What makes the Germans so successful?

[hngs]

the idea of race as a concept in a species as geographically connected as humans is just stupid and will become increasingly so as humans from around the world mix their genes more and more

So the concept of race will only fade once its been mixed out of existence? Impeccable logic.

[trish]

Polymorphism is not by itself sufficient reason to create a taxonomic partition of a species. Persistent cross migration and cross breeding between polymorphic forms mitigate any such partitioning. Reproductive isolation is a definite requirement as well as the absence of intermediate forms. So yes, the logic is indeed impeccable. Life is dynamic. Forms merge and forms divide with time. Within human history it is questionable whether there ever was sufficient polymorphism, reproductive isolation and absence of intermediate forms to justify a taxonomic division into races. Sorry to disappoint you.

[broncofan]

hngs,
The conversation about whether there is genetic diversity between races sufficient to segment them into distinct categories is a red herring. The reason I say this is because your claim that the disappearance of racial homogeneity is responsible for the weakening of the American economy is a smokescreen for an otherwise transparent white supremacist argument.

There are many poor societies that are racially homogenous. What you are arguing is that Germany is racially homogenous and that their genes are superior. Racial differences relating to skin color, resistance to disease, to uv rays by no means indicate that one race is ascendant over the rest in terms of mental or physical ability. Since you seem to be claiming as much you should at least be honest and admit it.

The rest of your arguments only further expose your bias against non-European individuals. I tend to trust African-Americans when they tell me that segregation was dehumanizing and evil. This is not just because the Supreme Court acknowledged this in its landmark decision, Brown v. Board of Education, where it said that the purpose of segregation was not mere separation of the races but the subordination and marginalization of Black people. No, this is because there are real life witnesses that can describe for you the injustice of segregation if you care to listen.

And no, German society under the Nazis could not be described as integrated when some people were being rounded up into camps and liquidated. German society today can make that claim much more convincingly, but you don't attribute their success to that trend because you have an agenda. The rest is all a subtle ruse on your part to contradict what many esteemed humanists have oft-said, that all men are created equal.

[hngs]

hngs,
The reason I say this is because your claim that the disappearance of racial homogeneity is responsible for the weakening of the American economy is a smokescreen for an otherwise transparent white supremacist argument.

No it isn't. I believe in freedom. People should have the free choice of associating with whomever they want or don't want to, without petty tyrants like yourself forcing them to mix at gunpoint, which is what happened after BvB. You really need to consider where you are posting. This is a board for tranny chasers and you're calling me a white supremacist. This is the smirking level of crazy I was talking about earlier.

What you are arguing is that Germany is racially homogenous and that their genes are superior.

Did I say this? Where? I believe I just pointed out that German society is the result of Germans. The fact that you consider Germany superior is simply your view. I didn't say it.

The rest of your arguments only further expose your bias against non-European individuals. I tend to trust African-Americans when they tell me that segregation was dehumanizing and evil.

I tend to trust the social indices that say that African Americans had a healthier society before they were forced to mix with whites. I'm also convinced that Africa was better for Africans before whites went there. This allows the indigenous people to create societies of which they are capable without having some tyrant issue their system of governance upon them.

And no, German society under the Nazis could not be described as integrated

Talk about a red herring. That's not what I said. What I said was that in the 1936 Olympics, Jesse Owens was allowed to stay in the Olympic village with the other athletes, whereas in the United States he was not allowed to drink out of the same fountain as a white. This is absolute fact. So by your illogic, Nazi Germany was a more tolerant society. Understand? No, you don't, which is the problem. I'm simply rephrasing what you believe and all of a sudden it becomes a massive insult.

[trish]

To claim that German society is the result of Germans is to ignore the fact that every European society has been heavily influenced by a Middle Eastern desert prophet claiming to be the son of the god of creation. It ignores the fact that there would be no German society without the Marshall Plan and that the German economy depends upon work permits and the immigrant labor who have little hope of ever being citizens.

[Stavros]

Curious that Adolf Hitler in his time, and the Germans before during and after two world wars right up to the present day -and for good reason- idolised, manipulated, and ultimately have just enjoyed the music of a German described by one biographer thus:

"His somewhat flat broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes and swarthy [dark] complexion, pockmarked into the bargain, gave him a strong resemblance to a mulatto.”

When he moved to Vienna and develop one of the most illustrious careers in music, this Heroic German lived for a while in a place known as the Schwarzspanierhaus, the house of Black Spaniards. The belief is that the family had originated in Belgium and that during the age when Spain ruled the Low Countries, Africans who had migrated to Spain arrived in Belgium through the armed forces, or as traders, who knows?

And if that isn't enough, consider the Ethiopian called Ibrahim Petrovich Gannibal, the grandfather of the man considered to be simply the best Russian poet of all time, and would you adam and eve it, one of the grand-daughters of this most Illustrious [er, and Black] Poet of All the Russias, married a grandson of Queen Victoria called George Battenberg...but let's not go there!

As the poet said:

Not for the wordy agitation,
Not for the gold or bloody ways,
We have been born for inspiration,
For charming sounds and for prayers.

Alle menscher werden Bruder indeed!

[muh_muh]

and the immigrant labor who have little hope of ever being citizens.

where the hell does that come from? that is patently false
basically anybody who has been living and working in germany legally for 8 years has the right to become a german citizen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...German_citizen

[trish]

Good to know, much_muh. I obviously labored under the opposite impression. Has this been the law for some time? In any case, it makes my point even stronger: Given their numbers, immigrants have a strong influence on German culture and society, especially if they are allowed to integrate into that society.

[muh_muh]

dunno but i dont remember that there ever were any strong restricions on becomming a german citizen as long as you fullfilled some basic requirements
the reason most immigrants dont is usual national pride and that there really is hardly any benefit to it other than being able to vote
as far as i know immigrants are elligible to pretty much every social security german citizens are including unemployment benefits free schooling etc

[broncofan]

I also don't think it's right for the impression to be created that those who attribute economic success to race or genetics are pro-German and those who think the Germans have probably made sound fiscal decisions are not. I think it is truly ironic that decades after Germany abandoned the militarism of the 30's and 40's, developed an open and free society and began to thrive that some would argue that the ideology underpinning those dark years is responsible. That's some policy lag if I might say so.

And we see many forms of this argument. Some say it's racial homogeneity and not something about the Germans. Before attacking the theoretical deficiencies of this argument, this creates the impression that Germany is an apartheid society, which it is not.

But theoretically, such an argument implies that mixing races is like mixing oil and water and that there's some sort of biological incompatibility among races; people who in fact are fundamentally so similar that our species is a genetic bottleneck compared to others. You don't see a Jew or a Mexican or a Black guy in a workplace who are somehow unable to communicate or work together or be civil. This is a total myth.

And the ideas being promoted above are similar to the reasoning in Plessy v. Ferguson where the Justices to their shame argued that separate but equal doctrine was only seen as racist because of the construction put on it by minorities. This nonsense was later repudiated in Brown v. Board of Education. The separate but equal doctrine was never intended to be coherent and never intended to live up to its name. First, there were dozens of ethnic groups who could not be classified as either black or white and so under a literal interpretation could not use any of the duplicate institutions. Second, the effort required to duplicate institutions for every race is not just insane but would be extremely inefficient. Third, there was not literal equality as the institutions provided for African-Americans were substandard by design as African-Americans were intentionally kept from enjoying the privileges of full citizenship that was promised to them by the 14th amendment.

Supporting this defunct, bogus doctrine is self-discrediting and claiming that being on a tranny forum forecloses any argument that you could make a racist argument is equally foolish. The problems that exist in the African-American community are not a product of too much freedom or because our society is too inclusive. They certainly would not be fixed by segmenting our society into racial spheres where people don't live or work together and ride separate cars on the train. And I haven't seen any evidence that such a system exists in Germany or is responsible for their economic success. Nor is there any evidence that allowing African-Americans to dine at restaurants with white folks has created all sorts of social ills. But please do tell me about the dangers of not being able to put up signs such as "no blacks allowed."