Classical Music, Poetry and stuff

[trish]

Some of the aleatoric music of John Cage (for example Five Stone Wind) though atonal, can be pensive and restful.

To be controversial for once (!) I think John Cage should be re-classified as a sound engineer, not a composer. All music is sound, but not all sound is music, not that he knew much about it. If he is a composer, he is a fraud; if he is a sound engineer he plays around with musical instruments, electronics, sounds, silent intervals (sometimes lasting 4' 33") and contributed nothing to modern music. Allow me to sum up John Cage in his own words:
I have nothing to say
and I am saying it

So there! Webern, on the other hand, I can listen to. Such a tragic death.

Well, to each his own taste__though I do think you succeeded in being controversial.

I agree that not all sound is music. But I also agree with Proust, "The voyage of discovery is not seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." If you hear it has music, it has become music. A composer is simply one who creates "blue prints" that function to guide musicians in musical performance. I think most musicologists count Cage as a composer. One may think his compositions suck, but that's another matter.

So what about the claim, "If he was a composer, then he was a fraud?" Given that musicologists are right and Cage was a composer, this claim would have us conclude he was also a fraud. But were Cage a fraud, then he would have intended to deceive. I see no reason to be so uncharitable. I would simply say, there's a lot of Cage compositions that fail and there are a lot that are successful.

[Prospero]

If there's any English in me it must predate 1720, and previous to that year the family name was Swedish, so I doubt it.

Hell of an insult, Prospero. You should know better.

I apologise -

[robertlouis]

I apologise -

Apology accepted. You are a true English gentleman.

[Stavros]

But were Cage a fraud, then he would have intended to deceive
Trish I accept your criticism that my use of the word 'fraud' is inaccurate in the literal sense of the word -but I am not going to apologise for that; it has pejorative clout. Cage took music away from music -from its comfortable niche, I concede that- and into the world of sound, experimentation with the hardware -prepared pianos and all that. I don't object to it, I think its valid, I am a man of diverse tastes -but the result? 'Seeing' music with new eyes when encountering Cage? I get no pleasure from listening to it, and only a temporary fascination with what sounds can be generated when you stick a coke bottle in a Steinway and smash it with a silver hammer while playing Fur Elise...
But what happens when you get to the stage 'piece' for ballet which Cage 'prepared' [surely not composed?] with Merce Cunningham but where there is, in the literal sense of the word, no music, just the two of them on stage talking about their sexual history: sound, not music.

A composer is simply one who creates "blue prints" that function to guide musicians in musical performance
I can't agree with this: it is true that a lot of composers don't provide metronome markings or full technical specs, but a lot of players and conductors ignore the ones composers do provide, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the notes are there -for a reason. A waltz is not a tango, and I am sure some of us have heard old recordings of Bach where a Gigue sounded more like a marche funebre. And yes, in a way every performance is an experiment, but its not Jazz where a musician can take a tune like My Favourite Things and improvise on it.

Cage was creative, and his contribution lay in exposing the essential chaos that exists in the heart of music; but other than showing us what it sounds like, and failing to do much else, he remains an historical curiosity, the Heath Robinson of sound.

[Stavros]

I saw this extract from a book review in the New York Times, a description of a sexual act that amazed me as I coudn't understand it...

he captained her onto the pillowy pier of her Posturepedic

the link is here
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/bo...eview.html?hpw

[Prospero]

In the design business I am told that those who come up with stupid and pretentious ideas are labelled as "design wankers." I think this is a journalist example of the same - a candidate for pseuds corner. You sort of get the meaning but ....

[Birgitta]

But were Cage a fraud, then he would have intended to deceive
Trish I accept your criticism that my use of the word 'fraud' is inaccurate in the literal sense of the word -but I am not going to apologise for that; it has pejorative clout. Cage took music away from music -from its comfortable niche, I concede that- and into the world of sound, experimentation with the hardware -prepared pianos and all that. I don't object to it, I think its valid, I am a man of diverse tastes -but the result? 'Seeing' music with new eyes when encountering Cage? I get no pleasure from listening to it, and only a temporary fascination with what sounds can be generated when you stick a coke bottle in a Steinway and smash it with a silver hammer while playing Fur Elise...
But what happens when you get to the stage 'piece' for ballet which Cage 'prepared' [surely not composed?] with Merce Cunningham but where there is, in the literal sense of the word, no music, just the two of them on stage talking about their sexual history: sound, not music.

A composer is simply one who creates "blue prints" that function to guide musicians in musical performance
I can't agree with this: it is true that a lot of composers don't provide metronome markings or full technical specs, but a lot of players and conductors ignore the ones composers do provide, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the notes are there -for a reason. A waltz is not a tango, and I am sure some of us have heard old recordings of Bach where a Gigue sounded more like a marche funebre. And yes, in a way every performance is an experiment, but its not Jazz where a musician can take a tune like My Favourite Things and improvise on it.

Cage was creative, and his contribution lay in exposing the essential chaos that exists in the heart of music; but other than showing us what it sounds like, and failing to do much else, he remains an historical curiosity, the Heath Robinson of sound.

Ive enjoyed listening to cage, the discussion here seems to be the definition of music and composition...i for instance love the didgeridoo, and music for didgeridoo are indeed compositions, the rules and meanings are different, even the purpose, but i still call it music

[Birgitta]

Sorry Birgitta, canto ostinato sounds like the repetitive emptiness of Michael Nyman in The Piano...if you want something with more depth and imagination, the Koln Concerts Keith Jarret recorded in the 1970s are worth listening to (there are three segments on youtube), you need to immerse yourself in all three, love it or hate it. Jarret is one of the few musicians who can cross boundaries without controversy although I think that people who either play an instrument or have experienced live music from an early age appreciate the best in most genres, and he is one of the rare people who can play more or less anything...

Yyyyyy

Did you listen to it as a whole and played it (for 8 hours long ? ) A few of my best friends plays the piano from childhood on and really appreciate the piece......think u just exposed yourself lol...its a difficult peace to play....prr

But lol u also called baroque 'predictable' while its music written for musicians and singers with such virtuosity ...so i guess its not suprising that you call this repetitive emptyness...

Bla bla ! Thats what i hear, start to try to play these pieces....baroque 'predictable' lol !

[Stavros]

Birgitta I have already said I love Baroque music, what I meant when I said it was predictable is that when it is not at its best it follows a predictable formula -composers who wrote for money often had to produce something quickly and re-cycled existing ideas -I did not dismiss the Baroque tout court.

Canto ostinato for a few minutes was as much as I could take, life is too short for me to spend eight hours listening to something that does nothing for me. I was kept waiting in an office for an hour yesterday during which all I had to read was the local paper, and I was mightily pissed off -eight hours of music I don't like sounds like an abuse of my human rights.

We usually agree on music generally, if not the details, lets leave it like that.

[Prospero]

Music hath charms to cool the savage breast... so let it be a balm between you. "If music be the food of love, play on...."