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With the recent news of Martina Navratilova this is a touchy topicQuote:
Standing at six-foot-two and weighing-in at 220 pounds, male-to-female transgender handballer Hannah Mouncey is dominating at the women's Asian Championships in Japan.
Martina Navratilova says some foolish things, but that is because she is not much of an intellectual and is responding in an emotional way. A close friend who had SRS a while ago takes a pragmatic view of the opportunities that transgendered people have, as in: 'you can't have everything'. She doesn't think pre or post-ops should take part in female beauty pageants, for example. And, while we can agree that there should not be an impediment to transgendered people having access to employment, careers and so forth, competitive contact sports where height, weight and reach may be decisive in success, beg the question if for those reasons a transgendered person has an advantage over the other.
The issue has emerged most controversially twice -the first with the East German women in the 1960s on a diet of testosterone and other drugs that earned them Olympic medals in field sports -a regime which the athletes later conceded damaged them for the rest of their lives; and the case of Caster Semenya whose success in track events led the International Association of Athletics Federations to order her to undertake tests the results of which, not made public but leaked, concluded she was 'intersexed'. I am not sure if this status has been formally verified, and it may not matter, the question is does she have an unfair advantage over other female athletes? She doesn't win every race, and it is hard to know, for example, if she has won races because of her biology or because the other competitors were not that good on the day, or just because she can run faster and would run faster were she male or female.
The difficulty this poses has been traumatic for Semenya, I can't think in recent times of a sportsperson subjected to such intrusive enquiries into their body and biology, but the moral dilemma remains, with regard to competitive advantage, and in this instance I suggest that the only logical solutions are either to ban single sex competition so that males, females and the rest all compete with each other, or that the simple division of Male and Female remain, and transgendered people accept that in some sports, there is no space for them. It might be different in sports like Snooker, Darts, Curling -non contact sports, but I think there are options which can be offered without people getting too upset about it.
it would never be fair tbh, someone will always point out the advantage.
I don't know much about handball. Being taller and stronger is definitely an advantage in Australian rules football, but how much is it in handball?
There's no doubt it's a tricky issue that requires balancing different considerations. I'm not sure it's helpful to make absolutist claims that the only thing that matters is whether a person self-identifies as a female. But it's also not helpful to suggest that men would turn transsexual just to win competitions and then change back later.
Care to elaborate on recent Navratilova controversy?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFanti
See this article for example
https://www.ubitennis.net/2019/02/ma...nder-athletes/
Thanks for the updateQuote:
Originally Posted by filghy2
It is a tricky issue but I tend to agree with Martina thats its mostly always going to be an unfair advantage. I am not transphobic and I do not think she is either. But when you are born a male and decide to transition and play against women its not a level playing field.. I seem to recall a M to F fighter who fractured a womans skull even...I dont have the answers for it...just my two cents
Fallon Fox. I talked about her before on a video, but I deleted it. I agree I don't think anyone on hormones should be in sport competitions. There's advantages that hormones don't reverse for MtF going against females. I don't think FtM's should even be allowed to compete with men out of their own safety. There have been MtF figures in sports before that no one ever talks about because they aren't hurting anyone or winners. People typically only make it an issue if you're winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murmdrum
If I remember correctly Fallon Fox is a MtF fighter that trained and competed as a male from like a teenager till she was like 30, then after transitioning for 2 years when she was 32 she competed as woman and would win all the time and hurt females.
This is an example of some of the transexual community overplaying their hand, and the patent unfairness of it to genetic women athletes is going to cause a backlash against transexuals in general.
Transexuals should have equal rights, but not abuse the privilege.
I can't even imagine the narcissistic nature of some transexuals who think they are accomplishing something by competing against women in sports where mass and muscle make a large competitive advantage. It would be like me playing tennis against elementary school students and being proud of myself for beating them.
Something similar is going on in some quarters of the black community (which started out seeking "equal rights"), and now agitates for reparations.
If a minority community (transexual, black, etc.) goes too far with its demands, after a while there will be a substantial backlash when society in general now perceives that group as asking for an unfair advantage. When that happens hard won civil rights gains will be lost.
for the record, I meant to vote the post UP (not down as my fat fingers did on this iPhone. )Quote:
Originally Posted by mildcigar_2001
I hope she gets good blowjobs when the party is over.
And you wonder why there's hostility on here towards you?...Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBad
Attachment 1134964
The existential politics of blackness don't need your approval, narration or parallels - you just sound like a left-leaning colonial legacy piglet. Sorry, but nothing in the LGBTQ spectrum qualifies you to understand many of the political standpoints that constitute our disjointed discourse.Quote:
Originally Posted by mildcigar_2001
Could we stick to gender dysmorphia, rather than holocausts and culture interruptus. XX or XY is much more expedient than "do they still suffer from being labelled 3/5's man, whilst being socially, mentally, sexually and physically eviscerated, across both landmass and generations in this modern era?"
This is about gender, which doesn't parallel well with race...
Back on subject, 2 words - fallon fox; it's not right, there are clear cross-sections where the idea of rights for non cis women clearly infracts on the rights of the historically disenfranchised. This is one of them. A transgender boxer vs a cisgender one? A transgender weightlifter vs a cisgender one?
Cmon dear people... Seriously?? Am I off?!
Another example of some folks taking unfair advantage:
https://www.thenewstribune.com/sport...226719779.html
This has to be a bitter pill to swallow for female athletes.
"Connecticut is one of 17 states that allow transgender high school athletes to compete without restrictions" This means with no hormone therapy or castration. That is actually insane.
The only way transgirls/transwomen should be allowed to compete with females is if they undergone hormones under puberty age in my opinion (which eliminates nearly everyone.) Once the body starts puberty there are irreversible changes to the body that can't be undone with hormones during or after puberty, but if you start hormone treatment before puberty you will not have any of your body affected by testosterone that it would be there without hormones.
SMH, headline could have at least used she/her and display some basic respect
You are unlikely to find much respect for transsexuals on a website like the Daily Wire. It's been identified as a site with an extreme right-wing bias that tends to publish false stories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Wire
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-daily-wire/
The claim that Hannah Mouncey has been dominating women's handball is actually quite misleading. In fact, she's not listed among the top goal scorers at the Asian Championships. She does not even appear to have been the best player in the Australian team, which only finished in 5th place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_A...l_Championship
I'm not saying that her perspective is necessarily right, but people really should check their preconceptions against the facts before getting up on a soapbox.
What? She doesn't deserve a blowjob after all that hard work?Quote:
Originally Posted by Laphroaig
Totally agree Lily.Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyRox
Some of you are failing to account for what I have (just now) decided to call the "Brexit Effect," wherein a group of people lock themselves into an ultimately undesirable course of action from which they cannot escape except by undermining themselves. In this case, the course of action is #Inclusiveness, and the contradiction would be if institution-tier sports organizations suddenly start banning transgender participants.
Because that's the tangled nest where hard reality and natural law begin to mesh uncomfortably with political correctness.
I think anyone with a 3-digit IQ would agree that an ex-male has a competitive advantage in female sports. At the same time, the current social zeitgeist is that it's wrong to ban transgender people from full participation in the milieu of their new gender. So we're going to draw a line? At sports? Only sports? Which sports? Also, if a MtF transgender woman is barred from playing, say, professional women's tennis, does that mean she would be allowed to play men's tennis? Even though she is legally a female?
Lots of questions to be answered. I'll be watching, and hoping my beloved t-girls get the desired outcome. But I predict a huge clusterfuck.
No trans-woman would play vs men at a sport. Not because they wouldn't win, but because they would get slaughtered. Probably even more so than females getting hurt by a fully transitioned trans-woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Danger
Here is a post I made last year in the thread about the FTM transgender wrestler Mack Beggs. I think it qualifies for this discussion:
When this story was first posted, I wanted to wait a couple of days to gather my thoughts about it. Its one of those stories that is going to cause a reaction no matter what side of the aisle a person sits on and I think its one of those situations where nuance is needed.
First, should the University Interscholastic League adopt a new rule that allows transgendered people to compete against the gender that isn't listed on their birth certificate?- Yes. I think they should come up with something similar to the NCAA's rules:
"trans male (FTM) student-athlete who has received a medical exception for treatment with testosterone for diagnosed Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for purposes of NCAA competition may compete on a men’s team, but is no longer eligible to compete on a women’s team without changing that team status to a mixed team".
"trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment".
This way you're being fair to the transgendered person and you're preserving the the integrity of women’s sports.
Second, I think it is fair to question whether or not Mack has an unfair advantage over his female opponents due to the testosterone injections he is receiving. It would be interesting to see what his record was before he started transitioning. From the two articles that I read, I haven't seen it mentioned.
Third, I think you can have empathy for Mack's situation. But at same time, think it isn't right that he is competing against female wrestlers. Especially when you consider that he is going to get the chance to compete against other boys on the national level. A decision that was reached last year. So its also fair to wonder if he should have competed in this year's state tournament.
Finally, I'm all for people following their dreams. I also understand that starting the transitioning process is an important step in a transgendered person's life. But sometimes in life people have prioritize what's most important to them. So I think its fair to ask whether Mack should have either waited to begin transitioning until he was done competing at the high school level or stopped competing altogether while he was doing so.
That suggests that any transsexual with sporting ability is in an impossible situation. Sure, they could compete in transsexual-only competitions, but that would mean their opportunities are fairly limited in most sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyRox
In some sports where strength is important they divide the competition into weight classes. Maybe that's one way to ensure competition is reasonably fair.
Don't they have weight classes in wrestling, which would tend to limit this advantage? Is a male stronger that a female with the same weight and the same body fat percentage? Or is it that he would be in the top weight class where there is no upper limit?Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchubby38
Slaughtered, yes, I agree. I'm only questioning the sticky legal issues, i.e., if you say someone is barred from women's sports because they used to be a man, then how do you now classify them for competitive purposes? If an organization is going to use someone's maleness against them but another organization refuses to accept their maleness, then we are at an impasse.Quote:
Originally Posted by LilyRox
I'm not sure that would be a problem because the male and female sides of most sports would be affiliated, which should ensure the rules are consistent. The problem is that most transsexuals don't want to compete with men because they would be at a physical disadvantage and because the culture would be intimidating. Men's sport is still pretty macho and there aren't many gay male sportsmen who come out openly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Danger
We'll see I guess. I know that, as an example, the NBA owns the WNBA. But does that mean they are legally obligated to respect the same standards of inclusion? I feel comfortable saying there are attorneys who could argue otherwise, and eventually probably will do that very thing. Because as much as we now seem to be talking as if it will never happen, my experience tells me that everything that can happen eventually does happen. At some point there will be a MtF transgender woman who is trying to play in the WNBA but is good enough to play in the NBA and would totally dominate the WNBA. There will be a faction that does not want to see her included as a woman, and a faction that does want her included as a woman. Likewise, if the situation progresses to that unimaginable "thing" where she is denied playing in the WNBA because of hormones but then wants to play in the NBA, there will be a faction that wants her included as a man and a faction that doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by filghy2
The same thing is going to happen in tennis, and golf, and other sports.
I seriously doubt it's going to be an easily-addressed black-and-white type of issue. I think when it happens - and what we are seeing now is "it" happening but only the tip of the iceberg; there's no big American professional sports money on the line yet - we are going to see a lot of ugliness from everyone involved. There will be lawsuits and memes. The system will truly be put to the test.
And while I'm holding forth on this subject, I might as well throw one more thing out there that occurs to me about the trangenders in sports thing.
At some point during this transition from a world in which transgenders were marginalized to one in which they are included, we as a society are going to have to definitively answer the question: At what point in the transition process is a person legally entitled to claim the opposite gender? Is a man legally considered a woman when she begins hormones? Does she have to be on the hormones X amount of time before legal consideration is due? Does she have to have SRS? Or is she a woman at the very beginning of the process, when she makes the decision to transition?
I mean if we're not careful, and thorough, about the way we handle transgenders in sports, it's going to get weird. The rules could bend in such a way that any man who wanted to play women's professional sports would simply have to declare their gender, put on a wig, stuff a bra, shave real close, and then start whooping the hell out of genetic girls at every sport out there.
Obviously no one wants that to happen. But in a world where gender truly is just a personal choice and no further caveats are advanced, that's exactly how it will be.
So there's a lot of work to do. The subject of Transgenders In Sports is going to force society to answer every awkward question about assimilating transgenders into society that we've avoided up to this juncture.
I think that is the point we are at now. Just look at the recent "winners" in Connecticut. As far as I know (and I may be wrong on this point), but basically the two transsexuals who won were not on hormone replacement therapy as of yet, so basically we have two physiological boys with long hair wearing feminine track attire. Their winning is entirely predictable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Danger
The transsexuals in question need to realize that this is not fair to the genetic girls, and be mature enough to compete with the boys or sit out competitive sports. Sometimes there are no options that will be beneficial for all concerned, and society has to choose the least bad option.
Too many more of these type of situations and there will be a backlash against the transsexual community in general, and transsexual rights will start contracting. This is something else that perhaps is not fair, but it will be predictable.
All states vary on their stance of what requirements are needed for transgender women to play against females. I believe the only states that allow no treatment at all is only applied to highschool sports. I think all states require at least hormone therapy in professional sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by mildcigar_2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by mildcigar_2001
You seem to be very determined to blame any reversal of minority rights on the minorities themselves, rather than the people actually instigating the reversal - eg the religious fundamentalists who are one of Trump's principal support bases. You made similar comments in other threads about Trump Administration measures on transsexual rights, but not a word of criticism of the Administration. Could it be that your real agenda is to use this as just another opportunity for liberal-bashing?Quote:
Originally Posted by mildcigar_2001