He Played Handball For Australia's Men's Team. Now Transgender, He's Dominating Women

[dirtrail]

Totally agree Lily.

"Connecticut is one of 17 states that allow transgender high school athletes to compete without restrictions" This means with no hormone therapy or castration. That is actually insane.

The only way transgirls/transwomen should be allowed to compete with females is if they undergone hormones under puberty age in my opinion (which eliminates nearly everyone.) Once the body starts puberty there are irreversible changes to the body that can't be undone with hormones during or after puberty, but if you start hormone treatment before puberty you will not have any of your body affected by testosterone that it would be there without hormones.

[Nick Danger]

Some of you are failing to account for what I have (just now) decided to call the "Brexit Effect," wherein a group of people lock themselves into an ultimately undesirable course of action from which they cannot escape except by undermining themselves. In this case, the course of action is #Inclusiveness, and the contradiction would be if institution-tier sports organizations suddenly start banning transgender participants.

Because that's the tangled nest where hard reality and natural law begin to mesh uncomfortably with political correctness.

I think anyone with a 3-digit IQ would agree that an ex-male has a competitive advantage in female sports. At the same time, the current social zeitgeist is that it's wrong to ban transgender people from full participation in the milieu of their new gender. So we're going to draw a line? At sports? Only sports? Which sports? Also, if a MtF transgender woman is barred from playing, say, professional women's tennis, does that mean she would be allowed to play men's tennis? Even though she is legally a female?

Lots of questions to be answered. I'll be watching, and hoping my beloved t-girls get the desired outcome. But I predict a huge clusterfuck.

[LilyRox]

Also, if a MtF transgender woman is barred from playing, say, professional women's tennis, does that mean she would be allowed to play men's tennis? Even though she is legally a female?

No trans-woman would play vs men at a sport. Not because they wouldn't win, but because they would get slaughtered. Probably even more so than females getting hurt by a fully transitioned trans-woman.

[blackchubby38]

Here is a post I made last year in the thread about the FTM transgender wrestler Mack Beggs. I think it qualifies for this discussion:

When this story was first posted, I wanted to wait a couple of days to gather my thoughts about it. Its one of those stories that is going to cause a reaction no matter what side of the aisle a person sits on and I think its one of those situations where nuance is needed.

First, should the University Interscholastic League adopt a new rule that allows transgendered people to compete against the gender that isn't listed on their birth certificate?- Yes. I think they should come up with something similar to the NCAA's rules:

"trans male (FTM) student-athlete who has received a medical exception for treatment with testosterone for diagnosed Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for purposes of NCAA competition may compete on a men’s team, but is no longer eligible to compete on a women’s team without changing that team status to a mixed team".

"trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment".

This way you're being fair to the transgendered person and you're preserving the the integrity of women’s sports.


Second, I think it is fair to question whether or not Mack has an unfair advantage over his female opponents due to the testosterone injections he is receiving. It would be interesting to see what his record was before he started transitioning. From the two articles that I read, I haven't seen it mentioned.

Third, I think you can have empathy for Mack's situation. But at same time, think it isn't right that he is competing against female wrestlers. Especially when you consider that he is going to get the chance to compete against other boys on the national level. A decision that was reached last year. So its also fair to wonder if he should have competed in this year's state tournament.

Finally, I'm all for people following their dreams. I also understand that starting the transitioning process is an important step in a transgendered person's life. But sometimes in life people have prioritize what's most important to them. So I think its fair to ask whether Mack should have either waited to begin transitioning until he was done competing at the high school level or stopped competing altogether while he was doing so.

[filghy2]

No trans-woman would play vs men at a sport. Not because they wouldn't win, but because they would get slaughtered. Probably even more so than females getting hurt by a fully transitioned trans-woman.

That suggests that any transsexual with sporting ability is in an impossible situation. Sure, they could compete in transsexual-only competitions, but that would mean their opportunities are fairly limited in most sports.

In some sports where strength is important they divide the competition into weight classes. Maybe that's one way to ensure competition is reasonably fair.

[filghy2]

Second, I think it is fair to question whether or not Mack has an unfair advantage over his female opponents due to the testosterone injections he is receiving.

Don't they have weight classes in wrestling, which would tend to limit this advantage? Is a male stronger that a female with the same weight and the same body fat percentage? Or is it that he would be in the top weight class where there is no upper limit?

[Nick Danger]

No trans-woman would play vs men at a sport. Not because they wouldn't win, but because they would get slaughtered. Probably even more so than females getting hurt by a fully transitioned trans-woman.

Slaughtered, yes, I agree. I'm only questioning the sticky legal issues, i.e., if you say someone is barred from women's sports because they used to be a man, then how do you now classify them for competitive purposes? If an organization is going to use someone's maleness against them but another organization refuses to accept their maleness, then we are at an impasse.

[filghy2]

If an organization is going to use someone's maleness against them but another organization refuses to accept their maleness, then we are at an impasse.

I'm not sure that would be a problem because the male and female sides of most sports would be affiliated, which should ensure the rules are consistent. The problem is that most transsexuals don't want to compete with men because they would be at a physical disadvantage and because the culture would be intimidating. Men's sport is still pretty macho and there aren't many gay male sportsmen who come out openly.

[Nick Danger]

I'm not sure that would be a problem because the male and female sides of most sports would be affiliated, which should ensure the rules are consistent. The problem is that most transsexuals don't want to compete with men because they would be at a physical disadvantage and because the culture would be intimidating. Men's sport is still pretty macho and there aren't many gay male sportsmen who come out openly.

We'll see I guess. I know that, as an example, the NBA owns the WNBA. But does that mean they are legally obligated to respect the same standards of inclusion? I feel comfortable saying there are attorneys who could argue otherwise, and eventually probably will do that very thing. Because as much as we now seem to be talking as if it will never happen, my experience tells me that everything that can happen eventually does happen. At some point there will be a MtF transgender woman who is trying to play in the WNBA but is good enough to play in the NBA and would totally dominate the WNBA. There will be a faction that does not want to see her included as a woman, and a faction that does want her included as a woman. Likewise, if the situation progresses to that unimaginable "thing" where she is denied playing in the WNBA because of hormones but then wants to play in the NBA, there will be a faction that wants her included as a man and a faction that doesn't.

The same thing is going to happen in tennis, and golf, and other sports.

I seriously doubt it's going to be an easily-addressed black-and-white type of issue. I think when it happens - and what we are seeing now is "it" happening but only the tip of the iceberg; there's no big American professional sports money on the line yet - we are going to see a lot of ugliness from everyone involved. There will be lawsuits and memes. The system will truly be put to the test.

[Nick Danger]

And while I'm holding forth on this subject, I might as well throw one more thing out there that occurs to me about the trangenders in sports thing.

At some point during this transition from a world in which transgenders were marginalized to one in which they are included, we as a society are going to have to definitively answer the question: At what point in the transition process is a person legally entitled to claim the opposite gender? Is a man legally considered a woman when she begins hormones? Does she have to be on the hormones X amount of time before legal consideration is due? Does she have to have SRS? Or is she a woman at the very beginning of the process, when she makes the decision to transition?

I mean if we're not careful, and thorough, about the way we handle transgenders in sports, it's going to get weird. The rules could bend in such a way that any man who wanted to play women's professional sports would simply have to declare their gender, put on a wig, stuff a bra, shave real close, and then start whooping the hell out of genetic girls at every sport out there.

Obviously no one wants that to happen. But in a world where gender truly is just a personal choice and no further caveats are advanced, that's exactly how it will be.

So there's a lot of work to do. The subject of Transgenders In Sports is going to force society to answer every awkward question about assimilating transgenders into society that we've avoided up to this juncture.