Embarassing

[russtafa]

You are obviously confused about the NATO campaign -the Taliban were not responsible for 9/11, al-Qaeda was. You might recall after the 'triumph' of allied bombing in late 2001 and early 2002 which ended the Taliban rule of Afghanistan and shattered al-Qaeda in Afghanistan forcing bin Laden, al_Zawahiri and others to flee, the US, the UK and their allies abandoned Afghanistan to the warlords.

The Taliban are not terrorists, they are fighting to free their country from foreign occupation -the foreign troops from the very same countries who crowed about their victory ten years ago. And when you have stopped shedding tears for all those young lads (and lasses) who have been killed or injured there, are you going to give much thought to the 30-40-50 year old officers who 'control' them? Innocents abroad? Not really. Presumably if this was 1980 and you were living in London you would be advocating the mass slaughter of 'Irish dogs' -??

you have just stated the biggest load of crap the Taliban aided Al-Qaeda and they the Taliban still control large parts Afganistan .i don't care about the Irish they are Christian.

[Stavros]

The Taliban may have given al-Qaeda licence to operate in Afghanistan, but that is not the same as being part of the 9/11 operation, even part of the leadership of al-Qaeda at the time didn't know and also, did not approve of the operation and left the group because of that. The 'Arabi' as local people referred to al-Qaeda and many of the foreign Mujahideen who stayed behind after the USSR left, were hated and there was evidence that even Mullah Omar was responding to pressure to throw bin Laden out of the country. The Taliban was nurtured in Pakistan but it is mostly Afghan and they don't control large parts of Afghanistan, there are approximately 25,000 of them -making them impossible to defeat militarily. Because they present themselves in rural areas as champions of local issues, where the officials locally and nationally are corrupt, they have more support than they deserve -the real issue here is why the central government that has been in receipt of staggering sums of money, has failed in all of its obectives, which is why NATO forces are still there.

As for the Irish, you are obviously unaware of the extent of anti-Irtish feeling that developed in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, every bit as bad as the things you have said about Muslims. But you pick and choose your villains anyway.

[Prospero]

Stavros...."Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep
With phantoms an unprofitable strife."

[russtafa]

The Taliban may have given al-Qaeda licence to operate in Afghanistan, but that is not the same as being part of the 9/11 operation, even part of the leadership of al-Qaeda at the time didn't know and also, did not approve of the operation and left the group because of that. The 'Arabi' as local people referred to al-Qaeda and many of the foreign Mujahideen who stayed behind after the USSR left, were hated and there was evidence that even Mullah Omar was responding to pressure to throw bin Laden out of the country. The Taliban was nurtured in Pakistan but it is mostly Afghan and they don't control large parts of Afghanistan, there are approximately 25,000 of them -making them impossible to defeat militarily. Because they present themselves in rural areas as champions of local issues, where the officials locally and nationally are corrupt, they have more support than they deserve -the real issue here is why the central government that has been in receipt of staggering sums of money, has failed in all of its obectives, which is why NATO forces are still there.

As for the Irish, you are obviously unaware of the extent of anti-Irtish feeling that developed in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, every bit as bad as the things you have said about Muslims. But you pick and choose your villains anyway.

Lots of Irish in Australia and we have no problem with them but Arabs and Muslims are not liked in Australia.I thought that troops should never been put in that filthy pace called Afghanistan just keep bombing the fuck out of the rate hole .i know you and your fellow Brits love the vile muslims and you want more of them you can have ours if you want? we don't want them!

[robertlouis]

Stavros...."Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep
With phantoms an unprofitable strife."

Or, more succinctly, a pearls and swine scenario......

[russtafa]

i know Britian is an islamic country and you have sharia law so i reckon you would love to have our drive by ,drug dealing towel heads by the boatload .when should we start sending them?oh ours don't like working so they will all expect the dole and firearms plus a chem lab so you lot better get working

[Prospero]

So droll Russtafa

[Stavros]

i know Britian is an islamic country and you have sharia law so i reckon you would love to have our drive by ,drug dealing towel heads by the boatload .when should we start sending them?oh ours don't like working so they will all expect the dole and firearms plus a chem lab so you lot better get working

I think you have not understood the point I was trying to make. In the 1970s and 1980s the Provisional IRA bombed London and other cities many more times than we have been bombed by extremist Muslims, and the Irish were collectively abused by many people because of that, if you were as old as me its a case of having heard it all before.

Look at it this way, in the 1880s there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Italian immigrants were 'coming over here' -as indeed they were- and that they were bringing with them crime and disease. A medical journal called The Lancet even published a scurrilous article on the concentration of Italians in the Holborn area (near our Kings Cross) but when the London County Council Medical Officer wrote a report, he noted that Italian homes were the cleanest in that area of low-quality overcrowded buildings, compared to Irish and English homes; that there were less incidences of disease, and that the so-called crime was Italian men arguing over card games but getting arrested because of needlessly excessive policing (sound familiar?).

Twenty years later there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Jews from Russia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland all wearing fancy dress and weird haircuts were flooding into London and bringing crime and disease...one of the things that the Orthodox Jewish communities established in the UK was the Beth Din, the Jewish court which provides authentic certificates for Kosher butchers and bakers, and that issues the Get which is the formal religious acknowledgement of Divorce, and many women bitterly complain that they can get divorced in an English court but if the Beth Din declines to give it, they cannot remarry -and these are observant Jews for whom the religious edict is crucial. Physically too, there is now an Eruv in an area of North-West London which demarcates the area in which observant Jews are not allowed to drive a car on the Sabbath, and so on; there are wires and things on telegraph poles so that Jews can tell where they are.

So yes, as with Jewish law, there is a similar version of Shari'a law which provides Muslims with a religious version of divorce; there are Imams who offer advice, or fatwa just as Catholics go to Confession, and devout Buddhists can seek out a monk for guidance on an issue the Law of England cannot deal with. It is all part of living in a multi-cultural society in which we tolerate a variety of religions, it is not part of the price we pay for freedom, an unacceptable cost, it is a benefit. It is one of the reasons why people want to live in this country.


Muslims make up barely 5% of the population of the UK, Islam is the second biggest religion after Christianity, yet :
A 2009 survey of the attitudes of British Muslims found them to identify more strongly with the UK than the rest of the population, with a much higher regard for the country's institutions, and to be more tolerant towards people of other religions. However, the vast majority of them have strongly conservative views on moral issues such as homosexuality and extra-marital sex, both differing dramatically from those held by the rest of the British population.

I suggest that your depiction of the Muslims in Britain is, shall we say, ill-informed.

[russtafa]

I think you have not understood the point I was trying to make. In the 1970s and 1980s the Provisional IRA bombed London and other cities many more times than we have been bombed by extremist Muslims, and the Irish were collectively abused by many people because of that, if you were as old as me its a case of having heard it all before.

Look at it this way, in the 1880s there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Italian immigrants were 'coming over here' -as indeed they were- and that they were bringing with them crime and disease. A medical journal called The Lancet even published a scurrilous article on the concentration of Italians in the Holborn area (near our Kings Cross) but when the London County Council Medical Officer wrote a report, he noted that Italian homes were the cleanest in that area of low-quality overcrowded buildings, compared to Irish and English homes; that there were less incidences of disease, and that the so-called crime was Italian men arguing over card but getting arrested because of needlessly excessive policing (sound familiar?).

Twenty years later there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Jews from Russia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland all wearing fancy dress and weird haircuts were flooding into London and bringing crime and disease...one of the things that the Orthodox Jewish communities established in the UK was the Beth Din, the Jewish court which provides authentic certificates for Kosher butchers and bakers, and that issues the Get which is the formal religious acknowledgement of Divorce, and many women bitterly complain that they can get divorced in an English court but if the Beth Din declines to give it, they cannot remarry -and these are observant Jews for whom the religious edict is crucial. Physically too, there is now an Eruv in an area of North-West London which demarcates the area in which observant Jews are not allowed to drive a car on the Sabbath, and so on; there are wires and things on telegraph poles so that Jews can tell where they are.

So yes, as with Jewish law, there is a similar version of Shari'a law which provides Muslims with a religious version of divorce; there are Imams who offer advice, or fatwa just as Catholics go to Confession, and devout Buddhists can seek out a monk for guidance on an issue the Law of England cannot deal with. It is all part of living in a multi-cultural society in which we tolerate a variety of religions, it is not part of the price we pay for freedom, an unacceptable cost, it is a benefit. It is one of the reasons why people want to live in this country.


Muslims make up barely 5% of the population of the UK, Islam is the second biggest religion after Christianity, yet :
A 2009 survey of the attitudes of British Muslims found them to identify more strongly with the UK than the rest of the population, with a much higher regard for the country's institutions, and to be more tolerant towards people of other religions. However, the vast majority of them have strongly conservative views on moral issues such as homosexuality and extra-marital sex, both differing dramatically from those held by the rest of the British population.

I suggest that your depiction of the Muslims in Britain is, shall we say, ill-informed.

yeah and if you want to cop that shit it's up to you poms but i reckon FUCK THAT FOR A JOKE.But the average Aussie now thinks of Britain as a fucking right off,not that we can talk with our bloody useless politicians doing their best to fuck this great country of ours with these lebo/bike gangs and these boaties on the state housing

[Prospero]

lol... a morlock writes