What To Do About Syria

[bishr]

You need to acquaint yourself with a few facts, Bishr.

1) The attack on the US Embassy Consulate in Bengazi was planned as a retaliation for the murder of Yahya al-Libi, allegedly second-in-command in al-Qaeda, who was killed in a drone attack in Pakistan on June 4th.

2) Muammar al-Qadhafi was not the legitimate leader of Libya, he was not elected to the post, but seized it by force in 1969. In the 40-odd years that followed, Qadhafi systematically looted the country's oil revenues, waged war against anyone who opposed his rule whether they were western-style democrats or Islamic conservatives; he spent millions of $$ and sent thousands of Libyan soldiers to their deaths in his ridiculous attempt to expand into Chad; he was intimately involved in the supply of arms and ammunition to the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland; he gave sanctuary to mass murderers like Abu Nidal, Carlos 'the Jackal'; it was with Qadhafi's approval that an as-yet unidentified gunman shot dead a British policewoman, Yvonne Fletcher when opening fire on a legtimate demonstration in London against Qadhafi's rule in Libya; and Qadhafi repeatedly insulted the Arab people and conspired to undermine their right to choose their own governments.

3) The destruction to Libya's infrastructure was minimal, and not just because there isn't much to destroy outside the highways, the man-made river, and the oil installations, most of which were untouched.

4) It was because of Qadhafi's reckless political activities that Libya was ostracised by the international system and unable to gain access to the technology that will unlock value in the Libyan oil industry, this was the reason why Qadhafi was prepared to do anthing and say anything to overhaul the petroleum industry in Libya -so it was your hero Qadhafi who signed the contracts with BP, with Shell, and the others. Libya needs a modernised petroleum industry, there is nothing wrong with inviting the latest technology and capital into the country; if in the future the Libyan government wants to nationalise its oil industry again, that is its right.

What you need to do is mount a defence, if you can, of Muammar al-Qadhafi, of Hafiz al-Asad and his son Bashir. Best of luck!

ps Your abusive remarks about Hillary Clinton are unworthy of anyone who posts in HungAngels.

1- i don't really think much about the reason why he was killed, all i was saying is that it is by no means a surprise! and again what u r saying about it being in retaliation for killing someone in alqaida is in line with what i was saying, the USA creates alqaida and then it bites than hand that feeds it.

2- u call bringing someone to power who begged Bernard-Henri Lévy to help him destroy his country and kill 150,000 citizens making things right??? is robbing most of the oil proceeds called modernizing now??? do u know that in tripoli the electricity goes out now for over 8 hours a day???????? do u know that before all this crap, the electricity was free for non commercial use????? do u know that al ghaddafi is seen as a leader by millions of people not just libyans?? and even if he is a dictator, who made NATO/USA god and gave them the right to do this to another country?????? is your information about the damage made to libya coming from CNN????

3- why should the people of a sovereign country have to mount a defense to live in peace?? why don't u mount a defense for destroying iraq and killing 1.5 million people there and dumping countless radio active bombs making the children of falluja all deformed and sick with cancer????? who is the bloody killer, is it our president doctor Bashar Hafez Al Assad or George W. Bush???

how would your country deal with armed rebels beheading people??? would u thank them and hand them the country and the fate of over 23 million syrians???? or would u step up to the task and do what's needed to prevent a country for being sent back to the middle ages???????????

[broncofan]

if somebody acts like that over your father's dead body and smiles and gives the thumbs up, would u be ok with that???

Was Qaddafi your father? I've heard of children divorcing or disowning their parents because they've done unconscionable things. It's of course too late now, but that would be a reasonable option if your father was a murderous thug. Again, I can understand you being emotional about that if you are a close blood relative of Qaddafi, and either way it's a grossly indecent thing he did. Not worthy of being killed, not his killer's motive, and not worthy of celebrating his murder either.

If you're related to Qaddafi you don't have to tell people you know. I have an uncle that we're all a bit embarrassed about as well.

[bishr]

Bishr,
but by your logic then you should also be killed because you are celebrating his death. There is nothing different about what you and he did except that he was celebrating the death of someone with much more blood on his hands. But again, nobody should be killed for being offensive, even in a grossly indecent way. Otherwise, where does that leave you? The killers also gave a different justification for their actions than you do. This is relevant because what you are providing is a post-hoc justification for his death that does not necessarily shed light on the motives of his killers.

But again, of course the government and their supporters would be angry with us for supporting the rebels. Whether doing so actually increases the death toll or a humanitarian crisis depends on the balance of power. In cases where the rebels have no chance whatsoever, aiding them prolongs their misery and increases the death toll.

like i told u, i don't at all like the ones who killed him! and the difference between me and him is that i didn't travel thousands of miles to another country that my army bombed and then took a photo like that with the leader of that country! feeling justice was served is something i felt unwillingly, it is not a decision i made to feel happy about it, can u understand what i mean, i am having trouble finding the right word, my english isn't that good. anyway, if it means i should be killed then so be it, most of us aren't scared of dying, the overwhelming feeling is sadness for seeing our beautiful country being destroyed.

as for the so called rebels, let me just explain something:

1- more than half of them are not syrian, the USA is helping bring them from all over the earth for jihad in syria, so many libyans, tunisians, a huge number coming from yemen now and i am sure u at least read somewhere in the news that the USA is not killing the ones there in yemen who have agreed to move their business to syria. this is not the pro-government numbers, read what every reporter who has been in syria has said including the ones i mentioned earlier in this thread or read what Jacques Bérès the surgeon who was treating the wounded members of the militias has said! just google his name!

2- the USA/saudi/qatar/egypt and most of the other countries sending hte mad jehadists are more than happy to see them die even if they don't achieve their goal. hell, saudi arabia is releasing terrorist prisoners to send them to syria! they are more than happy to get rid of them. nobody wants to shorten their misery.

[bishr]

Bishr,
but by your logic then you should also be killed because you are celebrating his death. There is nothing different about what you and he did except that he was celebrating the death of someone with much more blood on his hands. But again, nobody should be killed for being offensive, even in a grossly indecent way. Otherwise, where does that leave you? The killers also gave a different justification for their actions than you do. This is relevant because what you are providing is a post-hoc justification for his death that does not necessarily shed light on the motives of his killers.

But again, of course the government and their supporters would be angry with us for supporting the rebels. Whether doing so actually increases the death toll or a humanitarian crisis depends on the balance of power. In cases where the rebels have no chance whatsoever, aiding them prolongs their misery and increases the death toll.

Was Qaddafi your father? I've heard of children divorcing or disowning their parents because they've done unconscionable things. It's of course too late now, but that would be a reasonable option if your father was a murderous thug. Again, I can understand you being emotional about that if you are a close blood relative of Qaddafi, and either way it's a grossly indecent thing he did. Not worthy of being killed, not his killer's motive, and not worthy of celebrating his murder either.

If you're related to Qaddafi you don't have to tell people you know. I have an uncle that we're all a bit embarrassed about as well.

i am syrian not libyan, i am not related to him. our cultures are so different, he is a symbol to millions of people who value pride and dignity! he is the leader that got italy to formally apologize for occupying and destroying libya. he is the leader that Silvio Berlusconi used to bend and kiss his hand!

i don't expect u to understand, we r from different worlds.

i don't have to be a blood relative to feel scorned when i see a symbol being humiliated.

[broncofan]

I understand what you mean. I am trying not to judge you too harshly, but we need to be careful even about feeling glad when a bad person (and sometimes this is a matter of opinion) is killed. It's not something everyone agrees on.

Bin Laden was killed, Hitler shot himself, Ariel Sharon had a stroke. All bad men imo and we can argue about their degree of culpability. I was not alive for Hitler, but there's nothing about his death that should bring anyone solace, comfort, or joy. Same goes for Bin Laden and Sharon. I know people celebrated when Bin Laden was killed, but it was a stupid and hollow celebration. Al Qaeda is a franchise now, an aspirational rather than tactical enterprise. The war with their ideology, a vicious and delusional one continues without him. Those who he killed remain dead.

Now this man did far less than any of these individuals. I think the word you're looking for is karma. You may not support what his killers did but you feel he has reaped what he sowed. People do offensive things all the time, and far worse than create mere offense. Their deaths can sometimes prevent further atrocities but otherwise provide no remedy.

[bishr]

I understand what you mean. I am trying not to judge you too harshly, but we need to be careful even about feeling glad when a bad person (and sometimes this is a matter of opinion) is killed. It's not something everyone agrees on.

Bin Laden was killed, Hitler shot himself, Ariel Sharon had a stroke. All bad men imo and we can argue about their degree of culpability. I was not alive for Hitler, but there's nothing about his death that should bring anyone solace, comfort, or joy. Same goes for Bin Laden and Sharon. I know people celebrated when Bin Laden was killed, but it was a stupid and hollow celebration. Al Qaeda is a franchise now, an aspirational rather than tactical enterprise. The war with their ideology, a vicious and delusional one continues without him. Those who he killed remain dead.

Now this man did far less than any of these individuals. I think the word you're looking for is karma. You may not support what his killers did but you feel he has reaped what he sowed. People do offensive things all the time, and far worse than create mere offense. Their deaths can sometimes prevent further atrocities but otherwise provide no remedy.

there is no remedy, no getting even steven, nope! it is a way of life now for many who were hurt.

one last thought about the ambassador, what i INITIALLY said about the incident here in this thread was not that i was happy but that i was totally baffled by the esteemed mrs. clinton talking about a sense of shock or surprise about the incident.

i know about karma! carson daly invented it during an episode of Last Call with Carson Daly! hhhhhhh

[bishr]

this is a video of the armed militias proudly explaining how they arrested and killed several army officers who are fresh graduates from the military engineering academies that were in a mini bus going either home or to attend court proceedings and report back on them (the female officer).

[bishr]

[yosi]

it just baffles me that cunt face clinton would say that americans must be shocked that their ambassador would be killed like that in the exact city the helped rebel against and defeat the late libyan leader mouamar al ghaddafi!!! is she kidding me??? isn't killing 150,000 libyans directly and indirectly but mostly directly with air strikes reason enough??? isn't destroying the country's infrastructure reason enough??? isn't giving a huge percentage of the proceeds from the libyan oil to foreign companies reason enough??? isn't bringing to power people who think beheading is the best way to run a country reason enough???

she talks so affectionately about the families of the killed americans and their children! what about the bombing of al ghaddafi's sons??? what about the bombing of al ghaddafi's grandsons???

how can anyone who so lovingly nurtured the islamic extremists be shocked that they would turn on him/her??? such behavior was made the most basic and instinctive one in them!

If you were living now in Syria and writing the same words about the Syrian foreign minister, would you still be alive to answer this question?

I think both of us know the answer........

[Stavros]

1- i don't really think much about the reason why he was killed, all i was saying is that it is by no means a surprise! and again what u r saying about it being in retaliation for killing someone in alqaida is in line with what i was saying, the USA creates alqaida and then it bites than hand that feeds it.

2- u call bringing someone to power who begged Bernard-Henri Lévy to help him destroy his country and kill 150,000 citizens making things right??? is robbing most of the oil proceeds called modernizing now??? do u know that in tripoli the electricity goes out now for over 8 hours a day???????? do u know that before all this crap, the electricity was free for non commercial use????? do u know that al ghaddafi is seen as a leader by millions of people not just libyans?? and even if he is a dictator, who made NATO/USA god and gave them the right to do this to another country?????? is your information about the damage made to libya coming from CNN????

3- why should the people of a sovereign country have to mount a defense to live in peace?? why don't u mount a defense for destroying iraq and killing 1.5 million people there and dumping countless radio active bombs making the children of falluja all deformed and sick with cancer????? who is the bloody killer, is it our president doctor Bashar Hafez Al Assad or George W. Bush???

how would your country deal with armed rebels beheading people??? would u thank them and hand them the country and the fate of over 23 million syrians???? or would u step up to the task and do what's needed to prevent a country for being sent back to the middle ages???????????

Bishr I dont understand your post. The situation in Afghanistan that nurtured al-Qaeda emerged from the transition from a monarchy to a republic in 1973-74, and the internal conflict among politicians who, frankly, did not expect to be handed power in the circumstances of the time. When the USSR intervened in 1979 it was at root an attempt to promote one faction of the 'Communist Party' and see how far it could go in extending its influece in Southern Asia. The USA was not interested in the internal politics of Afghanistan, it wanted to prevent the spread of influence of the USSR, and bleed the USSR of the funds needed to engage in the war in Afghanistan. If there was one party that was instrumental in helping al-Qaeda develop its 'base' it was Saudi Arabia, and as we know from Turki bin Faisal al-Saud they came to regret it. Saudi Arabia intervened in the war that broke out in the Yemen in 1962, supporting the Imam, while Nasser intervened on behalf of the Republicans -other than sending a lot of people to their deaths, it was not much of an achievement for either side, but was just one of many examples (the guerilla war in Dhofar being another).

Current evens would not be happening if countries like Libya and Syria had not been strangled by dictatorship for 40 odd years.

There is a revolution taking place in the region whose consequences are unknown; I don't believe anyone posting on HungAngels approves of any act of violence in Syria whoever is responsible for it; but if it is a genuine revolution, then 21 months in the life of the Arab Spring is too soon to be making judgements; I would suggest that 10 years is a more reasonable time-frame.

Bashar al-Asad has no legtimacy, he is not elected, he would not be elected if there was an election. The army has not collapsed in spite of defections; Iran is intervening on one side, Saudi Arabia and Qatar on the other, and there is little we can do about it. For what it is worth, more people have been killed, injured and raped in the 'Democratic Reublic of the Congo' since independence in 1960, and all for diamonds and other minerals. The best we can do in these circumstances is to bear witness for those who matter most -the victims.