Is Tgirl a better word - and should that become the norm?

[iagodelgado]

The bathroom test is relevant in real life.

For years I managed or supervised large numbers of females and males at work and giving them a suitable working environment was important.

If Human Relations Dept informed me that one of my staff was transsexual, I'd be happy to support said person in using the correct bathroom.

If HRD informed me that one of my staff was a cross-dresser, I would not be supportive of them using what I see as the wrong bathroom.

It might be different in clubs where both types of people mix, but I am concerned with general life, not highly specialised situations. The bathroom test applies in other areas of life e.g. public areas frequented by people under 18. (Please note, that comment has nothing to do with paedophiles.)

That brings us to what constitutes 'transsexual'. Krissy goes for 'true belief', which I can't buy. Atheists, Jews, Moslems, Christians etc. can't all be right, despite their 'true belief'.

MsBehavin's check is better. It certainly can't just be individual assertion, because that reminds me of the tale of the mental asylum with two Jesus's at the same time. It requires some form of independent, external verification. What is reasonable in this respect is problematic.

This thread went through a stage of whether transsexual people would make progress faster (in gaining equality of rights) if they acted alone, separate from cross-dressers, separate from other groups under the transgender umbrella, or whether these groups should join forces.

Your opinion on this, please?

[GroobyKrissy]

Look Msbhaven...

I'm not going to include your last post as a quote this time and instead just address you directly. I have done nothing more than hold you accountable TO YOUR OWN STATED definition(s) of the word, "Transsexual", which was first THIS:
"Transsexual is a state of mind."

Then, when I pressed on that as being so completely and utterly vague as to include just about anyone, YOU changed it to THIS:
"Transsexualism is an incongruity between what the brain identifies itself as and the physical body that contains said brain."

Then, I pressed back on that and gave you ample time to reword or clarify that, which you chose not to do. Thus this stays as your latest self-stated definition of Transsexual.
You would think that every actual Transsexual on this board would have an issue with you defining Transsexualism (and by implication, Transsexuals) simply as an "incongruity" which is to say, a mistake or a twisting (this is a noun here) of something normal and/or once beautiful.

Currently, now, you say, in relation to the simple definitions that Felicia posted (italics mine):
"That is a perfectly well thought out rational and sensible dissertation on transsexualism, cross dressing, and gender identity disorder. And I don't have a problem with the theories contained there in."

And then you go on to completely contradict your second sentence by placing all sorts of modifiers on that definition in your next three paragraphs. You are all over the map... a so-called "expert", with years of "experience" who cannot even pick, relate, and stay with one definition.

Kelly asked me for my definition... I gave it. It is clear. I have no need to revise it, change it, or alter it. And, I'll defend it.

So far, all you've done is go along with the latest, greatest... whatever is convenient... whatever fits what you're saying right then and there. Basically you've now said, the "right" (not the term itself - this is an important distinction) to use the word "Transsexual" as a self-identification is based upon a series of physical and legal changes that must be tangibly concrete in order to be recognized.

Even at that, if you had cared to read my introductory thread, you would know that I then fall into (AGAIN) your own stated terms (I have been clinically diagnosed, and am in the process of making legal changes, and have notified my employer of an upcoming transitional status, and etc.). Still, you won't give me the decency and instead, basically say that I, and many others in similar circumstances, are an "insult" to the larger TS community.

Classy.

[GroobyKrissy]

Look Kelly...

You said this:

"I am shocked you write for a magazine or will be involved in anything to do with activism. If that's the case I'm scared..."

You know what scares me. Hearing this on the radio (this was an interview on a fairly well-known station between one of our very own TS Pornstars and the host... I'm paraphrasing since I don't remember the exact quote).

Host: So, you're "Transsexual"... Can you tell our listeners that that means?

TS Pornstar: *...silence...* Well, I have a dick.

Host: *laughter* Wait, wait, wait! Joe Blow (I don't remember his name but the host was referring to one of the producers) over here has a dick. Does that make him Transsexual? (another round of laughter).

TS Pornstar: Well, does he have tits? Because I have tits and a dick!

Host: *laughter* OK, well, that settles that.

Then the conversation went on. Now, you've got a TS Pornstar with a national platform to actually give a serious answer to a question and maybe help clear the issue up for some people. Instead, she came off looking uneducated, unprepared, and I would argue, did far more "damage" to any "cause" than some silly CD being arrested for stealing panties and splashed all over the news.

So, Kelly... be scared. But be scared of your own, who are ill-prepared and (mostly) cannot relate or argue the point of what Transsexual is and means. This is my point. Know the issue. Educate yourself on the issue. Know how to explain the issue. Those on this board that I've engaged in have failed to do so and I'm fairly certain, if it was them sitting in that chair being asked by that host, "Explain to us what Transsexual means.", would come off looking and sounding equally foolish.

Look, I've walked in academic circles my whole life. I'm smart, with a GPA that would make you say, "Wait, I thought 4.0 was the top you could get." and other stupid crap and titles that I won't even mention. I can tell you this. The academic world is ruthless and it will chew you up and spit you out if you come out swinging without the tools and logic to back up your arguments. I will challenge the academics and leave the award ceremonies, media outlets, and radio gigs (which I think are no less important) to those who shine there. I do not. My strengths lie in breaking down a discourse into pure logic and tackling issues on that basis. This is the world of academia and one that I am well accustomed to engaging in.

I have those tools and I have that logic. So, yes... I will put them to use to fight for a cause that I think needs addressing and I'll be equally fair and damning to the Transsexual community and the Transgender community for the bullshit that they both employ.

I've already sent letters out to several academic magazines, journals, and papers and have taken personal steps to create a foundation to fund this journey. I've increased by almost 300% my social media presence over the last year, and I plan on becoming more and more vocal throughout 2014 and getting more and more involved in any instance where I see and issue relating to either community that needs to be addressed, starting first at the local level here in Oregon and branching out from there.

I don't want the title activist and don't really care to be recognized for it. I would just as soon get the ball rolling and then hand it off to someone else and just fund it privately and quietly. But, until that happens, I'll do what I can while I have the means and resources (thanks to my male privilege) to do it.

So... guess who else is "scared"? Me.

I realize I'm going to take a FUCKING DUMP TRUCK of crap from both sides once I start releasing papers, articles, and videos. I'm willing to take it because I think the conversation is worth having... and "winnable" at this time in our lives here on Earth. This is a fight we can now win. I'm sure of it. But we all need help and we need to unify the community or else the numbers just aren't there to accomplish anything.

[GroobyKrissy]

Anyway... those two posts were my last in this thread.

Again, thank you to both Kelly and Msbhaven, and also Felicia for the input and conversation.

See y'all around!

[MrsKellyPierce]

You do not know what a transsexual is!

Not many transsexuals I know that is an actual one who transitioned later in life had the BELIEF they were female!

Many didn't even know what was going on!

They had a thoughts and feelings something was wrong or they were not right.

Some think they are just gay at first while others think they just like dressing as women

The belief isn't right off the bat for many transsexuals...

Some deny it to themselves or block it out

I knew from a young age I didn't even know I wasn't a female like my niece till my mom was giving us both a bath and she obviously had something different than me!

Just because a transsexual goes through a confusion period doesn't make them a gay make or a crossdresser! It just took them time to find themselves! Many are too scared to move down the road to transition and dressing up here and there is an outlet!

I really don't get you...if anything crossdressing/gay male was a phase till they found the right answers and truth for them!

You dear hold too tight onto your crossdresser past which I get, because some older transitioners even though they they are trans-women will hold on to their male side for comfort. I mean after you lived and loved a certain way for years it takes some unlearning and piecing the woman you are into the puzzle as well! It's not always cut and dry!

This is why you sound so out of touch when it comes to being a transsexual to me.

Just like you were trying to pick a difference in what Msbhaven and I said.

She stated it's what is going on upstairs, but she doesn't feel someone is a transsexual unless they live the life of one 24/7 etc.

Where as I working with early transitioners and speaking with "men" at groups and conventions that were able to steal a few hours away to talk about their imprisonment they felt either due to having a family, coming from a family with money who would be outraged, or just not ready to transition were crying in tears how they wished they could just be normal! That these "thoughts" would go away! Their so called "belief" you talk about was a belief in the life they built as a MAN..but their thoughts and workings upstairs kept telling them "You are not a man!", "You are living a lie!", and other mental torture they complained about! This is why I say what I do and feel how I feel on you are never a crossdresser nor are these "men" I came across are men! They are deep down women! Tortured women!

[MrsKellyPierce]

Is that really your reasoning most ts pornstars aren't trying to be advocates they are just trying to make themselves more famous they don't care how they phrase things as long as it brings attention to their website etc

[MrsKellyPierce]

You can't explain what a transsexual is sweety you just speak supposed "intellectual thoughts"

That's a lot diff than actually knowing what DYSPHORIA actually feels like!

[MrsKellyPierce]

Oh so your plan and world domination Krissy is to tell everyone we are crossdressers

WONDERFUL

[MrsKellyPierce]

Someone's different way of expressing their gender is insulting, belittling, and a mockery to yours. Thank goodness no one would ever consider that even remotely smug, self righteousness, or superior. LOL

And by all means, let's include the bathroom freak out standard in the discussion. Because a fearful ignorant restroom reaction is always the best driver for social policy and because no women or "fully recognized transsexuals" ever misbehave in bathrooms and there are no gender neutral laws against lewd or indecent behavior in them.

People should distinguish themselves by their own character and behavior not by trying to define or more accurately demean others. Put more simply, do (and define) unto others as you would have them do (and define) unto you.

Peace

FK

Felicia I never said surgery or hormones make you a transsexual

I STATED several times it doesn't having known drag queens and crossdressers with breast and face surgeries who look better than I do buy still identify as either straight/gay men!

I have repeated myself it's the upstairs that determines who is and isn't a transsexual!

And that two years joke is offensive! I am a woman cause of what is going on upstairs!

Many transsexuals don't even opt for any kind of surgery and feel hormones is enough EVERYONES dysphoria is different.

This is why we have psychologist to make sure we are on the right path, but of course there are ones who bypass all this ordering hormones online and going to Thailand and other countries who don't need written letters to get srs. Some find out they didn't have gender dysphoria at all but body dysphoria and they regret the decision and sometimes kill themselves. Sometimes too unversed psychologist diagnose girls wrong too! They slip through the cracks, but the standards and regulations are there for a reason. Personally I feel some transsexuals I met were misdiagnosed or had body dysphoria.

I think you can grasp your true self at any age, any height, and any body type. I also feel it's necessary for any transsexual to transition to put themselves at peace! It's funny how some hormones, name change, and surgeries can fix how we feel.

[GroobyKrissy]

Edited by me.



That brings us to what constitutes 'transsexual'. Krissy goes for 'true belief', which I can't buy. Atheists, Jews, Moslems, Christians etc. can't all be right, despite their 'true belief'.

Well, I guess I have to post once more.

iagodelgado:
Look, when you try to quote someone, you need to either disclose that you are only using a partial quote OR quote the entirety of what they said.

That allows the reader to know that you've made a change in the context or that it is a partial quote. That is just common courtesy when you're debating someone in writing. So do me the common courtesy, and if you say, "...Krissy goes for..." and then you quote TWO WORDS of a longer definition completely out of context... make it known that you are doing so.

I never said that Transsexual is just a "true belief"... my definition states a WHOLE lot more than that and does not argue the point of "RIGHT or WRONG" AT ALL, which you're trying to inject into it with your religious listings. It is a completely irrelevant point.

As to your point about unification. Start a new thread. Lay out your case and I'll engage you there. This thread is toast as it is now being said emphatically that my whole goal is to turn the entire world into crossdressing fetishists.

[breakingbad14]

I think so yes, Tgirl just has a nice ring to it to me, pun intended.

[GroobyKrissy]

Oh so your plan and world domination Krissy is to tell everyone we are crossdressers

WONDERFUL

Yup. That's my goal. Despite me saying at least 10 times now, "Crossdressers are not all Transsexual"... that is all that gets taken from this entire conversation. Krissy wants to turn the world into crossdressers.

Kelly:

Let's see who is more confused here.

FIRST
You fail to grasp the rather simple difference between "ARE" (always, equals, etc.) and "CAN BE". I've never said "ARE". I've said, "can be." THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE AND ONE THAT YOU DO NOT ALLOW FOR.

SECOND
You've stated emphatically now (slightly paraphrasing because I'm too lazy to get the exact quote - context has not been changed however):

"Crossdressers are NEVER Transsexual."
"Drag Queens CAN BE Transsexual."

Anyone with half a brain realizes the inherent disparity between these two statements. Some Crossdressers are Drag Queens and some Drag Queens are Crossdressers... that is pretty much indisputable.

You then threw sexuality into the mix as if that makes a difference:
"Crossdressers are straight men." (again, pretty much a direct quote from you).

No Kelly, Dear:
Crossdressers are MOSTLY made up of straight men, but can also be gay men, bisexual men, ...all sorts of men-men. The same can be said of Drag Queens. Besides the fact that one is a job and one is fetish, the two terms are basically, crudely interchangeable (although wholly unrelated). And, sexual orientation has nothing to do with Transsexualism at all so putting that into the mix is at best, a weak argument.

Your whole argument for "Drag Queens CAN BE Transsexual" is your own coping mechanism to deal with your past because you do not want the term "crossdresser" associated with you presently. Doing so would blow apart your entire argument. PERIOD. END OF STORY.

In this very thread, you've admitted to being a Drag Queen at one stage of your life; and now, claiming the title of Transsexual, you must allow for that possibility or else you are simply a "Crossdresser who became Transsexual".

This isn't hard to see.

So who is more confused?
A. The person who can define the terms without changing them (ME)

B. The person who must continually change the terms to suit their present needs (YOU)?

The answer is obvious and if you don't see that, fine.

I'm now completely done with this thread so continue to spout of your nonsense, and say that I've said things I've never said, and drip your cloying "honey", "dear", sweetie"...

Your argument is dumb, Kelly. It is illogical, contradicts itself, and damaging to your supposed larger activist goal.

Put you on Piers Morgan and he wouldn't need any help being an ass or mocking the TG/TS community... you'd do the work completely and utterly for him.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Krissy you said a transsexual can be a crossdresser point blank..the same as saying a transsexual can be a gay man or a straight man.

The oldest transitioner I know was 76 years old when she had srs she felt she could finally be herself that her children were raised and grandchildren.

She said to me Kelly you know I knew 50 years ago what I was I wore women things for comfort here and there, but I would never consider myself a crossdresser! I said you know what Lorie nor would I! It pained her she was waiting for my approval to say or no say she was. Lorie is a beautiful woman today and happy!

See unlike you I have actually spoken to real transsexuals with real experiences and thoughts. You have text books and the internet for your guide Krissy!

[MrsKellyPierce]

Drag QUEEN is a JOB! I did drag after I transitioned! I transitioned at 12 years old! It was an outlet to make money and to put my dancing skills of 12 years to work! I also enjoyed doing pageants I wanted to be a Miss Continental which has loads of transsexuals! Carmen Carrera transsexual! Rupauls Drag Race! I was never a gay man dressing up or was I a crossdresser! Transsexual performers prefer showgirl over drag queen! You sound so idiotic!

Illogical lol peoples real life feelings and thoughts actual trans-women are ILLOGICAL.. you are joke!

[SammiValentine]

I think so yes, Tgirl just has a nice ring to it to me, pun intended.

damn you took my ring piece.. and made it your own??!!!! lol x

[MrsKellyPierce]

Krissy let me name TRANSSEXUALS WHO DO DRAG...IT'S A LIVING

Candis Cayne, Carmen Carrera, Mimi Marks, TS PORNSTAR WENDY WILLIAMS, TS PORNSTAR Michelle Austin, Erica Andrews, and the list goes on and on!!

It has nothing to do with being a "crossdresser"

GEEZUS...

[breakingbad14]

damn you took my ring piece.. and made it your own??!!!! lol x

lol I did, it's my ring piece now ;) xx

[GroobyKrissy]

Krissy you said a transsexual can be a crossdresser point blank..the same as saying a transsexual can be a gay man or a straight man.

The oldest transitioner I know was 76 years old when she had srs she felt she could finally be herself that her children were raised and grandchildren.

She said to me Kelly you know I knew 50 years ago what I was I wore women things for comfort here and there, but I would never consider myself a crossdresser! I said you know what Lorie nor would I! It pained her she was waiting for my approval to say or no say she was. Lorie is a beautiful woman today and happy!

See unlike you I have actually spoken to real transsexuals with real experiences and thoughts. You have text books and the internet for your guide Krissy!

CAN BE, Kelly, CAN BE. I cannot make that more clear. AND, it is YOU who injected sexual orientation into this conversation... I NEVER DID and NEVER WOULD. I've only refuted your own lunacy with your "Crossdressers are NEVER Transsexual but Drag Queens CAN BE Transsexual" lines. Sexual Orientation has nothing to do with the topics of Transsexual, CD/TV, ETC. NOTHING.

CAN BE doesn't mean ALWAYS ARE... I really do fail to see how you cannot grasp this easily grasped different.

Your anecdotes are heartwarming. Irrelevant and insignificant to the topic at hand... but so, so heartwarming. You are such a good person to take your time to visit and befriend some lowly, crossdressers and old-age transitioners. Kudos to you. Guess what, I have a Black friend so I cannot possibly be racist... ever heard that line before?

You're totally correct Kelly. I have never EVER, EVER spoken with an actual Transsexual, CD/TV, or even a person face to face. I just hide out in my basement and eat nachos.

Kelly, I rarely do this but I simply can't resist anymore.

Not only are your points dumb, which I've been saying to this point.
YOU are, in fact, dumb. I'll apologize for that in 3...2...1...

Kelly, I'm sorry I called you dumb. It was a moment of weakness. But you are.

[MrsKellyPierce]

CAN BE, Kelly, CAN BE. I cannot make that more clear. AND, it is YOU who injected sexual orientation into this conversation... I NEVER DID and NEVER WOULD. I've only refuted your own lunacy with your "Crossdressers are NEVER Transsexual but Drag Queens CAN BE Transsexual" lines. Sexual Orientation has nothing to do with the topics of Transsexual, CD/TV, ETC. NOTHING.

CAN BE doesn't mean ALWAYS ARE... I really do fail to see how you cannot grasp this easily grasped different.

Your anecdotes are heartwarming. Irrelevant and insignificant to the topic at hand... but so, so heartwarming. You are such a good person to take your time to visit and befriend some lowly, crossdressers and old-age transitioners. Kudos to you. Guess what, I have a Black friend so I cannot possibly be racist... ever heard that line before?

You're totally correct Kelly. I have never EVER, EVER spoken with an actual Transsexual, CD/TV, or even a person face to face. I just hide out in my basement and eat nachos.

Kelly, I rarely do this but I simply can't resist anymore.

Not only are your points dumb, which I've been saying to this point.
YOU are, in fact, dumb. I'll apologize for that in 3...2...1...

Kelly, I'm sorry I called you dumb. It was a moment of weakness. But you are.

No sweety you are

Thinking drag queens are only gay/bi/straight men

There are transsexuals who do it hell there are even Females and post op trans-women who do it Candi Stratton being the most famous!

You are unequipped and not educated enough on transsexuals!

[GroobyKrissy]

Krissy let me name TRANSSEXUALS WHO DO DRAG...IT'S A LIVING

Candis Cayne, Carmen Carrera, Mimi Marks, TS PORNSTAR WENDY WILLIAMS, TS PORNSTAR Michelle Austin, Erica Andrews, and the list goes on and on!!

It has nothing to do with being a "crossdresser"

GEEZUS...

Nice Kelly... drop your names in the hopes of bringing them to your rescue because you are FLAILING and FLOUNDERING in your own circle of stupid reasoning.

OK, Kelly, I will ask you this then... since you fail to grasp the point at all.

(Can = Does the possibility exist, either imagined or in real life...)

Can Crossdressers be Drag Queens too? YES / NO
Can Drag Queens be Crossdressers too? YES / NO

If you answer anything but "Yes" to either of those questions, your own delusional thinking is made inherently clear. The two are basic terms that ANYONE, with a basic knowledge of the two would agree, overlap.

Bring me ONE... JUST ONE person who will state, in writing that the terms do not (as in NEVER) overlap and cite some actual data or evidence to prove the point and again... I'll leave this board and never return.

I'm waiting.

[GroobyKrissy]

No sweety you are

Thinking drag queens are only gay/bi/straight men

There are transsexuals who do it hell there are even Females and post op trans-women who do it Candi Stratton being the most famous!

You are unequipped and not educated enough on transsexuals!

Fucking Hell...

Where did I say that "Drag Queens are JUST... X,Y,Z." ?

I said they CAN BE those things... and left it open with the "men-men" word which meant (because last time I checked, "men-men" wasn't a thing) you can add more and more terms to the list as needed.

Kelly... you're being dumb. I cannot look at this any other way now. You cannot read a simple statement of "CAN BE" and draw the correct conclusion that it is not a closed statement.

YOU ARE BEING DUMB. PERIOD. I'm through. For reals this time. I simply can't debate or discuss this with you further since you are just too dumb to understand or grasp simple distinctions between words.

Have fun and enjoy the free reign you have to call me whatever and answer however you please in this thread. Take it as a win for yourself.

[MrsKellyPierce]

You are offensive, uninformed, and childish!

Drag queens can be more than just men!

Candi Stratton a post op trans woman is a drag performer

There are female drag performers

There are celebrity impersonators the list goes on!

Those people I mentioned weren't crossdressers! Crossdressers don't think they aren't men!

Who cares how old a transitioner is they are still transsexuals!

You are an idiot

[MrsKellyPierce]

Fucking Hell...

Where did I say that "Drag Queens are JUST... X,Y,Z." ?

I said they CAN BE those things... and left it open with the "men-men" word which meant (because last time I checked, "men-men" wasn't a thing) you can add more and more terms to the list as needed.

Kelly... you're being dumb. I cannot look at this any other way now. You cannot read a simple statement of "CAN BE" and draw the correct conclusion that it is not a closed statement.

YOU ARE BEING DUMB. PERIOD. I'm through. For reals this time. I simply can't debate or discuss this with you further since you are just too dumb to understand or grasp simple distinctions between words.

Have fun and enjoy the free reign you have to call me whatever and answer however you please in this thread. Take it as a win for yourself.

You said I was a crossdresser and ashamed of being a drag queen in my part go read!

I transitioned at 12 dumb dumb

[MrsKellyPierce]

Allow me to show you..

[MrsKellyPierce]

My history is there oh wait I did crossdress once when I did the turn about shoe for gay pride fundraising event I put on a fake mustache and hoodie and jeans and did a eminen song..my history is online I was never a crossdresser

[GroobyKrissy]

You said I was a crossdresser and ashamed of being a drag queen in my part go read!

I transitioned at 12 dumb dumb

ENOUGH.

Are you dyslexic? I said the EXACT opposite of what you say I did.

I said you were DRAG QUEEN formerly, and presently, (I never said "ASHAMED" either) did not want to be associated with being a CROSSDRESSER.

Fucking Hell, Kelly... you can't even quote someone correctly. So you go ahead and read.

Box of rocks, Kelly. Box.of.rocks.

[TSPornFan]

This depends on the women. If she is okay with people calling her a tgirl, shemale, or tranny then it's fine. However, it is not fine to call someone that if he or she dislike the term.

It's not different than how some blacks react to the word Nigger. Some blacks are cool with other blacks and rarely other people from different racial groups to call them a Nigger. Personally, I take offense to anyone regardless of their race when they call me a Nigger.

[dderek123]

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/062/a/d/castle_popcorn_gif_by_namgis-d5wuzdn.gif

[MrsKellyPierce]

I don't do shows anymore dumb dumb so I am not a drag performer any more

Krissy you are an idiot

[MrsKellyPierce]

I don't need to quote you I print screened what you said

[GroobyKrissy]

I don't do shows anymore dumb dumb so I am not a drag performer any more

Krissy you are an idiot

I was actually going to make this point for you since it, again contradicts your entire argument. But, figured you'd probably wake up sometime and realize... HEY... Here is an out for me... (not realizing of course, that it again, contradicts your entire argument). I just wanted to see if you'd make the point for me... which your vanity did. Thanks.

You say you "transitioned" at 12. Unless you were doing Drag Queen shows before you were 12, then tell me... why do you refer TO YOURSELF as a former "Drag Queen"?

In reality, as your screen shot says, and I would agree with that person, you were never a Drag Queen if you identified as Transsexual and transitioned by/at 12. The definition of Drag Queen includes "man" or "male"... which you were not by then, right? You were a woman playing dress up in lavish outfits and costumes and dancing on the stage for money or entertainment.

So, you were never a Drag Queen, yet you say you were a Drag Queen.

So, what the fuck am I to believe, Kelly? Were you, or were you not a Drag Queen?

Who is confused about themselves? You... who doesn't even know if you were a Drag Queen or not...

or Me... who knows exactly who I am, who I was, and who I want to become?

[MrsKellyPierce]

I was actually going to make this point for you since it, again contradicts your entire argument. But, figured you'd probably wake up sometime and realize... HEY... Here is an out for me... (not realizing of course, that it again, contradicts your entire argument). I just wanted to see if you'd make the point for me... which your vanity did. Thanks.

You say you "transitioned" at 12. Unless you were doing Drag Queen shows before you were 12, then tell me... why do you refer TO YOURSELF as a former "Drag Queen"?

In reality, as your screen shot says, and I would agree with that person, you were never a Drag Queen if you identified as Transsexual and transitioned by/at 12. The definition of Drag Queen includes "man" or "male"... which you were not by then, right? You were a woman playing dress up in lavish outfits and costumes and dancing on the stage for money or entertainment.

So, you were never a Drag Queen, yet you say you were a Drag Queen.

So, what the fuck am I to believe, Kelly? Were you, or were you not a Drag Queen?

Who is confused about themselves? You... who doesn't even know if you were a Drag Queen or not...

or Me... who knows exactly who I am, who I was, and who I want to become?

When I did drag pageants and drag shows even though I'm a transsexual I was doing drag..drag queen..female impersonation..showgirl

It's an art form and you can make good money doing it

I don't know about you but I don't wear a ton of make-up, impersonate divas, lip sync, collect tips, wear wigs and huge lashes in my personal life that was all drag

[simonisthebest]

Kelly Shore is a proud transexual for years ,who cares about her community & fight for her rights ,i think she doesnt deserve to be called Out ,that way

specially by someone who clearly exploit The transexual community,to get a lil Buzz on Internet...How about u start by updating your gender, you are not a Shemale or a transexual like u said on ur Site , you're a "Cross Dresser" & seem ashamed To Be..,

stop arguin with people who been throught depression,anxiety & every phase off transitionning ,when u just put u little Wig & get ur nails Done for Fun:yayo:
u dont know nothin about this world

[giovanni_hotel]

I don't know why some of you get caught up in any argument with GroobyKrissy.
It's like swimming in quicksand.

GroobyKrissy doesn't argue for elucidation or a higher understanding, GroobyKrissy argues because GroobyKrissy enjoys intensely reading GroobyKrissy's own typed words posted endlessly in run-on threads.

GroobyKrissy will never concede anything and GroobyKrissy is always right.

Pass on that.

[SammiValentine]

I don't know why some of you get caught up in any argument with GroobyKrissy.
It's like swimming in quicksand.

GroobyKrissy doesn't argue for elucidation or a higher understanding, GroobyKrissy argues because GroobyKrissy enjoys intensely reading GroobyKrissy's own typed words posted endlessly in run-on threads.

GroobyKrissy will never concede anything and GroobyKrissy is always right.

Pass on that.


Is swimming in custard as difficult as quicksand?? I always wonder!

[dderek123]

I don't know why some of you get caught up in any argument with GroobyKrissy.
It's like swimming in quicksand.

GroobyKrissy doesn't argue for elucidation or a higher understanding, GroobyKrissy argues because GroobyKrissy enjoys intensely reading GroobyKrissy's own typed words posted endlessly in run-on threads.

GroobyKrissy will never concede anything and GroobyKrissy is always right.

Pass on that.

Yep she has been on a roll with her "discussions" lately.

[The Piper]

Is swimming in custard as difficult as quicksand?? I always wonder!


No it's harder in quicksand sammi,and it doesn't taste as nice if you swallow any,aswell.


Nice avatar btw.

[VictoriaVeil]

Steven,

Back to your original question. In my opinion, A tgirl is cutesy as the "girl" refers to us in a diminutive fashion. Tranny is more slang than anything. So if you are going to refer to a transgendered by including the "trans" part- then I would go with trans Woman or Trans Man.

Just sayin...

[SammiValentine]

No it's harder in quicksand sammi,and it doesn't taste as nice if you swallow any,aswell.


Nice avatar btw.


hahah ok i thought as the pool of custard will not be naturally occurring then it would probably result in the quick sand being the realdeal... how about angeldelight?? any flavour.

thanks re my trannytar!!!ooooooooooops avatar

[Felicia Katt]

Felicia I never said surgery or hormones make you a transsexual

I STATED several times it doesn't having known drag queens and crossdressers with breast and face surgeries who look better than I do buy still identify as either straight/gay men!

I have repeated myself it's the upstairs that determines who is and isn't a transsexual!

And that two years joke is offensive! I am a woman cause of what is going on upstairs!

Many transsexuals don't even opt for any kind of surgery and feel hormones is enough EVERYONES dysphoria is different.

This is why we have psychologist to make sure we are on the right path, but of course there are ones who bypass all this ordering hormones online and going to Thailand and other countries who don't need written letters to get srs. Some find out they didn't have gender dysphoria at all but body dysphoria and they regret the decision and sometimes kill themselves. Sometimes too unversed psychologist diagnose girls wrong too! They slip through the cracks, but the standards and regulations are there for a reason. Personally I feel some transsexuals I met were misdiagnosed or had body dysphoria.

I think you can grasp your true self at any age, any height, and any body type. I also feel it's necessary for any transsexual to transition to put themselves at peace! It's funny how some hormones, name change, and surgeries can fix how we feel.
Kelly, my post was not directed at you, since I didn't see you using such hateful comments. Overall, I appreciate your point of view on this And the joke is also not about you, but about how labels in this community are misused and misapplied, to denigrate instead of define, to self-elevate rather than educate, or to stratify rather signify. Because we have all heard people in this scene hurl the terms cross-dresser or transvestite or drag queen as invective or insults to bring someone wrongly down or build themselves falsely up.


Peace

Fk

[MrsKellyPierce]

This is letter to my Transsexual Sisters:

The last two days I have been in a debate with this girl on a forum whose name is Krissy. Krissy was a crossdresser, but now believes she is a transsexual. I am pleased she found her true self, but I am not pleased that she is expressing transsexuals were once crossdressers.

We as transsexuals may have lived our lives as straight men, gay men, and maybe even dressed feminine before going down the path to transition, but in my opinion we were never crossdressers! The moment you you notice you are dysphoric; (you know the feeling inside you feel you are the opposite gender you were born and the unending need to expel your true self) you to me are a transsexual! The living as a man and crossdressing was simply a phase on your road to becoming and finding your true self; some will never leave that phase! Maybe due to blocking it out, too scared to change the life they have as a man, loss of family, financial reasons, don’t want it to be TRUE, and the list goes on. I feel my sister’s pain who are going through this! You are still my sisters!

Through my years doing activist work, going to transsexual groups, conventions, working in laser offices, and more, my opinion of transsexuals and the transition cycle has changed immensely. I used to think it was about looking a certain way or doing the proper medical treatment. There was no other way. Transition for me was very cut and dry! I probably felt this way due to I transitioned at twelve, but I didn’t even realize I wasn’t a girl till I was age six. I saw that my niece had something different than what I had while my mom was giving me a bath. My mother explained “You are a boy and she is a girl”. Even then I didn’t want to face that reality of my body. I thought I was just like my niece I can still remember being very upset. I remember putting on my mom’s heels, messing in her makeup, trying on my sister’s clothes, and more. My mother always knew so it was quite easy when I expressed who I am. It made me believe that everyone just knows right off the bat, doing activist work and actually interacting with other transsexuals I found this not to be true!

Krissy (the girl I was debating with) states being a transsexual is a “BELIEF” you are the opposite gender of what you were born. Where yes I do agree with that, but at first when you are still discovering yourself I believe it’s a feeling, a thought, or a conscious thought telling you something is wrong about your gender! I don’t believe the “belief” comes along till later. It’s hard to believe in something if you can’t pin point what is going on with you in the first place! I have spoken to transsexuals who didn’t even know what a transsexual was or what was going on inside their head. Some thought they were gay, others thought they were going crazy and ignored it, and many knew there was something wrong but didn’t have the slightest clue what to call it! Krissy I find wants everything to be by text book, which I know many people want that. Actually going out there I have found out everyone’s journey and dysphoria is very different! There is no perfect way and there is no better way! Transition is not a competition, though many girls seem to think it is! Not every girl wants surgeries, some girls can’t do hormones due to health purposes, and the list goes on of differences. I don’t think you can cut and dry a transsexuals journey, but you can cut and dry to say they were never crossdressers!

Transitioning is not about age, beauty, whether you started a family as a man or not, or anything that people like to correlate with why you shouldn’t have transitioned! Transition is about finding the woman you are and bringing it from the inside out!

I remember the oldest transsexual I met when I worked at a Laser office was Lorie. Lorie was 76 years old having hair removal for her sexual reassignment surgery. Lorie told me she was worried what I thought of her due to me being so young. I assure Lorie, I didn’t judge her and she was grabbing the bulls by the horn now to be herself! She pressed on though to say, “Kelly I knew I was a transsexual fifty years ago, but I wanted my children and grand-children to be raised before I did anything for myself.

She then proceeded to tell me sometimes she’d wear womens articles or dress up when she had time alone to feel comfort. She then emplored nervously to me, “Do you think I’m a crossdresser?” She then proceeded to accuse me, “You probably think I’m an old crossdresser that is bypassing the laws.” I was taken aback she would think I would ever think this, but I got a hold of my tongue and told her “Lorie you were just as much as a woman you were then as you are now, hormones and surgeries are just the physical change, the mental change is the important part! You already knew who you were! It must of taken a lot out of you to be so imprisoned in a body you couldn’t stand waking up everyday knowing you are a woman. I admire you, because I feel your journey was a lot harder than mine ever was! I think living a lie is the hardest thing anyone can do, living your truth is so much easier” This put her at ease, and Lorie is happier than ever! She looks beautiful now and is living her truth everyday with her grandchildren! This is something I say to people all the time, there is no angst or trial on my part to say I’m a woman, the angst and trial comes from you telling me I am not! I know the woman I am, I don’t question it!

I also remember being at groups several different “men” came in crying their eyes out like babies, wishing for these feelings inside to go away. They just wanted to be normal, and yet at the same time wished they could live their truth. I was taken aback by this, it really opened my eyes that many know they are transsexual, but they don’t want it to be their truth. Does this make them less than one of us? I don’t feel it does at all. People fool themselves into thinking surgeries and hormones make you more woman than another transsexual or actually living it makes you more woman, but what if corrective surgery and hormone thereapy didn’t exist? We would all be on the same playing field then! Being a transsexual is what happens up stairs! Sex to me is between the ears not the body! Everything we think, feel, believe all happens upstairs! We wouldn’t even know what a MAN or WOMAN was without the ability to think!

I want my transsexual sisters to know if no one else around you sees you as the woman you are…I DO! I see you! I believe in you and you are just as much a woman to me as I am to myself! I don’t care if you haven’t taken the steps maybe you will one day! I don’t care what any other transsexual, doctor, activist, or people in general say I see you as the woman you are! I know how much that can mean to us! We need this validation; it’s why so many of us use men as a validation crutch. I want to validate you and tell you..You are a woman! You are not a crossdresser..You are not a man…you are a woman!

Lots of Love and Luck,
Kelly

[MrsKellyPierce]

Kelly, my post was not directed at you, since I didn't see you using such hateful comments. Overall, I appreciate your point of view on this And the joke is also not about you, but about how labels in this community are misused and misapplied, to denigrate instead of define, to self-elevate rather than educate, or to stratify rather signify. Because we have all heard people in this scene hurl the terms cross-dresser or transvestite or drag queen as invective or insults to bring someone wrongly down or build themselves falsely up.


Peace

Fk

Okay good love you kitty cat lol

[simonisthebest]

This is letter to my Transsexual Sisters:


Lots of Love and Luck,
Kelly
Im

http://forum.culturepsg.com/style_emoticons/default/41148013dff4d0.gif

[msbhaven]

This will be my last post on this topic. I debated with myself long and hard whether I was going to even bother with it but I finally decided I needed to respond to some of the posts direct at me since last night before I gave up on this completely. I know I am wasting my breath on certain people here but it is my hope that any outside party who is interested might glean a few nuggets of wisdom from what I write.

First let me clarify a couple of definitions if I may.

Incongruous: not harmonious in character; in consonant; lacking harmony of parts, incompatible.

Incongruity: out of place — something that doesn't fit in its location or situation.

This then is the definition I had in mind when I said my brain was in congruent with my body, or more specifically my genitalia. As I was when I was born my brain and body did lack harmony of parts, my penis was incompatible with my identity as female, my penis does not fit my situation or it's location. This defines MY experience as a transsexual and most of the medical literature on this subject shows similar results from other transsexual women. Speaking of which;

Transsexual: a person in which the sex-related structures of the brain that define gender identity are exactly opposite the physical sex organs of the body. Put even more simply, a transsexual is a mind that is literally, physically, trapped in a body of the opposite sex.

Basically a fancier way to say what I said when a transsexual is somebody who's brain is in congruent with their body. There's nothing even remotely insulting in saying that. Where that red herring came in I haven't the foggiest idea.

Yes a person can recognize THEMSELVES as a transsexual female and still be regarded by society at large as a male. It takes more then my say so to prove that I am a transsexual female. It takes more then that to prove it to society and it takes more then that to prove it to the medical profession. It also takes more then my say so to prove it to other transsexuals. That's just a fact. I could not have self identified as transsexual while still living as a man and expected to be taken seriously if I didn't attempt to correct the situation I found myself in. So yes a transsexual can know in their own mind what they are before they start transition but they are going to have a very difficult time convincing anybody else of that if they are not attempting to transition. Those in the medical profession who are involved with treating transsexual individual have long recognized that being a transsexual is not something that can be ignored or suppressed forever. Unlike the fascinations of the crossdresser, the absolute compulsion of classic transsexualism is a matter of life and death. Those who are late to transition often find themselves at a crisis eventually where they either transition or commit suicide. I have seen this first hand in multiple cases, with friends who tried to swallow a medicine cabinet, others who checked in to a psych ward because they were a danger to themselves, or yet another who attempted self castration in n attempt to align their body with their mind. The common theme here however is that true transsexuals in modern times eventually transition no matter what the cost or sacrifice. Non transsexuals simply don't. They are content to be who they are.

That is why I place so much emphasis on starting transition to be recognized as a transsexual. Because quite frankly medical opinion states that a true transsexual is compelled to transition at some point, and it can be almost impossible to separate those with a cross dressing fetish from those who are truly transsexual before they transition.

But beyond that transition is a life experience that is essential to becoming our true selves. It is our puberty, it is our awakening, it is our rebirth, our come to Jesus moment. There are a million different little things that transition involves that all integral to our identity as our true selves. It will not only change our bodies but it will change our brains as well. That is a well known scientific fact. No matter what part of you that you keep from your pretransition self you WILL see the world differently after transition. Actually that is a slight inaccuracy because while transition may have a fairly definitive start time for some people it almost never ends for any body. You will grow in to your new identity for the rest of your life just as a natal female grows in to who she will become as a young woman, a middle aged woman, and eventually an elderly woman. Transition defines us and separates us from who we were. It is one of the major turning points in the life of a transsexual and you can't possibly imagine it if you haven't lived it.

So no cross dressers are not just like transsexuals. And early transition transsexuals are not just like transsexuals that have lived as their true self for years and years. That's just the way it is, and you don't understand that, you can't understand it because you haven't lived it yet. I hope that if that is what you want that you eventually do. You will be a more complete person, and you will be a happier person if you truly are transsexual and you transition.

My identity as a woman is not something I put on and take off with my clothes, or make up. It is not a role I play on the internet, or in a club, or on stage. It is who I am, and it is a part of me no matter what I am wearing or not wearing, no matter what I am doing, or where I go it is intrinsic to who I am.

I asked you, Krissy what I would call you if I saw you as a MALE in your MALE role which you apparently still use, not to insult you but because I genuinely wanted to know how you view yourself at work, or other places where you go as a MALE. I know for instances that before my legal name change went through I would don what few male clothes or at least androgynous clothes I had left to fly because it was simply less of a hassle to deal with the TSA that way. I hated it more then anything and it was one of the biggest driving factors for me behind getting my name changed as quickly as possible. Towards the end when I had to do it I became very ashamed of how I would be perceived if somebody who knew me as I am today saw me dressed that way. It was literally a full circle feeling from being afraid in the beginning to step out of the house as a woman to being completely comfortable out of the house as a woman and embarrassed if I had to try and be something other then that. So my question was a direct attempt to try and understand how you define yourself as a person. Because your honest response to that would have been far more enlightening to me then anything else you wrote in your Q&A session.

In fact I asked you to better define where you were in transition through my own direct Q&A session previously and you chose to ignore it. I find it interesting that you continue to call yourself a cross dresser on your web page, you continue to defend cross dressers so vigorously as to be mistaken for one, apparently imply to Kelly that you are too old for transition and can't afford needed surgery, and then contradict all of that by saying you are transitioning, you have started therapy, and that you are coming out at work. You say you are happy with your body but yet you are now talking about transitioning. Which is it because it can't be both? In fact what I really want to know is why you didn't simply take the opportunity I gave you to better define yourself as a transsexual instead of ignoring it?

To be honest your response this morning saying that you were in therapy and that you were transitioning, and that you were coming out at work pretty well indicated to me that you had less interest in better defining yourself as a transsexual then you did in continuing a pointless argument about side issues, semantics, and non sequiturs. Let me give you another definition that I think fits here;

Troll: In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response.

I think that fits rather well here because you have been inflammatory, you have posted extraneous information, you have gone off on tangents, or off topic, and it appears fairly clear that you are more interested in provoking an emotional response then engaging in a productive conversation.

It's sad really because I originally stepped in to this thread to try and help you realize that you don't yet know nearly as much as you think you do and that it can't be helped that you don't. But as I have gone round and round on this with you I've come to realize that you don't care what you don't know, you aren't willing to learn from others, and you aren't interested in expanding your knowledge base or your horizons. You are simply interested in grandstanding on a soap box in an attempt to entertain yourself. Well I hope you have enjoyed it because you are going to have to seek your entertainment with somebody else from now on. I'm done after this post. I see no value in continuing a discussion with you on this topic. I'm quite sure you will respond and I really don't care at this point. I don't need you or your opinions to validate me or mine. And you aren't interested in listening to the opinions or ideas of anyone besides yourself.

[GroobyKrissy]

This is utterly my last word on this board and on this topic. This is self-not pity for me, this is an understanding that I am not welcome here and my time and efforts are served better elsewhere, on my own with people who actually and truly understand the issues and are facing them with a seriousness that it deserves.

I don't care if you do or you don't read the following. I don't write it out of spite or out of anger or really out of anything but a sadness that all that has been taken away from this entire conversation is that "Krissy wants to turn the world into Crossdressers and she loves to argue". That is false (I do love debate though, clearly - but arguing is not the point of my debating) and it is sad to see, but also not entirely unexpected.

KELLY
Your first paragraph in your "letter" (diatribe?) is false, misleading, and quite frankly at this point, since I've explained it enough times, an outright lie. I have never stated that ALL Transsexuals were once Crossdressers just as I have never said that ALL Crossdressers will become or are Transsexuals. I have stated that the POSSIBILITY exists.

If you say that I have said that... that is just plain false and I would ask you to QUOTE EXACTLY where I have stated anything even remotely close to it. Again, you fail to distinguish between the CAN (possibility) and the ARE (a definitive statement). Isn't your husband a lawyer? Ask him if there is a difference between the two statements below:

Black people are all murders. (Crossdressers ARE NEVER Transsexual - your words)
Black people can be murders. (Crossdressers CAN BE Transsexual - my words)

The very fact that you would post this as your opening statement, without clarifying is, in and of itself - intellectually dishonest and if you were actually honest, you would issue an immediate retraction of your so-called "letter" and / or at the very least, clarify what I have said.

MSBHAVEN
You cling to this notion that you've somehow "earned" the title of "Transsexual" because of certain choices that you've made. In my opinion, this is a wrong (not morally... logicaly) point of view, and ultimately damaging because it is illogical, along the same arguments one could say that a Black person, having never experienced or gone through slavery in the first person, has no right to call themselves Black. It is a ludicrous claim.

You fail to see the difference also between marketing - which I do for my BUSINESS/SITE - and a separation of personal identification and belief.

MY LETTER TO THE "transsexual" SISTERHOOD
Look... You know what the biggest difference between you and I is? It isn't that I like to argue, or love reading what I've said, or anything else. It is that I am INTELLECTUALLY honest and am willing to say the things that need to be said to ALL communities and ALL persons. Most of you are not.

THESE ARE basically DIRECT QUOTES FROM Kelly and Msbhaven:

"Crossdressers ARE and CAN NEVER BE Transsexual." - Kelly Pierce
"Drag Queens CAN BE Transsexual." - Kelly Pierce
"Transsexualism is an incongruity between the brain and body." - Msbhaven

These statements are offensive and quite frankly, ludicrous... and every true, self-identified Transsexual should have a problem with all of the above, IF THOUGHT OUT LOGICALLY.

In Kelly's two examples she has basically made the argument that being Transsexual is NOT equal to being a woman (I've explained it - but think it through yourselves). Isn't that the whole fuckin' idea of what Trans-Activism is about? That Transsexuals want the same (or better) treatment as WOMEN?

In Msbhaven's case she has stated that Transsexual is an INCONGRUITY. Go look that word up and tell me if YOU want to be described that way and you want another Transsexual placing that out there as a definition of the term.

AND YET - NOT one... ONE... "Transsexual" on this board, has called them out for those comments or argued against them... except me... the lowly "crossdresser", who knows nothing about Transsexual, yet can define the term accurately without having to revise it 3 or 4 different times. That is cowardice.

I understand loyalty, OK. I get it. I am fiercely loyal to my friends. But at some point, YOU ALL need to stop just backing up what your so-called ambassadors, "activists", and spokespeople say at the costs of reason and sanity. You are damaging your own brand if you continue in this hopeless circle.

I am not a hypocrite. I am in the middle of writing a paper that has a working title of, "Stupid Crossdressers And Their Silly Panty-Snatching Games Must Stop". The article is completely and utterly damning, and pulls no punches about the damage I believe the CD/TV communities have done towards the Transgender spectrums.

So, I ask - You "Transsexual" activists and "experts" out there. When can I expect to see that paper written by one of you that says, "You cannot go on national radio and say, "Transsexual is - 'Oh, I have a dick!'". (After that interview, I looked, I scoured, I prayed that somewhere, someone would say something. Crickets.) Or, how about you call out two of your own who cannot even come to the same conclusion about a specific term, "Transsexual" and what it means. To date both are entirely hypocritical about what they SAY (define) and then their ACTIONS (modifiers placed on their definitions). Not one chirp from another Transsexual about that though.

ALL - and this is ALL - I am asking for... is BE PREPARED. These fights are coming. Transsexual IS the next "freedom" frontier. Of that I am certain.

You cannot continue to give people fodder for saying, "Oh, those silly Trannies are always at each others' throats. Just leave them be and let's move ahead with the Gay agenda instead."

You all will have ONE chance to get this right or else forever be written off as some sideline freakshow of humanity. ONE FUCKING CHANCE. The Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Community saw this, and unified... AND WON. You must do the same... period. If your spokespeople ultimately comes out looking like an idiot who cannot define the terms, cannot argue a reason for equal treatment logically, don't know if Transsexual equals woman, half-woman, or kinda man, and then tries to equate Transsexual with things like "slavery"... GOOD FUCKING LUCK making your case.

The chance to strike is now. The iron is hot and this is in thanks to the extremely hard groundwork the GLB communities have laid out. WE MUST FOLLOW and we must do it now or this opportunity will be lost forever... because it is one of the last ones of it's kind that needs to be addressed.

TO THE BOARD IN GENERAL
So, I bid you all adieu. Thank you for the time here.

Again, I'm not saying this out of self-pity or anything remotely so. It is simply a realization that I've spent far too much time arguing with a small and somewhat insignificant portion of the TG / TS spectrum here and I think my strengths lie elsewhere... tackling the academic world and its bigotry against the TG communities.

I will carry this forward and let my actions dictate whether I truly believe what I say or not, and whether I have the best interests of the TG/TS community at heart or not, with or without the "help" and "consent" of the TS porn community and its supposed spokespeople. I am deadly serious about bringing a message of unification throughout the TG community in any way I can. I imagine I'll make enemies and friends along the way... just as you do when you take a stand in any portion of your life and challenge people on their belief systems. I am doing something... and I'll take that any day of the week over sitting on my ass.

I wish EVERYONE here the best in life and a furthering of your joy, peace, and prosperity. Good-bye and if any of you actually has an interest in what I'm doing, you can find me on my non-porn blog, Krissy4uTalk and Transformation Online (if they pass for publication by the Editor of course), where I will be posting the majority of the pieces I am writing.

I'm not depressed, suicidal, or even anything remotely close to it. Instead, I have come out of this latest debate / argument stronger, more determined, and with the realization that the TS porn industry is, largely, a lost cause and it was utterly foolish for me to expect any sort of support from it, despite my having supported it unequivocally these past years.

I will read no replies to this as I sorta tend to say "I'm out" and then get drawn back in by reading the reply. So this is it.

Again Thanks,
Sincerely,
The lowly confused Crossdresser,
Krissy

[iagodelgado]

This is utterly my last word on this board and on this topic. This is self-not pity for me, this is an understanding that I am not welcome here and my time and efforts are served better elsewhere, on my own with people who actually and truly understand the issues and are facing them with a seriousness that it deserves.

I don't care if you do or you don't read the following. I don't write it out of spite or out of anger or really out of anything but a sadness that all that has been taken away from this entire conversation is that "Krissy wants to turn the world into Crossdressers and she loves to argue". That is false (I do love debate though, clearly - but arguing is not the point of my debating) and it is sad to see, but also not entirely unexpected.

KELLY
Your first paragraph in your "letter" (diatribe?) is false, misleading, and quite frankly at this point, since I've explained it enough times, an outright lie. I have never stated that ALL Transsexuals were once Crossdressers just as I have never said that ALL Crossdressers will become or are Transsexuals. I have stated that the POSSIBILITY exists.

If you say that I have said that... that is just plain false and I would ask you to QUOTE EXACTLY where I have stated anything even remotely close to it. Again, you fail to distinguish between the CAN (possibility) and the ARE (a definitive statement). Isn't your husband a lawyer? Ask him if there is a difference between the two statements below:

Black people are all murders. (Crossdressers ARE NEVER Transsexual - your words)
Black people can be murders. (Crossdressers CAN BE Transsexual - my words)

The very fact that you would post this as your opening statement, without clarifying is, in and of itself - intellectually dishonest and if you were actually honest, you would issue an immediate retraction of your so-called "letter" and / or at the very least, clarify what I have said.

MSBHAVEN
You cling to this notion that you've somehow "earned" the title of "Transsexual" because of certain choices that you've made. In my opinion, this is a wrong (not morally... logicaly) point of view, and ultimately damaging because it is illogical, along the same arguments one could say that a Black person, having never experienced or gone through slavery in the first person, has no right to call themselves Black. It is a ludicrous claim.

You fail to see the difference also between marketing - which I do for my BUSINESS/SITE - and a separation of personal identification and belief.

MY LETTER TO THE "transsexual" SISTERHOOD
Look... You know what the biggest difference between you and I is? It isn't that I like to argue, or love reading what I've said, or anything else. It is that I am INTELLECTUALLY honest and am willing to say the things that need to be said to ALL communities and ALL persons. Most of you are not.

THESE ARE basically DIRECT QUOTES FROM Kelly and Msbhaven:

"Crossdressers ARE and CAN NEVER BE Transsexual." - Kelly Pierce
"Drag Queens CAN BE Transsexual." - Kelly Pierce
"Transsexualism is an incongruity between the brain and body." - Msbhaven

These statements are offensive and quite frankly, ludicrous... and every true, self-identified Transsexual should have a problem with all of the above, IF THOUGHT OUT LOGICALLY.

In Kelly's two examples she has basically made the argument that being Transsexual is NOT equal to being a woman (I've explained it - but think it through yourselves). Isn't that the whole fuckin' idea of what Trans-Activism is about? That Transsexuals want the same (or better) treatment as WOMEN?

In Msbhaven's case she has stated that Transsexual is an INCONGRUITY. Go look that word up and tell me if YOU want to be described that way and you want another Transsexual placing that out there as a definition of the term.

AND YET - NOT one... ONE... "Transsexual" on this board, has called them out for those comments or argued against them... except me... the lowly "crossdresser", who knows nothing about Transsexual, yet can define the term accurately without having to revise it 3 or 4 different times. That is cowardice.

I understand loyalty, OK. I get it. I am fiercely loyal to my friends. But at some point, YOU ALL need to stop just backing up what your so-called ambassadors, "activists", and spokespeople say at the costs of reason and sanity. You are damaging your own brand if you continue in this hopeless circle.

I am not a hypocrite. I am in the middle of writing a paper that has a working title of, "Stupid Crossdressers And Their Silly Panty-Snatching Games Must Stop". The article is completely and utterly damning, and pulls no punches about the damage I believe the CD/TV communities have done towards the Transgender spectrums.

So, I ask - You "Transsexual" activists and "experts" out there. When can I expect to see that paper written by one of you that says, "You cannot go on national radio and say, "Transsexual is - 'Oh, I have a dick!'". (After that interview, I looked, I scoured, I prayed that somewhere, someone would say something. Crickets.) Or, how about you call out two of your own who cannot even come to the same conclusion about a specific term, "Transsexual" and what it means. To date both are entirely hypocritical about what they SAY (define) and then their ACTIONS (modifiers placed on their definitions). Not one chirp from another Transsexual about that though.

ALL - and this is ALL - I am asking for... is BE PREPARED. These fights are coming. Transsexual IS the next "freedom" frontier. Of that I am certain.

You cannot continue to give people fodder for saying, "Oh, those silly Trannies are always at each others' throats. Just leave them be and let's move ahead with the Gay agenda instead."

You all will have ONE chance to get this right or else forever be written off as some sideline freakshow of humanity. ONE FUCKING CHANCE. The Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual Community saw this, and unified... AND WON. You must do the same... period. If your spokespeople ultimately comes out looking like an idiot who cannot define the terms, cannot argue a reason for equal treatment logically, don't know if Transsexual equals woman, half-woman, or kinda man, and then tries to equate Transsexual with things like "slavery"... GOOD FUCKING LUCK making your case.

The chance to strike is now. The iron is hot and this is in thanks to the extremely hard groundwork the GLB communities have laid out. WE MUST FOLLOW and we must do it now or this opportunity will be lost forever... because it is one of the last ones of it's kind that needs to be addressed.

TO THE BOARD IN GENERAL
So, I bid you all adieu. Thank you for the time here.

Again, I'm not saying this out of self-pity or anything remotely so. It is simply a realization that I've spent far too much time arguing with a small and somewhat insignificant portion of the TG / TS spectrum here and I think my strengths lie elsewhere... tackling the academic world and its bigotry against the TG communities.

I will carry this forward and let my actions dictate whether I truly believe what I say or not, and whether I have the best interests of the TG/TS community at heart or not, with or without the "help" and "consent" of the TS porn community and its supposed spokespeople. I am deadly serious about bringing a message of unification throughout the TG community in any way I can. I imagine I'll make enemies and friends along the way... just as you do when you take a stand in any portion of your life and challenge people on their belief systems. I am doing something... and I'll take that any day of the week over sitting on my ass.

I wish EVERYONE here the best in life and a furthering of your joy, peace, and prosperity. Good-bye and if any of you actually has an interest in what I'm doing, you can find me on my non-porn blog, Krissy4uTalk and Transformation Online (if they pass for publication by the Editor of course), where I will be posting the majority of the pieces I am writing.

I'm not depressed, suicidal, or even anything remotely close to it. Instead, I have come out of this latest debate / argument stronger, more determined, and with the realization that the TS porn industry is, largely, a lost cause and it was utterly foolish for me to expect any sort of support from it, despite my having supported it unequivocally these past years.

I will read no replies to this as I sorta tend to say "I'm out" and then get drawn back in by reading the reply. So this is it.

Again Thanks,
Sincerely,
The lowly confused Crossdresser,
Krissy

Since you like quotes, I have posted one vast, unnecessary quote for you, directly above my thoughts.

I have read many times in this thread that you claimed it was your last comment. That's part of the reason I summarised your views in a way you objected to. I thought you had left the thread behind, so there was no point in acting according to the rules of debate you prefer to impose.

Kelly and MsBhaven have both made errors of logic and errors with English word meanings. So what? This is not an exercise in either logic or the details of English language. Put simply, if I was part of a vote to decide who is best placed to influence the world about accepting TS people on an equal basis, I'd vote for Kelly or MsBhaven before I would vote for you.

And this has nothing to do with whether you are a cross-dresser or transsexual. You claim to have made the steps whereby, according to my earlier post, if such evidence were to be presented to me, I would be 100% supportive of your rights as a person who also happened to be transsexual. (This is not me asking you to provide proof, as there is no reason to do so. I am simply saying that if independent, professional evidence was provided, then I'd be happy to go into battle for you in real life.)

Here's where I have the real problems.

In an early post, you positioned yourself as a spokesperson for the movement. I'm not happy with this.

Later, you said it was imperative that people under the transgender umbrella had to unite if a difference was to be made. I'm very uncomfortable with this.

You got history wrong. You said TS folks had adopted a stance in the past where they were better than others. This is just wrong. It actually happens to be minor, because the important part is the present and the future, while the past is of a lesser importance and influence.

I'm a generation older than you. And I'm writing the past on HungDevils. If you want to find out how things really, go to HD and see. (All supported by links to independent evidence.)

Here's where it gets crunchy. "one chance"? "ONE FUCKING CHANCE"? Gaining transsexual people equal rights has been around since before I was born. Step by step. Bit by bit. This process will continue long after I am dust.

You started off with a premise that transsexuals and cross-dressers should unite for the strength behind numbers. A debate kicked off and frankly, I cannot remember in the who-hah whether you were insisting this movement should include drag queens or not. So I won't try to comment on whether it is the transgender umbrella you think should unite, or just these two components of it.

You put yourself up as the head of this movement. This might well be for others, but it is not for me.

And here's why. You decided that this movement would be an exercise in logic. I can't buy this, even though I am close to 100% driven by logic.

You explained that the academics would tear apart any logical weaknesses. HELLO. There are 3 main 'academic' movements in N America today. #1 Transsexualism is a natural phenomenon, and as doctors we should do what the patient wishes (as long as medicine approves) to hep the patient. #2 Transsexuals are people who have something akin to a disorder. As in, they don't like their leg, so they want me to cut it off. (Kelly has referred to this condition more than once.) Or they are homosexuals, who would be better off just accepting that they are homosexuals. #3. Transsexuals are just deviant men who yet again want to occupy the place in life that should be reserved for women.

You positioned yourself as the person to take on the academics. Good luck to you on that one. I will definitely be dead before you succeed in this task.

For me, the ultimate turning point is simple. It is not about logic, because all the scientific evidence says mtf TS people have a part of the brain concerning self-identity that is closer to female than it is to male. That's logic, in multiple studies, in black and white. I read the evidence, I evaluate, and that is key to my view of people who happen to be TS.

But after that, it becomes a matter of what matters most. Logic v Emotion? Heart v Mind? Whilst personally I like mind, the world requires heart.

My 'evidence' will persuade almost no-one. Nor will yours. Someone like Kelly or MsBehavin will have more emotional clout than I ever had in my life.

If this really is this your departure, then I have some pleasant and unpleasant things to say.

Unpleasant. If you want to engage with academia on this topic, leaving HA is wise. Very wise. But being involved with Transformation Magazine is unwise. I have no issue with Transformation Magazine, but academic it is not. Do Hanna a favour, and leave her as she puts the T in Transformation for 20 years.

Pleasant. You have views that I don't agree with, but there are lots of people whose views I do not agree with, so what? Whether you leave HA or not, as one human being to another my message is somewhat out off Star Trek. "Live long and prosper."

[Crossover1]

This is a tremendously fatiguing topic which actually has a simple antidote: Forget about language and treat people with respect in whatever way makes them happy. Language is a trap. Every single marginalized group goes through a politically correct phase around language that independent-minded people find annoying and tiresome.

Not to mention, as this thread demonstrates, ask 1000 trans people how they feel about what defines them, and watch the discrimination-from-another-motha' flow. It strains the very definition of "definition" when everybody is lumped in the same category, so everybody carves out their individualized idea of what makes them them. This invariably leads to "inside" and "outside" when we're all humans struggling with all kinds of forms of definition.

Some trans women go on and on about trans being ultimately being about "the mind of a woman", but then those same women get OBSESSED with their womanly body. Hmmmm.

Some trans women want men to love them for who they are, and then get disappointed when they want to suck their dicks because they are trying to love them "as they are." Oh you mean love me "where I'm going"? Oh geez, sorry, I was trying to accept you AS YOU ARE.

Who's accepting who? So very confusing.

Yada yada yada.

Blah blah blah.

Toot toot toot.

Language just gets in the way. Acceptance is hard work. Saying the right words to comfort people is easy.