17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?

[mildcigar_2001]

Even Jeb Bush the governor who implemented the SYG law said that it didn't apply to Zimmerman.

I think last summers riots in London demonstrate what happens when you deny law abiding citizens guns and tell them that they can't defend themselves or their property. Look what happened when the police become overwhelmed. The law abiding citizen is left to the tender mercy of thugs.

At least here in America, I'm able to defend myself and my business from rioters. If someone tries to burn down or steal my property they will be shot. That is the essence of stand your ground laws, that the law abiding citizen should not have to run away from criminals.

[Silcc69]

I think last summers riots in London demonstrate what happens when you deny law abiding citizens guns and tell them that they can't defend themselves or their property. Look what happened when the police become overwhelmed. The law abiding citizen is left to the tender mercy of thugs.

At least here in America, I'm able to defend myself and my business from rioters. If someone tries to burn down or steal my property they will be shot. That is the essence of stand your ground laws, that the law abiding citizen should not have to run away from criminals.

But that didn't apply to Zimmerman who decided to chase somebody down when he wasn't suppose to.

[giovanni_hotel]

If you own a store and its overrun by 'rioters' if you murder 20 looters good luck avoiding a lifetime in prison.
Castle laws are meant to prevent someone from stealing your property; if someone is stealing a TV from your store, you aren't then allowed to used lethal force to protect your property.

[Stavros]

I think last summers riots in London demonstrate what happens when you deny law abiding citizens guns and tell them that they can't defend themselves or their property. Look what happened when the police become overwhelmed. The law abiding citizen is left to the tender mercy of thugs.

At least here in America, I'm able to defend myself and my business from rioters. If someone tries to burn down or steal my property they will be shot. That is the essence of stand your ground laws, that the law abiding citizen should not have to run away from criminals.

In fact it was to a great extent a gun that sparked the riots in London -the first riot was a response to the murder of a suspect: the man who was shot dead by the police had a gun in his possession, which is why it was the armed police who were sent to arrest him; he would otherwise have been arrested like anyone else, and still be alive today. Guns have always been available to hardened criminals in this country, but since the break-up of the USSR the availability of relatively cheap guns from eastern Europe and Russia has led to even minor gang members having access to a gun, to borrow or own. This has given crime an extra dimension it did not have when blades and fists were the weapon of choice.

As for the police tactics, are you seriously suggesting that shop owners should be allowed to kill people who raid their premises? What happens after that? This is the UK, not Tombstone or the OK Corral; it may not be perfect, but RobertLouis is wrong, we don't have the toughest gun laws in the world; they are far too lenient. It is now clear that the only way for this country (the UK) to go, is to get really tough and ban all firearms, with the exception of those needed by farmers. Too many men with access to guns who also had known mental health problems have gone ape and killed their own families and innocent passers by. The regulations didnt work. If it means the end of gun clubs for sport, I think that is a small price to pay. Dog-fighting used to be a 'sport' in this country, and though it sometimes happens in secret, it is a sickness that has been eradicated. Time for the guns to go.

Rather this thread focus on the Trayvon Martin killing, we have discussed guns before on HA with no conclusion.

[mildcigar_2001]

[As for the police tactics, are you seriously suggesting that shop owners should be allowed to kill people who raid their premises?


Yes, I am seriously suggesting that if someone is taking you hard earned property without your permission that you are allowed to use physical force to prevent them doing such (including the use of a firearm). Are we supposed to mill about like so many sheep while others destroy what has often taken a lifetime to build. The Korean shopkeepers who defended their stores with handguns during the Los Angeles riots (of almost 20 years ago) are a good example of this.

The British seem to afford too many "rights" to Thugs. Once again as the London riots demonstrate the police often cant's be everywhere at once, and you need to be able to protect yourself, your family and your business. This is a matter is civilization being willing to protect itself against the barbarians. We will get into big trouble when we start trying to buy them off (the dole) rather than standing up to them and demanding civilized behavior.

As for Mr. Zimmerman, I don't know what transpired, but the latest information has the 17 year old attacking him versus the kid being hunted down because he is black.

[Silcc69]

[As for the police tactics, are you seriously suggesting that shop owners should be allowed to kill people who raid their premises?


Yes, I am seriously suggesting that if someone is taking you hard earned property without your permission that you are allowed to use physical force to prevent them doing such (including the use of a firearm). Are we supposed to mill about like so many sheep while others destroy what has often taken a lifetime to build. The Korean shopkeepers who defended their stores with handguns during the Los Angeles riots (of almost 20 years ago) are a good example of this.

The British seem to afford too many "rights" to Thugs. Once again as the London riots demonstrate the police often cant's be everywhere at once, and you need to be able to protect yourself, your family and your business. This is a matter is civilization being willing to protect itself against the barbarians. We will get into big trouble when we start trying to buy them off (the dole) rather than standing up to them and demanding civilized behavior.

As for Mr. Zimmerman, I don't know what transpired, but the latest information has the 17 year old attacking him versus the kid being hunted down because he is black.

What part of the 911 responder call of don't pursue did you not understand? Had Zimmerman NOT pursued like he was told not to do then none of this shit would've happened.

[giovanni_hotel]

You can't START A FIGHT with an unarmed stranger, proceed to get your fat ass whupped, then pull out a 9mm and smoke the other guy and 'claim' self-defense.

The outrage over this case stems more in part that Zimmerman wasn't arrested on probable cause and his WORD was taken as fact instead of police doing a thorough investigation,( interviewing witnesses, checking the calls on Trayvon's cell before he was killed, etc.).

If Zimmerman NEVER gets out of his SUV, there is no story.

Why don't people understand that you as a private citizen don't have the RIGHT to label people criminals who only are walking home at night, confront and attempt to detain them and when they refuse, or try to fight you, you then have the right to shoot them dead.

Imagine some asshole is following YOU home in the middle of the night and asks, 'what are you doing here?','who are you?', and your accuser isn't even a police officer??

I know if I were Trayvon, as soon as Zimmerman got in range after telling that prick to 'back up off me', I'm swinging on him.

THat's the difference between SELF DEFENSE and being a stalker.

[Stavros]

[As for the police tactics, are you seriously suggesting that shop owners should be allowed to kill people who raid their premises?


Yes, I am seriously suggesting that if someone is taking you hard earned property without your permission that you are allowed to use physical force to prevent them doing such (including the use of a firearm). Are we supposed to mill about like so many sheep while others destroy what has often taken a lifetime to build. The Korean shopkeepers who defended their stores with handguns during the Los Angeles riots (of almost 20 years ago) are a good example of this.

The British seem to afford too many "rights" to Thugs. Once again as the London riots demonstrate the police often cant's be everywhere at once, and you need to be able to protect yourself, your family and your business. This is a matter is civilization being willing to protect itself against the barbarians. We will get into big trouble when we start trying to buy them off (the dole) rather than standing up to them and demanding civilized behavior.

As for Mr. Zimmerman, I don't know what transpired, but the latest information has the 17 year old attacking him versus the kid being hunted down because he is black.

But surely the key point is precisely whether or not a private citizen should have a 'right to kill', which even in the case of Florida and its 'stand your ground' concept has been challenged on this board. So it is not as simple as it sounds, and does not account for those events in which a shopkeeper shoots someone dead because he doesn't like the look of them, or because they tried to steal a packet of chewing gum.

The police were taken by surprise on that first night in Tottenham and on the subsequent nights across the country; it is widely believed they got their tactics wrong, which presumably means that in future they will deploy in a different way. Not much consolation to shopkeepers who did lose everything, some of whom were not insured and who will find new insurance harder and more expensive. For what its worth, most of the rioters who ended up in court have had more severe sentences handed down than is normally the case; you can't say they got away with it.

[mildcigar_2001]

Imagine some asshole is following YOU home in the middle of the night and asks, 'what are you doing here?','who are you?', and your accuser isn't even a police officer??


People have a right and a duty to "police" their own neighborhoods. Especially in a gated community (which I believe was the case in the current controversey).

All the facts are not yet out, but it seems like this might be another case (like the Duke rape case), that the race hustlers choose a side without regard to the facts. When some communities always cry "wolf," it becomes more difficult believe them when something truly happens. (tawanah brawley, duke rape case, girl from Berkely who had a noose nailed to her dorm room, and these examples are just off the top of my head).

[Silcc69]

Imagine some asshole is following YOU home in the middle of the night and asks, 'what are you doing here?','who are you?', and your accuser isn't even a police officer??


People have a right and a duty to "police" their own neighborhoods. Especially in a gated community (which I believe was the case in the current controversey).

All the facts are not yet out, but it seems like this might be another case (like the Duke rape case), that the race hustlers choose a side without regard to the facts. When some communities always cry "wolf," it becomes more difficult believe them when something truly happens. (tawanah brawley, duke rape case, girl from Berkely who had a noose nailed to her dorm room, and these examples are just off the top of my head).

Again what part of the 911 responder call did YOU not get?