Embarassing

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Originally Posted by onmyknees

With all due respect, you're naive and idealistic. That's OK....in fact it's admirable. But there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that. You don't seem to understand that because you like so many others have been sanitized to what war is. Young men in combat week after week loosing brothers and narrowly escaping death themselves numerous times can't always walk the razor's edge you and the other armchair advocates would like them to.Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy.
I don't want you to misunderstand. I don't condone what the marines did. I understand it and relate to it. They should be disciplined quietly, handed their rifles back, and sent to kill more bad guys.... and the politicians should stay the fuck out of it.

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I ought to be insulted by your claim that I am 'naive and idealistic', but it suggests a stunning ignorance on your part of a long, and documented history of the politics and the laws of war -you seem to either think that the history of armed conflict is equivalent to a John Wayne or a Sylvester Stallone movie; or wish that it was. If your reasoning were to hold, the Japanese should have killed captured servicement instead of putting them in camps, just as the Allied Powers should never have bothered to imprison captured soldiers -but why stop there? The Japanese attacked the USA at Pearl Harbour -why bother to intern Japanese Americans when you could kill them all? After all, as you say there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that... and as you make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants those Japanese Americans should all have been toast.

The reality -not the ideal condition- the factual and informed -not the naive- history of armed conflict does concern the observance of rules, as well as the transgressions. You have opted for one side rather than another, in favour of violent, nihilist anarchy against international law and the values of a democratic society.

But lets look at this statement: Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy. Victory? What Victory? The only military victory the USA can claim since Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the successful invasion of Grenada in 1983, which is equivalent to the 82nd Airborne achieving a successful lock-down of Carnegie Hall (empty except for the Janitor). Waterboarding achieved nothing, something like 90% of the people interned in Guantanamo had never engaged the USA in any kind of military action, most were shopped by people in Afghanistan and Pakistan to get the money that was offered.

What depresses me is that you start from the position that you are under attack and must respond, without ever asking why? What is the purpose of armed conflict, and what does it achieve? I deplore war as an instrument of politics, because it fails to achieve the objectives which can be, and which eventually are reached by diplomacy. I am not soft on terror, I am not an armchair liberal, but a realist, someone who believes every conflict in the world can be solved with debate and diplomacy, and not through violence which creates more problems than it solves, which costs astronomical sums of money, and which ruins the lives of young people and their families.

My mother drove an ambulance during the Blitz in London; she used to fetch bodies, too often pieces of a human body from the wreckage of people's homes-she became a pacifist as a result, and I am honoured to follow in her slipstream, because Pacifism is the only courageous position that a human can take today, war has become the refuge of cowards, specifically those politicians and self-appointed 'leaders' like Osama bin Laden who neither want nor are capable of discussing their grievances, but who believe that if they want something they should just kill anyone who gets in their way to get it. In a world of so many options, why choose the one that doesn't work, that has been demonstrated time after time not to work?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I ought to be insulted by your claim that I am 'naive and idealistic', but it suggests a stunning ignorance on your part of a long, and documented history of the politics and the laws of war -you seem to either think that the history of armed conflict is equivalent to a John Wayne or a Sylvester Stallone movie; or wish that it was. If your reasoning were to hold, the Japanese should have killed captured servicement instead of putting them in camps, just as the Allied Powers should never have bothered to imprison captured soldiers -but why stop there? The Japanese attacked the USA at Pearl Harbour -why bother to intern Japanese Americans when you could kill them all? After all, as you say there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that... and as you make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants those Japanese Americans should all have been toast.

The reality -not the ideal condition- the factual and informed -not the naive- history of armed conflict does concern the observance of rules, as well as the transgressions. You have opted for one side rather than another, in favour of violent, nihilist anarchy against international law and the values of a democratic society.

But lets look at this statement: Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy. Victory? What Victory? The only military victory the USA can claim since Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the successful invasion of Grenada in 1983, which is equivalent to the 82nd Airborne achieving a successful lock-down of Carnegie Hall (empty except for the Janitor). Waterboarding achieved nothing, something like 90% of the people interned in Guantanamo had never engaged the USA in any kind of military action, most were shopped by people in Afghanistan and Pakistan to get the money that was offered.

What depresses me is that you start from the position that you are under attack and must respond, without ever asking why? What is the purpose of armed conflict, and what does it achieve? I deplore war as an instrument of politics, because it fails to achieve the objectives which can be, and which eventually are reached by diplomacy. I am not soft on terror, I am not an armchair liberal, but a realist, someone who believes every conflict in the world can be solved with debate and diplomacy, and not through violence which creates more problems than it solves, which costs astronomical sums of money, and which ruins the lives of young people and their families.

My mother drove an ambulance during the Blitz in London; she used to fetch bodies, too often pieces of a human body from the wreckage of people's homes-she became a pacifist as a result, and I am honoured to follow in her slipstream, because Pacifism is the only courageous position that a human can take today, war has become the refuge of cowards, specifically those politicians and self-appointed 'leaders' like Osama bin Laden who neither want nor are capable of discussing their grievances, but who believe that if they want something they should just kill anyone who gets in their way to get it. In a world of so many options, why choose the one that doesn't work, that has been demonstrated time after time not to work?

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The converts seem to cause the worst problem at least here in Australia and i would be more than happy to deport them to the islamic country of their choice

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

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'An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest'.

1 I am like Michael foot compared to some of the animals I work with.

2 That above statement shows your naivety, if you were in the same room as the punters who I deal with ,you would be in the shower for hours. If any of them were interested in you, you would be on your knees praying for me and my fellow ignorant scumbags to appear.

3 you still don't get the point, war is a horrible business, I work with some who were in the mob, unfortunately some of them also become punters. You send men and women into these shitholes ,ask them to cross swords with medieval throwbacks,some scars you cannot see , I guarantee you were sent over there did a tour , you wouldn't have started this topic. Do I think it is fine to urinate on corpses no I don't, in fact they should be punished for it by their officers in the field . What I object to is all the handwringing and condemnation from armchair quarter backs which to me is bollocks. And I know you are not stupid, think about why this is constantly being talked over and over in the news. There are far bigger issues, than 4 blokes who mades twats of themselves on camera.

4 where is your topic on the 200 odd US armed forces personnel cremated remains that were dumped in landfill sites, despite the families given assurances these people would be treated with the respect they deserve. Some respect .

Arnie - have you been to a warfront? I have. I have seen it close-up so I DO know what I'm talking about.

Arnie wrote: "why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

"Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women."

Arnie - your remarks are beneath contempt. Publish your full Met details and lets see what your senior officers make of your your racist, fascist rants.

Oh and ehat are YOU doing here on an internet pornography forum Arnie.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Arnie wrote: "why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

"Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women."

Arnie - your remarks are beneath contempt. Publish your full Met details and lets see what your senior officers make of your your racist, fascist rants.

Oh and ehat are YOU doing here on an internet pornography forum Arnie.

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Touched a raw nerve have I? and the only fascist on this thread at the moment is you,although it is early days yet with all the looneys that post on here .You are probably racist as well.I despise your views but I don't really give a shit to be honest you are very much a minority in this country whether you realise it or not,and your numbers are getting smaller thanks to the failures of both political parties .That is why you start to make threats and use labels because you have to hide behind it.

I suspect if you had your way people like me would be herded into the camps for 're education'.Where we would have to listen to propoganda with a rifle stuck behind the ear .

You also haven't answered my question, number 4.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Arnie - have you been to a warfront? I have. I have seen it close-up so I DO know what I'm talking about.

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No I haven't but I deal with the concequenses of politicians sending young men into harms way now and again .Land fit for heroes? bollocks. I also work with one person closely who served in northern Ireland, that is why I have the opinions I do on this topic and they are right.

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Originally Posted by arnie666

No I haven't but I deal with the concequenses of politicians sending young men into harms way now and again .Land fit for heroes? bollocks. I also work with one person closely who served in northern Ireland, that is why I have the opinions I do on this topic and they are right.

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these politicians use these young men like they were toilet paper and then shed crocodile tears when they come home in bags but mean while import the same scumbags our troops are fighting and have them abuse them if they return alive and the left backs these scumbag pieces of shit all the way and attend protests with these muslim dogs

All is forgiven because we're the civilized savages. Besides, civilized behavior & the "rules of war" are only for the defeated, & then only if the winner can't be isolated from the rest of the world long enough.

Here we go with unreasonable expectations again. I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Bloodlust & assholish behavior is not the human norm. These guys wouldn't even be marines if they weren't a couple tacos light of a combination plate to start with. Oh, is that politically incorrect? Too bad. Get over it. I don't do hero worship, & I just don't buy the bullshit that military adventurism is the reason I can speak my mind.

Is something going to happen to these particular marines? I don't know & I don't care. The only thing anybody seems to be pissed off about is that they were stupid enough to get caught. Nobody wants to know what's actually going on. Reality gets in the way of all that good whining from all sides & political bents. So much more convenient to just ignorantly claim victimhood as an excuse to be assholes.

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Originally Posted by hippifried

All is forgiven because we're the civilized savages. Besides, civilized behavior & the "rules of war" are only for the defeated, & then only if the winner can't be isolated from the rest of the world long enough.

Here we go with unreasonable expectations again. I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Bloodlust & assholish behavior is not the human norm. These guys wouldn't even be marines if they weren't a couple tacos light of a combination plate to start with. Oh, is that politically incorrect? Too bad. Get over it. I don't do hero worship, & I just don't buy the bullshit that military adventurism is the reason I can speak my mind.

Is something going to happen to these particular marines? I don't know & I don't care. The only thing anybody seems to be pissed off about is that they were stupid enough to get caught. Nobody wants to know what's actually going on. Reality gets in the way of all that good whining from all sides & political bents. So much more convenient to just ignorantly claim victimhood as an excuse to be assholes.

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these young guys were sent by our governments to kill and then they are told to be little gentlemen and when they fuck up in extra ordinary circumstances that you or me would freak out in.fuck off! you expect too much of young guys that could die at any time

I had an uncle and I have a cousin (the uncle's son) who were both U.S. Marines. I love 'em both. I won't make any judgments about the Marines in general, but those two were and are definitely short on tacos, God love 'em they're dumb.

I would not cast aspersions on the US Marines either. I am sure most of damn fine and brave young men. The ones that I met were. Which makes the deviant and stupid behaviour of a handful even more astonishing.

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Originally Posted by hippifried

All is forgiven because we're the civilized savages. Besides, civilized behavior & the "rules of war" are only for the defeated, & then only if the winner can't be isolated from the rest of the world long enough.

Here we go with unreasonable expectations again. I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Bloodlust & assholish behavior is not the human norm. These guys wouldn't even be marines if they weren't a couple tacos light of a combination plate to start with. Oh, is that politically incorrect? Too bad. Get over it. I don't do hero worship, & I just don't buy the bullshit that military adventurism is the reason I can speak my mind.

Is something going to happen to these particular marines? I don't know & I don't care. The only thing anybody seems to be pissed off about is that they were stupid enough to get caught. Nobody wants to know what's actually going on. Reality gets in the way of all that good whining from all sides & political bents. So much more convenient to just ignorantly claim victimhood as an excuse to be assholes.

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Now we know how you really feel about the United States Marines, Hippi. Not judging your opinion, just identifying and magnifying it.

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I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation.

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Back to no magnification but narrowing the field of focus.

I usually prefer the whole movie over just the trailer especially on a big screen.

You never hear them say "The popcorn of truth", instead it's always "The kernel of truth".

Great to see some folks would love to nail these boys to the wall for a small infraction and remember these terrorist were already dead.Remember the reason America is in Afganistan in the first place is because of the Twin Towers not because these muslim dogs are so innocent

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Originally Posted by trish

You never hear them say "The popcorn of truth", instead it's always "The kernel of truth".

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Kernel, Popcorn. You're making me hungry. Pass the butter and bourbon please. The movie is about to begin.

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Originally Posted by russtafa

Great to see some folks would love to nail these boys to the wall for a small infraction and remember these terrorist were already dead.Remember the reason America is in Afganistan in the first place is because of the Twin Towers not because these muslim dogs are so innocent

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You are obviously confused about the NATO campaign -the Taliban were not responsible for 9/11, al-Qaeda was. You might recall after the 'triumph' of allied bombing in late 2001 and early 2002 which ended the Taliban rule of Afghanistan and shattered al-Qaeda in Afghanistan forcing bin Laden, al_Zawahiri and others to flee, the US, the UK and their allies abandoned Afghanistan to the warlords.

The Taliban are not terrorists, they are fighting to free their country from foreign occupation -the foreign troops from the very same countries who crowed about their victory ten years ago. And when you have stopped shedding tears for all those young lads (and lasses) who have been killed or injured there, are you going to give much thought to the 30-40-50 year old officers who 'control' them? Innocents abroad? Not really. Presumably if this was 1980 and you were living in London you would be advocating the mass slaughter of 'Irish dogs' -??

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Originally Posted by russtafa

these young guys were sent by our governments to kill and then they are told to be little gentlemen and when they fuck up in extra ordinary circumstances that you or me would freak out in.fuck off! you expect too much of young guys that could die at any time

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My... You really are confused. Couldn't bother to read what's there huh? Just grabbed hold of the last 2 sentences & decided to live up to my assessment of whiners who like to prerend to be be some kind of gumbah tough guys?

They weren't "sent". We've been in Afghanistan since these guys were in grade school. They went out of their way to get into those "extraordinary circumstances" that freak you out so bad. Fuck off yourself. The whole point of my post was that I don't expect anything other than what happened. Barbaric behavior isn't just condoned in the "civilized world". It's promoted & called "gentlemanly". Like I said: "Civilized Savages".

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Originally Posted by Stavros

You are obviously confused about the NATO campaign -the Taliban were not responsible for 9/11, al-Qaeda was. You might recall after the 'triumph' of allied bombing in late 2001 and early 2002 which ended the Taliban rule of Afghanistan and shattered al-Qaeda in Afghanistan forcing bin Laden, al_Zawahiri and others to flee, the US, the UK and their allies abandoned Afghanistan to the warlords.

The Taliban are not terrorists, they are fighting to free their country from foreign occupation -the foreign troops from the very same countries who crowed about their victory ten years ago. And when you have stopped shedding tears for all those young lads (and lasses) who have been killed or injured there, are you going to give much thought to the 30-40-50 year old officers who 'control' them? Innocents abroad? Not really. Presumably if this was 1980 and you were living in London you would be advocating the mass slaughter of 'Irish dogs' -??

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you have just stated the biggest load of crap the Taliban aided Al-Qaeda and they the Taliban still control large parts Afganistan .i don't care about the Irish they are Christian.

The Taliban may have given al-Qaeda licence to operate in Afghanistan, but that is not the same as being part of the 9/11 operation, even part of the leadership of al-Qaeda at the time didn't know and also, did not approve of the operation and left the group because of that. The 'Arabi' as local people referred to al-Qaeda and many of the foreign Mujahideen who stayed behind after the USSR left, were hated and there was evidence that even Mullah Omar was responding to pressure to throw bin Laden out of the country. The Taliban was nurtured in Pakistan but it is mostly Afghan and they don't control large parts of Afghanistan, there are approximately 25,000 of them -making them impossible to defeat militarily. Because they present themselves in rural areas as champions of local issues, where the officials locally and nationally are corrupt, they have more support than they deserve -the real issue here is why the central government that has been in receipt of staggering sums of money, has failed in all of its obectives, which is why NATO forces are still there.

As for the Irish, you are obviously unaware of the extent of anti-Irtish feeling that developed in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, every bit as bad as the things you have said about Muslims. But you pick and choose your villains anyway.

Stavros...."Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep
With phantoms an unprofitable strife."

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Originally Posted by Stavros

The Taliban may have given al-Qaeda licence to operate in Afghanistan, but that is not the same as being part of the 9/11 operation, even part of the leadership of al-Qaeda at the time didn't know and also, did not approve of the operation and left the group because of that. The 'Arabi' as local people referred to al-Qaeda and many of the foreign Mujahideen who stayed behind after the USSR left, were hated and there was evidence that even Mullah Omar was responding to pressure to throw bin Laden out of the country. The Taliban was nurtured in Pakistan but it is mostly Afghan and they don't control large parts of Afghanistan, there are approximately 25,000 of them -making them impossible to defeat militarily. Because they present themselves in rural areas as champions of local issues, where the officials locally and nationally are corrupt, they have more support than they deserve -the real issue here is why the central government that has been in receipt of staggering sums of money, has failed in all of its obectives, which is why NATO forces are still there.

As for the Irish, you are obviously unaware of the extent of anti-Irtish feeling that developed in the UK in the 1970s and 1980s, every bit as bad as the things you have said about Muslims. But you pick and choose your villains anyway.

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Lots of Irish in Australia and we have no problem with them but Arabs and Muslims are not liked in Australia.I thought that troops should never been put in that filthy pace called Afghanistan just keep bombing the fuck out of the rate hole .i know you and your fellow Brits love the vile muslims and you want more of them you can have ours if you want? we don't want them!

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Stavros...."Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep
With phantoms an unprofitable strife."

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:iagree: Or, more succinctly, a pearls and swine scenario...... :geek:

i know Britian is an islamic country and you have sharia law so i reckon you would love to have our drive by ,drug dealing towel heads by the boatload .when should we start sending them?oh ours don't like working so they will all expect the dole and firearms plus a chem lab so you lot better get working

So droll Russtafa

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Originally Posted by russtafa

i know Britian is an islamic country and you have sharia law so i reckon you would love to have our drive by ,drug dealing towel heads by the boatload .when should we start sending them?oh ours don't like working so they will all expect the dole and firearms plus a chem lab so you lot better get working

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I think you have not understood the point I was trying to make. In the 1970s and 1980s the Provisional IRA bombed London and other cities many more times than we have been bombed by extremist Muslims, and the Irish were collectively abused by many people because of that, if you were as old as me its a case of having heard it all before.

Look at it this way, in the 1880s there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Italian immigrants were 'coming over here' -as indeed they were- and that they were bringing with them crime and disease. A medical journal called The Lancet even published a scurrilous article on the concentration of Italians in the Holborn area (near our Kings Cross) but when the London County Council Medical Officer wrote a report, he noted that Italian homes were the cleanest in that area of low-quality overcrowded buildings, compared to Irish and English homes; that there were less incidences of disease, and that the so-called crime was Italian men arguing over card games but getting arrested because of needlessly excessive policing (sound familiar?).

Twenty years later there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Jews from Russia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland all wearing fancy dress and weird haircuts were flooding into London and bringing crime and disease...one of the things that the Orthodox Jewish communities established in the UK was the Beth Din, the Jewish court which provides authentic certificates for Kosher butchers and bakers, and that issues the Get which is the formal religious acknowledgement of Divorce, and many women bitterly complain that they can get divorced in an English court but if the Beth Din declines to give it, they cannot remarry -and these are observant Jews for whom the religious edict is crucial. Physically too, there is now an Eruv in an area of North-West London which demarcates the area in which observant Jews are not allowed to drive a car on the Sabbath, and so on; there are wires and things on telegraph poles so that Jews can tell where they are.

So yes, as with Jewish law, there is a similar version of Shari'a law which provides Muslims with a religious version of divorce; there are Imams who offer advice, or fatwa just as Catholics go to Confession, and devout Buddhists can seek out a monk for guidance on an issue the Law of England cannot deal with. It is all part of living in a multi-cultural society in which we tolerate a variety of religions, it is not part of the price we pay for freedom, an unacceptable cost, it is a benefit. It is one of the reasons why people want to live in this country.


Muslims make up barely 5% of the population of the UK, Islam is the second biggest religion after Christianity, yet :
A 2009 survey of the attitudes of British Muslims found them to identify more strongly with the UK than the rest of the population, with a much higher regard for the country's institutions, and to be more tolerant towards people of other religions. However, the vast majority of them have strongly conservative views on moral issues such as homosexuality and extra-marital sex, both differing dramatically from those held by the rest of the British population.

I suggest that your depiction of the Muslims in Britain is, shall we say, ill-informed.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I think you have not understood the point I was trying to make. In the 1970s and 1980s the Provisional IRA bombed London and other cities many more times than we have been bombed by extremist Muslims, and the Irish were collectively abused by many people because of that, if you were as old as me its a case of having heard it all before.

Look at it this way, in the 1880s there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Italian immigrants were 'coming over here' -as indeed they were- and that they were bringing with them crime and disease. A medical journal called The Lancet even published a scurrilous article on the concentration of Italians in the Holborn area (near our Kings Cross) but when the London County Council Medical Officer wrote a report, he noted that Italian homes were the cleanest in that area of low-quality overcrowded buildings, compared to Irish and English homes; that there were less incidences of disease, and that the so-called crime was Italian men arguing over card but getting arrested because of needlessly excessive policing (sound familiar?).

Twenty years later there was, in some people's minds, the idea that Jews from Russia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland all wearing fancy dress and weird haircuts were flooding into London and bringing crime and disease...one of the things that the Orthodox Jewish communities established in the UK was the Beth Din, the Jewish court which provides authentic certificates for Kosher butchers and bakers, and that issues the Get which is the formal religious acknowledgement of Divorce, and many women bitterly complain that they can get divorced in an English court but if the Beth Din declines to give it, they cannot remarry -and these are observant Jews for whom the religious edict is crucial. Physically too, there is now an Eruv in an area of North-West London which demarcates the area in which observant Jews are not allowed to drive a car on the Sabbath, and so on; there are wires and things on telegraph poles so that Jews can tell where they are.

So yes, as with Jewish law, there is a similar version of Shari'a law which provides Muslims with a religious version of divorce; there are Imams who offer advice, or fatwa just as Catholics go to Confession, and devout Buddhists can seek out a monk for guidance on an issue the Law of England cannot deal with. It is all part of living in a multi-cultural society in which we tolerate a variety of religions, it is not part of the price we pay for freedom, an unacceptable cost, it is a benefit. It is one of the reasons why people want to live in this country.


Muslims make up barely 5% of the population of the UK, Islam is the second biggest religion after Christianity, yet :
A 2009 survey of the attitudes of British Muslims found them to identify more strongly with the UK than the rest of the population, with a much higher regard for the country's institutions, and to be more tolerant towards people of other religions. However, the vast majority of them have strongly conservative views on moral issues such as homosexuality and extra-marital sex, both differing dramatically from those held by the rest of the British population.

I suggest that your depiction of the Muslims in Britain is, shall we say, ill-informed.

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yeah and if you want to cop that shit it's up to you poms but i reckon FUCK THAT FOR A JOKE.But the average Aussie now thinks of Britain as a fucking right off,not that we can talk with our bloody useless politicians doing their best to fuck this great country of ours with these lebo/bike gangs and these boaties on the state housing

lol... a morlock writes

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Originally Posted by russtafa

yeah and if you want to cop that shit it's up to you poms but i reckon FUCK THAT FOR A JOKE.

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I genuinely dont understand what you are saying; maybe its best to pass on this and move on to the tennis -oh, no, its in Melbourne...cue spittle and rage from Russtafa....

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I suggest that your depiction of the Muslims in Britain is, shall we say, ill-informed.

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Really? You're talking to Rustaffa. More like:
I suggest that your depiction of ___(enter almost anything here)___ is, shall we say, ill-informed.

You guys! You're forgetting that down-under they write up-side-down. If you turn over his post russtafa says, "There is no God but Allah and his prophet is Mohammad." Either that or, "John is dead, John is dead, John is dead."

If it wasn't for Sharia law, I believe a proportion of trannys entering Australia would stay at home. I also think the average aussie is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by russtafa

yeah and if you want to cop that shit it's up to you poms but i reckon FUCK THAT FOR A JOKE.But the average Aussie now thinks of Britain as a fucking right off,not that we can talk with our bloody useless politicians doing their best to fuck this great country of ours with these lebo/bike gangs and these boaties on the state housing

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I actually don't know what Prospero or Stavro's intent or point here is......or if they even have one. They obviously don't understand the brutality or emotion of war, but most people don't. So to avoid any future pissing contests, here is how our military should handle all future contacts with the Taliban or al Qaeda. Thank Christ they're not company commanders responsible for the lives of their platoons.
WZippers: Diggers meet Hellfire - YouTube

Poof...Three less Taliban we don't have to worry about disrespecting.

to answer Trish,Stavros ,Hippie i don't understand why you people don't go and live with your muslim friends and take up a good trade with your buddies like explosives if you love them so much

We do go on and live with our Muslim friends, at least I do. They number among my colleagues, my friends, my neighbors. We don't do much trade in explosives around here though. Most people here just work in factories, farms, stores, offices etc. If you got out and talked amicably with people, you might discover they're not so frightening. Maybe you would find your hate is not at all well-grounded. Did you ever wonder what your signature "live with honour" means?

good for you Trish i suppose they are great people that's what the Christians say in Egypt or in Iraq that the muslims make such great neighbours but i think i will skip their hospitality

Minorities usually have plenty of legitimate complaints no matter what their religion and where they are located. People are people. Something you'll learn when you grow up.

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Originally Posted by trish

Minorities usually have plenty of legitimate complaints no matter what their religion and where they are located. People are people. Something you'll learn when you grow up.

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i have grown up and i worked on the door for many years and saw the worst of people especially muslims if you want to suck their cocks that's your problem but i and the majority of Australians want nothing to do with them and i suspect most right thinking Americans would say the same as for the Brits well that place is fucked and over run with dirty muslims and the average Brit has no say in the running of their country