Coronavirus

[Stavros]

Forgot to ask -where is Alex Azar? Is he not the United States Secretary of Health and Human Services? He doesn't appear on the President's TV show, or maybe I missed it when he was there. Has he nothing to say?

[broncofan]

What I meant was that he could have extended the stay at home order until April 30th and then if need to be, extend it another 2 weeks.

Once tests become available, private businesses will be responsible for testing their own employees. Those who work for the government will be tested by public health departments. Those who work in the healthcare industry, will be tested by their respective employers.

We have to start asking ourselves some hard questions as to what the endgame is until a vaccine becomes available. Which is not happening for another 12-18 months. Are we looking to reduce the number of infections to an acceptable amount or are looking to make sure no one gets infected. We should be striving for the former because the latter isn't happening.

Are we looking to make sure that the hospitals aren't being overrun with Covid-19 cases or are we trying to make sure no one is admitted to the hospital with the virus. Because I'm quite sure that second scenario isn't a viable option at this time.

If this is truly a war, then we may need to accept the fact that there is going to be some collateral damage. We already have from an economic standpoint. The same goes for our physical, mental. and emotional well being. If someone committed suicide due to being out of work and the self isolation, was that an acceptable loss because of the greater good of society. If there is rise in domestic violence due to people being cooped up together, is that acceptable.

Until there is a vaccine or a form of treatment readily available that alleviates the symptoms of the Corona virus, there are still going to be deaths because if it. We may have to ask ourselves is there an acceptable number of daily deaths we can live with in order to get things back to normal.

As of last count, over 500 Covid-19 patients were safely discharged from the hospital that I work at. Lets say that's happening across a city and the number of admissions to the ICU go down as well. Lets say the daily number of deaths continue to decline. Shouldn't that be a goal that we should strive for?

Suicide is a major cause of death every year. The marginals for suicide are not anywhere near 2500 deaths a day increase because of quarantine. Could someone commit suicide because they're locked in an apartment? Yes. Could they also commit suicide because four of their family members died of pneumonia, including one who had to share a ventilator that wasn't intended to be shared? Also possible.

What is an acceptable number of deaths? How about the median for countries that used lockdowns initially instead of having some of the worst numbers in the world. Had New York locked down at the time you were annoyed primaries were cancelled, you'd be very close to the bottom of the curve. http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/sho...ns-2020/page17

Nobody knows where any of this leads. Your supposition is that some economic pain can be avoided and yet here and during the 1918 flu pandemic there's been a correlation between places that handled their problem well initially and economic recovery. It's very hard to find anyone who is raring to open up early but who wasn't also resistant to the measures that would have prevented us from having among the worst outbreaks in the world.

You say once tests become available private employers can be responsible for them. Sure. They're not available. They're not even close to available for prophylactic testing. Some people with symptoms aren't getting tested. Can't we wait until there's testing infrastructure in place to keep crowded work places from being petri dishes? That's not 18 months. It does require some work from the federal government.

[broncofan]

Until there is a vaccine or a form of treatment readily available that alleviates the symptoms of the Corona virus, there are still going to be deaths because if it. We may have to ask ourselves is there an acceptable number of daily deaths we can live with in order to get things back to normal.

Yes. We're not at the point where we have singularly focused on there being no deaths no matter what the cost. The number has to be way less than 2500 people a day I would think. Can't we even wait until that shows some sign of abating? What Germany is doing is trying to figure out how it can open up and also figure out where outbreaks are so that the r number is increasing but not all the way to 2.5. That IS figuring out how they can open up society while also accepting a higher number of infections. I don't see how that approach should cause yahoos with confederate flags and assault rifles to create a gridlock in Michigan.

[blackchubby38]

Suicide is a major cause of death every year. The marginals for suicide are not anywhere near 2500 deaths a day increase because of quarantine. Could someone commit suicide because they're locked in an apartment? Yes. Could they also commit suicide because four of their family members died of pneumonia, including one who had to share a ventilator that wasn't intended to be shared? Also possible.

What is an acceptable number of deaths? How about the median for countries that used lockdowns initially instead of having some of the worst numbers in the world. Had New York locked down at the time you were annoyed primaries were cancelled, you'd be very close to the bottom of the curve. http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/sho...ns-2020/page17

Nobody knows where any of this leads. Your supposition is that some economic pain can be avoided and yet here and during the 1918 flu pandemic there's been a correlation between places that handled their problem well initially and economic recovery. It's very hard to find anyone who is raring to open up early but who wasn't also resistant to the measures that would have prevented us from having among the worst outbreaks in the world.

You say once tests become available private employers can be responsible for them. Sure. They're not available. They're not even close to available for prophylactic testing. Some people with symptoms aren't getting tested. Can't we wait until there's testing infrastructure in place to keep crowded work places from being petri dishes? That's not 18 months. It does require some work from the federal government.

I wasn't annoyed that the primaries were cancelled. I just don't like the idea of giving someone in power the idea that its okay to postpone or possibly cancel an election under the guise of public safety:

I don't think either the Ohio or Connecticut primaries should have been postponed and the same goes for the remaining ones. If things have gotten back to normal by the summer, I say go ahead with the Party Conventions.

But under no circumstances should the General Election be postponed. With all this uncertainty and people being on edge, we need to have some stability and to remind people that life will go on once we get to handle on this thing. We didn't postpone elections during WWII or after 9/11. Democratic societies find a way to soldier on during times of crisis and make sure one of the principles of said society, free and fair elections, take place.

[broncofan]

I wasn't annoyed that the primaries were cancelled. I just don't like the idea of giving someone in power the idea that its okay to postpone or possibly cancel an election under the guise of public safety:

I don't think either the Ohio or Connecticut primaries should have been postponed and the same goes for the remaining ones. If things have gotten back to normal by the summer, I say go ahead with the Party Conventions.

But under no circumstances should the General Election be postponed. With all this uncertainty and people being on edge, we need to have some stability and to remind people that life will go on once we get to handle on this thing. We didn't postpone elections during WWII or after 9/11. Democratic societies find a way to soldier on during times of crisis and make sure one of the principles of said society, free and fair elections, take place.

Connecticut has over 1000 deaths. So you weren't annoyed, you just think the states were wrong to save lives by postponing something that might have been done safer. Had these primaries been held, more people would have died without any benefit. Nobody thinks the general election should be postponed, just the primary process which only needs to be completed before the convention.

You also apparently think Whitmer overstepped her bounds by saving thousands of lives with stay at home orders and not that the people protesting had received misinformation from right-wing media. She did not do anything any other responsible governor with an outbreak wouldn’t have done.

When this is all over we'll have more deaths than countries with our lead time, but at least our economy will be just as decimated.

Also, when during WWII did we have aerial bombing campaigns that made it dangerous to vote? Was 9/11 a single event or were people flying planes into polling stations?

[blackchubby38]

Connecticut has over 1000 deaths. So you weren't annoyed, you just think the states were wrong to save lives by postponing something that might have been done safer. Had these primaries been held, more people would have died without any benefit. Nobody thinks the general election should be postponed, just the primary process which only needs to be completed before the convention.

You also apparently think Whitmer overstepped her bounds by saving thousands of lives with stay at home orders and not that the people protesting had received misinformation from right-wing media. She did not do anything any other responsible governor with an outbreak wouldn’t have done.

When this is all over we'll have more deaths than countries with our lead time, but at least our economy will be just as decimated.

Also, when during WWII did we have aerial bombing campaigns that made it dangerous to vote? Was 9/11 a single event or were people flying planes into polling stations?

I thought she overstepped her bounds on certain parts of the stay at home order. I didn't have an issue with orders themselves.

I also think you could have held the primaries safely. You could have people stand six feet apart in a polling place and have a certain amount of people in the area at once.

Finally, the only reason why I brought up the general election is because someone posed the question should it be postponed.

[broncofan]

I apologize for my last post. I think I'm being too aggressive in my disagreement. You are right that being home all day and not having work is tough psychologically. I'm going to force myself to watch some netflix or I'll just be back to reading about this.

Stay safe.

[filghy2]

This article looks at the difficulties some Asian countries have faced in trying to contain the virus while keeping their economies relatively open. They have had to impose stronger restrictions due to a second wave of infections. This is despite them being far more successful in containing infections earlier, as a result of doing much more on testing and contact tracing, as well as having cultures more encouraging of compliance with official directions. Just imagine the difficulties the US will face. Anyone who thinks victory is in sight is delusional.
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/17/212137...ngapore-taiwan

[Stavros]

Finally, the only reason why I brought up the general election is because someone posed the question should it be postponed.

I think that might relate to the question I posed in Thought for the Day some months ago when I asked if the Conventions and the General Election could be postponed, and you were emphatic the answer should be no
But if the armed militia that were seen in Lansing over the weeked to decide to 'Liberate Michigan', and other armed miitia, be the Patriotic Front, Proud Boys, or Willy Wankas Riflemen decide to 'Liberate Virginia', 'Liberate Minnesota' or hell, just go for 'Liberate America', you may not have a country left to vote in.

[filghy2]

Can anyone comment on why California has done so much better in containing the virus? I think I read that they had twice as many returnees from China as New York state, yet deaths in New York are 30 times greater relative to the population.