberg felt it had to be formalised if music was to move forwards, but like the breakdown of form in painting, abstraction left a lot of the audience behind.

Behind this are theories of modernism in music -where modernism expresses the spirit of the industrial age -the loss of direct links to nature, the alienation of modern work and the impersonal city, anxiety, loss of control, the collision of diverse cultures in one urban setting, a crisis in religious feeling -all of the ingredients that some people feel Atonal music expresses the problems of modern life. It can be intensely beautiful and dramatic, even if, as with Berg's Wozzeck and Lulu that composer never fully abandoned tonality (much to his teacher Schoenberg's disgust). One triumph wold be The Passion of St John by Sofia Gubaidulina, a phenomenal work that has to be heard live to be experienced at its best -but requires huge forces and is therefore expensive to put on (I saw it at the Proms with Valery Gergiev a few years ago, simply staggering).
On the other hand, I have been bored almost to an early grave by Harrison Birtwistle who to my ears has been writing the same thing over and over again for the last 50 years. I have made an honest effort to listen to his music, but its a cruel and unusual form of punishment, and therefore an abuse of my human rights.

After listening to that stuff, its no surprise that Bartoli, Savall and other baroque specialists have such a wide audience.

How do you feel about Minimalism? Reich, Adams, Glass?

Hiii !
Im not so experienced, i know Phillip Glass, saw him perform once, lovely, though the music bores me quickly, a lot of it sounds the same to me, i have a cd of simeon ten holt (if i write it correctly,( im pretty bad with names and music theory), its called canto ostinatos i believe lol, which is a work i love, very hypnotic.

I think you hit the nail right on the head when you described atonal music, its exactly the reason i dont listen to it, i live in the city, its always crowded and busy here, un personal, individualistic, i long for nature, balance, love, serenity, perhaps when i lived far out in the woods i will be listening my xenakis cds more often, they dissapearedinto my drawer, even pop music is too intrusive for me lately !

[Birgitta]

[Stavros]

Sorry Birgitta, canto ostinato sounds like the repetitive emptiness of Michael Nyman in The Piano...if you want something with more depth and imagination, the Koln Concerts Keith Jarret recorded in the 1970s are worth listening to (there are three segments on youtube), you need to immerse yourself in all three, love it or hate it. Jarret is one of the few musicians who can cross boundaries without controversy although I think that people who either play an instrument or have experienced live music from an early age appreciate the best in most genres, and he is one of the rare people who can play more or less anything...

[robertlouis]

The 2011 season of the BBC proms starts next Friday, with the usual varied and eclectic programme. Let's hope that the BBC's sponsorship doesn't become another casualty of this philistine government's barbarian accounting policies.

In the early stages I'm attracted by Prom 7 which features the Schubert String Quintet, a desert island piece for me, Prom 9 for Sibelius 7th which I've never heard performed live, and Prom 14 which features Mahler's final melancholic masterpiece, the 9th.

The kickoff concert should be good too with Janacek's glorious Glagolitic Mass.

I was an avid promgoer when I lived in London. These days the mix of Radio 3 and BBC4 suits me perfectly.

But I loathe the smug home counties fest of the Last Night more than any other musical event on the planet.

Anyone else?

[trish]

Philip Glass is of course a modern tonal composer. It seems his generation of composers has re-embraced tonality and have abandoned serial and other atonal techniques. Actually I think it's ashamed. I love both tonal and atonal musics. Anton Webern's music is brief and exacting__exquisite mathematics for the ear (Die Funf Lieder, for example). Not at all programmatic of the anxieties of modern life. Alban Berg's stirring compositions probe the deep wells of the human soul. Some of the aleatoric music of John Cage (for example Five Stone Wind) though atonal, can be pensive and restful. The atonal period was full of experiment and innovation and it produced some of the world's most provocative and alluring music.

[Prospero]

I do live in London and still seldom get to the proms. The whole chase for tickets is a hassle.. which is stupid of course. But the last night? You'd have to pay me a lot of money to go. As RL says its "smug home counties" and worse... a chance for fools to show off their jingoism and listen to usually rather hackneyed music.

[Stavros]

My first Prom was Messiaen's Transfiguration in 1970, and I have been to some awesome ones over the years but like RLS no longer live in London. Last time I went I had to stay in a hotel for two days, I think the whole expedition cost me around £250. The best way these days is to buy a weekend ticket if the August bank holiday includes more than one concert you want to go to -it also means you join the priority queue and can usually get one of the seats on the sides of the arena which are also quite good acoustically. The problem is that sometimes -always?- the nerds ruin a performance -Sibelius 7 will undoubtedly be ruined by some dickhead bellowing BRAVO! a micro-second after the final note has been played -would you do that after listening to it on disc at home? I wonder what these people think they are achieving when they do this, after a profound piece of music I want silence.

[Stavros]

Some of the aleatoric music of John Cage (for example Five Stone Wind) though atonal, can be pensive and restful.

To be controversial for once (!) I think John Cage should be re-classified as a sound engineer, not a composer. All music is sound, but not all sound is music, not that he knew much about it. If he is a composer, he is a fraud; if he is a sound engineer he plays around with musical instruments, electronics, sounds, silent intervals (sometimes lasting 4' 33") and contributed nothing to modern music. Allow me to sum up John Cage in his own words:
I have nothing to say
and I am saying it

So there! Webern, on the other hand, I can listen to. Such a tragic death.

[robertlouis]

My first Prom was Messiaen's Transfiguration in 1970, and I have been to some awesome ones over the years but like RLS no longer live in London. Last time I went I had to stay in a hotel for two days, I think the whole expedition cost me around £250. The best way these days is to buy a weekend ticket if the August bank holiday includes more than one concert you want to go to -it also means you join the priority queue and can usually get one of the seats on the sides of the arena which are also quite good acoustically. The problem is that sometimes -always?- the nerds ruin a performance -Sibelius 7 will undoubtedly be ruined by some dickhead bellowing BRAVO! a micro-second after the final note has been played -would you do that after listening to it on disc at home? I wonder what these people think they are achieving when they do this, after a profound piece of music I want silence.

My first prom was Elgar in the 80s. It was a treat, the 1st symphony with its gloriously sonorous and stately theme, the under-appreciated violin concerto, and the Enigma Variations. What I remember most of all was the organ coming in at the triumphal end and making the whole of the Albert Hall shake.

Sibelius 7th is another desert island constant for me, but it has to be Ashkenazy's recording on Decca. Somehow he imbues it with a depth of emotion that none of the others can match.

And as for stupid audience response, I remember one idiot cheering after the first of thor's five mighty hammer blows in the finale of Sibelius 5th - almost spoiled what had been up till then a very fine rendition by an Estonian orchestra at the Royal in Northampton, a perhaps surprisingly good venue for pre and post west end runs of drama as well as classical concerts. I'm also an annual subscriber for the summer series of concerts at the Corn Exchange in Bedford and dip into the Cambridge Festival too, particularly strong on chamber works, as well as playing at the folk festival myself!

You don't have to go to London to enjoy some wonderful music.