The FAST Approaching Gun Ban

[notdrunk]

I drive places I could not plausibly walk. Driving enables me to see my relatives and aging parents. There is a danger inherent in driving but we accept the fact that modern life is impracticable without it.

On the other hand guns have the sole function of causing harm. When used for their intended purpose they maim and kill. Their utility is limited to the rarest of circumstances and is greatly outweighed by the destruction they wreak. I can't imagine what would compel you to compare modern transportation to devices whose utility can only be defined in terms of how well they threaten, maim, or kill.

My point again is stop blowing gun violence out of proportion.

Gun ownership is a right that can't simply be taking away. With this right, there comes risks. These risks can be mitigated through actions by the government through legislation. However, there wouldn't be a de jure ban or de facto ban. You take away this right, other rights are fair game.

[Prospero]

Pathetic and ludicrous comparisons between cars and guns are utterly pointless as Notdrunk surely knows. Owning an automatic weapon has really only one purpose - and the end result if used is death.

So Sandy point and a gig pileup on the freeway are the same?

[notdrunk]

Pathetic and ludicrous comparisons between cars and guns are utterly pointless as Notdrunk surely knows. Owning an automatic weapon has really only one purpose - and the end result if used is death.

So Sandy point and a gig pileup on the freeway are the same?

Again, I am saying people are blowing gun violence out of proportion. I objected to the use of slaughter. I pointed to an activity that has killed and injured more people than firearms in the United States every year. However, do people think of slaughter on road? No.

A lot of people do see ownership of a firearm as a benefit with the benefits outweighing the risks. There are enough firearms in this country to almost arm everybody. Yet, the streets of the US aren't the streets of the Mogadishu.

[Prospero]

And yet the lawlessness we see in Nevada right now - with an armed militia defending a racist thief - suggests that serious gun violence of an organised kind can and does happen, Notdunk. Or are you fine with right wing militias confronting the Government?

You are vocal in defending the right of Americans to bear arms.

Now what do you feel if instead of right wing peope, like the militias deciding to confront the government, it was American citizens who adhere to extreme radical islamic beleifs and decided to confront the lawmen of Nevada - or new york, or California or wherever. Adherents of the same creed as the Jihadists who flew planes into the World Trade Centre. Are you happy with those who also question the right of the US government to exist as do the folks in Necada to have the sort of deadly arsenals which ordinary american folk can own. And if they take issue over a law of the land, to line up and confront the Government with semi automatic weapons etc....

Maybe you are okay with people armed with guns who are strongly anti-abortion to threaten doctors?

And are you saying that the killing of all those children at Sandy Point was not a slaughter? C'mon now Notdrunk... get real. or do you not care - and see them as necessary sacrifices in defence of the right to be armed to the teeth. Do you seriously equate a motor accident with murder?

[broncofan]

However, do people think of slaughter on road? No.

One reason for the difference is the word you chose to object to. People think of slaughter as an intentional act. People slaughter animals with knives, and humans are slaughtered in a more figurative sense with weapons. It's a stretch to say someone hitting a pothole and swerving into another car has slaughtered someone.

I think we should think of all public health problems in basically the same way. What harm are we preventing and how much harm can we prevent? What utility does the thing we are regulating have? How much do the regulations of that activity diminish its utility? How does that compare to the harm foregone?

[broncofan]

Another thing to point out is that guns have not been singled out for harsh treatment but have been treated like a sacred cow. We are not advocating that guns be given special scrutiny because when they cause death those deaths are conspicuous. Instead, guns should be subject to the same analysis as any other article or activity that could be regulated.

In terms of their utility, I also think we can be generous in designating the value they have to some people. Much of that value is psychic, but they can protect people's homes and give them less of a sense of helplessness against potential tyranny. But we also have to assign reasonable probabilities for these values and this cuts against their widespread distribution.

Finally, they can be regulated without being outlawed. For cars, we have a department of transportation to monitor risks and propose safety measures. For drugs we have the FDA that does the same thing and at great expense. We should put in the same effort when it comes to gun safety. What kinds of guns? Who should own them? What sorts of records of ownership should we keep? Unbiased and regulated data collection when guns are involved in injury? What about licensure? Again, there are a lot of people who know better the ways in which guns can be regulated; the important thing is that they not be treated like sacred articles.

[notdrunk]

And yet the lawlessness we see in Nevada right now - with an armed militia defending a racist thief - suggests that serious gun violence of an organised kind can and does happen, Notdunk. Or are you fine with right wing militias confronting the Government?

You are vocal in defending the right of Americans to bear arms.

Now what do you feel if instead of right wing peope, like the militias deciding to confront the government, it was American citizens who adhere to extreme radical islamic beleifs and decided to confront the lawmen of Nevada - or new york, or California or wherever. Adherents of the same creed as the Jihadists who flew planes into the World Trade Centre. Are you happy with those who also question the right of the US government to exist as do the folks in Necada to have the sort of deadly arsenals which ordinary american folk can own. And if they take issue over a law of the land, to line up and confront the Government with semi automatic weapons etc....

Maybe you are okay with people armed with guns who are strongly anti-abortion to threaten doctors?

And are you saying that the killing of all those children at Sandy Point was not a slaughter? C'mon now Notdrunk... get real. or do you not care - and see them as necessary sacrifices in defence of the right to be armed to the teeth. Do you seriously equate a motor accident with murder?


I have no problems if they aren't violating the law. If you didn't know the FBI are going after the people in Nevada that were seen pointing weapons at LEOs. I don't have an issue with them going after those people that violated the law. Anyway, most people knew that those militia people were trying to bait LEOs into starting stuff first. Would I feel sorry for those militia people if one of them decided to shoot at those LEOs? Nope, they get whatever comes towards them.

Yes, it was a slaughter at Sandy Hook; however, I don't believe in all the knee-jerk reactions.

[trish]

If a man brought a firearm to a political discussion that was bound to be heated, I would regard it as an act of intimidation and would consequently seriously doubt his rationality and self-control. I would definitely regard him as a threat to my life and a threat to the lives of those present. Should I stand my ground and kill him?

[notdrunk]

If a man brought a firearm to a political discussion that was bound to be heated, I would regard it as an act of intimidation and would consequently seriously doubt his rationality and self-control. I would definitely regard him as a threat to my life and a threat to the lives of those present. Should I stand my ground and kill him?

No, it depends on his actions. The person might believe in open carry.

[trish]

Belief is an action?

SYG seems to depend on whether the shooter "feels" threatened. A man who brings a gun gun to a heated argument is making no other point than, "Disagree with me at your own peril." SYG says you can shoot him, right?

[martin48]

Here are some more thoughts - though, I sadly think many will not read them.

OK - a constitutional clause that permits the keeping of arms, but why allow almost anyone to purchase machine guns? How many unarmed teenagers do you wish to kill at one time? If the "right" is assist in preventing tyranny by an elected government, why stop at machine guns, surely citizens need to ability to match the power of the government -weapons of mass destruction.



In answer to the question, do European nations have a similar U.S. 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms including an individual and collective right ? The summary answer is NO. However, the English Bill of Rights of 1689, which predates our Bill of Rights by 100 years, codified an ancient self-protection right with the words, “ … subjects who are Protestants may have arms for their defense suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law.” This gave birth to the English common law right to keep and bear arms for self-defense, but the vague wording is a far cry from the absolute wording of our 2nd Amendment: “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
In Britain, the possession of most types of arms are strictly controlled for the common good. Criminals, children, and the mentally ill are not allowed to be armed. The UK Firearms Act of 1968 sets rigid requirements for a firearms certificate. A concept of compulsory security for rifles and shotguns is in effect and extends to shotguns. Centre-fire self-loading and pump action rifles are banned as well as automatic weapons. Gun rights and strict rules have culturally evolved to a point where today England has one of the lowest gun ownership levels and gun homicide rates in the world. Further, this has not resulted in high non-gun homicides or violent crime culture as purist anti-gun control believers like to say.
This low gun access approach works for England but probably would never work for the U.S. Our nation is totally saturated in a gun culture – including quasi machine guns that can shoot 30-50-100 bullets in seconds. We are a country where an individual can go into a gun show and walk out with a semi-automatic weapon and no background check … where insane people have easy access to military style weapons! Lanza used three of four semi-automatic weapons belonging to his mother, all easily accessible. This potential from ever more efficiently designed arms to murder many people rapidly makes the case for re-defining U.S. gun law all the more urgent.
Switzerland also has no constitutional guarantee of an individual’s right to bear arms. The national legislature could ban gun ownership anytime. But today Switzerland is a heavily armed nation. This reflects a centuries old Swiss culture to have arms to resist possible invaders or despotic tyrants, like Hitler in WWII. The country’s high gun ownership level comes with a very low gun homicide rate vs. the U.S. All males at 18 join the military and can take their military assault weapon home with them when they leave. Thus, up to 500,000 military assault weapons are estimated to be in Swiss households today. These weapons must be locked up and ammunition is kept in central arsenals. The government supplies bullets for shooting festivals. Canton police may issue special permits for civilians to own assault rifles – typically as licensed collectors—and such weapons may not be fired in full automatic mode. The country hosts some of the largest rifle shooting events in the world. While gun ownership laws have tightened upon handguns and non-military weapons, it is still reasonably easy to get a hand gun. But, it is illegal to carry guns in public.
As stated earlier, social attitudes and discipline concerning guns play a major role in Europe. The Swiss and Norwegian easier gun access cultures illustrate that the ability to possess arms is not necessarily a direct causal link to a greater gun homicide or crime rate. This is true in an opposite way for England where a much more difficult access to guns does not ipso facto translate into much higher levels of non-gun homicides or crime rates as some pro-gun enthusiasts suggest.
Spain enforces strict controls over firearms. The constitution clearly states: “The State shall have exclusive competence over … the regime for the production, trading, holding, and use of weapons.” In Finland, citizens must have a valid reason for a gun license such as hunting, recreation, or gun exhibitions. An amendment to the 1997 Scotland Firearms Act banned private possession of all modern pistols, even for competitive sporting purposes. Small bore rifles are not limited. Many types of rifles, shotguns, and black powder pistols and long arms may be privately owned. Luxembourg has a complete ban on guns. In the Netherlands, assault rifles, silencers, and short-barreled shotguns as well as any kind of high capacity magazine are banned for civilian possession unless authorized by the Minister of Justice.
Our neighbor, Canada, has no constitutional right to bear arms. Gun ownership is strictly regulated and certain gun models are prohibited by the Firearms Act. Canada’s crime rate is lower than that of the U.S.
Conclusion
Unlike America, the European individual right to bear and keep arms is NOT entrenched in constitutional law. The U.S. gun culture inherited from England and Switzerland of protecting ourselves against tyrannical government was expanded on by Thomas Jefferson with his remarks:
“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes … Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed may be attached with greater confidence than the armed man.” (Thomas Jefferson, Common Place Book , 1774-1776 (quoting from “On Crimes and Punishment” by criminologist Cesare Beccaria 1764).
It should not be surprising that the right to bear arms has remained closely and jealously guarded in America. Our constitution has left the 50 states free to regulate the private possession of weapons in whatever way deemed appropriate to them. Today 43 states have some kind of right to bear arms provisions which are far more relevant to proposed state and local gun controls than the 2nd Amendment. However, in the McDonald v. City of Chicago case, the U.S. Supreme Court holds that the 2nd Amendment applies to the states, potentially weakening state and local gun control laws.
The fundamental purposes of the 2nd Amendment have come to represent: (a) the individual right to protect oneself against other individuals and (b) the collective right to protect oneself against a tyrannical government. Both U.S. 2nd Amendment protections are seen to be rather anachronistic by European standards for a number of reasons. BUT, these rights are steadfast, virtual “emotional” realities for many Americans. In Europe, having guns – except for hunting and shooting festivals and except for well-controlled Swiss assault weapons as a retired civilian-militia protection against invaders – is simply NOT built into the psyche of Europeans who in general have little interest in nor see the necessity of owning guns as a defense against criminals or their governments.
The challenge for America is where to draw the line between the rightful, normal gun means to defend oneself as opposed to the use of modern multi-murderous weaponry and magazines. U.S. anti-gun regulation paranoia abounds in the thought than any restriction is the first step to the total banning of guns, ultimately making citizens more unsafe against criminals who will never give up guns. This is further supported by NRA’s false claim that there is no statistical evidence the 1994-2004 semi-automatic assault gun ban had a measureable effect in reducing violent wide-scale shootings.
Complete gun control in America is never going to happen given the 2nd Amendment and fact there are too many guns already out there. We have created a climate of gun protection and resort to gun violence by criminals and non-criminals (e.g., crimes of passion) that is deeply cultural and self-perpetuating… that is leap years worse and ingrained than in Europe and Canada by any statistical measure.




Frank Thomas
The Netherlands
December 30, 2012

[broncofan]

Interesting cross-cultural comparison. Some good points. Sadly some people would read this and take Switzerland as an example to say: if they don't have a high murder rate, it shows that guns alone don't cause a high murder rate. Yet, the more salient interpretation might be that many factors contribute to a murder rate, but guns increase that rate within any given society (to a varying degree).

A couple of additional thoughts:

-The most generous view of the protection against tyranny argument goes like this I think (I don't know why I'm in such a generous mood). Maybe if you have certain weapons you cannot match the artillery of your country's military, but you make it so their persecution of you is not cost-free. They know that they will be subject to guerilla warfare, or if they round people up for internment camps that they are liable to lose their storm-troopers in the process. It's all very apocalyptic I know and does reflect a deep-seated mistrust of government. But that is the line of thinking. To be honest if our government were rounding people up for labor camps I'd probably prefer to become a guerilla fighter than hand myself over willingly but I'd rather not live my life as though that's a likely possibility.

-The other thing is that a correlate of gun ownership in our country seems to be a mistrust of other people and a mistrust of government. You could almost set up a regression equation mapping it. The fact that the right is anachronistic might also reflect an unhealthy nostalgia some gun-owners have. In other cultures, gun ownership might be more ceremonial or based on entry into the military, but for us it's a way of expressing dissatisfaction and alienation.

-I am also glad that he interpreted the UK murder rates the way we have been. I know UK does not have the same culture or history as we do but the statistics do indicate that lower rate of gun homicide does not translate into a similar increase in deaths by other means. It goes against logic to think that it would.

[notdrunk]

Belief is an action?

SYG seems to depend on whether the shooter "feels" threatened. A man who brings a gun gun to a heated argument is making no other point than, "Disagree with me at your own peril." SYG says you can shoot him, right?

Nope, that is not how SYG work.

[trish]

SYG works?! It's killed more people than it saved.

[martin48]

I think this is true. It's the mistrust of government by a sizable fraction of the US that amazes me. Sure, I don't like the Tories and UKIP are a load of loonies; but in the States there seems to be a deep-seated hatred of government. Not healthy






-The other thing is that a correlate of gun ownership in our country seems to be a mistrust of other people and a mistrust of government. You could almost set up a regression equation mapping it. The fact that the right is anachronistic might also reflect an unhealthy nostalgia some gun-owners have. In other cultures, gun ownership might be more ceremonial or based on entry into the military, but for us it's a way of expressing dissatisfaction and alienation.

[buttslinger]

The People have spoken. People vote with their wallets, and with millions of dollars of gun sales, Congress is on recess. I don't have more guns than books, but I don't have a small Law Library on my shelves, either.
The last approval rating of Congress is something like 19%
I think when they poll the approval rate of Hitler it always comes in at like 15%
Common sense, the Police, even the people want tighter restrictions on the obvious loopholes in gun sales, but the Republicans are too busy talking about Obamacare and Benghazi. I haven't seen an article about gun reform in the newspaper for weeks. It's an ice cold topic.
Don't expect Hillary to propose giving little boys Princess Outfits and Tiaras for Christmas, either. A Woman running for President is going to do everything She can to show that her Opinions are not Estrogen-laden.
Embrace the Chaos. Strap on a pair of Colt Peacemakers, Pard. Cause in the USA, Guns are here to STAY.

[trish]

I haven't seen an article about gun reform in the newspaper for weeks. It's an ice cold topic. This one's from today's paper of record. http://nyti.ms/1jaVEBT


A Woman running for President is going to do everything She can to show that her Opinions are not Estrogen-laden. Not much of a problem for a post menopausal candidate. "...anybody can have a gun, anywhere, anytime."____Hillary Rodham Clinton (April 30 2014....13 days ago... http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/clinton-raise-money-margolies-campaign-23600038) I'm hoping to vote for Elizabeth Warren. Speaking of estrogen vs testosterone you should take a look at the attack ads John Oliver designed... http://www.mediaite.com/tv/you-need-to-watch-john-olivers-hilariously-raunchy-take-on-political-ads/

[AlexisDVyne]

I think this is true. It's the mistrust of government by a sizable fraction of the US that amazes me. Sure, I don't like the Tories and UKIP are a load of loonies; but in the States there seems to be a deep-seated hatred of government. Not healthy

Mistrust of the government.. hmm..

Well.. consider the USA goverment is made up 99.99% people that are well to do and never had to actually work for a living.. Born silver spoon in mouth.. went to yale, havard.. yadayada..

These aren't regular people.. they have no concept of being poor.. they don't have any clue to be under the pressure of the next paycheck being their last and loosing their car, their home, their family..

They are cleptocrats.. in league with the Banksters and Corpirates that try to run the world.. #1 USA export.. weapons..

The only way to get them out and put real people in is by revolution..

Why do you think these people spend 3 million on advertising their campaign for a position that pays $125k a year?? It's because they're gonna fuck you for 10 million while they're in office..

The global financial picture is changing fast.. next year China will be at par with the USA for GDP.. the year after they will leave the USA in the dust as they become the biggest and richest nation in the world for the next 40 years..

The USA has a way out.. the easy way to maintain control is destabilize the whole world, anarchy, global unrest.. WW3..

Option #2 Revolution..

I'm just worried about the 50 million USA refugees that will flood Canada..

I hope americans wake up some time soon and realized they're being royally fucked over bareback.. and that the rest of the world is also getting fucked over and being forced to feltch the cum out of the asshole of the USA..

[trish]

The only way to get them out and put real people in is by revolution..
Can you guarantee revolution won't bring real tyranny instead of the pretend tyranny gun nuts are always fantasizing and whining about? Instead try increasing the size of the electorate; i.e. campaign with reasoned argument and vote. If you can succeed in getting a majority of eligible citizens to vote (rather than suppressing the vote), then I'll believe that maybe that revolution isn't just a fleck of gunpowder in your eye.

[buttslinger]

just a fleck of gunpowder in your eye.

OK, Trish, You were right when you said that gun ownership has to REVERSE to significantly reduce gun violence and death. When do you expect sweeping gun reform to be a reality and not a dream? Over.

[maxpower]

I'm hoping to vote for Elizabeth Warren.


So am I. Clinton vs Jeb Bush would be like the choice between these two.

[AlexisDVyne]

Can you guarantee revolution won't bring real tyranny instead of the pretend tyranny gun nuts are always fantasizing and whining about? Instead try increasing the size of the electorate; i.e. campaign with reasoned argument and vote. If you can succeed in getting a majority of eligible citizens to vote (rather than suppressing the vote), then I'll believe that maybe that revolution isn't just a fleck of gunpowder in your eye.

Revolutions can happen in many ways..

No I don't want the gun toting whackos in office..

Like I said.. 10's or 100's of millions using social media.. gotta be organized tho..

The current fascist like regime that rules the USSA won't go out without a multi-trillion dollar fight tho and it is impossible for the average american to make a difference..

Wall Street will destroy anyone who tries to get them out of the White House..

Here in Canada our leaders are just whitehouse puppets since the 70's when Nixon used economic blackmail to make the Canadian government complicit to their will..

[Prospero]

Nice people with nice habits....the gun toting NRA thugs who threaten women

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-bullying-open-carry-women-moms-texas

[trish]

Spitting, Stalking, Rape Threatening, Racist, Cowardly, Gun-Fetishist Fuck-holes make me want to puke. They should stand in a circle, stroke their barren barrels and shoot themselves.

[robertlouis]

Further proof, as if it were really necessary, that too large a part of the US population is certifiably mad. The dicks are unbelievable.

And the comments below are just as worrying.

Any of the usual suspects care to defend this?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/chipotle-guns-open-carry-texas

[martin48]

Here's a recent opinion piece.



The United States of America died on April 2, 2014. It expired in a silence that was earsplitting. It did not disappear because of an attack from another country. It did not end at the hand of terrorists. It self-destructed in a form of suicide predicted by its founders, and executed by its own government.



A few quotes from our founding fathers, and our greatest president:
"Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide."
John Adams



"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."
Thomas Jefferson




"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln



What was the cause of our beloved country's death? Greed. It was hidden behind organizations with titles such as "Citizens United," and "Citizens for Prosperity." What they actually are composed of are lobbyists representing the one percent of America; its wealthiest citizens.



The Supreme Court of the United States was established as the third of the check and balance systems to insure that none of the three would be able to exercise dictatorial power. It was not intended to be controlled by a political party. Today, 4/2/2014, that all changed, and democracy died a quiet but irreversible death.



In a partisan vote of five to four, Republican controlled justices decreed that individuals can contribute as much money as they wish to a political party. In other words, the wealthy can buy elections, and they alone will decide who governs our country.



Unfortunately men and women of my age group who have been involved and are knowledgeable regarding the political structure of our country have foreseen this as a definite possibility. The emergence and growing power of lobbies has changed the effectiveness of our government to make decisions which affect all of the nation's people. Corruption is the norm, and morality does not exist in our Nation's Capital.



From this day forward, votes have no meaning in elections. Because most voters believe the blatant lies they see on television ads, they will vote for the person who most effectively ministers negative and fallacious commercials. Democracy no longer exists. Money and money alone will decide who wins elections.



The Supreme Court has become a tool of the Republican Party, and therefore the wealthiest one percent in our nation. I hate to be this negative, but I see no hope for the working class. Minimum wage will never be raised. Corporations will continue to make outrageous profits, while those who work for them live in poverty with minimal or no benefits.
Our founding fathers had a wonderful idea. Now they see its failure, as they predicted. America is no longer the greatest nation in the world. It's not even in the top twenty five.



James Turnage

[notdrunk]

Further proof, as if it were really necessary, that too large a part of the US population is certifiably mad. The dicks are unbelievable.

And the comments below are just as worrying.

Any of the usual suspects care to defend this?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/chipotle-guns-open-carry-texas


There is a right way to do something, there is a wrong to do something. They chose poorly in excising their right under the law. I like to think elements of OCT fall into the same category as Code Pink with their style of protesting; however, they don't get arrested as much.

[buttslinger]

We studied American History in the sixth grade, so all Americans start with the PG-13 rating facts, and really, unless you're a History Buff or something, or hang out with people that enjoy talking about that stuff, that's where it ends. Our Founding Fathers, you could probably find heavier Law Minds at a good first year University. Franklin was a perv, Jefferson knocked up his Slavegirl, Washington owed London Banks some heavy coin he defaulted on. So these guys didn't have a Crystal Ball, basically they just didn't want to pay King George taxes.
But the time and the place was right, a brand new continent, lots of brand new ideas and opportunities. However in reality it wasn't til a hundred years ago that we even got all our 48 States on the Flag.
Same old story: people under certain unique circumstances.
I am not sure how much of America is actually controlled by the evil ONE PERCENT, If they all belong to the Skull and Bones Club, or rig the Stock Market. Maybe fucking up the Government is all you need to do to stay on top. I know that For, of, and By the People is a lot of that PG-13 stuff, nobody looks of for the little guy and goes unpunished.

Guns and Freedom are a dangerous mix. You can own a gun before the age of consent, before you can vote, before you can drink a beer. (If Daddy springs for it)
Thank you, thank you very much.
American LAW is restricted by logic, but the American Mindset is to the Moon.

[NYBURBS]

Further proof, as if it were really necessary, that too large a part of the US population is certifiably mad. The dicks are unbelievable.

And the comments below are just as worrying.

Any of the usual suspects care to defend this?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/chipotle-guns-open-carry-texas

Actually, the head of Moms Demand Action strikes me as a bit of a loon and histrionics queen, too. Each side in this debate has its far fringes.

Regardless of what side you sit on, this debate won't be settled until at least the 2014 mid-terms and more likely the 2016 presidential elections. There are several justices that are unlikely to last past the next president, and who gets to appoint their successor will likely determine how broadly the second amendment is interpreted.

[NYBURBS]

There is a right way to do something, there is a wrong to do something. They chose poorly in excising their right under the law. I like to think elements of OCT fall into the same category as Code Pink with their style of protesting; however, they don't get arrested as much.

I would tend to agree that openly carrying rifles and pistols into most public places is not the best way to go about things. On the other hand, if people are really so frightened of the open display of a weapon then states should ease the restrictions they have on obtaining concealed carry permits.

I believe much of this goes back to the mid-1800s when states began to forbid concealed carry and left only the option for openly carried firearms.

[notdrunk]

I would tend to agree that openly carrying rifles and pistols into most public places is not the best way to go about things. On the other hand, if people are really so frightened of the open display of a weapon then states should ease the restrictions they have on obtaining concealed carry permits.

I believe much of this goes back to the mid-1800s when states began to forbid concealed carry and left only the option for openly carried firearms.

I believe the main goal of OCT is to get the legalization of open carry pistols in Texas. As well, there was an incident in which an individual was arrested for open carrying a rifle that led to unnecessary drama between the police and the individual. So, there is an educational aspect to their protesting too.

I would be shock if Texas restricted instead of loosen their gun laws.

[Prospero]

It would be great pleasure if they DID restrict weapons but not much chance.

When it come to the law challenging those who openly carry the law must take precedence. Why would some sick gun obsessed morons feel carrying deadly weapons around was nececessary.

[Stavros]

"I heard the bullets whistle, and believe me, there is something charming in the sound"...
and the source of the quote is...

[Prospero]

George Washington?

[Stavros]

Indeed -but in what context?

[martin48]

Being from the other side of the pond, I have some difficulty with the abbreviations - OCT, for example.

So it's about being able to carry openly in public your complete range of assault rifles, automatic weapons, etc. It seems to me that most of the nerds who demand their rights to do this are attempting to make up for other shortcomings in their personality and the relative size of some of their body parts (big bellies, small cocks).

Here's thought. Let them openly show off their weapons but make them expose their tiny cocks in public as well. We might well have a laugh while feeling threatened.

[trish]

Except for those whose job requires it (e.g. military, police etc.) every single man who carries in public (openly or furtively) knows himself to be deeply unsatisfied and personally deficient. Many will deny it vociferously, but they are the one's most inextricably caught up in their own inadequacies and most feel the need to express in public that it is not so. If their collective attitude wasn't such a hazard to public health, I'd feel sorry for them.

[trish]

Man (using the word loosely)...is rejected by woman, then goes on a Second Amendment rampage to compensate for his inadequacies. Her fault, right? Couldn't be that the gun culture in this nation has gone totally bonkers.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/24/shooting-california-santa-barbara/9532405/

Of course nothing will happen here. Not when 20 second graders are murdered by a crazed gunman along with 6 adults and Congress is so obsessed with their obstructionist agenda they refuse to pass one single jot of firearm regulation. They call this a Christian nation. Yeah, right. Suffer the little children.

[buttslinger]

It's Politically Correct to blame the toothless old redneck for the Nation's gun woes, but don't forget about the teen gangstas in the hood that account for half of the fatalities, including kids playing, and even people sleeping in bed, these ghetto gunslingers aren't very good shots. And when they do kill somebody, there is a "don't snitch" policy, which is every bit as stupid as inbred morons eating at Dennys with hunting rifles.

Trish said it, the only real solution is to get rid of the guns somehow. Just like cigarettes are still completely legal now, they cost 5 bucks a pack. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[NYBURBS]

Man (using the word loosely)...is rejected by woman, then goes on a Second Amendment rampage to compensate for his inadequacies. Her fault, right? Couldn't be that the gun culture in this nation has gone totally bonkers.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/24/shooting-california-santa-barbara/9532405/

Of course nothing will happen here. Not when 20 second graders are murdered by a crazed gunman along with 6 adults and Congress is so obsessed with their obstructionist agenda they refuse to pass one single jot of firearm regulation. They call this a Christian nation. Yeah, right. Suffer the little children.

The guy was a loon toon, too bad there weren't armed citizens around to put a bullet in his head:

LiveLeak.com - Pyscho Virgin Elliot Rodger Driving his Car a Few Days Before his Killing Spree (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d53_1400928980)
LiveLeak.com - Six Dead in Isla Vista Shootings - Alleged Killers Video Threat (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4fd_1400921453)

[broncofan]

The guy was a loon toon, too bad there weren't armed citizens around to put a bullet in his head:

Too bad there never seem to be. If everyone were carrying all the time, and always had the safety of their guns off, and were really good marksman, and always had the guns accessible enough to pull them out this sort of thing wouldn't happen. If there's a country like that I want to live there. I bet that country would also have a great culture and higher education system;).

[NYBURBS]

Too bad there never seem to be. If everyone were carrying all the time, and always had the safety of their guns off, and were really good marksman, and always had the guns accessible enough to pull them out this sort of thing wouldn't happen. If there's a country like that I want to live there. I bet that country would also have a great culture and higher education system;).

Well, it's unlikely to happen in a state that up until recently was a 'may issue' jurisdiction that almost never 'did' issue permits to people. Btw, many handguns don't have a safety in the way you're thinking, other than the pressure required to pull the trigger. Either way, calling 911 and waiting for the cops to show up obviously didn't help a bunch of people here avoid getting killed or wounded.

[broncofan]

Well, it's unlikely to happen in a state that up until recently was a 'may issue' jurisdiction that almost never 'did' issue permits to people. Btw, many handguns don't have a safety in the way you're thinking, other than the pressure required to pull the trigger. Either way, calling 911 and waiting for the cops to show up obviously didn't help a bunch of people here avoid getting killed or wounded.
If I were in the middle of a shooting spree I'd prefer to have a gun loaded and ready (whatever that involves). I just mean nobody's expecting it. Think of how many people you've walked by in public in the last year let alone decade. Nobody can plan for every contingency. Even if you had the gun in your car, you might not have access to it when you need it.

I think for each individual we're talking about an alignment of the planets where carrying the gun would matter. You could do everything right and then be the one who gets shot from behind. You could do everything right and never come close to being in the vicinity of a shooting spree.

And think about the 10% of people (90% of statistics are made up) who have bad tempers. Who wouldn't pull a gun and start shooting when they're angry, but who might brandish it, or refer to it. And the chance they do it in the presence of someone else similarly disposed and armed...can you imagine how many "self-defense" cases we'd have?

[NYBURBS]

If I were in the middle of a shooting spree I'd prefer to have a gun loaded and ready (whatever that involves). I just mean nobody's expecting it. Think of how many people you've walked by in public in the last year let alone decade. Nobody can plan for every contingency. Even if you had the gun in your car, you might not have access to it when you need it.

I think for each individual we're talking about an alignment of the planets where carrying the gun would matter. You could do everything right and then be the one who gets shot from behind. You could do everything right and never come close to being in the vicinity of a shooting spree.

And think about the 10% of people (90% of statistics are made up) who have bad tempers. Who wouldn't pull a gun and start shooting when they're angry, but who might brandish it, or refer to it. And the chance they do it in the presence of someone else similarly disposed and armed...can you imagine how many "self-defense" cases we'd have?

I know you're a bright guy, and a sensible person, so please don't take this as a slight, but I think you may be ignorant as to how firearms work and are typically carried. Most people with a concealed carry permit have the weapon on their person, not in a vehicle (in fact it's generally a terrible idea to leave a weapon in an unattended vehicle). Moreover, a weapon is generally carried with a magazine inserted and a round in the chamber, so the weapon is actually ready to shoot. Some firearms come with a safety selector switch, others do not.

You're right that you could be armed and still end up dead, and the more firearms out there the more likely you are to have some hot head carrying one, but on the other hand people also have a right to defend their life. Waiting for the police to arrive is almost never going to save anyone. 99% of the time cops show up and take a report about what happened to you, and if lucky arrest the person they believe did it, but rare is the occasion that they are actually there to stop it before the damage is done.

[trish]

The guy was a loon toon, too bad there weren't armed citizens around to put a bullet in his head:
That's a pretty loony statement right there. Anyone who makes such inane comments definitely shouldn't be allow to carry, let alone be on the police force.

[notdrunk]

That's a pretty loony statement right there. Anyone who makes such inane comments definitely shouldn't be allow to carry, let alone be on the police force.

He was a waste of oxygen and space. He should of just hung himself in his room. He stabbed to death three people in an apartment. And, he shot three people to death. He also hit four people with his car causing various injuries. He was going to kill with or without a gun.

http://news.yahoo.com/sheriff-calif-gunman-killed-3-people-home-005331176.html

[trish]

The looney statement is, "too bad there weren't armed citizens..." Like a bunch of testosterone crazed gun lunatics trying to pick off a the driver of a moving BMW behind a tinted windshield isn't going to wreak even more havoc! Put your toys away and grow up.

Just like all gun toting loons, this particular alpha male was proving his worth to the female gender who apparently had enough sense to reject him en mass. So what's the solution? Fill the streets with gun toting good guy alpha males. Then we can have really cool shoots out like in a Sergio Leone western where the good guys always come through. Right? Testosterone cleanup in aisle six.

[NYBURBS]

That's a pretty loony statement right there. Anyone who makes such inane comments definitely shouldn't be allow to carry, let alone be on the police force.

Yea because it's so wrongheaded to shoot someone that is trying to carry out multiple murders. I'm sure the police, once they arrived, just tried to talk to the poor guy... oh wait, that's right, they shot at him. So I guess your position is that a badge makes it OK, but everyone else should have to cross their fingers and hope for the best.

[NYBURBS]

Just like all gun toting loons, this particular alpha male was proving his worth to the female gender who apparently had enough sense to reject him en mass.

Ah, that guy is about as "alpha-male" as a flamboyant drag queen singing Tina Turner's greatest hits. Yea, he described himself as an alpha male, but he also wrote "everyone will fear me as the powerful god I am." He was a deeply ill, narcissistic sociopath, but he was no "alpha-male."

[Prospero]

So the right to bear arms v the ability to easily acquire them.....
as a young Englishman, a student in California, yesterday went on the rampage and shot dead six young women because he was angry that girls ignored him and he was "still virgin". Not a US citizen so no right to have a gun was involved. But clearly this troubled bastard had no problem obtaining his firearm in the US.

[trish]

Yea because it's so wrongheaded to shoot someone that is trying to carry out multiple murders. I'm sure the police, once they arrived, just tried to talk to the poor guy... oh wait, that's right, they shot at him. So I guess your position is that a badge makes it OK, but everyone else should have to cross their fingers and hope for the best.
Because it's looney to want to live on streets filled with "armed citizens" and expect that to have an attenuating effect on violence.

[trish]

Ah, that guy is about as "alpha-male" as a flamboyant drag queen singing Tina Turner's greatest hits. Yea, he described himself as an alpha male, but he also wrote "everyone will fear me as the powerful god I am." He was a deeply ill, narcissistic sociopath, but he was no "alpha-male."The same could be said of anyone one carries a firearm (outside of their job in the military, police etc.). Like a street filled with good guy alpha males with guns are going to stop crime rather than amplify it. It's a testosterone driven fantasy. Time to grow up now.

[martin48]

Let's compromise - let them carry their weapons but they have to have their hormone supply shut down.

Come on guys, must be worth it to get your hands round a firm AK-47


The looney statement is, "too bad there weren't armed citizens..." Like a bunch of testosterone crazed gun lunatics trying to pick off a the driver of a moving BMW behind a tinted windshield isn't going to wreak even more havoc! Put your toys away and grow up.

Just like all gun toting loons, this particular alpha male was proving his worth to the female gender who apparently had enough sense to reject him en mass. So what's the solution? Fill the streets with gun toting good guy alpha males. Then we can have really cool shoots out like in a Sergio Leone western where the good guys always come through. Right? Testosterone cleanup in aisle six.

[Stavros]

"I am more than human. I am superior to them all. I am Elliot Rodger ... Magnificent, glorious, supreme, eminent ... Divine! I am the closest thing there is to a living god."

Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition.

[broncofan]

I know you're a bright guy, and a sensible person, so please don't take this as a slight, but I think you may be ignorant as to how firearms work and are typically carried.
Of course I'll accept a minor slight like that for the compliments that preceded it jk. I think you're right about that but I don't think it hampers my ability to argue the main points very much. One doesn't have to be an intravenous drug user to know that they can be harmful to people.

This is a classic case of the rights of the individual to self-determine v. the rights of the state to protect public health. If there weren't a constitutional amendment, it would not even be a close case, as people are forced to cede absolute control of their lives frequently for the benefit of living in a civilized society.

I also think on the issue of public safety it's not a very close call.

[broncofan]

"I am more than human. I am superior to them all. I am Elliot Rodger ... Magnificent, glorious, supreme, eminent ... Divine! I am the closest thing there is to a living god."

Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition.
Despite his focus on sex, I think what he really wanted was acceptance. He focused on sex because he thought it was the forbidden pleasure everyone had access to but him. Obviously he had major psychological problems, but at the core of it was loneliness and alienation.

[buttslinger]

Pretend for one brief second that this is the Hell's Angels website, and not the Hung Angels.

Try to explain how sucking a dick isn't being a homo if that dick is attached to a beautiful woman. Make this Biker understand that getting your ass reamed is a safe and groovy experience as long as you use a condom, and all those AIDs cases are ....well. you know, shit happens.

There actually are cases where sexual deviants (rapists and child molesters) get snipped down there, and then they lose all desire to molest. But it's up to the molester, even the courts cringe at the thought of castrating a child molester.

If you live in a West Texas town, work a shitty 40 hour week in the local factory, getting drunk on Friday Night and shooting Stop Signs is healthy.

On the list of things wrong with the USA, I would say there are about 50 different variations of the Economy Crisis that rate above gun control.
THE THING is, all those problems are going to take a real effort to mend, while you could fix lots of gun loopholes by picking up a pen and signing a piece of paper.

Don't go riling up the rednecks while so much is being done with gay rights at this time!!!!

The people who are right about everything are very detached people.

[broncofan]

P

The people who are right about everything are very detached people.
I didn't understand your post until I read this line. Being right and convincing people are two different things I agree. .

I have had conversations about guns with "rednecks" before I knew there was a major cultural divide on the issue. Me and this one guy were talking about important issues and suddenly the guy burst out "but they want to take our guns away." I said, "who cares? Are you an adult?". I'm not bragging about being out of touch, but it was my authentic reaction to what I thought was a bizarre outburst. We were just talking about economic fairness and social justice, and this is the sticking point for you?

[broncofan]

But if some of us gun control folks were from West Texas would we have different views? It's depressing but many of us probably would.

I have noticed that the smart pro-gun people tend to become auto-didacts when it comes to how guns work, to the arcane regulations dealing with their ownership and use, as well as the different certifications demarcating each user's proficiency with them. They clearly have a profound cultural significance for some and can't be understood by the rest of us simply by thinking about their functions and risks.

[buttslinger]

I'm a Redskinfan, broncofan, and it took many repeated conversations to make me realize the name "REDSKIN" might be a slur to the millions of native Americans we killed and crammed into concent....reservations.

I'm sure deep down Indians think of ALL Whitemen as murderers.

[AlexisDVyne]

Pretend for one brief second that this is the Hell's Angels website, and not the Hung Angels.

Try to explain how sucking a dick isn't being a homo if that dick is attached to a beautiful woman. Make this Biker understand that getting your ass reamed is a safe and groovy experience as long as you use a condom, and all those AIDs cases are ....well. you know, shit happens.

There actually are cases where sexual deviants (rapists and child molesters) get snipped down there, and then they lose all desire to molest. But it's up to the molester, even the courts cringe at the thought of castrating a child molester.

The people who are right about everything are very detached people.


LOL.. Too Funny.. :)

I know a number of bikers and started my transition in one of the HA capitals of Canada.. The majority of bikers I've seen are very straight guys that are inexperienced and generally tops. Some of them like mutual oral and hardly any are bottoms..

I've been in a number of biker bars.. I put up with their bullshit and offer witty comebacks that makes them get very quiet.. In general.. I never felt unsafe around bikers at any time ever..

As for shooting rapists and child molesters.. I think they we need to make certain they are guilty before we do this.. I mean.. I'd have to be sure before I cap some motherfucker for raping my daughter.

People who are right about everything are wrong..


I'm a Redskinfan, broncofan, and it took many repeated conversations to make me realize the name "REDSKIN" might be a slur to the millions of native Americans we killed and crammed into concent....reservations.

I'm sure deep down Indians think of ALL Whitemen as murderers.

Murderers.. yes.. Handing out blankets tainted with smallpox and measles.. killing 80% by horrible disease..

Killing all the buffalo.. Killing 75% of the reaming people and then putting them into reserves.. Destroying their culture and brainwashing their children in christian schools..

Wonderful way to build a nation..

It wasn't just white man.. the Spanish were every bit as bad or worse in central america..

Native American Peoples are still segregated, discriminated against and oppressed by the ruling class..

[martin48]

From Michael Moore's FB page. Think about it

With due respect to those who are asking me to comment on last night's tragic mass shooting at UCSB in Isla Vista, CA -- I no longer have anything to say about what is now part of normal American life. Everything I have to say about this, I said it 12 years ago: We are a people easily manipulated by fear which causes us to arm ourselves with a quarter BILLION guns in our homes that are often easily accessible to young people, burglars, the mentally ill and anyone who momentarily snaps. We are a nation founded in violence, grew our borders through violence, and allow men in power to use violence around the world to further our so-called American (corporate) "interests." The gun, not the eagle, is our true national symbol. While other countries have more violent pasts (Germany, Japan), more guns per capita in their homes (Canada [mostly hunting guns]), and the kids in most other countries watch the same violent movies and play the same violent video games that our kids play, no one even comes close to killing as many of its own citizens on a daily basis as we do -- and yet we don't seem to want to ask ourselves this simple question: "Why us? What is it about US?" Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males. None of them are committed by the majority gender, women. Hmmm, why is that? Even when 90% of the American public calls for stronger gun laws, Congress refuses -- and then we the people refuse to remove them from office. So the onus is on us, all of us. We won't pass the necessary laws, but more importantly we won't consider why this happens here all the time. When the NRA says, "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people," they've got it half-right. Except I would amend it to this: "Guns don't kill people -- Americans kill people." Enjoy the rest of your day, and rest assured this will all happen again very soon.

[Prospero]

In an intriguing feature which I posted elsewhere, the retired US supreme court judge John Paul Stevens calls for a modest change to the second amendment. He suggests that it apply only to those who keep and bear arms "when serving in the Militia."
Small word change... big sea change. Won't happen.

[buttslinger]

I'm too stupid to really understand the answer here, is there really anybody who would want me to make an uninformed decision that counts? Who do you trust?
Maybe we are the DEBATE Country that never can agree on where to draw the line.

I had a prescription for Cialis, I think it is like 10 bucks for a 20mg pill in the US, it is 2 bucks in Canada. But if you go on the internet and try to find a Canadian Pharmacy that is trustworthy, you will be inundated by reviews that say such and such pharmacy is fantastic, and you will have just as many reviews that say the exact same pharmacy will steal your credit card number and rip you off bad.

So the only rational reason for the gun violence in the USA is.....there is SO MUCH MONEY to be made here, that you're never going to get a straight answer out of somebody if they stand to make, literally, MILLIONS of Dollars!!
If you own a Gun Company or a Pharmaceutical Company, you might not spend a ton of money to influence gun laws and medical laws in Canada with it's 35 million people. But the USA with almost ten times as many people and money??? Goddamm Right you're going to spend money influencing "the truth" as people see it. It's called ADVERTISING.

Cigarettes, Red Meat, Sugar, Pills, Beer, high sucrose corn syrup, French fries, cola drinks, all that stuff is bad for you but hey, I got a coupon!!!!!!!

[AlexisDVyne]

I'm too stupid to really understand the answer here, is there really anybody who would want me to make an uninformed decision that counts? Who do you trust?
Maybe we are the DEBATE Country that never can agree on where to draw the line.

I had a prescription for Cialis, I think it is like 10 bucks for a 20mg pill in the US, it is 2 bucks in Canada. But if you go on the internet and try to find a Canadian Pharmacy that is trustworthy, you will be inundated by reviews that say such and such pharmacy is fantastic, and you will have just as many reviews that say the exact same pharmacy will steal your credit card number and rip you off bad.

So the only rational reason for the gun violence in the USA is.....there is SO MUCH MONEY to be made here, that you're never going to get a straight answer out of somebody if they stand to make, literally, MILLIONS of Dollars!!
If you own a Gun Company or a Pharmaceutical Company, you might not spend a ton of money to influence gun laws and medical laws in Canada with it's 35 million people. But the USA with almost ten times as many people and money??? Goddamm Right you're going to spend money influencing "the truth" as people see it. It's called ADVERTISING.

Cigarettes, Red Meat, Sugar, Pills, Beer, high sucrose corn syrup, French fries, cola drinks, all that stuff is bad for you but hey, I got a coupon!!!!!!!

First of.. Here in Vancouver BC Canada Cialis cost $75 for a box of 4 from the drugstore.. not $2 a pill.. Generic Viagra is $40 a box of 4.. I know cuz I have scripts for both..

Also.. If I am responsible, don't go killing people and only shoot targets then why should I not be allowed to legally posses firearms?

Guns should not be banned.. they should be regulated.. It makes a big difference..

Let us also remember.. more people get stabbed rather than shot..

The problem is in people's minds.. not in the weapons they use..

[95racer]

deleted

[95racer]

I'm too stupid to really understand the answer here, is there really anybody who would want me to make an uninformed decision that counts? Who do you trust?
Maybe we are the DEBATE Country that never can agree on where to draw the line.

I had a prescription for Cialis, I think it is like 10 bucks for a 20mg pill in the US, it is 2 bucks in Canada. But if you go on the internet and try to find a Canadian Pharmacy that is trustworthy, you will be inundated by reviews that say such and such pharmacy is fantastic, and you will have just as many reviews that say the exact same pharmacy will steal your credit card number and rip you off bad.

So the only rational reason for the gun violence in the USA is.....there is SO MUCH MONEY to be made here, that you're never going to get a straight answer out of somebody if they stand to make, literally, MILLIONS of Dollars!!
If you own a Gun Company or a Pharmaceutical Company, you might not spend a ton of money to influence gun laws and medical laws in Canada with it's 35 million people. But the USA with almost ten times as many people and money??? Goddamm Right you're going to spend money influencing "the truth" as people see it. It's called ADVERTISING.

Cigarettes, Red Meat, Sugar, Pills, Beer, high sucrose corn syrup, French fries, cola drinks, all that stuff is bad for you but hey, I got a coupon!!!!!!!


Nice ad. My daily carry is a Beretta :dancing:

[buttslinger]

Here's where I get 100 generic Cialis tabs for 198 bucks, free shipping. They're from India, I think, .......they work.

https://www.northwestpharmacy.com/productsearch.aspx?s=cialis

Viagra was all set to go generic in the US, they got some Kangaroo Court in Virginia to extend the patent.

If you have a Hung Angels Art Contest, you'll get some nice entries, see a side of people here you haven't seen. If you offer a $100,000.00 prize, you'll see Art from top Artists that is unbelievably good.

Same with Guns. You have incredibly smart people figuring out ways to get guns to people who like guns. Seducing Willing Customers.

It's either that or Americans are receiving subliminal messages through their TV and Radios to go out and Kill People.

[martin48]

A bit of balance

[Turlington]

That's gotta be one of the stupidest bans in this country. What the fuck happened when kids can't read Little Red Riding Hood? SMDH...

[notdrunk]

That's gotta be one of the stupidest bans in this country. What the fuck happened when kids can't read Little Red Riding Hood? SMDH...

Mostly BS..

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/aug/27/moms-demand-action-gun-sense-america/moms-demand-action-says-little-red-riding-hood-has/

[buttslinger]

If Granny had an AR-15, they could have had some nice Wolf KeBabs with their wine.

The World is just going to have to live with guns in the USA, like they "stood by" with the Iraq War, Slavery, Nuclear ICBMs, Wall Street, Guantanamo, Reality TV, Kim Kardashian, and all the other millions of misadventures, sins, and WRONGS that occur every second of the day. We're just a bunch of "Meat Suits" walking around, what do you expect?

On the other hands, you are free to move to any other country you like, the average American might REALISTICALLY have more of a chance to advance himself farther than any other time in the World's existence. The only Guarantee is, you make your plans, then LIFE happens.

When you wave a gun at somebody, you expect them to listen to what you say. When you aim your gun at LIFE, life isn't scared of you.

I predict gun violence will diminish about the same time China and India take over the World's economy.

What if George W Bush really knew what he was doing, and his pals grabbed the last bit of wealth that existed in the West before Asia takes over, do the Gov't Mensa Tea Leaf Readers see that the party is over for the west, and the future is cardboard houses and Walmart franchises?

Why the moronic gun violence in the USA? You tell me, man, I only live here.

[yodajazz]

http://kdvr.com/2014/02/07/bail-hearing-resumes-for-man-accused-of-killing-texting-father-in-fla-theater/

When one sees news headlines such as this, you can guess there was a gun involved. The man was texting because he had gotten something, from the baby sitter of his 2 year old daughter. He and the shooter got into some angry words, apparently.

[Ben]

Author and radio host Thom Hartmann:

Guns Should be Regulated Like Cars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaRZecaOaHk

[robertlouis]

Only in a place as fucked up as the US would a grieving father be attacked for asking for a little sense on gun control.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/26/us-usa-shooting-california-idUSBREA4N05120140526

[Prospero]

This from Mother Jones magazine... debunking some gun enthusiasts myths.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/pro-gun-myths-fact-check


10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down
Fact-checking some of the gun lobby's favorite arguments shows they're full of holes.
—By Dave Gilson

By cutting off federal funding for research and stymieing data collection and sharing, the National Rifle Association has tried to do to the study of gun violence what climate deniers have done to the science of global warming. No wonder: When it comes to hard numbers, some of the gun lobby's favorite arguments are full of holes.

Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1.


Sources: Congressional Research Service (PDF), Small Arms Survey

Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership. Gun death rates are generally lower in states with restrictions such as assault-weapons bans or safe-storage requirements. Update: A recent study looking at 30 years of homicide data in all 50 states found that for every one percent increase in a state's gun ownership rate, there is a nearly one percent increase in its firearm homicide rate.


Sources: Pediatrics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.
• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without.
• In states with Stand Your Ground and other laws making it easier to shoot in self-defense, those policies have been linked to a 7 to 10% increase in homicides.


This Is How the NRA Lies to Gun Owners About Obama's Agenda
NRA's School Security Plan Cites Phony Shooting
This Collection of NRA Ads Reveals Its Descent Into Crazy
The NRA Myth of Gun-Free Zones
Gunmakers and the NRA Bet Big on Silencers. What Could Go Wrong?
Investigators Discover NRA Materials in Newtown Killer's House
EXCLUSIVE: Unmasking the NRA's Inner Circle
Meet the NRA's Board of Directors
The NRA Myth of Arming the Good Guys
How the NRA and Its Allies Helped Spread a Radical Gun Law Nationwide
See our full special report on gun laws and the rise of mass shootings in America.
Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0
• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5

Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.

Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers.
• A woman's chances of being killed by her abuser increase more than 7 times if he has access to a gun.
• One study found that women in states with higher gun ownership rates were 4.9 times more likely to be murdered by a gun than women in states with lower gun ownership rates.

Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?

United States Japan
Per capita spending
on video games $44 $55
Civilian firearms
per 100 people 88 0.6
Gun homicides
in 2008 11,030 11
Sources: PricewaterhouseCoopers, Small Arms Survey (PDF), UN Office on Drugs and Crime

Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population.
• About 50% of Americans said they had a gun in their homes in 1973. Today, about 45% say they do. Overall, 35% of Americans personally own a gun.
• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each.

Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.
• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check.
• 20% of licensed California gun dealers agreed to sell handguns to researchers posing as illegal "straw" buyers.
• The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives has not had a permanent director for 6 years, due to an NRA-backed requirement that the Senate approve nominees.

This article has been updated.

Icons in gun ownership chart: Handgun designed by Simon Child, rifle designed by Nadav Barkan, shotgun designed by Ammar Ceker, all from the Noun Project

Front page image by konstantynov/Shutterstock

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DAVE GILSONSenior Editor
Dave Gilson is a senior editor at Mother Jones. Read more of his stories, follow him on Twitter, or contact him at dgilson (at) motherjones (dot) com. RSS | TWITTER

[buttslinger]

Both the NRA and the GOVT doesn't say anything until it goes by a team of lawyers and strategists, they pick the absolute best answer available to promote their own agenda.

Just like a Bank Robber picks a gun to promote his bank robbing agenda.

A joke is a joke and the truth is the truth and a vote is a vote, but I'm not sure I would vote on removing all the guns in existence, which is just about what it would take to solve the problem. I would have to give that some serious thought.

The United States may be the first World Power that doesn't routinely annex other countries.
We're so special!!!!!:dancing:
Agree or we'll kill you.

[trish]

NOT ONE MORE

https://act.everytown.org/act/notonemore?source=ggnp_CK-MSNBC&utm_source=gg&utm_medium=_p_&utm_campaign=CK-MSNBC&gclid=CKWapu3w2b4CFVR5MgodQiAA9Q

[Silcc69]

Has the so called smart guns been mentioned on here? If not there was a gun owner in Maryland that was going to start carrying them until he got threats from <drum roll please> gun owners LOL!


http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/5/5683504/gun-control-the-nra-wants-to-take-smart-guns-away

[AlexisDVyne]

This from Mother Jones magazine... debunking some gun enthusiasts myths.

Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates. Also, gun death rates tend to be higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership. Gun death rates are generally lower in states with restrictions such as assault-weapons bans or safe-storage requirements. Update: A recent study looking at 30 years of homicide data in all 50 states found that for every one percent increase in a state's gun ownership rate, there is a nearly one percent increase in its firearm homicide rate.


Sources: Pediatrics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention


Fact check huh..

OK.. take my shotgun.. put it on the balcony in a chair..

Lots of people within 100 yards and it's loaded with 00 buck..

I wait and watch.. the gun doesn't do anything..

So I figure.. maybe it's cuz I'm watching..

I go inside and leave the gun by itself with lots of targets.. couple hours go by..

I think it moved.. maybe a bit.. not sure tho..

How long do I have to wait before the gun tries to kill someone???

Guns do not kill people.. people kill people..

[notdrunk]

Has the so called smart guns been mentioned on here? If not there was a gun owner in Maryland that was going to start carrying them until he got threats from <drum roll please> gun owners LOL!


http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/5/5683504/gun-control-the-nra-wants-to-take-smart-guns-away

Your article explains the freak out: Some lawmakers are trying to impose restrictions on ownership using the development of new technologies as a cover.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/05/gun_control_groups_file_lawsuit_to_force_nj_attorn ey_general_to_report_on_smart_guns.html

[trish]

The point here is free fuckin’ enterprise, are you for it? Andy Raymond, a gun dealer, simply added some smart guns to his stock. He thought he might turn a buck by selling a few of them...as he has every fucking right to do. And what does he get for his trouble? Death threats to his family. Evidently it’s not okay for an elected State government to pass a law, but it is honkey dory to enforce your personal point of view by illegal means.

If you don’t like New Jersey’s law, don’t fuckin’ go there. Or fight it by legal means e.g. protest, boycott etc. But you’re suggesting it’s perfectly fine to threaten the life of a man’s family just because he’s selling a legal product in a legal venue. You would sacrifice democracy and free enterprise rather than put in some time legally fighting a law that offends your manhood. Tell me you’re drunk.

[buttslinger]

NOT ONE MORE

https://act.everytown.org/act/notonemore?source=ggnp_CK-MSNBC&utm_source=gg&utm_medium=_p_&utm_campaign=CK-MSNBC&gclid=CKWapu3w2b4CFVR5MgodQiAA9Q

Danke Shane, Goodbye Shane, I signed up and they thank you and you can forward to family and friends, thanks trish.

If you're an American see if you can go to the SEX OFFENDER LIST for your state, (maybe your name is there!!!)
Check out the faces. Thousands of them. Vacant Stares.
Something about one death a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic.
The gun-nuts consider themselves true Americans. I have much personal experience with THE BLIND SPOT. It is always directly in front of your face.

[notdrunk]

The point here is free fuckin’ enterprise, are you for it? Andy Raymond, a gun dealer, simply added some smart guns to his stock. He thought he might turn a buck by selling a few of them...as he has every fucking right to do. And what does he get for his trouble? Death threats to his family. Evidently it’s not okay for an elected State government to pass a law, but it is honkey dory to enforce your personal point of view by illegal means.

If you don’t like New Jersey’s law, don’t fuckin’ go there. Or fight it by legal means e.g. protest, boycott etc. But you’re suggesting it’s perfectly fine to threaten the life of a man’s family just because he’s selling a legal product in a legal venue. You would sacrifice democracy and free enterprise rather than put in some time legally fighting a law that offends your manhood. Tell me you’re drunk.

I am not suggesting anything. And, I am not defending people that make threats. I only pointed out why the response to the Armatix iP1 hasn't been receptive that much. David Kopel perfectly explains the situation in two articles that were posted back in May on the Washington Post's website. It isn't about being against free enterprise.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/06/smart-guns/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/05/22/brady-center-lawsuit-to-use-smart-gun-mandate-to-trigger-handgun-ban-in-new-jersey/

[trish]

Yes, yes the response to the smart gun hasn't been receptive. There's a reason: "lawmakers are trying to impose restrictions on ownership using the development of new technologies as a cover. " Go ahead and not suggest away. LOL

[notdrunk]

Yes, yes the response to the smart gun hasn't been receptive. There's a reason: "lawmakers are trying to impose restrictions on ownership using the development of new technologies as a cover. " Go ahead and not suggest away. LOL

No, you accused me suggesting that it is okay to make death threats. I didn't make that suggestion.

[trish]

Please, continue to not suggest Andy's opposition had a reasonable motive for their lunatic reaction. Indeed, why not come right out and tell us their reaction was lunatic?

[Silcc69]

Your article explains the freak out: Some lawmakers are trying to impose restrictions on ownership using the development of new technologies as a cover.

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/05/gun_control_groups_file_lawsuit_to_force_nj_attorn ey_general_to_report_on_smart_guns.html


It's more of a loophole than anything else as it doesn't violate anybody's second amendment rights.

[notdrunk]

Please, continue to not suggest Andy's opposition had a reasonable motive for their lunatic reaction. Indeed, why not come right out and tell us their reaction was lunatic?

Not all the reactions fell on the side of lunatic. Additionally, my first point did say freak out which encompasses craziness too.



It's more of a loophole than anything else as it doesn't violate anybody's second amendment rights.

Only one handgun on the market that almost costs $2000 would run afoul the Heller ruling.

[trish]

Please continue to not suggest there's a rational reason to threaten a man's family. Then consider how numerous those crazies are. Andy received so many threatening letters, emails and comments from "freaked out" gun lunatics he decided to cave in and not put his stock of smart guns on the shelves. Should those lunatics even have guns? Should they be allowed to carry firearms hidden on their person? Should this group of "enthusiasts" be encouraged to stand their ground, risk killing someone or being killed rather than retreat to safety and spare the rest of us yet another shoot out? Should people prone to threaten a man's family for selling a legal item in a legal venue be allowed easy access to firearms? Who are they? Can we identify them before we sell them a firearm? What about the even larger group of enthusiasts who applaud their behavior? Can they be trusted with firearms? Here's a relevant thought by Joe Nocera

"But, of course, there is another way of thinking about this. Instead of focusing on making it harder for the mentally ill to get guns, maybe we should be making it harder to get guns, period. Something to consider before the next mass shooting." http://nyti.ms/1mLkaaD

[Prospero]

Does it say something about the nature of those fascinated with firearms that a shop I passed yesterday, devoted to replica guns and the like, also featurde Nazi memorabilia, daggers with Nazi symbols emblazoned on them, T shirts about the joy of gunning people down etc....

[martin48]

I think you have spotted something here - never made the connection before. Seems as likely as this newspaper headline



Does it say something about the nature f those fascinated with guns that a shop I passed yesterday, devoted to replica guns and the like, also feature Nazi memorabilia, daggers with Nazi symbols emblazoned on them, Y shirts about the joy of gunning people down etc....

[Ben in LA]

This.

[trish]

Those who openly carry are utter assholes, but at least they're not also cowards. Those who carry their guns furtively are too cowardly to show the public the toys they can't be without.

[buttslinger]

I think you guys are being a little close-minded here, .......
100 million Nazis CAN't be wrong!!
Personally, I draw the line at ALIEN Nazis with machine guns.
Those guys are just beyond rude.

Mutant Nazi Nightmare - An American Werewolf in London (3/10) Movie CLIP (1981) HD - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0wShZqevLU)

[martin48]

Open carry - yes, favour this


Those who openly carry are utter assholes, but at least they're not also cowards. Those who carry their guns furtively are too cowardly to show the public the toys they can't be without.

[maxpower]

Saw a great clip on The Colbert Report from Monday night, where they do a spot on an idiot in the Florida Keys who set up a target range in his driveway. The guy is just as thick-headed as can be, firing live ammo in a suburban neighborhood, much to his neighbors' dismay. When you see his parents, you'll know where his stupidity comes from - the apple did not fall far from the tree. I am unable to post the video here from Comedy Central, but go here: http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos then scroll down and look for the clip entitled "Difference Makers: Doug Varrieur" from 6/2/14. Very funny, and a little scary.

[trish]

A good bit. Thanks.
Very funny, and a little scary. Scarier the closer to Doug you happen to live. Imagine having a school age kid who has to walk past that nut's house everyday on the way to and from school. That his backyard range is apparently legal, demonstrates the laws regulating firearms are way off-kilter and need to be brought back into the realm of sanity.

[fred41]

I thought that had to be inaccurate...that there would be local ordinances, at the very least, about noise and perhaps distances allowed to fire near a home....but I was wrong. http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/01/26/3895027/big-pine-key-homeowner-has-gun.html

Wow.






P.S.....wanna see something scary...check out the poll that's attached to the article.

[Silcc69]

Hmmm look like there has been ANOTHER shooting at Seattle Pacific University.

[robertlouis]

Hmmm look like there has been ANOTHER shooting at Seattle Pacific University.

Yep. Here we go again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27726855

[Ben]

Yep. Here we go again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27726855

And in Canada:

Gunman who killed 3 officers still on the loose:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/05/world/canada-shooting/

[trish]

Stewart tore open the assholes of open carry advocates last night, his magazines filled with armor penetrating arguments. See the clips at the following link.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-tears-into-nra-texas-open-carry-gun-nuts/

[Silcc69]

I'm pretty much use to the shootings now I mean the NRA is probably the most power lobbyist group in the entire world.

[trish]

They're hard to get used to when they're in your backyard.

Moreover, how are we to know the asswipe carrying an assault weapon into Starbucks is a good guy with a gun. For all we know his presence is a threat to our lives. If we fear for our lives we have (in some States) every right to stand our ground, pull out our concealed weapons and shoot it out! As Stewart points out: that's why policemen wear uniforms. So they don't have to spend their day saying, "Hey, it's cool__don't be alarmed just 'cause I have a gun__ I'm a good guy with a gun__ I'm a policeman." Even the NRA agreed, until they evidently received enough death threats to change their minds. Now their pointing their tiny little dicks back in the direction of total gun lunacy again.

I just want to tell gun enthusiasts this: Even if you have a tiny dick, you don't need to compensate for it by carrying a firearm. If you don't drop your pants in public, no one will know your dick is tiny. But if you openly carry, everyone will know. If you carry concealed...there's no such thing...we'll still know.

[fred41]

Stewart tore open the assholes of open carry advocates last night, his magazines filled with armor penetrating arguments. See the clips at the following link.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-tears-into-nra-texas-open-carry-gun-nuts/

He did....but you know who "killed it" even more than he did?...the young lady in the first clip who called them "dumb asses", because from where I'm sitting, those open carry advocates are geeky nerds with guns...and nothing deflates them more than criticism from the opposite sex...because it's nigh impossible for them to get laid to begin with. It's bad enough that they have to compete with normal folk, but they also have to compete with "real" nerds...you know - the ones who have problems with girls early on during their school years , but who eventually get decent tech jobs and do quite well for themselves...because they're FUCKING INTELLIGENT.
...whereas these folks are ignorant nerds....and what's the point of existing for an ignorant nerd?
BTW...it might help their argument of self-defense if they actually took the time to learn how to defend themselves without a rifle...or at least just exercise a little bit...you know - show some real discipline. Why do I mention this?...because these guys are pretenders.
Sure - this looks fine in front of a camera traveling in packs...but (just for an example) how well do you think that douche bag in the silly hat would last in an urban neighborhood with his assault rifle (useless in a close-up situation anyway)...all by himself? I'd be willing to bet that thing would get taken away from him with ridiculous ease....and possibly rammed up his ass.

whatever.

[Prospero]

Now what was i said the other day here about neo-nazi trappings in a UK army material store.... It now seems the killers in the latest Las Vegas shooting were it seems white supremacists.... Nazis by any other name.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/las-vegas-shooting-suspects-had-white-supremacist-views-1.2669292

[martin48]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/the-public-health-crisis-that-is-america-s-gun-culture-1.2611483

You will never see "The Smile of Reason" in the US on guns

[broncofan]

Now what was i said the other day here about neo-nazi trappings in a UK army material store.... It now seems the killers in the latest Las Vegas shooting were it seems white supremacists.... Nazis by any other name.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/las-vegas-shooting-suspects-had-white-supremacist-views-1.2669292
Not only is he a white supremacist but he also claims to have been one of the militia men who visited Cliven Bundy's ranch. Do you remember Trish getting flack from Kitty for claiming that many of the militia people had views that were tightly correlated with racism. It may be a little bit preliminary, but these two were paranoid, anti-government folks with guns...who thought Obama was trying to take their liberty.

[trish]

Two bad guys with guns took out two good guys with guns and some without. What's going wrong here? This ain't the way the NRA told us it would be.

[fred41]

Not only is he a white supremacist but he also claims to have been one of the militia men who visited Cliven Bundy's ranch. Do you remember Trish getting flack from Kitty for claiming that many of the militia people had views that were tightly correlated with racism. It may be a little bit preliminary, but these two were paranoid, anti-government folks with guns...who thought Obama was trying to take their liberty.

People know I hate conspiracy theories...but....it seems lately that a lot of "militia" type attacks on law enforcement have taken place lately. The Nevada event is just one...you also have this, for instance....http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651441/Moment-gas-mask-wearing-gunman-tossed-smoke-grenade-came-shooting-courthouse-assault.

Marx was a member of the "Sovereign Citizens Movement"....LE is constantly on the alert for these dirtbags...they have targeted cops making traffic stops, courthouses,...etc.

..fucking wastes of oxygen...their parents should have aborted.

[Ben]

Thom Hartmann: Why Don't They call it Domestic Terror?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFkahUZ2xY8

[broncofan]

Tea Party Cop Killer Jarad Miller speaking at Bundy Ranch - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA5TsWQ749w)

[broncofan]

I just want to point out there is sort of a coalescence of the Bundy Rancher stance and the gun issue. You have people who claim that any regulation they disagree with they will oppose with violence. They also say that even lawful means of enforcing lawful acts of government will be interpreted as violence and met with their own violence (theirs being unlawful of course).

We've heard the loud talk but this is the operational component that would naturally tend to complement the rhetoric.

If any of this doesn't make sense it's because my sleeping pill kicked in just before I started writing.

I wrote Fred41 a pm on a sleeping pill one time and his response was very nice....but it didn't have my original message on it (and I don't have a sent box apparently)....so although I was sincere in what I said I can't quite remember it. My screen is literally moving....don't worry ladies and gents these are legally prescribed pills use at the proper dose...time for bed. lol

Edit: I wanted to show the video even if it disturbs people to hear the massmurdering bigot speak, it provides some evidence of his involvement in the Bundy movement.

[Turlington]

Post it.

[fred41]

I wrote Fred41 a pm on a sleeping pill one time and his response was very nice....but it didn't have my original message on it (and I don't have a sent box apparently)....so although I was sincere in what I said I can't quite remember it. My screen is literally moving....don't worry ladies and gents these are legally prescribed pills use at the proper dose...time for bed. lol


Hmm...If it's what I think it was....it had something to do with Gene Rosen..the guy who, during the Sandy Hook massacre, claimed he took in some of the children and listened to their stories...http://nypost.com/2012/12/17/newtown-man-took-six-students-in-after-shooting-kids-told-him-our-teacher-is-dead/

...lol...those must be some good pills.

[broncofan]

Hmm...If it's what I think it was....it had something to do with Gene Rosen..the guy who, during the Sandy Hook massacre, claimed he took in some of the children and listened to their stories...http://nypost.com/2012/12/17/newtown-man-took-six-students-in-after-shooting-kids-told-him-our-teacher-is-dead/

...lol...those must be some good pills.
That was it! Sometimes they kick in before I think they will. And of course I will have started doing something and they catch me by surprise. I just remember that was the other time that happened while I was writing. Suppose I need to take them, and go to bed. Anyhow, sorry for the digression.;

[trish]

Not a sleeping pill gal. My habit is to have two fingers of a single malt scotch before bed (and contrary to what the connoisseurs will tell you__I like it with a cube or two of ice). Also I try not to think about guns, politics (and definitely not math or physics if I want to sleep) right before bedtime. I prefer to have some nighttime nooky, if my man's in town (he lives and works 90 miles away). Barring that, I'll pull up a nice video clip and masturbate. Doesn't take long to drift off to dreamland after that.

So I did that last night and this morning I wake up to the horrid and stupid reality that still plagues this nation. Gerrymandering and Citizens United has given control of this nation's legislatures to whomever can buy it. The NRA lobby is one of the most influential. Polls indicate that people want sensible firearm regulation. Between 35% to 40% of households own a firearm (down from over 50% two decades ago). What we have is nation where a most people would rather not mess with firearms, while a minority (mostly mislead simpletons or white supremacists or both) is stockpiling their own personal arsenals and threatening violence against any authority that would enforce laws with which they disagree. Oh, and they like to call themselves patriots. What a crock!

That's why, when night draws on and it's time to hit the sack, I pour myself a drink, put on some seductive music, a skanky negligee and create a little diversion.

[maxpower]

Mmmm...ho hum...another shooting today at a high school in the Portland, OR area. *YAWN* What's for lunch?

[AlexisDVyne]

Here's a nice little video of what happens when some people phone the police for help..

It also includes a segment where I guy (undercover ex cop) tried to get a complaint form from several police departments.. often getting arrested..

One guy was in an accident, badly injured and burnt when police showed up after he phoned for help.. They tazered him repeatedly and then shot him to death.. the 2 cops were cleared of all charges..

Caution this video is very graphic and disturbing..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVmGWLsn0iM

There is something very wrong with the system in the USA.. If I was an american I would seriously consider leaving the country..

I will never visit the USA.. it's far to dangerous..

[Prospero]

Alexis. I visit the US every year, several times and have done since the mid 1970s. I have never been caught up in any violence nor seen any bad incidents. I think you are over reacting.

[buttslinger]

Looks like "The Sleeping Giant" doesn't want to crawl out of bed long enough to cure it's ills yet. So many, so many.

[maxpower]

I will never visit the USA..


Gee, that's a shame. :roll: I suppose we'll have to try and manage somehow.

[AlexisDVyne]

Alexis. I visit the US every year, several times and have done since the mid 1970s. I have never been caught up in any violence nor seen any bad incidents. I think you are over reacting.

I dunno.. I know a number of trans people that have had considerable grief living in the uSA. I also know a number of people that get hassled every time they try to enter the USA simply because they are trans..

The USA is a country where a person has no rights.. especially a foreigner in the USA.. zero rights at all..

I'm sure if you're some squeaky clean blue collar type then Homeland won't hassle you.. however.. if you're a transsexual who's changed their name, sex, etc and have a criminal record.. expect that you will be detained, searched and violated..

It's not my imagination that a trans friend of mine with no criminal record was detained for 6 hours at the border and then denied entry.. She did nothing wrong and they detained her.. The border guards called her dude, him, he etc.. They strip searched her without a female officer being there even though her Canadian passport said female on it..

Pieces of shit.. Canadian border guards do not do this to trans people..


Gee, that's a shame. :roll: I suppose we'll have to try and manage somehow.

Yes.. you will.. I saw all the sights in the USA years ago.. The only thing new is more corruption, marshal law, hate and segregation of the poor..

Maybe some day the USA might figure it's shit out and the people wake up to what their government is doing.. I'm not about to hold my breath tho. better chance of WW3 happening than the USA Cleptocrats getting voted out..

[maxpower]

Here's a handy little guide for everyone:

[trish]

If you think guns enhance your manliness, consider this

http://www.americasfreedomfighters.com/2014/04/04/arizona-man-accidentally-shoots-his-penis-off/

[notdrunk]

If you think guns enhance your manliness, consider this

http://www.americasfreedomfighters.com/2014/04/04/arizona-man-accidentally-shoots-his-penis-off/

There is a reason that it is supposed to be angled when putting it in front part of your pants. :dead-1:

[trish]

If only we could count on the stupidity of gun enthusiasts to stop at shooting their own penises off, or shooting their butts, their feet etc. But the grim record shows their carelessness, and their irrational fear of others knows no bounds. There's a reason to regulate firearms and ban carry in public spaces.

[Turlington]

It's like when someone forgets to set the brake on their vehicle...or forget to check to make sure the brake (or other safety device) is working correctly. If that vehicle rolls away and damages something (or someone), who is held responsible?

[martin48]

Apparently it's quite common

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/16/geronimo-narciso-truck-driver-dies-accidentally-shooting-off-penis_n_3767528.html

[trish]

Amazing, given that their dicks make such small targets. Just proves they're subconsciously trying to use their guns as penis substitutes. Bless their little hearts.

[trish]

A Catholic priest in Phoenix Az. spied a derelict attempting to steal a security camera. There was a confrontation and the priest was hit with a metal object the derelict picked up on the spot. So the priest retreated to his rooms while the derelict continued to try to pry the security camera from its moorings. Out of danger, no ground to stand what did the priest do? Did he call the police? No he got his gun and returned to the scene. What was just a property crime in progress is about to escalate to murder because of the presence of a gun. Once again there’s a confrontation. The priest loses the gun to the derelict, who while running away with it, encounters a second priest. Frightened, the derelict fires the weapon and now derelict is promoted from burglar to murderer. Nice. Of course the promotion is not the big deal, the big deal is that someone is dead who wouldn't be if that gun had just been left in the desk drawer; or never in the Church at all. That’s another fine mess guns got us into.

http://www.kiiitv.com/story/25760622/phoenix-priest-shot-dead-another-wounded-at-catholic-church

[AshlynCreamher]

Sad story - let this be a reminder to us.

I worked for a catholic church for 2 1/ years in Seattle, st James cathedral

Father Ryan, Father Brant and Father Ward and sister Mary. All very nice, giving souls and very open minded too! I love and cherish the fact that I had the opportunity to work as part of there staff and attend mass.

Nonetheless, if either one of them from the parish had behaved the way this priest did (grabbing a gun and confronting people) robbers or not robbers. You don't do something like that.

Guns are not to blame for gun violence, people are to be blamed. I support the right to bare arms regardless of how many people are killed by them.

[trish]

People do stupid things all the time. Guns just make stupid people all the more hazardous.

Just last year twenty six year old children were gunned down in four minutes and nothing happened, except gun nut doubling down on their right maintain personal arsenals. Other western countries have solved this problem. It's time we take lives of our children more seriously than our adult toys.

[buttslinger]

I don't think there is any doubt that guns are testosterone-related, little girls play with dolls and little boys play with toy guns, armymen, cops and robbers.

So gun control is like penis control. If you sterilized the half of the population with the lowest IQs, you would probably solve the gun problem, as well as a hundred other problems that plague the nation.

And don't give me that Nazi crap!!! Hitler studied how we put Indians on Reservations when he was planning his Concentration Camps. So a little sterilization powder in the water supplies to the ghettoes, trailer parks, prisons, and social services buildings, and in twenty years we'd all be on the path to being too thin and too rich. Nip it in the bud, Andy. Nip it in the bud!!

[95racer]

So going along with the theme of this thread......

I picked up a used, mint, Smith & Wesson M&P .40c today. It's sweet!!! Just blasted 100 through it. Now need to pick out a couple of holsters for it and practice more.

Oh my dick feels bigger already !!!!! Bbbwwwaahhhhhaaaaa

[broncofan]

Now need to pick out a couple of holsters for it and practice more.

Just tuck it in your waistband.

[trish]

So going along with the theme of this thread......

I picked up a used, mint, Smith & Wesson M&P .40c today. It's sweet!!! Just blasted 100 through it. Now need to pick out a couple of holsters for it and practice more.

Oh my dick feels bigger already !!!!! BbbwwwaahhhhhaaaaaYou have a dick?? I didn't know.

[martin48]

Please feel free to discuss

[trish]

"It was an honest mistake officer. When she screamed, 'Pull it out and shoot it on my tits,' I thought she meant my gun."

[95racer]

Just tuck it in your waistband.


I prefer to secure my guns better than that. Tucking in waistband means rubber grips or a bunch of rubber bands on the grip. Guns sliding down and out of your pant legs onto the floor can cause unnecessary issues.

[trish]

To tuck or not to tuck. That is the question.
Whether 'tis enhancing in one's own mind
To suffer the risk of manhood
Or take arms holstered into the public square
To exercise an ancient and misunderstood right,
One that is a daily source of heartache
And causeth many of us innocently to die.
Who would bear arms would that others die of them
Put but himself and his family at death's dark door,
And thereby puts their dreams to sleep at muzzle's end.

[AlexisDVyne]

To tuck or not to tuck. That is the question.
Whether 'tis enhancing in one's own mind
To suffer the risk of manhood
Or take arms holstered into the public square
To exercise an ancient and misunderstood right,
One that is a daily source of heartache
And causeth many of us innocently to die.
Who would bear arms would that others die of them
Put but himself and his family at death's dark door,
And thereby puts their dreams to sleep at muzzle's end.

That's funny.. :)

I prefer not to tuck when ever possible.. Wear a long loose fitting top that just covers it so you can't tell.. way more comfy than trying to hide it..

But sometimes it needs to be concealed..

Eventually.. I hope there is some type of regulation of firearms in the USA.. Then you can be more civil like us Canadians and just use a knife or your bare hands rather than waiting 6 months for a firearms license..

:banana:

[Erika1487]

I live just outside the city limit in the middle of bum fuck ohio. The police are 20 minutes away from me, Hail Satan for my double barrel 10 gauge!!!

[buttslinger]

If you are intellectually inclined, and reason and logic are not only your guide, but the guide you feel everyone should follow, then it just follows to reason that guns hurt much more than they save.

Lots of Republicans think Democrats talk down to them, just because they went to some fancy schamcy college.
Lots of Republicans think Democrats not only want to take their guns, they want them to hug trees and suck cocks.

Since half the country is PRO-GUN (or whatever) it seems like game over. Unless you want gestapo brownshirts to start kicking down doors. You almost have to hope a gang of 10 year olds attacks a city, with automatic weapons, and kills thousands of people, that might be the only thing that shakes people enough to yell for stricter control of guns.

At least in Iraq they shoot people in the name of Allah, over here we kill people for stupid personal problems, or accidentally, or for street cred.

As a country, we may be crazier than Iraq. Or, maybe Wise Men shun the Govt for good reason. Maybe all this gun violence is Justice, USA-GOD Style.

I know whenever I'm kinda lost, and don't know which way to turn, I ask myself "What would Jack Bauer do?"

[trish]

I live just outside the city limit in the middle of bum fuck ohio. The police are 20 minutes away from me, Hail Satan for my double barrel 10 gauge!!!
I know bum fuck Ohio rather well. No need for a double barrel 10 gauge there, nor any other kind of gun. Relax, set aside the paranoia and read a book.

[trish]

Since half the country is PRO-GUN (or whatever) it seems like game over.Except a majority of Americans are for more stringent regulations governing the ownership of firearms, access, carry, magazine capacity, etc. A decade ago over 50% of homes had a firearm. Today it's below 40%. What stands in the way of sanity is not the populace, but NRA and gun lobbyists.


If you are intellectually inclined, and reason and logic are not only your guide, but the guide you feel everyone should follow, then it just follows to reason that guns hurt much more than they save. Amen brother.

[buttslinger]

Except a majority of Americans are for more stringent regulations governing the ownership of firearms, access, carry, magazine capacity, etc... What stands in the way of sanity is not the populace, but NRA and gun lobbyists.

I've heard both FDR and Obama say "You've got to make me do it" In other words, people come up to the President and say WE"VE got to do this or that, when in fact the Prez can't do anything until both the House and Senate sends him a Bill to sign or veto. In that sense, the people have to yell louder than the gun lobby, but they don't. Congress doesn't do anything unless it has a gun to it's head.

[trish]

In that sense, the people have to yell louder than the gun lobby, but they don't. Congress doesn't do anything unless it has a gun to it's head. So true. Even though the majority are for stricter firearm legislation they aren't as loud as the belligerent gun toting minority. Sane people have better things to do with their time and their money than spend it lobbying congress on a single issue. With gun nuts its an avocation__ writing letters in local newspapers, trolling comment sections, facebooking their diatribes, writing representatatives, buying gun magazines thus financially supporting the industry, buying more guns, toting them in public spaces__ it's exactly what they want to be doing with their time. Ya want to tell 'em, "Get a fucking life and stop supporting the taking of life."

[Erika1487]

I know bum fuck Ohio rather well. No need for a double barrel 10 gauge there, nor any other kind of gun. Relax, set aside the paranoia and read a book.

My shotgun sets on the mantle, unloaded. I am reading a good book "Our Bodies Ourselves The Boston Women's health book collective"

[buttslinger]

People immigrate to this country for
$7.50 minimum wage,
Walmart,
and Shopper's Food Warehouse.
That's the bottom line.

Now WHERE to draw the line on selling guns, cigarettes, beer and wine, sugar-cereal, it's not clear if that is the individual's job, or the government 's job.

The LONG-RANGE goal of Obamacare is going to be EASING OUT lung cancer and diabetes by regulating or taxing smokes and sugary foods into non-existence. Both big business and ordinary Americans love cigarettes and Super Big Gulps. And .44 Magnums.

Loving what's not good for you is the Right of Every American.....
that's why Health Insurance costs are so high.
And Murder Rates.
Where do you draw the line?

[martin48]

Dildo-wielding boys teach gun safety in viral ad: ‘If they find it, they’ll play with it’



http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/27/dldo-wielding-boys-teach-gun-safety-in-viral-ad-if-they-find-it-theyll-play-with-it/

[trish]

If it has any similarity to a penis, they'll play with it...and I don't mean just the kids but the Dad's too. Don't embarrass yourself, leave the toy penises at home.

[95racer]

I know bum fuck Ohio rather well. No need for a double barrel 10 gauge there, nor any other kind of gun. Relax, set aside the paranoia and read a book.


Ya, nothing bad can happen in rural areas :rolleyes:

Thinking that certain areas have no crime could get you hurt.

[trish]

I live in a rural area. I know there's crime. You just don't need a gun to deal with it.

[Prospero]

Fascinating article on what the constitution REALLY says about guns... and interesting to read that the NRA has a quotation from the Constitution relating to guns in its lobby - but with the key phrase abut well regulated militias omitted!

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/second-amendment-guns-michael-waldman

The Second Amendment Doesn't Say What You Think It Does
Michael Waldman pokes holes in claims that the Constitution protects an unlimited right to guns.
—By Hannah Levintova | Thu Jun. 19, 2014 6:00 AM EDT

"To the framers, that phrase 'a well-regulated militia' was really critical," says Michael Waldman. The Shelby Star/Jeff Melton/AP
Less than a month after the December 2012 Newtown massacre, the National Rifle Association's then-president, David Keene, warned that the new White House task force on gun violence would "do everything they can to strip Americans of their right to keep and bear arms, to essentially make the Second Amendment meaningless." Three weeks ago, after a killer shot three people and wounded eight near Santa Barbara, California, conservative activist "Joe the Plumber" posted an open letter to the victims' families. "Your dead kids," he wrote, "don't trump my Constitutional rights."*


As America grapples with a relentless tide of gun violence, pro-gun activists have come to rely on the Second Amendment as their trusty shield when faced with mass-shooting-induced criticism. In their interpretation, the amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms—a reading that was upheld by the Supreme Court in its 2008 ruling in District of Columbia. v. Heller. Yet most judges and scholars who debated the clause's awkwardly worded and oddly punctuated 27 words in the decades before Heller almost always arrived at the opposite conclusion, finding that the amendment protects gun ownership for purposes of military duty and collective security. It was drafted, after all, in the first years of post-colonial America, an era of scrappy citizen militias where the idea of a standing army—like that of the just-expelled British—evoked deep mistrust.

In his new book, The Second Amendment: A Biography, Michael Waldman, president of the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University, digs into this discrepancy. What does the Second Amendment mean today, and what has it meant over time? He traces the history of the contentious clause and the legal reasoning behind it, from the Constitutional Convention to modern courtrooms.

This historical approach is noteworthy. The Heller decision, written by Justice Antonin Scalia, is rooted in originalism, the concept that the Constitution should be interpreted based on the original intent of the founders. While Waldman emphasizes that we must understand what the framers thought, he argues that giving them the last word is impossible—and impractical. "We're not going to be able to go back in a time machine and tap James Madison on the shoulder and ask him what to do," he says. "How the country has evolved is important. What the country needs now is important. That's certainly the case with something as important and complicated as guns in America."

Mother Jones: What inspired you to write this book?

Michael Waldman: I started the book after Newtown. There was such anguish about gun violence and we were debating, once again, what to do about it. But this was the first time we were having that conversation in the context of a Supreme Court ruling that the Second Amendment protects individual rights of gun owners. And now every time people debated guns, every time people talked about Newtown, they talked about the Second Amendment. I wanted to see what the real story was: What the amendment had meant over the years, and what we could learn from that.

MJ: What preconceived notions about the Second Amendment did the history that you uncovered confirm or debunk?

MW: There are surprises in this book for people who support gun control, and people who are for gun rights. When the Supreme Court ruled in Heller, Justice Scalia said he was following his doctrine of originalism. But when you actually go back and look at the debate that went into drafting of the amendment, you can squint and look really hard, but there's simply no evidence of it being about individual gun ownership for self-protection or for hunting. Emphatically, the focus was on the militias. To the framers, that phrase "a well-regulated militia" was really critical. In the debates, in James Madison's notes of the Constitutional Convention, on the floor of the House of Representatives as they wrote the Second Amendment, all the focus was about the militias. Now at the same time, those militias are not the National Guard. Every adult man, and eventually every adult white man, was required to be in the militias and was required to own a gun, and to bring it from home. So it was an individual right to fulfill the duty to serve in the militias.

"You can squint and look really hard, but there's simply no evidence of it being about individual gun ownership for self-protection."
MJ: You point out that the NRA has the Second Amendment inscribed in their lobby, but with the militia clause removed.

MW: Yes. That was first reported in an article in Mother Jones in the '90s. But I didn't want to rely on just that, so one of my colleagues went out to the NRA headquarters to look at the lobby. And she had her picture taken in front of the sign so we could confirm that it was actually still there!

MJ: Based on the history you've uncovered, do you think the founders understood there to be an unwritten individual right to arms that they didn't include in the Constitution?

MW: Yes. And that might be noteworthy for some. There were plenty of guns. There was the right to defend yourself, which was part of English common law handed down from England. But there were also gun restrictions at the same time. There were many. There were limits, for example, on where you could store gunpowder. You couldn't have a loaded gun in your house in Boston. There were lots of limits on who could own guns for all different kinds of reasons. There was an expectation that you should be able to own a gun. But they didn't think they were writing that expectation into the Constitution with the Second Amendment.

MJ: So then why focus on the Second Amendment and not the English Bill of Rights or other things the framers drew on that more clearly address individual gun ownership?

MW: We are not governed today, in 2014, by British common law. Law evolved, the country evolved. It was a very rural place. There were no cities. There were no police forces. It was a completely different way of living. So gun rights activists turned this into a constitutional crusade. Those who want more guns and fewer restrictions realized they could gain some higher ground if they claimed the Constitution.

MJ: You write that throughout most of the 20th century, the courts stayed out of the gun laws debate. What changed that led them back in?

MW: What changed was the NRA. In 1991, former Chief Justice Warren Berger said that the idea that the Second Amendment recognizes an individual right to gun ownership was "a fraud" on the public. That was the consensus, that was the conventional wisdom.

"Those who want more guns and fewer restrictions realized they could gain some higher ground if they claimed the Constitution."
The NRA has been around for a long time. It used to be an organization that focused on hunters and on training. In 1977, at the NRA's annual meeting, activists pushed out the leadership and installed new leaders who were very intense, very dogmatic, and very focused on the Second Amendment as their cause. It was called the "Revolt at Cincinnati." From there, the NRA and its allies waged a 30-year legal campaign to change the way the courts and the country saw the Second Amendment. And they started with scholarship. They supported a lot of scholars and law professors. They elected politicians. They changed the positions of agencies of government. They got the Justice Department to reverse its position on what the amendment meant. And then and only then did they go to court. So by the time the Supreme Court ruled, it sort of felt like a ripe apple from the tree.

They also moved public opinion. Now it's a pretty widely held view that it's an individual right. It's funny, I was just on a panel with Alan Gura, who argued the Heller case. And, you know, I gave him credit for being part of a really significant effort that changed the way we see the Constitution. What's funny is that he and other gun rights people deny it! They say, "No, this is what everyone thought all along, for 200-plus years."

MJ: What was the impact of the NRA's sponsorship of Second Amendment legal scholarship?

MW: They certainly supported a lot of it. The way it works in constitutional law is that legal scholarship plays a pretty big role. So there became a rather deafening roar of the pro-individual gun ownership model: They were publishing and reinforcing each other. Some of it was very useful, and I cite it in the book. And some of it, when you look at some of the claims, they are easily punctured. It reminded me of the people who write movie posters, in terms of pulling quotes out of context. Like this Thomas Jefferson quote—"One loves to possess arms." It is in serious law review articles. It's presented as proof of what the founders really meant. But what happened was Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to George Washington, saying, "Remember I sent you a bunch of those letters from when I was Secretary of State? Could you send them back to me? I think I'm going to get attacked for this position I made. I want to be able to defend myself: 'One loves to possess arms,' even though one hopes not to use them." It's a metaphor! But it's in these law review articles. It's funny! When you go to the NRA website, it's still there. You can buy a T-shirt that has the quote!

MJ: How is it that such questionable scholarship went so far—all the way to the Supreme Court?

MW: You'll have to ask the Supreme Court. The thing about the Heller decision that was especially concerning to me was that Justice Scalia said this was the "vindication" of his approach of originalism. But when it actually came time to doing the history, he skipped over the actual writing and purpose of the Second Amendment. Out of 64 pages [in the decision], only 2 deal with the militias. Which is what the founders thought they were talking about. One of the things that I hope people take away from this is that the original meaning is always important, but it is not the only way to interpret the Constitution.

MJ: What are your thoughts on the historical argument that the Second Amendment is a civil right protected under the 14th Amendment?

MW: After the Civil War, there were a lot of freed slaves who were terrorized by white vigilantes. One of the purposes of some of the framers of the 14th Amendment was to make sure that they get guns. Now, the Reconstruction government that enforced the 14th Amendment also had very strong gun laws, such as prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons. Just like the colonial period and the early revolutionary period, it was a very different time. What you had in the South was low-grade guerrilla warfare between the races. It's hard to draw the lesson of what we should do now, in our urban society where assault weapons are available for sale, from the Reconstruction era.

MJ: You write that in Heller, there was a big shift in how the case was argued: There were many references to colonial America, and very little about current gun laws and current patterns of violence. Is this the new normal for gun cases?

MW: This is the triumph, in some ways, of originalism—Justice Scalia's intellectual triumph in changing the way people make arguments in front of the Supreme Court. And yes, there are some other cases where it's been pretty common. What's interesting is that since Heller, there have been dozens of cases in lower courts. Heller said: Yes, there is an individual right, but it can be limited. And the extent of the limits wasn't really clear. Well, dozens of judges have ruled since then, and overwhelmingly, they have upheld district gun laws. They've said, "Yes, there's an individual right, but society, too, has a right to protect itself." So maybe Heller's importance is not so great. And as this judicial consensus has developed across the country to uphold gun laws, we haven't yet heard from the Supreme Court one more time. So I think the Supreme Court isn't done yet.

[buttslinger]

I doubt you would hear one person in the Country object to guns and hunting dogs in 1800, or in any Country.

I've read about two tribes in Africa living a hundred miles apart whose cultures were different as night and day, but I have no idea why the murder rate per capita is so different in the USA compared to Canada. Maybe there are more SNAKES in the USA (all kinds)

Maybe it's because when you have some spare time after work and tending to personal business you go to the gym and get on the treadmill for an hour. In Europe they take the entire month of August off.

I think Americans like to be wound up, half cocked, almost.

But the truth is that our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's no evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, Ohio—like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years, and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration and the Bush administration. And each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate. And they have not. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, and they cling to guns or religion, or antipathy toward people who aren't like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or, you know, anti-trade sentiment [as] a way to explain their frustrations.
-Obama 2008

[trish]

Thanks Prospero, for the Waldman interview. Unfortunately, once the Supreme Court meddles with and muddies the interpretation, it creates precedents and potential applications that make it difficult to turn back the clock. This conservative activist court is doing more damage to this nation than any outside force could ever muster.

[ohioguy13]

second amendment is clear and your interpretation of it is incorrect. Once people start interpreting my freedoms that's when it gets crazy. Do something about the violence on tv in film and video games guns have been around all 200 plus years of this countrys history the senseless violence has been around the roughly the same amount of time as grand theft auto generation. Funny how no one ever shot up schools the first 200 years of this country history isn't it? Even during the nations bloddiest times cival war ww1 ww2 The media doesn't report how the last school shooting was stopped in 20 seconds because they had an armed guard there. Funny how no one messes with politicians kids you know why? there are people there with guns guarding them. So look we have enough unemployed military folks looking for work why not hire a few to guard our kids? no that makes sense lets take guns away from all the law abiding folks that makes more sense. right ill get back to you on that!!

[trish]

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Yes, you're correct in that it’s pretty clear. The “right” to keep and bear arms (i.e. flintlock muskets and knives) is provisional; dependent upon the State maintenance of a citizen’s militia directly armed by the citizenry. Those kind of State militia vanished a century ago.

Make no mistake. You do have a federally granted right to keep and bear arms, but only because of the distinctly liberal, past and current interpretations the supreme court has bestowed upon the Second Amendment.

If there ever was an incident where a good guy with a firearm saved the day, it be all over the news. Why? Because reporters are whores for bylines.

Have a Happy 4th of July. Don’t forget to direct your celebratory fire directly overhead, as true to vertical as you can get it.

[trish]

The probability that a family member (most likely a child) will be shot by your firearm, is far greater than the probability that you'll ever use it to deflect a threat on you or your family's life.

[trish]

http://nyti.ms/1zg7MY1

[buttslinger]

I think the reason you never really hear an explanation for the gun violence is that not knowing is better than knowing. I'm sure the cops who have to go out and clean up these messes will tell you there is a very large population of drunks, hotheads, and just plain fuck-ups out there, ....I mean, that explains it, they understand it, but the cops just want to try and forget about it. I lived in a few roachy apartments when I was young, but I knew eventually I'd be making enough money to get outta there. I had a reason to stick it out. Just turn on an episode of "COPS" .....these tragedies don't normally happen in a really nice house with kids who are going to College, they happen in shitthole trailers or motels or poor sections of town. Places where HOPE is not on the horizon.

Most people look at the "HAVE NOTS" and build a stronger fence around their house.

I can't talk about this problem seriously without offering up a solution, and I really don't think there will be one until a minimum wage lines up with a life with some dignity where you can afford to maintain a solid family, through the hard times. That will take much more change than some gun bill with no teeth.

Until then, hey, it could be better, it could be worse.

[martin48]

You used to have some good leaders in the States. What happened?

[trish]

You used to have some good leaders in the States. What happened?Difficult to believe Ike was a republican. He built the interstate highway system, warned against the industrial military complex and advocated a progressive tax structure. The GOP used to be a political party, now it's a front for a few wealthy, wannabe plutocrats who effectively exploit the prejudices and irrational fears of the ignorant. Oh, yes...humans who watch Fox News and Duck Dynasty tend to be stupendously ignorant.

[danthepoetman]

....

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

oh I bet you read alot of gordon wood. and you regurgitate it from the text book. and you think your wicked awesome doing that and how how about dem apples and all that gordon wood business

[danthepoetman]

:D
Who's Gordon Wood? I know about "morning wood", I'm even well acknowledged with "evening weed", "Flash Gordon", "Flesh Gordon", but Gordon Wood... ? Nope.

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

does no one knows who gordon wood is?

[danthepoetman]

Well, not I...

[danthepoetman]

But I can tell you at what temperature Mr. Wood can be set ablaze...

[danthepoetman]

....

[danthepoetman]

I'm affraid Gordon Wood doesn't have anything to do with statistics anyways, doesn't he?

[danthepoetman]

Then again, it might be a matter of religion, and today, everything has religious rights...
...so says the Supreme Court of the Land, and Jezus...

[danthepoetman]

Or a matter of psychology...?

[danthepoetman]

....

[danthepoetman]

Fabulous logic!

[danthepoetman]

It's all about the Constitution!!

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

"well regulated" means "well trained" if you read the papers of what the founding fathers said. maybe you should read what people write who disagree with you or who are actual historians. just a thought


1690 Lond. Gaz. No. 2568/3 We hear likewise that the French are in a great Allarm in Dauphine and Bresse, not having at present 1500 Men of regulated Troops on that side.

The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.

Resolved , That this appointment be conferred on experienced and vigilant general officers, who are acquainted with whatever relates to the general economy, manoeuvres and discipline of a well regulated army.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

all men between the ages of 15-45 were in the militia.

[Prospero]

But they are not now ...so the guns should be banned. Simple

[buttslinger]

No matter what the statistics say, Americans are taxed taxed taxed. overt taxes covert taxes.
If you buy a big mac, fries, and coke you pay the taxes that Mickey Ds pays, you pay the taxes Coca-Cola pays, you pay the taxes the truckers pay, the potato farmers, the cattle farmer...not Mitt Romney...YOU!!!


And a ton of that cash goes to policing the world. Military Spending.
In the 1950s, Dad went to work 15 minutes away, Mom raised the kids.
In the Depression, we were broke. Stressful times. It is like a depression now, but they've learned how to manage it better, we work all day, get less.

All the Fox News Flagwavers think they are waving that flag for us, but they're really cheering on big business and big military. If you think of the United States as a UNION shop, our stewards are not doing a very good job. Americans are stressed because that's the way it's designed to be. If you drink fifteen cups of coffee a day, eventually you're going to shoot somebody.

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

But they are not now ...so the guns should be banned. Simple

can you source that? :D

[buttslinger]

can you source that? :D

This isn't Israel, man, we dunt need no stinkin militia, the only people who are going to invade us are immigrants. Don't believe everything you read.

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

but you do need sources for things you say.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

[trish]

Sorry. But the unorganized militia are those eligible for induction. They do not serve any military function other than to stand ready for induction should their services be required. They are not expected to maintain arms, nor are they expected rise in revolt against the government when it passes a Healthcare bill or a minimum wage bill. The second amendment grants the right to bear arms because inductees into the regulated militia were expected to supply their own arms. This is clearly not the case today. We don't want ordinary civilians to have the armament of soldiers laying around in their basements and living rooms. The second amendment is an antiquated vestige of the days of blunderbusses, muskets and flintlocks.

Nothing wrong with the sport of hunting and target shooting, but carrying weapons around in the marketplace (whether they're in view or carried furtively) is stupid, hazardous and a danger to the public heath. Using a military style weapon as a crutch is kina stupid too ->

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/man_shoots_kills_girl_while_us.html



.

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

nice tangents.... can you ever stay on point?

the constitution is still law. just because you think a part is irrelevant doesnt change that.

no one said they were expected to maintain arms... but can

[buttslinger]

What's the point of carrying a gun unless you want to kill somebody.
I must admit that if Uncle Jed didn't carry heat, he never would have found that bubblin' crude......(oil, that is)

There are laws on the books that say you have to have somebody walking in front of your car fifty feet waving a lantern at night.

If some Chicago street gang calls themselves Militia, can they kill their enemies? Plenty of people kill somebody and get off on a technicality. That's the Law.

Anyway, it was legal for the US Military to kill 100,000 Iraqi civilians, but that doesn't make it right. Or good.

Linda, you and your buds have every right to walk around with guns, but if you ever accidently shoot somebody, you're gonna be introduced to a whole lotta laws. If you want to join a Militia, join up and go to Afghanistan. I think you know all this Militia talk is bullshit.

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

I am in the militia. every person between the ages of 17 and 45. so you dont like laws so we can take them away without going through the proper procedures? and why cant you people stay on topic

"If some Chicago street gang calls themselves Militia, can they kill their enemies? Plenty of people kill somebody and get off on a technicality. That's the Law."

stop talking about things you know nothing about. and they are militia did you see my source? i

[Prospero]

Fetishist in love with guns appears under a new id. There are so many insane folk in your gun loving nation. It is a sick obsession.

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

how am I crazy? everything I have said I have proven. the anti-gun people go on tangents and never source anything they say

[Prospero]

Yes crazy obsession with guns when you look at the body count in your nation. Too many guns in the hands of lunatics. It is a signal of insanity when archaic notions are more important than the lives of children. If the constitution genuinely confers such a right to let ant idiot own a gun the it is surely time for it to be amended. But the evil Gun lobby block all controls. Yes that insane.

[trish]

No linda, you're making what is known as a category mistake: Chicago street gangs are not a militia. I'm over 17 and under 45 and I'm not in any of the well regulated militia to which the second amendment refers. Yes I'm in that subset of the population to which U.S. Code Section 311 refers, but that is not the well regulated militia referenced in the second amendment. Those militia no longer exist. If you want to find modern grounds for preserving the second amendment you'll have to look elsewhere...perhaps you can argue it establishes the equality of ammosexuals with other gender identities.

[buttslinger]

It's good that the gun people make their case, I'm a mental midget and lazy, so I'm not going to hire a lawyer to see if you are 100% correct, in fact I'm not even sure what you're saying, we were all in a Militia and didn't know it?
I would rather tangent off into 2014 than fixate on some Constitutional justification for digging machine guns. It sounds like when Dick Cheney's lawyers found the best justification for shooting someone in the face when you're drunk.
Linda Darling, you're already ahead. You're winning. Why complicate your case with some cherry you picked off the Sean Hannity tree?


If you made your point and nobody knows what the fuck you're talking about, please break it down and woo us over to your side. I'm not trying to be milittous, I've never even seen one of these Militias you're talking about. What do they look like? Where do they live?

[danthepoetman]

Let me just post these statistics again... These are not compelling enough on their own??!

[Turlington]

Uh, oh!

http://civictribune.com/dod-insider-details-obamas-plans-confiscate-registered-firearms-2015/

[danthepoetman]

Uh, oh!

http://civictribune.com/dod-insider-details-obamas-plans-confiscate-registered-firearms-2015/

It would be nice. But I rather think it's an hysterical extreme right wing article. No one wants to seize all weapons in the US. No one has such power.

[Prospero]

Spot on Dan. The right is so full of absurd paranoia. It is a shame though that is there is no such plan.

[thombergeron]

Speaking of “sourcing”…


1690 Lond. Gaz. No. 2568/3 We hear likewise that the French are in a great Allarm in Dauphine and Bresse, not having at present 1500 Men of regulated Troops on that side.

Do you consider it relevant that the source you're quoting is a 325 year old British tabloid? Are you at all familiar with any of the legal or academic thinking on the topic of gun rights that has been undertaken in either the 20th or 21st centuries?


T`he project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, nor a week nor even a month, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people and a serious public inconvenience and loss.

You're clearly capable of cutting-and-pasting a small part of it, but perhaps you could briefly summarize Hamilton's larger point in Federalist No. 29.


Resolved , That this appointment be conferred on experienced and vigilant general officers, who are acquainted with whatever relates to the general economy, manoeuvres and discipline of a well regulated army.
--- Saturday, December 13, 1777.

What relevance could this passage possibly have to anything? A narrow military staffing regulation that predates the U.S. Constitution? And yet you ask if your opponents can “stay on point?”


the constitution is still law. just because you think a part is irrelevant doesnt change that.

So in your view, you take the literal text of the Second Amendment, interpret that text solely through a definition written 120 years later in the Militia Act of 1903, and boom, done. That’s all you need to know.

You might consider, however, that there may be a few other pieces of legislation and some court decisions that are relevant to your argument. For instance, regarding your convenient conception of the “unorganized” militia, you might consult the Selective Service Act of 1917 or the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940, as a start.

You might also consider that numerous restrictions on private gun ownership have been found to be constitutional, despite your assertion that “everyone is in the militia.” The federal assault weapons ban survived several constitutional challenges, though it was never challenged on Second Amendment grounds. But numerous state-level assault weapons bans have survived Second Amendment challenges, most recently in New York earlier this year. Antonin Scalia, in the Supreme Court’s District of Columbia V. Heller decision, listed various types of firearms that could be banned from private ownership under the Second Amendment.

The Second Amendment does not guarantee you an unlimited right to possess firearms. You may think it does, but that’s only because you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[8bit]

i'm conflicted on the matter, as i'm very much for stricter gun control, especially with the recent influx of school shootings and such which seems to be more of a uniquely american problem. sure there is the breivik murder in norway among others, but the problem is highly reported on here in the u.s.

i mean lets get real, guns are not ever going to be banned. they're too integral to american culture, but there are too many people who fear "obama takin' muh guns away", and its absolutely ridiculous -- much like the anti-government sentiment that gun owners seem to carry as if their semi-automatic weapons are of any use against a government that has automated drone strikes and the most militarized police forces among first world countries.

arms manufacturing is part of the defense manufacturing industries, which is the largest and most highly profitable sectors in the u.s., among that is the amount of jobs that they fill with employees.

politically and historically, large defense contractors such as ratheon, boeing, northrop grumman, general electric, general dynamics, honeywell, westinghouse, dow chemical, etc, are republican in nature and are all large employers of engineers in the u.s., of which is only next to nursing in the highly in demand jobs that remain domestically as years and years of shipping jobs overseas thanks to people such as republican meg whitman. all while they prattle on about how illegals are taking jobs from americans, when it is them and their companies who willfully ship more and more jobs overseas for the bottomline.

we are so entrenched in militarisation that a vast majority of our modern advances have all come from defense spending, such as DARPA and the invention of the internet. this culture of death is much too large for any single person, or president, to halt -- and this is what makes it so uniquely american. no other empire in the world has held all seven seas in its possession, while being only being 300~ years old.

this system of how our country functions is downright despicable and morally unsound, but it is also comparably the most effective

[I_made_linda_lovelace_gag]

show me the law that says everyone isnt in the militia.

they asked me since when did "well regulated" mean a certain thing. well it meant that when they wrote it. so it was on topic from a question from dan.

[trish]

Show me the law that says everyone isn't a fish.

[timmartin]

I live in a crimson red state. Weeks before Obama I started seeing "Impeach Obama" bumper stickers. At the same time, local rock and country stations started claiming Obama was coming for your guns. Six years later the right is still spouting the same nonsense.
They are if anything a model of consistency.

[buttslinger]

The ego-inflated gun lobby is like the blind man describing an elephant, you have to see the system of laws as a whole, not a trunk or a tusk or a tail. People don't buy guns for the one minute of their entire life that they might actually need one, they want one for the immediate self gratification it gives them. I'm not knocking self gratification, but jerking off in public is a short range fix that might signify other issues going on in your life besides your right to free speech. If you look at life and all the laws as a whole, there are a thousand things you need in life more important than a gun.

That being said, my buddy had a pair of vintage Colts in a real nice leather holster, and when I strapped those babies on it felt better than sex. It felt really good. The leather. The weight. Step back motherfucker!!! haw haw haw.

[trish]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-shooting-range-instructor-dies-20140826-story.html

[timmartin]

Nine year old girl and an Uzi. What could possibly go wrong?

[buttslinger]

I'm guessin' the Platinum Package is the one where you get to kill a guy.
I wonder if the Hamburgers are any good?....

[fred41]

I'm guessin' the Platinum Package is the one where you get to kill a guy.
....

They release one of those pesky ATF agents into the desert and you get to hunt and kill him...but it isn't really dangerous because it turns out the agent is "farm bred", not wild...

...another typical canned hunt.

[fred41]

Nine year old girl and an Uzi. What could possibly go wrong?

...on top of that, she probably couldn't see him anyway - he did have camouflage on...

[fred41]

Oh and, for anyone that thinks that statement was insensitive cause someone died...
you're right.
...so I apologize for the poor nine year old girl , who might be traumatized for the rest of her life because, no matter what people tell her, she 'may' believe for the rest of her life that she was, at least partially to blame, for killing that instructor...
...when , in fact,...the folks most "partially to blame" were her stupid ass parents.




...SMDH at people thinking the best vacation for their nine year old little girl would be firing an uzi.

[flabbybody]

wondering what kind of people would think its appropriate for a 9 year-old kid to learn how to shoot an automatic weapon. Maybe her dad was going to take her out and kill a few bears, or a couple of thousand. Now they'll have lots of time to wallow in their gun obsessed misery

[buttslinger]

When I was about her age we went with the scouts, or school, ...whatever, to the FBI HQ for a guided tour, and at the end an agent fired off an entire clip from a tommy gun, we were digging it!!!
If you asked the Moms of America to list in order what is bad for the fabric of these United States : Guns, Booze, Marital Infidelity, or Transsexuals, they'll say boys will be boys, but trannys are just plain sick.

Guns came over on the Mayflower. They're SUPPOSED to be dangerous! And while the need has passed, the want hasn't.

Guns are just one more problem in the mix with racism, poverty, terrorists, crime, nobody's going to quit their job to tackle these pressing issues. They'll complain that Congress should do something about it. Even shock value has lost it's shock value. People flock to sensationalism. Flock, I say!!!

[Turlington]

I'm still waiting for this ban folks keep talking about...

[timmartin]

Oh and, for anyone that thinks that statement was insensitive cause someone died...
you're right.
...so I apologize for the poor nine year old girl , who might be traumatized for the rest of her life because, no matter what people tell her, she 'may' believe for the rest of her life that she was, at least partially to blame, for killing that instructor...
...when , in fact,...the folks most "partially to blame" were her stupid ass parents.




...SMDH at people thinking the best vacation for their nine year old little girl would be firing an uzi.
As my better half observes: the parents will go to their graves thinking that they've done nothing wrong.

[Silcc69]

wondering what kind of people would think its appropriate for a 9 year-old kid to learn how to shoot an automatic weapon. Maybe her dad was going to take her out and kill a few bears, or a couple of thousand. Now they'll have lots of time to wallow in their gun obsessed misery

It was in Arizona.

[yodajazz]

It was in Arizona.

Meanwhile here in Ohio, a Black man was killed inside a Walmart by police, holding a toy gun (perhaps an air gun) that was on sale in the store. He was not behaving in a threatening manner, I understand. A couple in the store, who saw him with the object started following him, telling others that they were in danger, and called police. Also a bystander died in the parking lot, running away from the scene, in an apparent panic.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cops-kill-man-walmart-toy-gun-bystander-dies-incident/

[yodajazz]

Meanwhile here in Ohio, a Black man was killed inside a Walmart by police, holding a toy gun (perhaps an air gun) that was on sale in the store. He was not behaving in a threatening manner, I understand. A couple in the store, who saw him with the object started following him, telling others that they were in danger, and called police. Also a bystander died in the parking lot, running away from the scene, in an apparent panic.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cops-kill-man-walmart-toy-gun-bystander-dies-incident/

A more recent version of the story.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/26/video-shows-police-shot-ohio-man-on-sight-as-he-leaned-on-toy-gun-in-walmart-attorney-says/

Two more Black children growing up, without knowing their bio dad. I would not be surprised if they grow up with anger issues.

[trish]

Not long ago a Florida Mom is arrested for letting her seven year old child walk alone to a nearby park to play. (http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/living/florida-mom-arrested-son-park/)

But nothing happens to the parents of a nine year old girl who accidentally killed a firearms instructor with an Uzi while her parents caught the whole incident on film. WTF? Why is Arizona allowing children to shoot these kinds of weapons?

[martin48]

.....

[Silcc69]

.....

ahahahahahah So fuckin true.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

From my FB...

So you can't drive until you're 16, smoke until 18, drink until 21 but you can FIRE AN UZI at 9 years old??? Something is SERIOUSLY wrong with those numbers.

[Ben]

From my FB...

So you can't drive until you're 16, smoke until 18, drink until 21 but you can FIRE AN UZI at 9 years old??? Something is SERIOUSLY wrong with those numbers.

Or watch a horror flick....
Kids can't watch, say, John Carpenter's Halloween but can pick up an Uzi....
I'm not saying kids should watch horror flicks. I'm simply pointing out laws are strange, nonsensical....
And, too, we're exposed to so much violence in this culture.
The culture -- especially our movies -- are violence saturated.
Do movies glorify guns? What explains the gun culture?
Anyway, all of this makes sense... in a gun culture, as it were.
I'm not opposed to guns. I, personally, don't own one. But a 9 year old girl shooting a gun, well, it's, I agree, there's something wrong....

[trish]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-idaho-professor-foot-shoot-20140903-story.html

[martin48]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-idaho-professor-foot-shoot-20140903-story.html


I've done that plenty of times in my lectures

[martin48]

I suppose there's some hope for America


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11073524/US-homeowner-jailed-for-17-years-for-shooting-teenage-accident-victim-on-his-porch.html

[trish]

I've done that plenty of times in my lecturesYeah. Don't you just hate when that happens?


I suppose there's some hope for America


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11073524/US-homeowner-jailed-for-17-years-for-shooting-teenage-accident-victim-on-his-porch.html What are they thinking in Detroit?! They should've bought that dude a box of ammunition to replace the shell he wasted on killing that girl. This is America after all. Get with the program people. I can't wait 'til I can buy some ten thousand dollar prison paintings signed by Theodore Wafer on eBay.

[Prospero]

The irony of the title of this thread always gets me. I wonder if this site is still going in 20 or 30 years time if it'll still be here. Record to a dashed hope from way back when....

[trish]

The irony of the title of this thread always gets me. I wonder if this site is still going in 20 or 30 years time if it'll still be here. Record to a dashed hope from way back when....Two thousand years in the future, American cyber-archeologists will dig up this thread, the title will strike fear in the populace and there will be a rush on gun stores. The price of radioactive bullets will skyrocket and it will be impossible to produce blasters fast enough to satisfy the spike in demand.

[buttslinger]

That reminds me. I got to get to the gun store today and pick up a few AK-47s before the New Improved Cold War starts up again.

Is it me or does I.S.I.S. sound like some made up pulp novel name they give to a terrorist corporation that James Bond ultimately has to un-do?

[fred41]

Is it me or does I.S.I.S. sound like some made up pulp novel name they give to a terrorist corporation that James Bond ultimately has to un-do?


I remember Isis being a Saturday (or Sunday) morning T.V. show about a woman who has the power of the Goddess Isis...kinda like a female Capt. Marvel which was also on around then...

[buttslinger]

As messed up as this country is with guns, it's downright tranquil compared to the Middle East. Do they sell those Toyota pick-up trucks with machine guns already mounted in the back, or is that an option?

The USA came out of WWII smelling like a rose compared to the rest of the world. Maybe we don't have a healthy fear of guns because we haven't had a war on our turf since 1865. You forget how hard life can be.

[buttslinger]

In the USA you get to name not only YOUR poison, but the guy's next to you. If 51% of the country wants machine guns, then the other 49 has to live with it. I guess the theory is what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You can't vote til your 21, that's why abortion is legal

[fred41]

voting age in USA is 18.

[buttslinger]

voting age in USA is 18.



thanks for the edit, Fred.

[95racer]

Yeah. Don't you just hate when that happens?

What are they thinking in Detroit?! They should've bought that dude a box of ammunition to replace the shell he wasted on killing that girl. This is America after all. Get with the program people. I can't wait 'til I can buy some ten thousand dollar prison paintings signed by Theodore Wafer on eBay.


Tragedy for all involved. He should have called 911, kept the door shut, and stood ready with his firearm.

Lessons to be learned on both sides. If you drive under the influence of alcohol and drugs, crash your car, go to a strangers house in the wee hours of the morning, pound on the door to the point of damaging it (as testified in the court trial), you could be putting yourself in a bad situation. I have only seen two reverends mention this during discussions about this ordeal.

This is just outside of Detroit and B&E's happen all the time. People's guards are up especially at night. You do this at my house 911 is called and there's ammo waiting on the other side of the door.

[trish]

The first quote was a response to classroom incident that took place in Idaho. Not a tragedy for all.

The lesson in the second incident is this asshole would shot Ms. McBride regardless of whether she was under the influence or not. Did Mr. Wafer ask himself, "What kind of burglar knocks loudly and yells for help?" No. He quakes in his bedroom slippers like some kind of ammosexual. He's the kind of asshole who keeps ammo waiting behind the door, opens the door and shoots blindly.

I actually had a drunk pound on my door at 1:30 in the morning a few years ago. It was a teenager who could barely stand up. I drove him to his house. Of course I made him hang his head out the car window the whole trip for fear he'd throw up.

Pound on my door at night and I fucking guarantee I won't shoot you.

[timmartin]

Tragedy for all involved. He should have called 911, kept the door shut, and stood ready with his firearm.

Lessons to be learned on both sides. If you drive under the influence of alcohol and drugs, crash your car, go to a strangers house in the wee hours of the morning, pound on the door to the point of damaging it (as testified in the court trial), you could be putting yourself in a bad situation. I have only seen two reverends mention this during discussions about this ordeal.

This is just outside of Detroit and B&E's happen all the time. People's guards are up especially at night. You do this at my house 911 is called and there's ammo waiting on the other side of the door.
New Years Eve 1970, it's blizzard conditions. Sometime after midnight a teen, drunk and disoriented, kicks in our front door. My dad who had a gun didn't shoot him. Rather, he calls the authorities.
See how easy that is?

[trish]

http://nyti.ms/WZ9Vbd

[broncofan]

Are b and e's perps usually females who are by themselves who knock on the door? Ridiculous. If I were really scared, I might not answer the door. Or I might ask questions and make someone stand outside while I call help for them. If I saw the only problem was that she was drunk I'd let her in. I don't have a gun to shoot anyone with. Seems like 95racer is a fucking horrible human being, but I hate to sound judgmental.

Edit: I notice Trish and I make some similar points. I only read what she and Timmartin had to say after I posted.

[trish]

A football coach in Kansas is accosted by five or six irate parents after a game a few days ago. One of the mob lifted his shirt revealing a firearm. They proceeded to punch, kick and beat the coach until the coaches wife fired her gun into the air. The coach then scrambled to his car and retrieved his own gun. Of course ammosexuals are billing this as a case where a couple of good guys with guns saved a man from getting a beating. I just think people are lucky nobody got killed. This is incident is just an example of the fun activities you can look forward to as more and more people carry lethal weapons. I wondering how long before a referee is shot dead in the field.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/kansas/article2098586.html

[broncofan]

A football coach in Kansas is accosted by five or six irate parents after a game a few days ago. One of the mob lifted his shirt revealing a firearm. They proceeded to punch, kick and beat the coach until the coaches wife fired her gun into the air. The coach then scrambled to his car and retrieved his own gun. Of course ammosexuals are billing this as a case where a couple of good guys with guns saved a man from getting a beating. I just think people are lucky nobody got killed. This is incident is just an example of the fun activities you can look forward to as more and more people carry lethal weapons. I wondering how long before a referee is shot dead in the field.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/kansas/article2098586.html
The American dream. Honestly, since when did this country aspire to so little that people would celebrate such brazen stupidity? In an environment like that, how many children will grow up to be scientists or poets or develop a passion for history? How many will become abusive alcoholics?

If your first toy is a replica of a gun and your first field trip is to a gun range and your sweet sixteen is celebrated by firing a gun from a helicopter at a moose, what will you do for your 21st? Drink beer out of a moose carcass? Where does this lead? Pretty soon you find yourself claiming that when a man shoots a woman for knocking on his door it is a learning lesson all around. I have finally reached the age where I can say, "when I grew up, our learning lessons involved books and numbers...literature and algebra respectively." No cretins, no weapon flashing, no moose.

And yes, I am pouring on the liberal snobbery.

[yodajazz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9BRuQjc_08&list=UUQcPBLsq9rRc5TxDqSz_Dog

Here is an apparent case where a legal gun owner, Shaneen Allen, with a concealed carry permit, faces a mandatory three year sentence, for crossing into a state that does not have those laws. I know the answer, but I'll ask the question anyway. Where is the NRA and other gun advocates when such things happen to poor people, and people of color? The woman claims to have been robbed twice, in the previous year. When things like this happen, know that it must have been a person of color. Another question, what's with all the mandatory sentencing laws in this country? What about special circumstances? For example this woman, had no criminal record. What about the cost to her two children?

Doing some research, here is a current (9-18-14) article.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/388337/glimmer-hope-shaneen-allen-charles-c-w-cooke

[yodajazz]

Follow up from an earlier post. Grand jury declines to indict police, who killed man in Walmart, even though they recognized he committed no crime. Earlier news report said, the victim was shot from the back, by the police.

http://wdtn.com/2014/09/24/walmart-grand-jury-decision-in-announcement-at-1130/

[fred41]

Just read this...figured I'd post it. I guess sometimes a firearm does come in handy:
http://nypost.com/2014/09/26/woman-beheaded-by-co-worker-in-oklahoma/

[fred41]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9BRuQjc_08&list=UUQcPBLsq9rRc5TxDqSz_Dog

... Where is the NRA and other gun advocates when such things happen to poor people, and people of color? The woman claims to have been robbed twice, in the previous year. When things like this happen, know that it must have been a person of color. Another question, what's with all the mandatory sentencing laws in this country? What about special circumstances? For example this woman, had no criminal record. What about the cost to her two children?

Doing some research, here is a current (9-18-14) article.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/388337/glimmer-hope-shaneen-allen-charles-c-w-cooke

I think you're attacking some of the wrong people in this case (especially while citing an article an article in "the national review"...what kind of a news organization do you think that is?)

Watch this interview and take notice of who she thanks ...and who she doesn't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCGf9becqkQ

...glad to see there is finally a good outcome...but it should never have gone this far to begin with.

...and I know this is probably inappropriate to say, but I can't help myself: she's a total cutie pie.

[trish]

http://nyti.ms/1sDcyyi

[fred41]

http://nyti.ms/1sDcyyi

The nice thing is...I think those stats are starting to take hold. I know at least two people (both LE officers) who just got rid of their firearms after retirement. There was a time when that would be unheard of.

I think I've stated my personal views on this before. I'm not against people having guns depending on their personal situations...but I'm hardly a pro gun nut either. I'll occasionally print stories where a firearm came in handy...because those situations are rare, but in all fairness they do exist.

...but I'm old now, and some of my views have changed...some of them dramatically...and some by folks on this very forum. Unlike lots of people - I actually listen - and there are some excellent debaters here (I'm looking at you Trish ).

My job requires me to have a firearm (I'm not a cop though). I never bring it home. My life style doesn't really allow for it and I have way too many personal vices to make that a safe choice anyway. I honestly couldn't live with myself if I ever shot someone out of sheer stupidity. If I have a weapon after retirement, it will be because of where I chose to live...and it will be a rifle or a shotgun...and it will be locked up.

I've gotten myself out off hairy situations without one...and I would hate to think that I would have unnecessarily drew it when I didn't really need to if I had it on me. At this point in my life I would hate to rely on a concealed weapon when I don't really have to...it becomes a crutch.
I really, really do understand why some folks need one...I just don't want that to be me.

[fred41]

It's bad enough that I have a driver's license...I'm a horrible driver...lol.






....luckily though, I've been told I drive slower than most people's grandmothers.

[broncofan]

I think gun ownership is a paradigmatic collective action problem. You have ten people in a room and nobody is armed, everyone is safe. You introduce one gun and nine people feel unsafe. The next person to arm themselves feels much more secure, until everyone has a gun. Now you have ten people and ten guns. Is that room more or less safe than the room with ten people and zero guns?

I know some of you might say that we can't have that gun free room because some guns are already out there. That's true, but there are also police officers and others who might need guns as a necessity who provide some check to those criminals. And more guns equals more volatility and more paranoia that someone else has a gun.

This is even assuming that people are perfect gun owners and can handle them safely...you would still have less collective safety. What is fairly obvious is that most people aren't even safer as individuals when you give them a gun.

[trish]

My job requires me to have a firearm (I'm not a cop though). I never bring it home. My life style doesn't really allow for it and I have way too many personal vices to make that a safe choice anyway.
Okay, now you got me thinking your some sort of hard boiled, noir PI like Easy Rawlins. I can definitely understand that a firearm may be a necessary tool of one’s profession.


I'm looking at you Trish
Thanks for the kind words, Fred. I probably mentioned before that I too am the owner of several firearms, hunting rifles to be precise__gifts from my Dad. When I was growing up in rural Pennsylvania he’d take me hunting. We’d go for deer, rabbit, pheasant and turkey. I now live in the Midwest. My guns are in Dads gun safe in Pennsylvania. Until recently we’d hunt together on the few occasions I got home. But it’s not a rural as it used to be and it’s getting harder to find a safe place near home to hunt. Dad’s less interested in the sport these days and I was only interested in the opportunity to share something important with him. He’s seriously thinking of getting rid of his firearms, and he has my permission to sell or turn mine in as well.


I think gun ownership is a paradigmatic collective action problem. You have ten people in a room and nobody is armed, everyone is safe. You introduce one gun and nine people feel unsafe. The next person to arm themselves feels much more secure, until everyone has a gun. Now you have ten people and ten guns. Is that room more or less safe than the room with ten people and zero guns?
Nice characterization of the paradox, bronco. Those first few people who armed themselves only feel safer. They aren’t. What they really feel is not safer, but the thrill of power. The thrill of being a dangerous person to mess with. Without the gun, they don’t feel that. The right to play with dangerous toys in the public square is too often the right to put others at mortal risk for the sake of personal vanity.