I can't believe I typed "expacts" instead of "expats". Oh well...they're IMMIGRANTS.
Printable View
I can't believe I typed "expacts" instead of "expats". Oh well...they're IMMIGRANTS.
As a Black person myself, I would debate that some of our issues are self-inflicted - and this is all that I'm going to say.
Getting back on topic to Orlando. One LGBT person killed by a knife (or dying by being beat-up) is too many - attitude and belief changes are the only way to prevent this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavros
Both the Amish and Hasidic Jews are religious extremists, and you're saying we're obligated to respect them? Why should their demented delusions be respected?Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
At least they aren't slaughtering people, and at least they don't venerate a child-molesting, illiterate, Arab warlord, right?
Regardless, if neither the Amish nor Hasidic Jews nor Muslims were ever allowed to immigrate, America would be doing just fine without them.
Did the original Western settlers adopt the culture of the NATIVE American Indians? Did they fuck themselves or leave because they didn't? No, they IMPORTED Western culture to the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_guy_75
America is a nation of immigrants (including yourself or your ancestors) and a constantly changing melting pot of different cultures. That's what many find so exciting and vibrant about the USA, it breeds creativity. The downside is that with such a mixture, friction will inevitably happen on occasions.Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_guy_75
The NATIVE American Indians would be doing fine without Western immigrants...
Western settlers didn't adapt to local traditions, they took over. Similarly, its difficult for many Muslims to adapt to Western traditions. And why should they? They believe their religion is the only 'true' religion, and they look down at all other religious delusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphroaig
Muslims should remain in whatever shithole country they live in now, it's simply foolish to allow them to migrate to Western countries. Damage has already been done by letting so many migrate already, and we need to stop the bleeding.
While Native Americans would surely be better off without the Western invasion, if they were left alone by European nations, the Chinese would've eventually invaded from the opposite coast. Even if Native Americans were fully left alone, they would still be in the stone age, without written language, without domesticated animals, with a sky-high infant mortality rate, living a subsistance existence. North America in 1491 was the equivalent of Europe in 10,000 BC.
Except at least half of the tribes were at war with the other half. Mass killings, sadisitic torture, rape etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphroaig
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...739301/?no-ist
I want to partially agree and partially disagree. I am a secular Jew who has lived near Hasidic Jews and they are not very good neighbors. They are insular and not very friendly and that's not the American ideal in terms of assimilation. For obvious reasons I don't have much experience with the Amish, but have watched the movie Kingpin...Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_guy_75
But while we don't have to respect their beliefs, we do have to respect their civil rights. I am concerned about Islamic radicals, but it does not help to recommend a purge of Muslims. There are people on this thread saying stuff like, "Islam is incompatible with democratic society", but we have millions of law-abiding Muslims in this country and of the mass shootings we've seen in recent years I don't believe a significant percent have been performed by Islamic fundamentalists.
It also doesn't help to label someone like Sadiq Khan as an Islamic extremist as someone did. He is Muslim and his views are quite moderate. Any attempt to paint him as otherwise are obviously based on stereotyping. I have not vetted his entire past but any Muslim who flies a rainbow flag is very obviously not a fundamentalist.
I also think the problem of reconciling religious beliefs with secular values is something that is not just a difficulty for Muslims. Native Americans want to use peyote for religious ceremonies, certain Hasidic Jews want to perform extremely unhygienic practices during circumcision, and some Christians honestly think that opening their businesses to gay men and women violates their right to freely practice their religion, which it doesn't under the court's current reading of the free exercise clause.
That doesn't mean that Muslim extremists (I'm talking about a subset; I'm not saying all Muslims are extremists) do not present a problem for secular values, as they promote a complex of homophobic and misogynistic views. But we cannot turn the lives of millions of people upside down in a search for those who threaten attacks.
We have a tradition in this country of equal protection under the law, which means that you are going to need more than religious affiliation to target someone. And you also need more than homophobia or misogyny in the abstract to arrest someone. And as several people have pointed out, you have a lot of the same doctrines in Judaism and Christianity.
The FBI is going to have to do what they have been doing: namely targeting people who are members of terrorist groups or advocating for attacks against our institutions or people.
So, they are better off being displaced on a continent they once dwelt in freely? Come on.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce_willy
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_guy_75
Both of you are somewhat missing the points that I'm making.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce_willy
1. America is already a nation of immigrants including yourselves.
2. You seem to think it's fine for Westeners to invade and destroy other cultures, rather than adapt and blend in.
Fundamentally, the Muslim religion is one of hospitality and peace. Unfortunatly, it has been subverted by a minority of fanatics who are as abhorant to true Muslims as they are to the rest of the world.
Read theough the history of the Crucades and tell me who the good/bad guys were, the Western Christian Knights or the Eastern Muslims?
....That's funny, I always thought the Roman Catholics thought THEIRS was the one true religion. For that matter so does every other religion...they all think they hold the keys to Heaven and any others are non-believers, heretics and infidels.Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_guy_75
...Catholics are murdering doctors and blowing up health clinics and raping altar boys in the name of Jesus....let's get rid of them too while we're at it
...Bottom line...ALL religion is delusional. There is no magic playground up in the sky somewhere where you go when you're dead and everything is peachy keen...certainly no concrete evidence of it anyway
Most people here at HA know that I’m an atheist. Just read some of threads in the Religion and Politics section to see me and Stavros have at each other on this issue. We atheists think we’re right too. You can find us occasionally lamenting, “If only everybody gave up their religious mumbo-jumbo and saw the world through the keen, cool eyes of reason.” But that’s nonsense too. For even if we adequately answer the question of ontology, the issue of how to establish what constitutes moral and ethical behavior remains. The other guy, what he believes, how she dresses, how they behave is always the problem. “Hell is other people,” says Jean-Paul Sartre and twentieth-century existentialist, atheist philosopher who thought violence was necessary to pave the way for a communist revolution. Albert Camus, also an atheist and an existentialist broke with Sartre over this issue. He was a leader in the French Underground during the war and saw his share of mayhem.
We just have to learn respect and tolerate one another. Thanks to the First Amendment, America is one of the places where people can and do learn to adjust to each other and live with each other.
But having this argument here, in this thread, is far far afield. Omar Mateen was not a radical Islamist. Although in the last minutes of his life he credited ISIS with the murders he committed, he was not ISIS. Investigators are telling us he was confused about his sexuality. He visited the Pulse and other gay clubs for a number of years. He used a gay dating app. He likely never came out to his family because his father was a homophobe. Thinking he could be cured, he probably tried to take refuge in religion. His online searches lead him to not only ISIS, but Hezbolah and Al Qaeda. All sworn enemies of each other. Yet Omar took the hatred each had to offer (without becoming a member of any - which is why the FBI lost interest in him) and turned it toward himself. But religion is not the whole story. Omar deliberately chose Latino Night for his attack. His was a hate crime; a hate crime against himself, gays and latinos. It is no coincidence that this tragedy occurred at the moment when anti-gay, anti-latino and anti-muslim sentiment is loudly proclaimed by angry mobs and pundits everyday. His father, his religion and society were all dishing out hatred, all telling him he was unnatural, that he didn’t blend in. Notice, that Islam is not a necessary element of element of this story. We could easily tell the same story with almost any other religion taking the place of Islam. We could even tell a atheistic story where Omar hates himself because some bizarre naturalist theory tells him and his father that being gay is wrong because species need to reproduce or go extinct.
The shooter went off the deep end, not because of his beliefs but because he was pushed in that direction from every direction he turned. We might not be able to avoid every tragedy, but we could stop pushing people around. We could stop building walls, stop manufacturing assault weapons, stop manufacturing hate 24/7 and listen.
Remember the people who suffered and died this week were at The Pulse because it was a place where they felt they belonged; a place where they did in fact blend in - if nowhere else.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH! Did Hillary Clinton tell you that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphroaig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cItgz3OpdTI
So what you are saying is the feeble minded concept of 'why can't we all just get along'?Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Well we can't. That's just the way life works. Sorry you cannot understand that.
No, I didn't ask that question. In fact, I believe I explained in the first paragraph that we probably never will all get along and that not even reasonable people will ever agree on how we should structure our society. I'm merely suggesting that the bruce-willys of the world could stretch their minds a little more and hate a little less. I know...you think you can't...but you can.
I am a non believer, but am very happy I was raised Christian.
Civilizations develop at different rates. At various times, similar things could have been said about us Brits by the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, etc. Civilizations and Empires grow and dissapear. Americas influence on the world has peaked and is now slowly on the wane. Time will tell whether this is a positive or negative effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce_willy
The Mongols were in not too dissimilar a position to the American Indians, before Ghenhis united the tribes. He and his decendents then went on to do great and terrible things. Arguably, only luck and timing prevented them from adding Western Europe to their list of conquests. They withdrew, not through defeat, but due to the news of the death of Ghengis himself back home. The whole world would be a very different place, but for that.
Who knows how the American Indians would have developed without outside interferences? Since they've been intruduced to Western culture, we've had World War 1 and 2, mass murders via gas chambers, Vietnam, etc, etc. Is that really an improvement?
According to several press reports, more American were shot by toddlers last year than by terrorists http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjam...b_8650536.html
Maybe we should ban gunowners from having kids until we work out what is going on.
No. That would jeopardise the potential income from various taxes which the surviving children may be paying in future.
I think that in this and your earlier post you've pretty much nailed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Societies need a moral code and traditionally religions have provided one, but there's no reason why we can't all agree a secular one.
Tolerance, but within rules would be something to aspire to ...
People tend to forget that ISIS/ISIL is also a brand. The group publishes a lot of propaganda online hoping that individuals will conduct acts of terrorism against the West. Even before Omar showed possible gay tendencies, he was ripe for radicalization. For example, he was suspended for cheering the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. As well, he was twice investigated by the FBI for possible terrorism ties. Most people aren't investigated for terrorism ties by the FBI. Can you name individuals twice investigated for terrorism ties? This isn't the first time that a radicalized individual targeted gay people to attack the West. Most people don't know about Ali Muhammad Brown and what he did in Seattle. He used gay social apps to murder two gay males because he wanted wage war against the United States.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Immigration has nothing to do with this act of terrorism.
It really doesn't take much to be investigated by the FBI.Quote:
Originally Posted by notdrunk
All someone has to do is make the right phonecall and give an agent the right backstory.
I could get any Muslim right now where I work 'investigated' by the FBI.
'Cheering' 9/11 could be as little as getting into an argument with a co-worker saying we deserved to be attacked because of our foreign policy,(not my opinion, just an example.)
If Omar was really ISIL connected, he would still have been under investigative surveillance.
Instead as I'm sure the FBI found out, Mateen was an angry, emotionally troubled young Muslim man who was more curious about ISIL than anything else.
By definition this was a 'terrorist' attack, but it wasn't an ISIL driven attack.
Because more than anything IMO this was a hate crime committed by someone in great distress over his closeted sexuality.
I think we have to be careful to label any terrorist attacker who cries allegiance to ISIS before committing some atrocity as being a part of some larger ISIL terrorist network.
No one recruited Mateen. No one trained Mateen. No one helped him choose The Pulse nightclub as a potential high visibility soft target.
By making Omar an ISIL terrorist, you're elevating him to the level of an enemy militant/radical at war with the U.S.
When the truth is he's just a deranged individual trying to validate his murder lust and suicidal impulses.
I saw that in the Washington Post, which also said the story couldn't be independently verified. Nevertheless, one of his classmates said Omar claimed Osama bin Laden was his uncle. Of course you know Al Qaeda, which carried out the 9/11 attacks under Osama bin Laden, is an enemy of ISIS. So, was Omar ISIS or was he Al Qaeda? I put more stock in Omar Mateen's overall confusion about who and what he was, than in his having been radicalized. Radicals tend to be very specific about which extremes and conspiracy theories they're supporting. According to your post, the FBI twice decided he had no specific terrorist ties. I imagine the FBI takes a second look at everyone who demonstrates a continued interest those kind of websites.Quote:
For example, he was suspended for cheering the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. As well, he was twice investigated by the FBI for possible terrorism ties. Most people aren't investigated for terrorism ties by the FBI. Can you name individuals twice investigated for terrorism ties?
Ali Muhammad Brown one time told investigators he was "guided by his faith," yet he mostly claims his actions were in retaliation for U.S. actions in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. He, like the Donald, also is an American citizen by birth. According to him his actions (murders committed in or prior to 2014) were more political than religious. Did U.S. attitudes toward immigration factor into his motivations? I don't know and neither do you.Quote:
Most people don't know about Ali Muhammad Brown and what he did in Seattle.
However, back to Omar Mateen: to claim that Omar was not in any way goaded by the anti-immigration pollution that clouds the atmosphere around every Republican rally these days taxes reason and common sense to the breaking point.
Anti-immigration attitudes (against Muslims, Latinos and so on), the availability of guns, Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs about gays, homophobia in general, political grandstanding and fear mongering are all issues that played a role in this most current act of terrorism.
Again, ISIL is a brand. You have various terrorist organizations declaring "allegiance" to ISIL even though they don't operate in the same area as ISIL. For example, Boko Haram declared allegiance to ISIL even though they operate in Nigeria. ISIL publishes a lot of material online on how to attack the West. It wants people like Omar because they have a good chance to secede. It is looking for franchisees because it is a franchisor. It wasn't a simple hate crime. Did you read or heard news about the 911 transcripts? He mentioned Iraq and Syria aka typical shit that radicalized individuals mention.Quote:
Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel
Something is seriously wrong with you if you were cheering on 9/11. Omar was suspended from school because his of the cheering.
The transcript shows us that he was radicalized. It is no doubt that he was radicalized. He was very specific in the 911 calls about his motives. He didn't mention immigration and Hispanics. Stop trying to add on things that aren't there.Quote:
Originally Posted by trish
Islam muddles religion and politics. There is no separation of church and state. Church and state are one to Islam. Ali saw the United States attacking his brothers and sisters; therefore, he needed to respond even though he has never been to those countries that were attacked. He murdered those people because the United States military killed Muslims in those countries.
When a closeted gay man attacks a gay club, under any metric that has to be a primary factor.
Was it greater than his alleged Islamic radicalism??
I can't say, that's why I stick with the FBI description that this was BOTH a hate crime and a terrorist attack.
Oh he can understand it alright, he just is disappointed with people who have lost/haven't found their reason, and who are unable to answer with anything else than a 30 second/150 character message, much like yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce_willy
So, you like a fight it seems, huh? (where is that f*cking peace emoticon when you need it) :peace:
One with a very high low esteem factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by giovanni_hotel