BBC Reported that Asad family have already been sending vast amounts of capital out of the country and that offers of a home in Russia have been made should they "choose" to leave.
Printable View
BBC Reported that Asad family have already been sending vast amounts of capital out of the country and that offers of a home in Russia have been made should they "choose" to leave.
Spasiba, Prospero, I hadn't heard that. Can get cold in Syria in the winter, but it doesn't compare to winter in Siberia...guess the ony beach holiday they are going to get will be in Azerbaijan...but let's face it, he can not have been ignorant of what his father had done in Syria, he had the option of refusal when he was asked to go front of house, he has been a major flop and into the bargain has compromised his own and his family's safety. Had he taken greater interest in politics he might have done the right thing.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-russia-send...170359102.html
US: Russia sending Syria attack helicopters
http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/oXh...png_162613.pngBy BRADLEY KLAPPER | Associated Press – 33 mins ago
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration said Tuesday that Russia is sending attack helicopters to Syrian President Bashar Assad's regime and warned that the Arab country's 15-month conflict could become even deadlier.
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the U.S. was "concerned about the latest information we have that there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria."
She said the shipment "will escalate the conflict quite dramatically."
Clinton's comments at a public appearance with Israeli President Shimon Peres augured poorly for a peaceful solution to Syria's conflict. Officials from around the world are warning that the violence risks becoming an all-out civil war, with Middle East power brokers from Iran to Turkey possibly being drawn into the fighting.
Diplomatic hopes have rested on Washington and Moscow agreeing on a transition plan that would end the 40-year Assad regime.
But Moscow has consistently rejected the use of outside forces to end the conflict or any international plan to force regime change in Damascus. Despite withering criticism from the West, it insists that any arms it supplies to Syria are not being used to quell anti-government dissent.
With diplomacy at a standstill, the reported shipment of helicopters suggests a dangerous new turn for Syria after more than a year of harsh government crackdowns on mainly peaceful protests and the emergence of an increasingly organized armed insurgency.
There was no immediate reaction from the Russian Foreign Ministry.
Russia and Syria have a longstanding military relationship and Syria hosts Russia's only naval base on the Mediterranean Sea. But in light of the brutal violence, the U.S. has repeatedly demanded that any further deliveries of weaponry be halted. Russian military support in the form of materiel as advanced as attack helicopters would deal a serious blow to efforts to starve the Syrian army of supplies.
Some 13,000 people have died, according to opposition groups, but the U.S. and its allies have been hoping that sanctions on Assad's government and its increased isolation would make it increasingly difficult to carry out military campaigns.
Asked why the Pentagon isn't blocking Russian weapons shipments to Syria, Defense Department officials noted that the administration hasn't declared an arms embargo. Navy Capt. John Kirby, a Pentagon spokesman, accepted the argument that Moscow's resupplying of helicopters enables the regime to kill its own people, but said the key issue is how the Syrians use the materiel.
"Let's not let the Assad regime off the hook here," he told reporters. "The focus really needs to be more on what the Assad regime is doing to its own people, than the cabinets and the closets to which they turn to pull stuff out. It's really about what they're doing with what they've got in their hands."
In recent days, the State Department has decried what it calls "horrific new tactics" by Syrian forces, including helicopters attacks on civilians.
Spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said Clinton's comments referred specifically to new helicopters that were being sent to Syria, and not already existing Russian-made or Soviet-made supplies being used by Assad's government.
"We have been pushing the Russians for months to break their military ties with the Syrian regime and they haven't done it," she told reporters in Washington. "Instead, they keep reassuring all of us that what they are sending militarily to Syria can't be used against civilians.
"But what are we seeing?" Nuland asked. "We are seeing the Syrian government using helicopters to fire on their own people from the air. So our question remains: How can the Russians conscience their continued military sales to Syria?"
Clinton, as well, warned about a massing of Syrian forces near Aleppo over the last two days, saying such a deployment could be a "red line" for Syria's northern neighbor Turkey "in terms of their strategic and national interests."
"We are watching this very carefully," she said.
___
Associated Press writer Matthew Lee and Lolita C. Baldor in Washington and James Heintz in Moscow contributed to this report.
http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/_V...70670033c4.jpg
Most States jump on board when selling weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino Velvet
When there's a profit to be made, well, making money trumps human rights. It's the way of the world:
US Weapons Sold To Human Rights Violators/Undemocratic Nations:
http://www.asiantribune.com/news/200...cratic-nations
Canadian Military Sales to Israel:
Canadian Military Sales to Israel - YouTube
With the death of Assad's brother-in-law and the others, what next?
http://news.yahoo.com/first-word-syr...40.html?_esi=1
First word from Syria's Assad emerges after attack
http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/oXh...png_162613.pngBy BEN HUBBARD | Associated Press – 10 mins ago
BEIRUT (AP) — Bashar Assad attended the swearing-in of his new defense minister Thursday, Syrian state TV said, the first word of the president since an audacious rebel attack the day before struck at the heart of his regime and killed three senior officials.
Government forces struck back against rebels with attack helicopters and shelling in a fifth straight day of clashes in Damascus. The inability of the military to control the clashes in the capital against lightly armed rebel forces and the deadly bombing of a high-level security meeting a day earlier made Assad's hold on power look increasingly tenuous.
The whereabouts of Assad, his wife and their three young children have been a mystery since the attack that killed his brother-in-law and his defense minister. Assad does not appear in public frequently, and his absence was notable following such a serious blow his inner circle.
The state TV announcement appeared aimed at sending the message that Assad is alive, well and still firmly in charge. It said Assad wished the new defense minister good luck but it did not say where the swearing-in took place. Nor did it show any photos or video of the ceremony, as it usually would.
Thousands of Syrians streamed across the Syrian border into Lebanon, fleeing as fighting in the capital entered its fifth straight day, witnesses said. Residents near the Masnaa crossing point — about 25 miles (40 kilometers) from Damascus — said hundreds of private cars as well as taxis and buses were ferrying people across.
Wednesday's rebel bomb attack struck the harshest blow yet to Assad's regime. The White House said it showed Assad was "losing control" of Syria.
Syrian TV confirmed the deaths of Defense Minister Dawoud Rajha, 65, a former army general and the most senior government official to be killed in the rebels' battle to oust Assad; Gen. Assef Shawkat, 62, the deputy defense minister who is married to Assad's elder sister, Bushra, and is one of the most feared figures in the inner circle; and Hassan Turkmani, 77, a former defense minister who died of his wounds in the hospital.
Also wounded were Interior Minister Mohammed Shaar and Maj. Gen. Hisham Ikhtiar, who heads the National Security Department. State TV said both were in stable condition.
Rebels claimed responsibility, saying they targeted the room where the top government security officials in charge of crushing the revolt were meeting.
Maj. Gen. Robert Mood, the Norwegian head of nearly 300 unarmed U.N. observers in Syria, condemned the violence and encouraged a diplomatic solution, which appears increasingly out of reach.
"It pains me to say, but we are not on the track for peace in Syria," Mood said in Damascus.
Hours later, China and Russia vetoed a new U.N. Security Council resolution on Syria's crisis — reflecting divisions between them and the West on who is responsible for Syria's crisis and how to stop it.
The resolution would have imposed non-military sanctions against Assad's government if it didn't withdraw troops and heavy weapons from populated areas within 10 days. It was tied to Chapter 7 of the U.N. Charter, which could eventually allow the use of force to end the conflict.
Russia and China have long opposed any moves that put the blame exclusively on Damascus or could pave the way for foreign military intervention in Syria.
The 11-2 vote, with two abstentions, leaves in limbo the future of the 300-person U.N. monitoring team in Syria, whose mandate expires Friday.
The latest fighting in Damascus, government forces fired heavy machine guns and mortars in battles with rebels in a number of neighborhoods in the capital, the Britain-based activist group Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.
Adding to the confusion, Syria's state-run TV warned citizens that gunmen were disguising themselves in military uniforms to carry out attacks.
"Gunmen are wearing Republican Guard uniforms in the neighborhoods of Tadamon, Midan, Qaa and Nahr Aisha, proving that they are planning attacks and crimes," SANA said.
Many residents were fleeing Damascus' Mezzeh neighborhood after troops surrounded it and posted snipers on rooftops while exchanging gunfire with opposition forces.
The Observatory, which relies on a network of activists inside Syria, said rebels damaged one helicopter and disabled three military vehicles.
Rebels fired rocket-propelled grenades at a police station in the Jdeidet Artouz area, killing at least five officers, the group said.
Activist claims could not be independently verified. The Syrian government bars most media from working independently in the country.
The unarmed observers were authorized for 90 days to monitor a cease-fire and implementation of Kofi Annan's six-point peace plan, but the truce never took hold and the monitors have found themselves largely locked down because of the persistent violence.
Mood said the observers "will become relevant when the political process takes off."
Syria's 16-month crisis began with protests inspired by the Arab Spring wave of revolutions, but it has evolved into a civil war, with rebels fighting to topple Assad.
Activists say more than 17,000 people have been killed since the uprising began in March 2011, most of them civilians. The Syrian government says more than 4,000 security officers have been killed. It does not given numbers of civilian dead.
___
Associated Press writers Edith M. Lederer and John Heilprin contributed reporting from the United Nations.
I am not sure if the bombing in Damascus marks a tipping point and that from here on in Syria is in a state of civil war; I think that right now the Russians are the key to what they would call 'containment', with the hope that more diplomacy and dialogue will draw back from violence.
There is some evidence that the military are not in total control, rebels have been seen manning roadblocks in the suburbs of Damascus but it isn't clear if these were 24-hour barricades or shows of bravado -certainly right now the opposition doesn't have the firepower or manpower to take on the army.
It is conceivable that the bombings in Damascus were an inside job, a Russian-backed attempt to remove the Asad family from the state and replace it with a congenial military government as happened in Egypt between the removal of Mubarak and the elections this year. Russia a) wants to protect its only reliable ally in the Middle East and the naval facility at Tartous; and b) stick one to the USA and its allies who want to force change on Syria regardless of the consequences. Moreover, the Russians are in conflict with Iran who are backing Asad which is another reason to get rid of the family's hold on power.
Complicating this is the wider conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and the deterioration of the current government in Israel which has all but collapsed following Kadima's removal of support for Netanyahu -thus, containment now is a response to the fear that an unwinnable war is breaking out in Syria which will drag in various factions in Syria itself, and involve interested parties in Iraq, Jordan, Turkey, Lebanon and Israel -throw in all of the sectarian issues you can think of and as one might say in exasperation: sort that lot out! Unfortunately, the comparison with the civil war in Lebanon may be apt; 100,00+ dead, sectarian parties aided and abetted by all-comers in the region and outside it, and ultimately no structural change to the politics.
This paper from Brandeis offers a balanced view of the options, suggesting diplomacy is still the key one:
http://www.brandeis.edu/crown/public.../meb/MEB64.pdf
The Council on Foreign Relations offers these profiles of who matters in the Syrian regime, including two of the people who were killed in the bombing:
http://www.cfr.org/syria/syrias-leaders/p9085
Finally a brief but interesting assessment from the Irish Times yesterday
http://campus.ie/news/national-news/...ol-in-syria-us
Nice post. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavros
While many eyes have been fixed on the Olympic Games in London, the situation in Syria has become precarious to say the least. The only existing vehicle for a negotiated settlement, the Annan Plan has ended, while the battle for Aleppo has raged with no conclusion so far. The defection of the Prime Minister Riad al-Hijab has been seen as a further weakening of a regime but not a body blow as Hijab was not a crucial member of the ruling elite. He is from the Hauran on the border with Jordan in the South, but has decamped to Qatar (no surprise there).
The current dangers are posed by the increasing support that Saudi Arabia and Qatar are providing for the 'mainstream' Sunni rebels, aided surreptitiously it is claimed by the USA who one assumes also have 'special forces' in the country; while Iran is using the kidnapping of 'Pilgrims' -some say they are Republican Guards who were sent to advise the Alawite 'Shabiha' militia- to offer its support for Asad and threaten the Americans who they think are pulling all the strings. The Salafi extremists based in the north-east at Deir at-Zor have been joined by foreign Jihadis, usually grouped under the 'al-Qaeda' moniker but its hard to know for sure who is organsing them, but their presence is causing problems because they are not welcome in Syria. I am not sure what the Russians are doing, perhaps since the end of the Annan Plan they have been re-considering their position.
If the Russians believe they can make a difference, the removal of Asad and his replacement as a 'unifying' Prime Minister with an ally of Riad Hijab, the much-respected former Foreign Minister Farouk al-Shara'a, backed by a re-structured military could be an option. The army and the air force appear to have held together in spite of some defections, not enough to weaken them fatally, although there are reports that the military is low on supplies.
If 'Egyptian Rules' are followed, the theory goes, the Army would lose its Alawite elite, gain a Sunni elite, and not lose their links to the economy; the Asad family would leave the country, presumably for either Iran or Russia; a negotiated settlement with the various factions among the rebels would lead to a transitional government pending elections, and the Russians as the prime movers would retain their status as best friend and keep their naval base in Tartous. If the Russians believe this might work, it might be better to bring the US in on the deal to make it look more diplomatically balanced, but as this is hypothetical I guess I am a dreamer on this one.
Against this, however, the King of Jordan has claimed that Asad might abandon Damascus, and try and revive the Alawite State based in Latakia and Tartous on the coast that the French created when they took on the Mandate in 1921. The French initially divided the country into five separate states when they took control by force: if history returns to this bleak scenario (and there are Syrians who think Lebanon is just one part of Syria and should not be a separate state), Syria could implodes into sectarian enclaves, with the Kurds in the north posing a major problem for Turkey which, in addition to its attempt to deal with refugees fears a deepening militarisation of a sensitive area which impacts on Turkey itself.
Although it has not been part of politics for a long time, the Ottoman Sanjak of Alexandretta (geographically the envrions of contemporary Iskenderun) which Turkey annexed in 1938 is still theoreticallly claimed to be part of Syria. On paper the opportunity for mischief-making and decades of civil war should not be ruled out. For that matter, Ibn Saud in 1925, the last time his warrior 'Brothers' (the famed Ikhwan) invaded TransJordan, he laid claim to the whole of the Arab Middle East including what is now Israel...one wonders what ambitions the Saudis really have these days.
Is it too late for the Saudis and Qatar on one side, and Iran and Russia on the other to draw back, de-escalate and back a major US/Russian push for negotiations that would end the Asad era? I just can't see these people at the moment doing so, but what I can't figure out is what these outsiders think the end-game looks like in Syria. Yes, chronic divisions amongst Syrian Muslims, and dangerous tensions with the non-Muslim and secular communities won't make any post-Asad transition smoother, but an Egyptian-style solution for the short-to-medium term looks better than the alternative, which is civil war. Surely someone in the Obama administration must see this unfolding? I think the operative word is Help!
If anyone else has views on this please express them, I sometimes think I am deluded to think that the players in this dirty game have had enough and want to end it with something approaching a more peaceful solution.
Thanks for the update, Stavros. Very thorough covering all the bases.
i am syrian, u people here have no idea what u r talking about! it is amazing how well the fucking media in the US brainwashes everyone there. it sickens me to read that the country which is funding the terrorists beheading us and raping our children and this coming right after they bombed fallujah with enough white phosphor to cause 15% of newborns to come with all kinds of weird deformations like having extra legs and arms and cancer.
u should know that the majority of syrians are more than happy to die for our country and specifically for our leader president bashar al assad, and that we fully back what our amazing army is doing to combat the hateful militias backed specifically by uncle sam and of course the saudis and the rest of the gulf scum, i also assure everyone that we have more than enough missiles set aside to turn the USA's precious gulf to hell. how idiotic is it to think that the zionism, iperialism, gulf wahabis, and of course satan itself which is the turks all want what's good for syria. yes the saudis are such a good example of liberty, whipping women for trying on nail polish is exactly what we need to spread around the world.
syria is like no other place in the world, damascus is the oldest continuously inhibited city in the world, we are not going to be defeated by scum that hardly have any place in history.
the USA can continue to send via turkey all the suicide bombers to bomb children and then the next day bomb the funeral of these children it wants, it will not make any difference.
u people can continue jerking off while watching CNN and enjoy the enhanced doses of brainwashing. i wonder if the iraqis with their modest capabilities managed to kill that many foreign invading soldiers and caused tons more to commit suicide, how many will syria harvest. i was friends with many americans here including ones in the UNDOF and other UN missions, i can confidently say that it is better for them to find other jobs that enlisting in the army for 4 years or whatever. they have no motive to die for, they r lost confused disparate children.
right, a 64 year old visitor from iran is now republican guard members! very believable especially when u show an entry permit claiming it is proof that he is in fact a republican guard, that sure adds a lot of credibility.
i am sure CNN played this like a million times because it sure wants everyone to know what happens everywhere in teh world:
Evidence of Media Complicity With Terrorists Slitting Throats in Syria - YouTube
i am sure CNN also daily shows u how the saudi forces chase protestors with cars and run them over. sure the saudis are very humane and that is why they r best friends with the US, only the syrians are evil, killing someone firing RPG-7 shells are a monetary is surely not justifiable!! pissing on dead afghan farmers after killing them like the US soldiers do is the right thing ethically and morally, yes the US should rule the world with its compassion and humanity.
So Bishr,
Are you saying there would be no Free Syrian Army without foreign assistance? You also do not think Assad is a dictator who has engaged in inhumane excesses in fighting the rebels? I read that some soldiers in Assad's army were killed for not shooting unarmed demonstrators. I read this on Al Jazeera. I am not saying you are wrong, but surely there must be some resistance to Assad even without the undue influence of zionism, imperialism, gulf wahabbism, and satan.
Awesome! Our very own sock puppet.
Hey bishr! ابحث عن سقوط أسعد
what i am saying is that there is no such thing as the free syrian shit, it is made up of many many separate groups of the scum of society, mainly smugglers, wanted criminals, drug dealers and their followers, and of course the majority are brainwashed jihadists who somehow got convinced that killing people is what god wants and is what islam wants. all of these were happily funded by the wonderful people at saudi arabia and qatar to bring democracy to syria, they don't even have a parliament in qatar and in saudi arabia, the biggest thing the city council can decide for example is which road to give a fresh coat of tarmac.Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
of course the rebels wouldn't have been able to do this much damage without foreign aid! for god sakes most of them can't read!!! how would they exist in the first place if turkey and lebanon wasn't providing territories and training camps for them??? do u think the syrian army would have let armed rebels thrive within syria for so long? do u think they r executing their attacks on vital military bases and everything related to electricity and oil without direct help from the CIA in turkey with satellite images and info on the movement of syrian troops???
what kind of fucked up so called army would want a guy like this Riad Al As3ad leading it!!! the guy is a failed desk officer who defected to turkey and has a shitty record of failing every chance to up his rank for years! jesus how does the media feed people so much crap! i mean another guy who is referred to as a doctor wahid sakr is in fact someone who didn't make it past the ninth grade and was fired from the police for stealing cars yet u see him on the news channels discussing the future of syria and carrying the message of the syrian people to the world!
u can't be more wrong about our president and this is coming from someone who gets no special benefit from what the media calls the syrian regime at all other than being an average syrian citizen, and i am not from the same religious sect he is. he is a symbol and the only hope for us to move forward.
as for the peaceful protestors u r talking about that the army is forcing soldiers to kill, i want to tell u that there was not a single day here of peaceful protests since it started, and if the army wanted to kill these protestors (which i completely disagree that they should be called that), would it ask ordinary soldiers to do that and risk such exposure especially since syria is made up of so many sects and groups that all have to serve in the military??? wasn't it obvious that these soldiers might refuse and then they would have to kill him? couldn't they use special forces to take out these protestors?? such a silly hypothesis. it is no secret that we have brutal special forces! it is a matter of pride that they r there to do their work when duty calls, read about the so called darya massacre, the stupid rebels were having fun throwing mortar shells at a nearby military airport and running wild in darya, and after that within 48 hours 440 of them were shot dead at close range combat, so the fact is that when the syrian army takes it decision to act, it does so with massive impact and without worrying about some soldier refusing to follow orders.
please don't even mention qatar's aljazeera, it is the most blood thirsty channel in the world, it is just sickening how far they go, but qatar will learn its lesson soon, it is not even a country, it is a petrol and gas station with an american military base occupying almost half its land!!! where is aljazeera's coverage of what is happening in bahrain??? where is it revealing reports about the saudi forces that occupied bahrain to control the protests there? why doesn't it cry over the people being shot directly in the eyes with rubber bullets there? what about the prisoners there that lost their speech ability from constant execution? where are the reports on what all the wahabi fuckers call the hula conquest which aljazeera calls the hula massacre, why doesn't aljazeera show its viewers that countless saudis and many other enemies were thrilled that their militias managed to slay so many children there!!! did aljazeera say that they were mostly relatives of a syrian parliament member that the militias warned not to participate in the parliament? how come when covering protests syria they say there were thousands in a protest when it is in fact made up of only tens of people including many children getting slapped on the face when failing to raise the signs high enough??? haven't u seen any of these on youtube??? how come when over 2 million people gather in a march to support our country aljazeera calls them a few thousand government employees forced to participate to save their jobs????
if our president was a dictator spewing his hate on this resistance u talk about, wouldn't he know better than to commit a massacre specifically every time there is a meeting in the security council??? is he deliberately trying to embarrass russia and china??? speaking of the security council reminds me of that whore susan rice who is disgusted by the 3 vetos from russia and china!!! isn't the bitch disgusted from the over 60 vetos that the USA made to protect israel's right to bomb and starve the Palestinians and take down their houses and unleash its hate on everything belonging to them especially the countless olive trees they used bulldozers to kill????
doesn't anyone follow what for example Webster Tarpley reports from syria? Thierry Meyssan also giving first hand accounts of what is happening? Robert Fisk as well? George Galloway??????
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...s-8073717.html
Bishr, you should probably read through the posts in this thread, the opinions expressed are not extreme for the most part, and some of us are more informed on Syria than you think is the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishr
You know that the Muslim Brotherhood in Syria was founded in the 1930s and that it split in the 1960s, much as Syrian politics has been characterised by division for the last 100 years, even though early examples of Arab Nationalism surfaced as early as the 1870s in the journal al-Jinan and formed part of the growing opposition to Ottoman rule. To describe either the leadership or the members of the Syrian opposition as the scum of society, mainly smugglers, wanted criminals, drug dealers and their followers is either ignorance or a childish insult.
I don't carry a torch for the Brotherhood or any other opposition group, but then I am not Syrian anyway -but they have existed long enough, and represent enough people in Syria to be accepted as one of the groups who must expect to win seats in an election in a democratic election -as indeed they did in the 1960s- and be given an input into the formation of a new Syiran government. Whether or not the Islamic opposition can find any unity among themselves I doubt, and it is clear that this a fundamental weakness that has enabled the Asad government to continue.
Indeed, bitter divisions have characterised Syrian politics since 1920 and you only need to look at the fate of the Ba'ath Party to understand how pervasive this lack of unity has been, not least when Hafez al-Asad sentenced Michel Aflaq to death in 1971 -for what? Violence has played a key role in the creation of a military capitalist state in Syria, what Hafez al-Asad did, in addition to infiltrating the army into every part of the economy, was to create networks of patronage which benefited many Syrians, yet Syria, which was one of the richest, and also politically liberal regions in the Middle East in 1900, is now one of the poorest, badly organised, politically and violently divided, and in spite of Hafez al-Asad's posturing, totally incapable of regaining al-Jawlan from Israel, not by negotiation, not by force. A stability of terror can only last so long, and the longer it goes on, the less likely it is going to end in a peaceful transition from the current political system to a new one.
Bashar al-Asad did not want to go into politics, but because he came from outside it, it was assumed he would in fact be able to reform Syria. Ten years later and he has shown himself out of touch, inept, and as willing to condone violence as his father, even if Bashar himself is not in control of the military. Indeed, as I said in another post, he could die tonight and the military would continue as it is. But he is no innocent, he knew what his father had done to stay in power, and by using the army to attack its own population, Bashar has sealed his warrant -if not death, then exile in Russia, where his wife is and, incidentally, not a few wealthy Syrians.
When you cite Robert Fisk, do you not also cite a journalist who has spent the last 30 odd years attacking Hafez al-Assad? From the aggressive attempt to force Lebanon into a de facto province of Syria throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the shabby attacks on Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon in the 1980s that Asad insisted on just to spite Arafat, to the savage attacks on Hama in 1982; not to mention the various armed groups and murderers -PFLP-GC, Carlos 'the Jackal', Alois Brunner to name but a few who all had their time in Damascus, at your expense, if indeed you are Syrian.
You can admit that Syria is in the process of change, or you can fight against it. You have not actually produced a coherent analysis of the situation, which is a pity because there isn't enough of it. We are aware on this thread of the support being given to all sides in this conflict, some of us hope that in the near future Bashar al-Assad will do the right thing, and begin a process of change that will remove the strait-jacket that has prevented Syria from expressing itself for the past 42 years. It would be better for you to join that debate than dismiss your fellow countrymen as idiots. We would also welcome a serious debate on the issue in this forum.
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-rebuffs...152652475.html
Russia rebuffs Clinton on Syria, Iran penalties
By MATTHEW LEE | Associated Press – 4 hrs ago
VLADIVOSTOK, Russia (AP) — Russia on Saturday soundly rejected U.S. calls for increased pressure on Syrian President Bashar Assad to relinquish power. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton tried to prod Moscow into supporting U.N. action to end the crisis in Syria and she expressed hope that Congress would repeal Cold War-era trade restrictions on Russia.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, after meeting Clinton on the sidelines of a meeting of Pacific Rim leaders, told reporters that Moscow is opposed to U.S.-backed penalties against the Assad government, in addition to new ones against Iran over its nuclear program, because they harm Russian commercial interests.
"Our American partners have a prevailing tendency to threaten and increase pressure, adopt ever more sanctions against Syria and against Iran," Lavrov said. "Russia is fundamentally against this, since for resolving problems you have to engage the countries you are having issues with and not isolate them."
"Unilateral U.S. sanctions against Syria and Iran increasingly take on an extraterritorial character, directly affecting the interests of Russian business, in particular banks," he said. "We clearly stated that this was unacceptable, and they listened to us. What the result will be, I don't know."
Clinton, who also met with Russian President Vladimir Putin during the annual Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum summit in Vladivostok, had urged Moscow to reconsider its opposition to the penalties, particularly against Syria in order to convince Assad that he should agree to a political transition, according to a senior U.S. official.
Clinton told her Russian counterpart that the Security Council needed to do more to send "a strong message" to Assad, given the escalating level of violence in Syria, said the official, who was present during the meeting. Clinton made clear to Lavrov that the Security Council risks "abrogating its responsibility" if it fails to act.
The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the conversation was private.
Russia and China have blocked three Security Council resolutions that would have punished Syria if the Assad government did not accept a negotiated political transition. Clinton said in Beijing this past week that the U.S. was "disappointed" by the vetoes.
She had earlier called the actions "appalling" and said they put Russia and China on the "wrong side of history." That assertion was rejected by Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi at a news conference with Clinton on Wednesday, when Yang said history would prove China's position to be correct.
On Saturday, Lavrov said Russia's opposition to penalizing Syria was based on the premise that "they don't achieve anything."
The question of sanctions against Syria and Iran will be a main topic of conversation among officials later this month at the U.N. General Assembly, and the U.S. official said Clinton had discussed both with Putin during dinner in Vladivostok.
Clinton, who's in Russia's Far East representing President Barack Obama at the APEC summit, also discussed with Putin topics including wildlife conservation, the upcoming winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia, and bilateral trade and investment, the official said.
Despite Russia's refusal to join the U.S. and its allies in seeking more pressure against Syria and Iran, Clinton told business leaders at the APEC meeting that the Obama administration wants Congress to repeal a 1974 law that denies Russia normal trade relations with the U.S because of Soviet-era laws restricting the emigration of Jews.
Now that Russia has joined the World Trade Organization, Clinton said the Obama administration is "working closely" with lawmakers on that issue and hopes that "Congress will pass on this important piece of legislation this month."
At the same time, Washington is looking for Russia to play a greater role in the Asia-Pacific region as the U.S. tries to quell growing maritime tensions.
Territorial disputes, including between U.S. allies Japan and South Korea, sparked by nationalist rhetoric have fueled fears of conflict.
Clinton has spent the last week in the region urging peaceful resolutions to competing territorial claims between China and its smaller neighbors in the South China Sea. The U.S. wants to see the Association of Southeast Asian Nations and China establish quickly a code of conduct for the area to be followed by a mechanism to resolve the conflicts peacefully without intimidation, coercion or clashes.
She began Saturday by signing an agreement with Lavrov that will enhance U.S.-Russia scientific cooperation in the Antarctic, as well as link national parks on either side of the Bering Strait.
http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/An...7067001aee.jpg
Associated Press/Mikhail Metzel,Pool - Russian President Vladimir Putin, left, meets U.S. Secretary of State
Hillary Rodham Clinton on her arrival at the APEC summit in Vladivostok, Russia, Saturday, Sept. 8, 2012.
(AP Photo/Mikhail Metzel,Pool)
the friendly rebels a few hours ago gave aleppo a fair well gift before the syrian army completely removes them from it, they detonated a massive bomb in a building block containing three hospitals and a school-turned-refugee-shelter. cunt face clinton should do more to help them! they r so nice.
http://youtu.be/lTxLGOUIElw
it just baffles me that cunt face clinton would say that americans must be shocked that their ambassador would be killed like that in the exact city the helped rebel against and defeat the late libyan leader mouamar al ghaddafi!!! is she kidding me??? isn't killing 150,000 libyans directly and indirectly but mostly directly with air strikes reason enough??? isn't destroying the country's infrastructure reason enough??? isn't giving a huge percentage of the proceeds from the libyan oil to foreign companies reason enough??? isn't bringing to power people who think beheading is the best way to run a country reason enough???
she talks so affectionately about the families of the killed americans and their children! what about the bombing of al ghaddafi's sons??? what about the bombing of al ghaddafi's grandsons???
how can anyone who so lovingly nurtured the islamic extremists be shocked that they would turn on him/her??? such behavior was made the most basic and instinctive one in them!
BBC News HD - Syrian rebels try to use prisoner for suicide bombing 2012 - YouTube
the BBC commentary on the video is far worse than the video itself! they r taking such a sickening crime so casually! watching it felt almost like watching "cannibal holocaust" again!
You need to acquaint yourself with a few facts, Bishr.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishr
1) The attack on the US Embassy Consulate in Bengazi was planned as a retaliation for the murder of Yahya al-Libi, allegedly second-in-command in al-Qaeda, who was killed in a drone attack in Pakistan on June 4th.
2) Muammar al-Qadhafi was not the legitimate leader of Libya, he was not elected to the post, but seized it by force in 1969. In the 40-odd years that followed, Qadhafi systematically looted the country's oil revenues, waged war against anyone who opposed his rule whether they were western-style democrats or Islamic conservatives; he spent millions of $$ and sent thousands of Libyan soldiers to their deaths in his ridiculous attempt to expand into Chad; he was intimately involved in the supply of arms and ammunition to the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland; he gave sanctuary to mass murderers like Abu Nidal, Carlos 'the Jackal'; it was with Qadhafi's approval that an as-yet unidentified gunman shot dead a British policewoman, Yvonne Fletcher when opening fire on a legtimate demonstration in London against Qadhafi's rule in Libya; and Qadhafi repeatedly insulted the Arab people and conspired to undermine their right to choose their own governments.
3) The destruction to Libya's infrastructure was minimal, and not just because there isn't much to destroy outside the highways, the man-made river, and the oil installations, most of which were untouched.
4) It was because of Qadhafi's reckless political activities that Libya was ostracised by the international system and unable to gain access to the technology that will unlock value in the Libyan oil industry, this was the reason why Qadhafi was prepared to do anthing and say anything to overhaul the petroleum industry in Libya -so it was your hero Qadhafi who signed the contracts with BP, with Shell, and the others. Libya needs a modernised petroleum industry, there is nothing wrong with inviting the latest technology and capital into the country; if in the future the Libyan government wants to nationalise its oil industry again, that is its right.
What you need to do is mount a defence, if you can, of Muammar al-Qadhafi, of Hafiz al-Asad and his son Bashir. Best of luck!
ps Your abusive remarks about Hillary Clinton are unworthy of anyone who posts in HungAngels.
Bishr - please post controversial and provocative views by all means, but refrain from the deeply abusive remarks made about Mrs Clinton. Otherwise all your posts will be deleted.
It shouldn't matter that I don't accept your premises. In morality, parties can be blamed just as easily for inaction as for action. But let's say we accept what you have said about U.S foreign policy. Does that make the murder of an ambassador justified? The murderers blamed an offensive film about the Prophet Mohammad. But why does it matter if that was the motivation or what you have claimed is the motivation?Quote:
Originally Posted by bishr
If you wonder why there is so much killing and so much death it is because people find it so easy to justify murdering innocents. So you disagree with U.S policy. So you think Hillary Clinton is a "cuntface" and don't respect women enough generally to avoid using such terms. Is there really a reason to storm an embassy and murder a man?
What exactly was this man's culpability that he deserved death?
This is an intelligent exchange of view points but I'm thinking bishr's remarks violate our collective common decency.
I agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by flabbybody
Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
please people wake up, we r not just hateful blind enraged morons and i like i already said, i so totally oppose the crazy people that killed him but it is the USA that put them in power by obliterating the libyan army with cowardly airstrikes!
as for why i celebrated the death of the embassador, all i can say is that a picture is worth 1000000000000000 words! look at this photo! look how he was giving the thumbs up over the dead body of a glorified leader for countless millions! look how he is happy about leader al ghaddafi got murdered after being violated with a steel rebar in his rectum??? can u not see the irony??????? is it that hard to understand that when someone so profoundly harms u, u become angry and want to return the favor??????? if somebody acts like that over your father's dead body and smiles and gives the thumbs up, would u be ok with that???
anyway the ones who killed him are not at all pro-ghaddafi, they r the crazy extremists doing their thing just because.
it is america's extremely cruel foreign policy that made america such a hated nation. it is truly a shame, i have many good american friends that i have been friends with for over a decade.
Bishr,
but by your logic then you should also be killed because you are celebrating his death. There is nothing different about what you and he did except that he was celebrating the death of someone with much more blood on his hands. But again, nobody should be killed for being offensive, even in a grossly indecent way. Otherwise, where does that leave you? The killers also gave a different justification for their actions than you do. This is relevant because what you are providing is a post-hoc justification for his death that does not necessarily shed light on the motives of his killers.
But again, of course the government and their supporters would be angry with us for supporting the rebels. Whether doing so actually increases the death toll or a humanitarian crisis depends on the balance of power. In cases where the rebels have no chance whatsoever, aiding them prolongs their misery and increases the death toll.
1- i don't really think much about the reason why he was killed, all i was saying is that it is by no means a surprise! and again what u r saying about it being in retaliation for killing someone in alqaida is in line with what i was saying, the USA creates alqaida and then it bites than hand that feeds it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stavros
2- u call bringing someone to power who begged Bernard-Henri Lévy to help him destroy his country and kill 150,000 citizens making things right??? is robbing most of the oil proceeds called modernizing now??? do u know that in tripoli the electricity goes out now for over 8 hours a day???????? do u know that before all this crap, the electricity was free for non commercial use????? do u know that al ghaddafi is seen as a leader by millions of people not just libyans?? and even if he is a dictator, who made NATO/USA god and gave them the right to do this to another country?????? is your information about the damage made to libya coming from CNN????
3- why should the people of a sovereign country have to mount a defense to live in peace?? why don't u mount a defense for destroying iraq and killing 1.5 million people there and dumping countless radio active bombs making the children of falluja all deformed and sick with cancer????? who is the bloody killer, is it our president doctor Bashar Hafez Al Assad or George W. Bush???
how would your country deal with armed rebels beheading people??? would u thank them and hand them the country and the fate of over 23 million syrians???? or would u step up to the task and do what's needed to prevent a country for being sent back to the middle ages???????????
Was Qaddafi your father? I've heard of children divorcing or disowning their parents because they've done unconscionable things. It's of course too late now, but that would be a reasonable option if your father was a murderous thug. Again, I can understand you being emotional about that if you are a close blood relative of Qaddafi, and either way it's a grossly indecent thing he did. Not worthy of being killed, not his killer's motive, and not worthy of celebrating his murder either.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishr
If you're related to Qaddafi you don't have to tell people you know. I have an uncle that we're all a bit embarrassed about as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
like i told u, i don't at all like the ones who killed him! and the difference between me and him is that i didn't travel thousands of miles to another country that my army bombed and then took a photo like that with the leader of that country! feeling justice was served is something i felt unwillingly, it is not a decision i made to feel happy about it, can u understand what i mean, i am having trouble finding the right word, my english isn't that good. anyway, if it means i should be killed then so be it, most of us aren't scared of dying, the overwhelming feeling is sadness for seeing our beautiful country being destroyed.
as for the so called rebels, let me just explain something:
1- more than half of them are not syrian, the USA is helping bring them from all over the earth for jihad in syria, so many libyans, tunisians, a huge number coming from yemen now and i am sure u at least read somewhere in the news that the USA is not killing the ones there in yemen who have agreed to move their business to syria. this is not the pro-government numbers, read what every reporter who has been in syria has said including the ones i mentioned earlier in this thread or read what Jacques Bérès the surgeon who was treating the wounded members of the militias has said! just google his name!
2- the USA/saudi/qatar/egypt and most of the other countries sending hte mad jehadists are more than happy to see them die even if they don't achieve their goal. hell, saudi arabia is releasing terrorist prisoners to send them to syria! they are more than happy to get rid of them. nobody wants to shorten their misery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
i am syrian not libyan, i am not related to him. our cultures are so different, he is a symbol to millions of people who value pride and dignity! he is the leader that got italy to formally apologize for occupying and destroying libya. he is the leader that Silvio Berlusconi used to bend and kiss his hand!Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
i don't expect u to understand, we r from different worlds.
i don't have to be a blood relative to feel scorned when i see a symbol being humiliated.
I understand what you mean. I am trying not to judge you too harshly, but we need to be careful even about feeling glad when a bad person (and sometimes this is a matter of opinion) is killed. It's not something everyone agrees on.
Bin Laden was killed, Hitler shot himself, Ariel Sharon had a stroke. All bad men imo and we can argue about their degree of culpability. I was not alive for Hitler, but there's nothing about his death that should bring anyone solace, comfort, or joy. Same goes for Bin Laden and Sharon. I know people celebrated when Bin Laden was killed, but it was a stupid and hollow celebration. Al Qaeda is a franchise now, an aspirational rather than tactical enterprise. The war with their ideology, a vicious and delusional one continues without him. Those who he killed remain dead.
Now this man did far less than any of these individuals. I think the word you're looking for is karma. You may not support what his killers did but you feel he has reaped what he sowed. People do offensive things all the time, and far worse than create mere offense. Their deaths can sometimes prevent further atrocities but otherwise provide no remedy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by broncofan
there is no remedy, no getting even steven, nope! it is a way of life now for many who were hurt.
one last thought about the ambassador, what i INITIALLY said about the incident here in this thread was not that i was happy but that i was totally baffled by the esteemed mrs. clinton talking about a sense of shock or surprise about the incident.
i know about karma! carson daly invented it during an episode of Last Call with Carson Daly! hhhhhhh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX4IW...ctr=1347817656
this is a video of the armed militias proudly explaining how they arrested and killed several army officers who are fresh graduates from the military engineering academies that were in a mini bus going either home or to attend court proceedings and report back on them (the female officer).
If you were living now in Syria and writing the same words about the Syrian foreign minister, would you still be alive to answer this question?Quote:
Originally Posted by bishr
I think both of us know the answer........
Bishr I dont understand your post. The situation in Afghanistan that nurtured al-Qaeda emerged from the transition from a monarchy to a republic in 1973-74, and the internal conflict among politicians who, frankly, did not expect to be handed power in the circumstances of the time. When the USSR intervened in 1979 it was at root an attempt to promote one faction of the 'Communist Party' and see how far it could go in extending its influece in Southern Asia. The USA was not interested in the internal politics of Afghanistan, it wanted to prevent the spread of influence of the USSR, and bleed the USSR of the funds needed to engage in the war in Afghanistan. If there was one party that was instrumental in helping al-Qaeda develop its 'base' it was Saudi Arabia, and as we know from Turki bin Faisal al-Saud they came to regret it. Saudi Arabia intervened in the war that broke out in the Yemen in 1962, supporting the Imam, while Nasser intervened on behalf of the Republicans -other than sending a lot of people to their deaths, it was not much of an achievement for either side, but was just one of many examples (the guerilla war in Dhofar being another).Quote:
Originally Posted by bishr
Current evens would not be happening if countries like Libya and Syria had not been strangled by dictatorship for 40 odd years.
There is a revolution taking place in the region whose consequences are unknown; I don't believe anyone posting on HungAngels approves of any act of violence in Syria whoever is responsible for it; but if it is a genuine revolution, then 21 months in the life of the Arab Spring is too soon to be making judgements; I would suggest that 10 years is a more reasonable time-frame.
Bashar al-Asad has no legtimacy, he is not elected, he would not be elected if there was an election. The army has not collapsed in spite of defections; Iran is intervening on one side, Saudi Arabia and Qatar on the other, and there is little we can do about it. For what it is worth, more people have been killed, injured and raped in the 'Democratic Reublic of the Congo' since independence in 1960, and all for diamonds and other minerals. The best we can do in these circumstances is to bear witness for those who matter most -the victims.