The FAST Approaching Gun Ban

[buttslinger]

Machines guns aren't completely banned. They are heavily regulated.

You're absolutely right. Shut my mouth.

[irvin66]

I live in a country where the police are unarmed. Do I feel safer? You can bet your life on it.

Yuuup me too! But I do not know if I feel safer for that reason?
but there is one thing I do not understand, what should a private person have machine guns for? common semi-automatic rifle manages more than enough one would think.....:geek:

[fivekatz]

The US is a strange place to figure out. You can go to a typical Red State and find the following:

Against any form of Gun Control

Pro Life

Against Government spending on social services

...and those states get more money from the Federal government than they pay in.


Strange contradictions.

[Ben]

President Obama Wants To Protect Children? Why Not End U.S. Drone Strikes? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldUHR_8-piY)

[Ben]

Danny Glover Claim vs History of Racism and Gun Control - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcjKuV1TOkE)

[trish]

Two more reasons to do something about firearms in this country.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/11/justice/delaware-court-shooting/index.html

[robertlouis]

Two more reasons to do something about firearms in this country.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/11/justice/delaware-court-shooting/index.html

Hmmm. "Not an act of terrorism" :confused: Any other way to define a nutter who goes into a courthouse and shoots people at random? FFS.

You have terrorism on your streets, every day in every town, and until some kind of sanity prevails and gun ownership is more tightly controlled, it's a war you can never win.

[Ben]

Hmmm. "Not an act of terrorism" :confused: Any other way to define a nutter who goes into a courthouse and shoots people at random? FFS.

You have terrorism on your streets, every day in every town, and until some kind of sanity prevails and gun ownership is more tightly controlled, it's a war you can never win.

The gun culture, in part, is based on a lot of men [it's mostly men] being terrified of their government.
And, too, racism. As both Chris Hedges and Michael Moore pointed out: it's white people [again, mostly males] being terrified of blacks....
Now, you can agree or disagree with both Hedges and Moore.
Again, I'm not opposed to people owning guns. I don't see the problem with someone owning a shotgun and hunting.
Or even, say, target shooting.
I'm not a gun owner. Never have been.... I don't feel I need it for protection. That's what the police are for....

[robertlouis]

The gun culture, in part, is based on a lot of men [it's mostly men] being terrified of their government.
And, too, racism. As both Chris Hedges and Michael Moore pointed out: it's white people [again, mostly males] being terrified of blacks....
Now, you can agree or disagree with both Hedges and Moore.
Again, I'm not opposed to people owning guns. I don't see the problem with someone owning a shotgun and hunting.
Or even, say, target shooting.
I'm not a gun owner. Never have been.... I don't feel I need it for protection. That's what the police are for....

Men terrified of their government??? Delusional paranoid morons.

And as the point has often been made here, even some idiot with a massive personal arsenal could do nothing against the might of the entire US army. Too many survivalist handbooks and dumb movies. Sheesh.

[fivekatz]

Men terrified of their government??? Delusional paranoid morons.

And as the point has often been made here, even some idiot with a massive personal arsenal could do nothing against the might of the entire US army. Too many survivalist handbooks and dumb movies. Sheesh.The very foundation of the United States is that its citizens were skeptics of government, opposed to paying taxes for the common good and deeply believed that "all men" meant white, land holding men.

The line of reason that citizens must be armed against the government is insane, but it is one that is used to sell Joe Six Pack on why major gun producers should continue to do business without regulation.

For those that don't live day-to-day in the US we might be quite a puzzle. Working class Americans without insurance are sold on the idea that Obamacare is an attack on their freedom, though that attack is their freedom to be denied insurance if they become unemployed and have pre-existing conditions. That unions are an attack on their freedom, though the attack would be their right to collectively negotiate with powerful business owners for better working conditions.

Guns have become one of the great wedge issues is US politics. In 1970's the GOP discovered that the majority of Americans were homophobic, scared of socialism, against abortion, equal rights for women and did not want the government to tell them they can't own guns even if they did not own them.

The wedge issues haven't changed since 1970 but the demographics have. Lot's of the folks polled in the 70's have died and a new generation does not give a shit if about sexual preference, has grown up with a working mom and thinks she should be paid like a man, believe that government should make people's lives better and aren't quite as scared that the government is coming to take all the guns away.

But there is an almost irrational belief among many in this my country that the right to own arms is the 11th commandment. It makes what should be an easy problem to tackle one that will take up great political capital and time. And that just makes people like the Koch Brothers and Karl Rove happy as hell, because it reduces the shelf space left to work on corporate excess, climate change and other issues which are equal dangers to the republic. Because for all the disciples of Ayn Rand don't get it, the Republic won't last long with great income and justice inequity as it exists today.

[notdrunk]

The gun culture, in part, is based on a lot of men [it's mostly men] being terrified of their government.
And, too, racism. As both Chris Hedges and Michael Moore pointed out: it's white people [again, mostly males] being terrified of blacks....
Now, you can agree or disagree with both Hedges and Moore.
Again, I'm not opposed to people owning guns. I don't see the problem with someone owning a shotgun and hunting.
Or even, say, target shooting.
I'm not a gun owner. Never have been.... I don't feel I need it for protection. That's what the police are for....

Castle Rock v. Gonzales and other court cases don't agree with your idea that the police is your protection.

[buttslinger]

The Gun Lobby is about MONEY, it's not really about the second ammendment, or freedom, or Iwo Jima.
It's like Advertising, you spend some money so you can get back a whole lot more money in return, and just like Budweiser has lots of scantily clad buxom women in their ads, to grab that twenty-year-old-not set in their ways yet- demographic, the gun lobby plays to the dim-witted Fox News crowd waving the American Flag all over the place crowd. Stirring them up using Madison Avenue types who make a living finding out what makes people buy something, or vote for somebody, or even what jury will get somebody out of jail for the rest of their life.

Guns have a rich historical history, I used to get off reading SHOTGUN NEWS, and I don't believe people kill people, I believe STUPID people kill people. Fighting Corporate America to the death over money in politics is a good fight. Even the US Supreme Court is owned by the Military-Industrial Complex!!!!Yes, trickle-down is bullshit, but somebody else signs my paycheck, and to a large extent, if you're working for a living, you're taking what they're giving.

[trish]

The NRA is pushing for colleges and universities to allow students to carry guns. Not a good idea.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/13/us/shooting-leaves-2-college-students-dead-in-maryland-police-say.html?smid=pl-share

[Prospero]

It might have made all the difference at Kent State back in the 1970s though....

[Stavros]

In what way may I ask?

[Prospero]

Foolishly casual response by me S... but the students might have shot back at the National Guard... or should i call em "Campus Bums" like the late unlamented VP at the time.

[trish]

They might have (and compounded the tragedy), but they would not have. They were the kids poking daisies stems into guardsmen's gun barrels.

[Prospero]

Indeed they were... or at best waving anti-war banners, as i recall (I think the flower power thing was a couple of years before).

[buttslinger]

Originally the back cover of American Beauty was to have a picture of the Grateful Dead carrying guns like cowboys. (At the time, they considered themselves to be much like wild-west outlaws.)
But Robert Hunter vetoed it.
He said:
"When American Beauty came out, there was a photograph to go on the back which showed the band with pistols. They were getting into guns at the time, going over to Mickey's ranch, target shooting...they were just enjoying shooting pistols. (For example, we got a gold record and went and shot it up.)
I saw that photo, and that was one of the few times I ever really asserted myself with the band and said 'No - no picture of the band with guns on the back cover.' These were incendiary and revolutionary times, and I did not want this band to be making that statement. I wanted us to counter the rousing violence of that time. I knew that we had a tool to do it, and we just didn't dare go the other way."

[yodajazz]

New NRA ad.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nra-goes-offensive-over-high-capacity-magazine-ban-162148044--politics.html;_ylt=AjNtKoM40Yn7q49r0BuWvK.bCMZ_;_y lu=X3oDMTRrYWdkMXN0BG1pdANCbG9nIFNwZWFybWludCBPcml naW5hbCBMaXN0BHBrZwNkM2VkMzRjYy05YzZjLTM0NzgtODI4M y1kMTE2ZmQwYWFkNjEEcG9zAzcEc2VjA01lZGlhQkxpc3RNaXh lZExQQ0FUZW1wBHZlcgMzYzNiZWFmMi03NzhkLTExZTItYjdlZ S02OGM5MGEwMGE2YTY-;_ylg=X3oDMTNpc2ZvcjQyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDZDNlZDM0Y2MtOWM2Yy0zNDc4LTgyODMtZDExNmZkMG FhZDYxBHBzdGNhdANwb2xpdGljc3xjb25ncmVzcwRwdANzdG9y eXBhZ2UEdGVzdANUZXN0X0FGQw--;_ylv=3

or try this:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nra-goes-offensive-over-high-capacity-magazine-ban-162148044--politics.html

It's all about fear. Control through fear.

"God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and of a sound mind."~~2nd Tim 1:7

[flabbybody]

^^^ must be some kinda new weed floating around ^^^

[fivekatz]

New NRA ad.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nra-goes-offensive-over-high-capacity-magazine-ban-162148044--politics.html;_ylt=AjNtKoM40Yn7q49r0BuWvK.bCMZ_;_y lu=X3oDMTRrYWdkMXN0BG1pdANCbG9nIFNwZWFybWludCBPcml naW5hbCBMaXN0BHBrZwNkM2VkMzRjYy05YzZjLTM0NzgtODI4M y1kMTE2ZmQwYWFkNjEEcG9zAzcEc2VjA01lZGlhQkxpc3RNaXh lZExQQ0FUZW1wBHZlcgMzYzNiZWFmMi03NzhkLTExZTItYjdlZ S02OGM5MGEwMGE2YTY-;_ylg=X3oDMTNpc2ZvcjQyBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDZDNlZDM0Y2MtOWM2Yy0zNDc4LTgyODMtZDExNmZkMG FhZDYxBHBzdGNhdANwb2xpdGljc3xjb25ncmVzcwRwdANzdG9y eXBhZ2UEdGVzdANUZXN0X0FGQw--;_ylv=3

or try this:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/nra-goes-offensive-over-high-capacity-magazine-ban-162148044--politics.html

It's all about fear. Control through fear.

"God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and of a sound mind."~~2nd Tim 1:7Fear is a tool that has been used in politics forever. This goes far back, where the politics were religion, monarchy, republics or dictatorships.

The gun lobby uses fear of race, government, social classes beautifully and having an African-American President has been heavenly for them.

The gun industry because the NRA / Gun sales pitch has been built on fear of the urban people of color, socialism (i.e. progressive government) and of the total prohibition of firearms, made more money and sold more guns during Obama's first term than ever before and the run on guns and ammunition started on 11-05-08 and did not start.

Even though Obama totally avoided the third rail of gun control in his first campaign and term, the NRA supported Mitt Romney even though Mitt had signed some of toughest gun regulations as Governor of MA while Obama's only executive action as President regarding guns was to make it llegal to carry firearms in National Parks.

Now why would the NRA do that? Because they sell the fear of progressive politicians and more importantly they count on the fear of whites of people of color. It would have clouded future story lines and like so many other folks they thought Romney would probably lose which would be good for business but that if he won he would not be a gun safety advocate because he wasn't in MA any longer and Romney was a creature of the moment not a man of principle and in greater degree than most men who have run for the POTUS.

The NRA are as good at being a manipulative force on public opinion as there is in the US today. And they have no shame in touching off hot buttons of fear, whether those hot buttons are based on race, class or political orientation. Probably the only thing that bums LaPierre out is that he can't figure out how to weave the LGBT community into his message.

[Jericho]

^^^ must be some kinda new weed floating around ^^^

Someone on the GF was asking where Grim went.
I'm thinking that guy dried him out and smoked him! :ignore:

[robertlouis]

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Ummm.

WTF?

This is gibberish.

[broncofan]

Ummm.

WTF?

This is gibberish.
When I first looked at it I thought I was losing my mind.

[fivekatz]

When I first looked at it I thought I was losing my mind.Personally I thought it was Donald Rumsfeld explaining where the WMDs were in Iraq.

[maxpower]

There's a link to some website in Spain in the middle of all that garbage. At first I thought it was a bad Google translation job, but even that couldn't be this bad.

[martin48]

Ummm.

WTF?

This is gibberish.


To write your own paper of such quality go to http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo

[trish]

To write your own paper of such quality go to http://www.elsewhere.org/pomoanybody got an aspirin?

[martin48]

anybody got an aspirin?

Another of your headaches

[trish]

Yes dear, maybe tomorrow night.

[robertlouis]

Yes dear, maybe tomorrow night.

There are at least twenty men on HA who dream of that possibility, you know. :praying::praying::praying:

[yodajazz]

There are at least twenty men on HA who dream of that possibility, you know. :praying::praying::praying:

At least 21.

[trish]

The joys and rewards of guns never cease: Texas school official shot during firearm training.

Oh the inanity!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/28/van-texas-school-worker-injured-gun-training/1953273/

[robertlouis]

The joys and rewards of guns never cease: Texas school official shot during firearm training.

Oh the inanity!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/28/van-texas-school-worker-injured-gun-training/1953273/

Yep. Remember the twat from the NRA who suggested in the wake of Newtown that schools would be safer if there were armed guards in every one?

Talk about shooting yourself in the...... oh, never mind. :banana:

[Prospero]

The Blackboard Jungle?

[trish]

http://www.wlns.com/story/21445345/4-year-old-boy-killed-in-accidental-shooting

Another child dead because of firearm abuse.

[robertlouis]

http://www.wlns.com/story/21445345/4-year-old-boy-killed-in-accidental-shooting

Another child dead because of firearm abuse.

No doubt the NRA's response would be to put more guns in every home and start gun awareness in parallel with potty training. Fucking crazy.

[martin48]

No doubt the NRA's response would be to put more guns in every home and start gun awareness in parallel with potty training. Fucking crazy.

No, not the presence of a gun at fault but that the parent should have locked it away (or the child - I prefer this option:)) - you know the arguments that are used.

[trish]

On February 27, in a Walmart parking lot, a man pulled his concealed weapon and fired on a shoplifter who was running to his own car to escape security. The bullets ricocheted and damaged nearby vehicles. The shoplifter got away. The assailant was upset to find himself being arrested. He claimed he was fearful for his life. He was rather hoping he’d be held up as a magnificient example of a good guy with a gun stopping crime.

Just this week, when a Walmart manager refused to recognize a customer’s print out of a one dollar coupon as valid, the customer pulled out her Smith and Wesson .38 Special, waved it the employees and threaten them. When police caught up with her in the parking lot, she refused to surrender her weapon, saying she had a legal permit to for concealed carry and no one was going to take her gun. The nutcase was summarily tazed into submission.

We can go on forever with stories like this. Or maybe we can’t.

http://walmartshootings.blogspot.com/

[Prospero]

It would be good if these were stories from "the bad old days" told around a fire in good company. instead of horror stories from the front line of daily life.

[trish]

A police officer assigned to a school in Highland NY (you know, we need a good guy with a gun in every school these days) accidentally discharged his weapon and shot a locker.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/06/guns-school-officer-shoots/1966639/

[buttslinger]

We, the People, are the Law here. The Police don't actually stop crime, they mop up the mess after the crimes are committed. Part of being a vibrant nation is blundering forward and letting the chips fall where they may. You won't see that written in the Constitution, but it's true. Tightening up the gun laws is common sense, but you can't proscecute people for being poor, or desperate, or crazy.

[robertlouis]

you can't proscecute people for being poor, or desperate, or crazy.

Sadly, that seems exactly what the coalition government in the UK seems dead set on as consistent policy these days.

[yodajazz]

On February 27, in a Walmart parking lot, a man pulled his concealed weapon and fired on a shoplifter who was running to his own car to escape security. The bullets ricocheted and damaged nearby vehicles. The shoplifter got away. The assailant was upset to find himself being arrested. He claimed he was fearful for his life. He was rather hoping he’d be held up as a magnificient example of a good guy with a gun stopping crime.

Just this week, when a Walmart manager refused to recognize a customer’s print out of a one dollar coupon as valid, the customer pulled out her Smith and Wesson .38 Special, waved it the employees and threaten them. When police caught up with her in the parking lot, she refused to surrender her weapon, saying she had a legal permit to for concealed carry and no one was going to take her gun. The nutcase was summarily tazed into submission.

We can go on forever with stories like this. Or maybe we can’t.

http://walmartshootings.blogspot.com/

This is why I don't own or carry a gun. The possibility of being robbed, is very remote. But the possibility of becoming angry is not. Am I am generally a very easy going person. Like last week a woman refused to validate my parking, because the ticket was the wrong color. It would have cost her a thing. All she had to do was to stamp it, and let me worry about the parking garage people. Now, if I was strapped... So actually I wasn't, and I gave it to someone else who took care of it. I had to wait a few minutes for it to be taken care of. And then the parking attendant was still going to charge me, because she didn't look to see that the ticket was stamped on the back. Now, if I was strapped...

[trish]

On January 8th this year, a man with a license to carry a concealed weapon sat across from his wife at a restaurant in Lenexa, Kansas and accidentally shot his wife in the knee.

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/01/08/4000708/officials-review-accidental-shooting.html

The only thing that can neutralize a stupid man with a gun is strict gun regulation. Some guns shouldn't be available to the general public, some people shouldn't be allowed to carry and no one (short of the police and the military) should have a license to carry secretly.

[hippifried]

Well that Lenexa woman should have had her own concealed gun. Now she's forced back to the sexually segregated bad old days, where she'll have to kill this guy in his sleep! Wake up, sheeple!!
THEY'RE
COMING
TO TAKE
YOUR
GUUUUNS!!!!!

Just walk out to the middle of the street, & start shooting in all directions. You're bound to get a few bad guys before the police politely ask you to surrender your weapons.

[yodajazz]

On January 8th this year, a man with a license to carry a concealed weapon sat across from his wife at a restaurant in Lenexa, Kansas and accidentally shot his wife in the knee.

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/01/08/4000708/officials-review-accidental-shooting.html

The only thing that can neutralize a stupid man with a gun is strict gun regulation. Some guns shouldn't be available to the general public, some people shouldn't be allowed to carry and no one (short of the police and the military) should have a license to carry secretly.

The question is whether or not he was under the influence of alcohol, at the time of the incident. That would make his act carry a penalty. Looking at that article made me do some research. Until this I did not know that the law had passed here in Ohio to carry concealed weapons in bars. I'm speechless.

[buttslinger]

I think everybody understands the world would be better off with NO guns at all, but they've got these guys called LAWYERS, and for a fee, they'll argue that guys died at Valley Forge for the freedom to bear arms, and guys used guns to help defeat slavery at Gettysburg, and guys shot nazis because that was the only way to stop them from taking over the world.
60 percent of gun deaths are suicides. What is WRONG with those people???!!!!!

[trish]

Depression (just the ordinary everyday variety that sometimes worries a teenager for any number of reasons, lost love, bullying, bad grades, etc. etc.), anxiety, emotional panic + easily available, easy to use, quick and sure weapon in the home = increased likelihood of suicide.

[trish]

...I did not know that the law had passed here in Ohio to carry concealed weapons in bars. I'm speechless. Concealed-carry and stand-your-ground laws have swept the country in a very short span of time. The boiler plate for these laws was written and pushed by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) then taken up by conservative state legislators and forced through their respective states. ALEC is a comfy club of corporate interests, conservative think tanks and legislators who get together to caucus in expensive hotels and write boiler plate laws that protect and advantage their business interests and that implement free-market, no-government, anti-tax, anti-entitlement ideologies.

[fivekatz]

It is an interesting time in the US. Colorado is working as I type on a series of laws that would bring some common sense to gun policy in the gun happy Rocky Mountain State.

Personally, while I fear there will be more mass shootings and the daily death and injury toll from our overly loose gun safety regulations in the US, in the long run I think Newtown will be a watershed moment. It was the moment that gun manufacturers became the 21st version of Big Tobacco.

[robertlouis]

It is an interesting time in the US. Colorado is working as I type on a series of laws that would bring some common sense to gun policy in the gun happy Rocky Mountain State.

Personally, while I fear there will be more mass shootings and the daily death and injury toll from our overly loose gun safety regulations in the US, in the long run I think Newtown will be a watershed moment. It was the moment that gun manufacturers became the 21st version of Big Tobacco.

....and the NRA has become the 51st state.

[trish]

A woman in St. Petersburg, Fl. was making frozen waffles in her oven when she the .38 caliber glock ammunition that her friend was storing in the oven exploded. She took some shrapnel in the leg but survived the incident.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/22/aalaya-walker-bullet-in-oven_n_2736040.html


It's not enough to keep guns and ammunition out of the hands of the mentally ill. Every one wishing to purchase a gun should be required to score above average on the Stanford-Bennett intelligence test or prove otherwise that they are not lethally stupid.

[Stavros]

An OVEN??? On that basis she ought not to even have a gun! Where does she put her underwear, in the fridge?

[trish]

...Where does she put her underwear, in the fridge?In the dog days of Summer? Well, yeah. In the freezer section, between the rocky road ice cream and the frozen waffles. Bon appetite.

[fred41]

It's not enough to keep guns and ammunition out of the hands of the mentally ill. Every one wishing to purchase a gun should be required to score above average on the Stanford-Bennett intelligence test or prove otherwise that they are not lethally stupid.

:) I wouldn't have a problem with this.

Usually this would just be another way that evolution weeds out the stupid...but when the actions of the stupid endanger more than just their own life span on this planet, well then we often have to enact a few additional laws.

[trish]

When is comes to guns in the U.S., stories of stupidity, craziness and abuse abound. There's a new story everyday that lends evidence that the very presence of guns endangers those in proximity.

Yet, gun ownership in the U.S. is on the decline. From roughly half of all households in 1970 to roughly one third of all households in the present day. Fewer people own guns. Yet gun sales in the U.S. as on the rise. That's because frightened, unpatriotic gun "enthusiasts," fearful of losing their capacity to revolt against the nation they pretend to love, the are stockpiling weapons and ammunition. Manufacturers are happy to put more and more guns into the hands of lethally stupid nuts and more and more dollars into their own pockets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?smid=pl-share

[buttslinger]

Majority rules, so how come 5% of the US owns half of everything? Why do the 5% own the Art, the real estate, the power, the influence, while the 95% own the 5 dollar gas, the 5 dollar K-mart shoes, and all the chicken-wings, doritos, and 2-litre pepsi-colas?
Because the Republican Party scoops up all those DUMMY votes. Offering Americans God, Guts, and Guns is real economical. If Obama is going to sew up the House in 2014, he's going to have to woo that ATF crowd- beer, cigarettes, and guns......American as Apple-Pie.
The Republicans are on the ropes right now, for the first time since Truman, the Democrats are seen as the stronger party on National Defense. Newtown is going to be the side door to stop gun trafficing. Time to make Dems the Law & Order party. And get everybody to sign on.

[martin48]

It's this easy ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21712820

[yodajazz]

When is comes to guns in the U.S., stories of stupidity, craziness and abuse abound. There's a new story everyday that lends evidence that the very presence of guns endangers those in proximity.

Yet, gun ownership in the U.S. is on the decline. From roughly half of all households in 1970 to roughly one third of all households in the present day. Fewer people own guns. Yet gun sales in the U.S. as on the rise. That's because frightened, unpatriotic gun "enthusiasts," fearful of losing their capacity to revolt against the nation they pretend to love, the are stockpiling weapons and ammunition. Manufacturers are happy to put more and more guns into the hands of lethally stupid nuts and more and more dollars into their own pockets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?smid=pl-share

Two policeman injured by a man using an assault rifle, Sunday.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/03/two_middlefield_officers_shoot.html

[robertlouis]

Hmmm. For a thread entitled "The FAST approaching gun ban", some four months on there doesn't seem to be much in the way of positive progress.

Are the gun lobby's tactics working or is Obama playing a long game?

[buttslinger]

Hmmm.
...Are the gun lobby's tactics working or is Obama playing a long game?

I think Obama believes everything you've said....guns lying around can simplify tragedy, I've seen it in my personal life.
But there's problems in finger pointing, when you personalize the simple minded, hair trigger yahoo accidentally blowing a hole in your car radio, you're giving the opposition ammo, I believe. Because they'll say "What about abortion? Having it so easily available promotes a generation of kids to gang bang away behind the high school bleachers, and if some simple minded daughter gets knocked up, oh well, she'll just throw that little pink thing in the trash and be back fornicating and taking drugs by tonight"
How can you stick your nose in somebody's business about a gun that may or may not hurt somebody, and then defend the right of a woman to murder her baby?

I guarantee you Obama's been playing an eight year game since day one, and guns and abortion are quick sand bogs he'd rather avoid. -

[Willie Escalade]

God bless America...

Chicks who Love GUNS - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C917QJH9GNM)

[Prospero]

I can't stand it. That video is sooo depressing. Let these silly chumps be parachuted into Syria in their Bikinis with their wonderful guns. My god.

[hippifried]

Bikinis are okay, as long as they cover their hair.

[trish]

Phallic metaphor unbound. (You gotta pity the dickless wonders who need these props to their manhood).

[hippifried]

Phallic metaphor unbound. (You gotta pity the dickless wonders who need these props to their manhood).

Prop prop
jizz jizz
oh what a shot it is...

[yodajazz]

When is comes to guns in the U.S., stories of stupidity, craziness and abuse abound. There's a new story everyday that lends evidence that the very presence of guns endangers those in proximity.

Yet, gun ownership in the U.S. is on the decline. From roughly half of all households in 1970 to roughly one third of all households in the present day. Fewer people own guns. Yet gun sales in the U.S. as on the rise. That's because frightened, unpatriotic gun "enthusiasts," fearful of losing their capacity to revolt against the nation they pretend to love, the are stockpiling weapons and ammunition. Manufacturers are happy to put more and more guns into the hands of lethally stupid nuts and more and more dollars into their own pockets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?smid=pl-share

This happened here Monday.

CLEVELAND - A 12-year-old girl called 911 after being shot by her father early Monday morning.
Officers were called to a house on 104th Street near Madison Avenue just before 4 a.m.
The girl's mother, who was waiting outside, told police “my daughter is shot in there and she can't move.
Cleveland police said the father, Robert Arnold, shot himself in the head. His body was found in a second-floor bedroom and was pronounced dead at the scene.
Police said Arnold used a .380 Colt semi-automatic pistol. Three shell casings were recovered, along with three live rounds on the ground, the police report said.
The mother said her daughter spent the night at her dad's house, but it sounded like the two had a disagreement.


Copyright 2013 Scripps Media, Inc. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

[yosi]

Posted by Prospero in another thread

[robertlouis]

Posted by Prospero in another thread

I posted the same pic on another site, only to receive a response from an American suggesting I was dumb because, "There are so many more guns in the US, you moron."

FFS.

[trish]

Posted by Prospero in another thread


I posted the same pic on another site, only to receive a response from an American suggesting I was dumb because, "There are so many more guns in the US, you moron."

FFS.I recognize the syndrome. The very thought of a gun will give the enthusiast an erection, draining the blood from his brains and turning him into stupid bimbo bullet whore. These guys stagger around the U.S. quoting the 2nd Amendment like zombies chanting, "Brains, brains, must have brains."

[fred41]

The problem isn't the numbers.
They are still high today.
The problem is that people should still do some basic fact checking and at least make sure that their poster is somewhat accurate. That poster is from the 1980's...West Germany should be the dead giveaway. I'm not saying the figures are vastly different now (I didn't check)...all I'm saying is before you put up a soundbite...at least make sure it's accurate.



(BTW I mentioned this the last time it was posted)

[trish]

2010 CDC study found that in the U.S. for that year there were

11,078 homicides by gun,
19,392 suicides with guns,
851 accidental gun deaths,

23,273 non-fatal gun injuries.

There are studies more recent than 2010. Congress, under the GOP, has demanded that the CDC cease any studies of gun violence.

[trish]

Sorry, auto correct "decontracted" the "aren't" in my last post. The following links may clarify the restrictions I mentioned that have been placed on the CDC in regards to gun violence.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-nra-kills-gun-violence-research-2013-1

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/02/06/170844926/debate-rages-on-even-as-research-ban-on-gun-violence-ends

[fred41]

Sorry, auto correct "decontracted" the "aren't" in my last post. The following links may clarify the restrictions I mentioned that have been placed on the CDC in regards to gun violence.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-nra-kills-gun-violence-research-2013-1

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/02/06/170844926/debate-rages-on-even-as-research-ban-on-gun-violence-ends

This is a pretty good quote I took from your second link:
RAND Corp.'s Dr. Art Kellermann, a health policy analyst, is well-acquainted with the political history of the debate.

Kellermann grew up with guns in East Tennessee. "Having a gun in your house was about as controversial as having a washing machine," he says. He says he was quite familiar with the idea of keeping a gun in the house for protection.

"But as a young ER doc, I wasn't seeing too many bad guys shot by homeowners," he says. "I was seeing kids shot by another child while they played with a gun they had found. I saw spouses who had shot one or the other in a family dispute. And I saw older individuals and sometimes teenage kids who used a gun to either take their life or attempt to take their life."



(I apologize if it was already used and I missed it.)

[fred41]

Okay, so anyway, I tried to update that poster as best I could (considering I have a hangover)using this site: www.gunpolicy.org

I tried to use data from the same (2010) of each country,but that isn't always possible, but you can always go to the site and enter everything on your own.

Japan - forget it...it's just very, very low.
UK - 2010: 155
Switzerland - 2010 : 279 (combining 2010 homicides with a 3 yr.avg.of suicide)
Canada - I just came up with 781 avg.data from 2006 & little slips of paper..lol
Israel - 2009 : 139
Sweden - 2010 :138
Germany - 2010 : 903
U.S. - 2010 : 31,672

you can also look up the annual rate of gun deaths per 100,000...but it isn't always available for every country.

[yosi]

Kellermann grew up with guns in East Tennessee. "Having a gun in your house was about as controversial as having a washing machine," he says. He says he was quite familiar with the idea of keeping a gun in the house for protection.




Protection from what? from other poeple with guns.....

[trish]

This is a pretty good quote I took from your second link:
RAND Corp.'s Dr. Art Kellermann, a health policy analyst, is well-acquainted with the political history of the debate.

Kellermann grew up with guns in East Tennessee. "Having a gun in your house was about as controversial as having a washing machine," he says. He says he was quite familiar with the idea of keeping a gun in the house for protection.

"But as a young ER doc, I wasn't seeing too many bad guys shot by homeowners," he says. "I was seeing kids shot by another child while they played with a gun they had found. I saw spouses who had shot one or the other in a family dispute. And I saw older individuals and sometimes teenage kids who used a gun to either take their life or attempt to take their life."



(I apologize if it was already used and I missed it.)


Protection from what? from other poeple with guns.....God knows what these hillbillies need protection against. Other hillbillies, revenuers and the ATF one can only presume. But I do appreciate his testimonial as an ER doctor...

"But as a young ER doc, I wasn't seeing too many bad guys shot by homeowners," he says. "I was seeing kids shot by another child while they played with a gun they had found. I saw spouses who had shot one or the other in a family dispute. And I saw older individuals and sometimes teenage kids who used a gun to either take their life or attempt to take their life."

Guns are very rarely USED for protection. They are used quite often as security blankets. A gun bought for protection is simply a very dangerous security blanket and just as childish.

[hippifried]

I don't have a problem with guns or the lame arguments in here from all sides. My problem is with the constant state of panic over the issue & use of the same tired rhetoric as a smokescreen to strengthen oligarchic control. It's disappointing to see people fall for it, over & over & over again. One's political bent only defines who you're scared of if you get suckered into the panic. The internet makes it easier. How many klan/nazis does it take, in the blogosphere or on Youtube whatever, to convince the stereotypical left that the goose steppers are on their way? How many to rile up the stereotypical right, who are already convinced that their government is the enemy? All kinds of wannabe "intellectuals" & blind ideologues will tell you how fucked up everything is, but can't pinpoint a cause or come up with a solution of any kind. It's just a power grab. "You can always hire half the poor to kill the other half." (attributed to Boss Tweed, but who knows...)

Nobody's trying to take your guns. The people telling you there is, are the same ones who are trying to take away your Social Security check. Think about it.

[trish]

Guns not only need to be kept out of the hands of the mentally ill, but also out of the hands of those who threaten domestic violence or have a record of domestic violence. Background checks should be designed to flag such risks.

http://nyti.ms/ZC2Ucs

[Prospero]

Surprise, surprise... democrats in the Senate have dropped the parts proposed legislation which would ban assault weapons because "it doesn't have enough support." Cowardly Republicans in the pickets of the NRA.

The title of this thread should be changed to - how the gun lobby has the American nation by the balls.

[thombergeron]

from a Twitter feed: @billmon1: Senate drops assault rifle ban. Rest will die in House. NRA raised ton $. Gun sales soared. Sandy Hook really worked out well 4 gun industry

[Prospero]

Yep a nation and its madness. Sigh....

[trish]

from a Twitter feed: @billmon1: Senate drops assault rifle ban. Rest will die in House. NRA raised ton $. Gun sales soared. Sandy Hook really worked out well 4 gun industry
Dropping the assault rifle ban may have been the smart thing for Sen. Reed to do. It just gives more conservative Senators (later Congressmen) an excuse to vote against the bill. The best strategy may be to put each item into a separate bill; e.g. a separate bill for background checks and the gun-show loophole, a separate bill for limiting magazine capacity, a separate bill for keeping guns from people with a record of domestic threats of violence, etc. At least then we get to see how the nuts in power segregate themselves among the issues.

[Ben]

Surprise, surprise... democrats in the Senate have dropped the parts proposed legislation which would ban assault weapons because "it doesn't have enough support." Cowardly Republicans in the pickets of the NRA.

The title of this thread should be changed to - how the gun lobby has the American nation by the balls.

NRA Wins Again? Assault Weapons Ban DROPPED

NRA Wins Again? Assault Weapons Ban DROPPED - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXkZ6QYT9WM)

[fivekatz]

Dropping the assault rifle ban may have been the smart thing for Sen. Reed to do. It just gives more conservative Senators (later Congressmen) an excuse to vote against the bill. The best strategy may be to put each item into a separate bill; e.g. a separate bill for background checks and the gun-show loophole, a separate bill for limiting magazine capacity, a separate bill for keeping guns from people with a record of domestic threats of violence, etc. At least then we get to see how the nuts in power segregate themselves among the issues.Perhaps it is a good political tact but IMHO that was not Reed's motive at all. The Senator is infamous for being in the NRA's pocket.

What is amazing is that public opinion polls on these issues and the willingness for elected officials to buck their great constituencies opinions on guns is a testimony to the power of special interests. Sad commentary on the state of American political realities IMHO.

[robertlouis]

Michele Bachmann says that Obamacare will "literally" kill people.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRH-0gxtyI8&feature=player_embedded#!

Good. So healthcare kills but guns don't?

Fuck me sideways.

[trish]

In America "literally" means "not necessarily so."

[robertlouis]

In America "literally" means "not necessarily so."

So Gershwin was really saying "It literally is so" in Porgy and Bess???

[fivekatz]

I remember the first time I ever heard Michele Bachman was when she was acting as a surrogate for McCain-Palin and went on an infamous rant about investigating "anti-American" members of Congress. I thought at the time that this woman was bat-shit crazy and would be drown in an absolute backlash for such McCarthy like proclamations.

That she became a major GOP figure and the the Tea Party success has over time showed me that the US has room for some really bat-shit crazy people who wrap themselves in supposed patriotism but actually are just inflammatory self-serving fools catering to a faction of the country that is scared shitless that the world is changing.

The fact that she nearly lost her gerrymandered district in the last election leaves hope that maybe, just maybe people are starting see through someone who proclaims they are for freedom and wants to hold un-American investigations, who proclaims she believes in the welfare of the people yet opposes a vehicle that will deal with 20 MILLION uninsured citizens.

Freedom to folks like Bachman simply means the capitalist elite are free to make money and pay less taxes, regardless of the impact on the other 99% of the country.

[fivekatz]

NRA litters Newtown with Robocalls and postcards urging people to oppose a ban on assault weapons. It takes brass...

WASHINGTON -- The National Rifle Association came under fire late Thursday from members of a gun-control advocacy group in Newtown, Conn., after reports surfaced of Newtown residents receiving robocalls and pro-gun postcards from the NRA.

The advocacy group, the Newtown Action Alliance, posted a Facebook message Thursday about the calls, prompting responses from people who said they'd received communications from the NRA and were upset by them.

"I received one of these," Newtown resident Christopher Wenis wrote on Facebook Thursday afternoon. "I was insulted and offended." Wenis told The Huffington Post in an interview Friday night that in the 36 hours since he first posted his response, he received two more robocalls from the NRA, one later on Thursday night and one Friday evening.

"I've got a 5-year-old son who went to preschool on the Sandy Hook Elementary School campus," Wenis explained. "And this was a really hard week for me on a lot of levels. These calls were the very last thing I needed."

Wenis said that he called the NRA twice to request that his name be placed on a "Do Not Call List" -- first on Tuesday and again Thursday. He said an NRA phone operator assured him he would be removed from NRA call lists. But the calls kept coming. By Friday night, Wenis said, he was desperate to be left in peace.

Another woman, Lisa Abrams, wrote on Facebook that she had "received a call and a postcard asking me to call my congressmen and tell them 'NO ASSUALT WEAPONS BAN' [sic] ... I was not happy and needless to say did just the opposite!"

Tom Maurath, a 40-year resident of Newtown, said he was having dinner with his family on Tuesday when the phone rang at 6:37 p.m. "Our caller ID announces who is calling, and when I heard 'National Rifle Association,' I jumped to answer the phone so my 6-year-old son wouldn't get there first," he told The Huffington Post in an interview. "Our son loves to answer the phone because it might be Grandma."

Maurath said he listened to a prerecorded message about Connecticut state gun legislation for about 30 seconds -- a call that he was stunned to realize took no account of who might pick up the phone.

"The idea that this message could have been delivered to a sibling of one of the families who lost children at [Sandy Hook Elementary School] is just appalling," he said.

In the months since the tragic school shooting in December, Newtown has become a focal point for the nation's renewed debate over gun control, as well as an international symbol of America's epidemic of gun violence. The Connecticut Legislature is considering a bevy of gun-control measures in the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre. On Tuesday, a bill requiring universal background checks for gun purchases in Connecticut cleared a key committee. The state already has a ban in place on military-style assault weapons.

This week Maurath also received a postcard from the NRA, which he shared with HuffPost. The blaze-orange card proclaims, "Despite public outcry, anti-gun legislators in the Connecticut General Assembly are aggressively forging ahead with numerous proposals that are designed to disarm and punish law-abiding gun owners and sportsmen."



(Rep. Dan Carter, mentioned on the card, is the state legislator who represents Newtown.)

Maurath said the script of the phone message sounded a lot like the postcard. He also said that at least a half-dozen of his fellow residents in Newtown had told him they received similar robocalls.

A spokesman for the NRA, which opposes the measures being proposed in Connecticut, said robocalls in the state were made to NRA members and supporters, and were designed to be informative about the legislation being considered.

As is the case in other states, "We have members, contributors, and supporters in Connecticut who expect us to do our jobs and keep them abreast of developments on the legislative front in their state," NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam told HuffPost.

Maurath, however, could think of no reason why he would have been singled out to receive such a call. A registered independent, he said he has "thought over and over about any reason I would have been on their lists, but there isn't one. I have zero connection to this group or any affiliated group."

Robocalls are nothing new for the NRA or for many large advocacy groups. Tax-exempt groups like charities and advocacy groups, as well as political campaigns, are exempt from many of the restrictions placed on commercial telemarketing calls by the Federal Trade Commission. It's common for advocacy groups on both sides of the political spectrum to purchase mailing lists and phone lists from other like-minded organizations, such as political parties that generally support the same issue platform. The NRA is known for being very protective of its member lists.

Maurath is still in shock over why Newtown residents weren't exempted from this round of NRA robocalls.

"There are only three phone number prefixes here in town, and it's less than three months after the most horrific tragedy imaginable," he said. "You'd think they could have scrubbed the list, just to be decent. Instead, you're making an unsolicited call with no opt-out that my children could answer.

[fivekatz]

Well 98 days since Newtown over 2,200 Americans have died via fire arms.

It appears we will again face 3 times the death and injury from firearms than we did from 9-11. 9-11 created a reaction where Americans overwhelming supported the gutting of constitution and engaged in the two longest wars in US history.

Yet somehow the power of special interests continues to make it possible for the US ignore that it is desperate in need of gun safety regulations and reduce the number of firearms, the easy access to military grade assault weapons and gun show loophole that allows individuals to end run existing gun safety regulations and registration.

Firearms are a far bigger danger to US citizens than terrorists. Many of the same people that believe Cheney and his lawyer Addington were correct in calling the Geneva Convention and its protection of POWs quaint, site an amendment to the Constitution that is over 200 years old and truly did not comprehend the 21st Century, the lack of impact that militias would have or the carnage that the right to bear unabated would create.

It actually is amazing to me how quickly news cycles kill popular opinion and how well capitalized special interests can kill change in the face of the overwhelming facts that the US gun laws are inadequate and are killing over 10,000 people each year. While I continue to hope the best for my country and truly love it, it is shameful and sad just how f'ed up we can be on critical issues, whether they be guns or climate change or white collar crime. For all the great things about America and the very real goodness of our citizens as a society we are lost people or should I say sheepeople?

[trish]

http://FunnyOrDie.com/m/7w3q

[fivekatz]

Here, here for Jim Carey!

[fred41]

Where,where?...There,there?

all kidding aside ..very funny video.

[fivekatz]

While funny a video the underlying problem is awful. It is rather amazing that the US is so behind the curve on this issue. Imagine if on average 12,000 Americans died at the hands of any source that did not have lobbying power of the gun industry. It would politically be impossible to to fight any legislation or executive action to stop that kind of carnage. If it was inflicted on the nation by a foreign source a declaration of war would to take place.

It was to me the ultimate in hypocrisy to see Karl Rove suggest that gun registration would create lists that the government would use to infringe on American's privacy and rights. This is the same man that supported the Bush Adminstration in the wire tapping and detention of US citizens without warrants that would have taken a mere 48 hours to get because the Administration said they felt the danger was too great in those 48 hours, while in reality in every case danger did not exist and they were at the direction of the Vice President were hell bent on establishing the imperial President, where he had greater power than the other two branches.

If Newtown won't wake up our leaders what will it take?

[yodajazz]

Never thought I'd be passing thru a gun shop last week. The ones with the banana clips really caught my eye. A clerk said that they are classified as pistols. But is is some sort of kit that can transform them into AK-47's. So even with an assault weapon ban, it apppears to me that some people can still get them.

[notdrunk]

Never thought I'd be passing thru a gun shop last week. The ones with the banana clips really caught my eye. A clerk said that they are classified as pistols. But is is some sort of kit that can transform them into AK-47's. So even with an assault weapon ban, it apppears to me that some people can still get them.

The clerk doesn't know what s/he is talking about. Under Federal law, an AK-47 is considered a machine gun. You can't simply buy a conversion kit to make an AK pistol into an AK-47. S/he was probably talking about converting the pistol into a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR). To modify the pistol into a SBR, you have to pay a tax stamp and do some paperwork including fingerprints.

By the way, the right term is banana magazine.

[buttslinger]

The Republicans in Congress don't give a shit personally about shooting off guns, ....weakening the virile gun lobby can only hurt their strength in the political arena and strengthen the democrats. Many people vote republican ONLY because they are the perceived GUN party. Being pro-gun does not take away one cent from the uber-rich either, most of the things the republicans stand for put money IN rich people's pockets, health care and free college loans take money OUT of their pockets. One percent of taxes for schools, roads, cops, hospitals....costs the average joe 500 bucks. But it costs the Koch Bros. millions. Every Yahoo that dreams of being Rambo translates into more money in the Koch Brother's pockets.

[hippifried]

By the way, the right term is banana magazine.

Sounds like a messy read. I suppose monkeys are the 'targeted' subscribers?

[trish]

How to convert your AK semi-automatic into an automatic weapon.

http://www.hackcanada.com/ice3/misc/ak47mod.txt

It's not recommended. It could be dangerous and it's definitely illegal. But many folks do it.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2797196/posts

[fivekatz]

Cruz, Paul and Rubio have all promised to use the filibuster to stop any gun control bill from coming to vote.

Obama is right, shame on them for forgetting so quickly. Cruz is the modern day Joe McCarthy so there is little surprise here and Paul's position is only as inconsistent as is the policy positions of most right wing GOPers pretending to be Libertarians, but Rubio is just an opportunoistic empty suit IMHO.

Sadly if same sex marriage is any example, right wing tools only learn from personal tragedy so while I wish no such thing on these empty hearts perhaps their positions would change if their loved ones were cut down in the prime of life by assault weapons and or unregistered weapons.

[trish]

A Pennsylvania man shoot his own groin and other gun related mayhem that happened just yesterday:
http://nyti.ms/170psJ5

[Prospero]

Gun control? Wisconsin is gonna be a hard nut to crack....

[trish]

Yeah. People point to gun violence in Chicago and say, "See, gun control doesn't work." They fail to mention that all a Chicagoan needs to do to buy a gun a step over to Wisconsin. What doesn't work is not having tight Federal controls on the proliferation of the tools of violence.

[robertlouis]

It appears that there's enough collective amnesia already about the horror of Sandy Hook to ensure that no meaningful reform will take place. I shake my head in sorrow for your country.

[hippifried]

I thought we already figured out that Lanza wouldn't have been able to kill as many as he did if the kindergarten students & teachers at Sandy Hook had all been strapped.

[trish]

That's right, Lanza would have had to compete with the other shooters. His kill count would have been lower, and the total death count a lot higher. Win-win!

[hippifried]

So as I walked past the pawn shop, this semi-automatic machine pistol kept talking to me, saying "Buy me. Fill me with bullets. Kill people.". So of course I bought it, along with a couple thousand rounds of ammunition & a kit to convert it to full auto. How do you say no to such a pleasant commanding voice? I'm not stupid though. I'm not going to finish the task until I get confirmation from the voice that I'm not crazy. It'd be so much easier to listen for a sign if those brats at that day care center next door would SHUT THE FUCK UP! Ok, calm again. No worries...

[trish]

Maryland man shot in chest during target practice.
Indiana man killed cleaning his gun. He didn't do it right.
Kansas men shoots himself in the leg.
Pennsylvanian killed when man trips with his gun.
Florida woman accidentally shot in the street.
IHOP guard in Ohio accidentally shoots and kills patron.

All happened today, March 31. And the day's not over yet.

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[buttslinger]

"Innocent until proven guilty"-NRA

[yodajazz]

So as I walked past the pawn shop, this semi-automatic machine pistol kept talking to me, saying "Buy me. Fill me with bullets. Kill people.". So of course I bought it, along with a couple thousand rounds of ammunition & a kit to convert it to full auto. How do you say no to such a pleasant commanding voice? I'm not stupid though. I'm not going to finish the task until I get confirmation from the voice that I'm not crazy. It'd be so much easier to listen for a sign if those brats at that day care center next door would SHUT THE FUCK UP! Ok, calm again. No worries...

Did the voice say anything about loaning money to strangers on the internet? Otherwise, your post warms my heart, to see the insane able to take advantage of thier Second Amendment rights.

[Willie Escalade]

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/
Probably gonna follow that blog...

[Willie Escalade]

What does everyone think about Cold Dead Hand? Going by the comments, it brings out the best - and worst - of folks.

http://FunnyOrDie.com/m/7w3q

[trish]

What does everyone think about Cold Dead Hand? Going by the comments, it brings out the best - and worst - of folks.

http://FunnyOrDie.com/m/7w3qHilarious. I posted that link a few pages back, but it's worth a repost. (Don't know why it doesn't embed)

A gun can be one hell of an anchor. I don't think Mr. Heston's going to be floating off to Heaven anytime soon.

[Prospero]

I watched it Trish. Excellent. But if you read the posts in response to it, it gets scarey.

[hippifried]

Did the voice say anything about loaning money to strangers on the internet? Otherwise, your post warms my heart, to see the insane able to take advantage of thier Second Amendment rights.

Not so much lending as borrowing.

It's amazing how much preparation is involved in premeditation. Wouldn't want to seem rash.

[Ben]

How does one, an individual, protect/defend oneself against a "tyrannical" government? I've never understood that. (Plus corporations control our government. So, we are "defending" ourselves against corporations....)
I support defending one's home... against people trying to break in etc., etc.
But how can one defend oneself against the U.S. government????
I mean, how did the whole David Koresh thing work out????

Caller: Owning a Gun Has Nothing to do With Penis Size! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvP-FwoOVcY)

[trish]

Guns, in the hands of civilians, are hardly ever used for protection. People tell you they own this or that weapon for protection, but what they really mean is they bought an expensive and dangerous security blanket. A gun in a house is more likely to be involved in an accidental shooting or a suicide than in protecting the family.

Oh yeah, they're also huge phallic symbols too. Owners like to show them off and compare. They also get big silly grins on their faces when they ejaculate hot lead at high speed through the exquisitely machined barrels. The more rounds per minute the better. That's just like a man. All speed and no foreplay.

[hippifried]

That's just like a man. All speed and no foreplay.
What's foreplay?

[loren]

Guns, in the hands of civilians, are hardly ever used for protection.

Umm no. According to the Census Bureau firearms are used for self-defense OVER 100,000 times per year. While Gary Kleck, a criminologist, says the nuber is closer to 2.5 million.

And as for your "phallic symbols", that is pure bullshit. I carry my pistol for my personal protection. I usually have it with me every time I leave my house. In my past I've had several bad relationships and I like having the security of mind to know that I don't have to rely on someone else for protection.

One day, in 2010, I didn't have my pistol. That day, I was raped. He was eventually caught and brought to "justice". Because his family had a slime-ball lawyer got a slap on the wrist and served less than a year in prison. If I would've had my pistol, he wouldn't have raped me.

[broncofan]

Loren,
It is great to be able to protect yourself in times of need. But your anecdote tells us that even owning a gun is not enough. You need to have it on you every time you could get into trouble. We're all vulnerable at some point in our lives, guns or not.

In the abstract, you could have prevented the rape. But in your attempt to prevent other crimes, such as robbery, or jaywalking, owning a gun could also lead to an innocent person's untimely death. I don't know anyone who has saved their own life with a gun but I have known three people involved in gun tragedies. One guy's kid killed himself by accident not suicide. One guy was shot by his friend who thought his gun was not loaded (he is a vegetable; not dead). And one guy pulled the trigger of his shotgun with his toe.

Perhaps I just have crossed paths with an accident prone and suicidal group. I have not heard one anecdote of someone hearing someone creeping around their house and thank goodness they had a gun because it averted a disaster. Talk about the statistical anomaly that would catch everyone's attention (think shark attacks). Can you imagine if one day a gun averted a public disaster? The gun lobbies would latch on to this anomaly like it were the only relevant thing in the universe.

[trish]

There are a lot of tall tales told by gun owners, but not nearly as many substantiated accounts of guns used in self-defense. Just to highlight the willingness of some so-called "researchers" to inflate the numbers note that 100,000 is only 4% of 2.5 million. Gary Kleck's theoretical figure is 2.5 million. Your quote for the Census Bureau's measured figure (for which you provided no link) is 100,000. I'd say the theory failed to remain within a modest interval of error. But don't take my word for it. The National Research Council of the National Academies of Science disagrees.

Here's a quote from the link that follows.


The pro-gun crowd sure wants you to think so, promoting studies over the years claiming guns are used defensively thousands of times per day and that broader gun ownership makes communities safer, and repeating anecdotes in which guns are reported to have thwarted crimes.
A favorite study of these advocates is 1995’s “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun” (Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Fall/95), byGary Kleck and Marc Gertz, which found that guns were used defensively about 2.5 million times annually in the U.S.—or almost 7,000 times a day.
Researcher John Lott conducted another study favored by gun advocates, published in his 1998 book More Guns, Less Crime, which claimed that increasing numbers of concealed carry permits in a given area are associated with decreasing crime rates.
Both studies have been convincingly challenged in the scientific community. In a 2004 meta-study of gun research, the National Research Council of the National Academies of Science found that Lott’s claims were not supported by his data. And when Lott misrepresented the report (New York Post, 12/29/04), the NAS published a letter (Deltoid, 1/26/05) listing his distor-tions. Shooting Down the More Guns Less Crime Hypothesis (11/02), a paper pub-lished by the National Bureau of Economic Research, found crime actually increased in states and locales where concealed carry laws had been adopted.
The Harvard School of Public Health’s David Hemenway took on Kleck in Survey Research and Self Defense Gun Use: An Explanation of Extreme Overestimates (Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, 1997), demonstrating that because of the nature of the data, Kleck’s self-reported phone survey finding 2.5 million defensive uses of guns per year was wildly exaggerated. For example, Kleck says guns were used to defend against 845,000 burglaries in 1992, a year in which the National Crime Victimization Survey says there were fewer than 6 million burglaries.
Hemenway put together facts from the well-regarded NCVS—that someone was known to be home in just 22 percent of burglaries (1.3 million), and that fewer than half of U.S. households have firearms—and pointed out that Kleck “asks us to believe that burglary victims in gun-owning households use their guns in self-defense more than 100 percent of the time.”
Hemenway noted that respondents may also have a distorted view of “self-defense”—e.g., mistakenly thinking they are legally defending themselves when they draw a gun during a minor altercation. As the Harvard researcher and his co-authors in another study pointed out (Injury Prevention, 12/00): “Guns are used to threaten and intimidate far more often than they are used in self-defense. Most self-reported self-defense gun uses may well be illegal and against the interests of society.”
A National Crime Victimization Survey report, controlling for many of the methodological problems in Kleck, supported Hemenway, finding 65,000 defensive gun uses per year (NCVS Report, 1997). Current NCVS estimates are in the 100,000 range.


http://fair.org/slider/the-self-defense-self-delusion/#gsc.tab=0

[broncofan]

"Hemenway noted that respondents may also have a distorted view of “self-defense”—e.g., mistakenly thinking they are legally defending themselves when they draw a gun during a minor altercation."

Great article Trish. This line in particular made me chuckle because I think it exemplifies how demented some gun advocates are.

Who here doesn't read this sentence and have a picture conjured up in their head of some dolt hastily drawing a gun and pretending he saved everyone's life from a situation he created? Thank goodness our hero saved us from a malicious homeless man cleaning windshields.

[redsweater]

There's trouble on both ends of this argument. Here's a list of things everyone should be able to own if they want.

- .22 pistol
- hunting rifle
- .45 handgun
- semi-automatic rifle
- automatic rifle
- grenade launcher
- VX nerve agent
- nuclear warhead

If at any point on this list, you thought "wait a minute", then you agree that the government should control weapons. No one should be talking about whether the government has the right or the need to control weapons. The argument is, and must remain, about where and how to draw the line.


Conversely, the FBI estimates that there are 200 million guns, and there are about 32,000 total gun deaths per year, in the US. Simple division shows that you'd need to take away 6250 guns to possibly save 1 life per year, and since about 2/3 of those deaths are from suicide, that's being really generous.

Here's a "hugely successful" gun buyback, where 100k was spent, and 600 guns were brought in.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/12/19/pot-club-owner-funds-ious-spur-hugely-successful-gun-buybacks-in-oakland-sf/

I think it's extremely safe to say that there are much, much more cost-effective ways of saving lives than "getting guns off the streets".

[trish]

There's trouble on both ends of this argument. Here's a list of things everyone should be able to own if they want.

- .22 pistol
- hunting rifle
- .45 handgun
- semi-automatic rifle
- automatic rifle
- grenade launcher
- VX nerve agent
- nuclear warhead

If at any point on this list, you thought "wait a minute", then you agree that the government should control weapons. No one should be talking about whether the government has the right or the need to control weapons. The argument is, and must remain, about where and how to draw the line.That's one part of the argument. Other issues include secret carry, background checks etc. But yes, anyone who draws that line at nuclear warheads already grants the government the right to regulate weaponry. Personally I would like to see the line drawn at semi-automatic weapons. But I grant my representatives the right to negotiate and compromise, something tea-baggers do not allow their own representatives.


I think it's extremely safe to say that there are much, much more cost-effective ways of saving lives than "getting guns off the streets". Agreed. But not putting more guns on the streets should be part of any rational regulatory agreement.

[broncofan]

I think it's extremely safe to say that there are much, much more cost-effective ways of saving lives than "getting guns off the streets".
You're right that it's safe to say. Effectiveness of regulation is an important consideration. It's reasonable to start with the measures that save the most lives. Once they're implemented there's no reason to stop there?

The problem is that decision-making is not perfectly top down. Each agency has its own mandate and so for instance the department of transportation cannot fail to regulate car safety because asbestos is very dangerous. We can't use the fact that money cannot be allocated in a perfectly efficient way as an excuse for dragging our feet. As a theoretical matter, regulate that which is most dangerous and has the least utility first. As a practical matter, going down the list we do not run out of money by the time we get to guns.

I can think of many things that ARE regulated that save fewer lives than getting guns off the streets would. I am glad you concede there would be a net reduction in deaths from gun control measures though.

[redsweater]

I am glad you concede there would be a net reduction in deaths from gun control measures though.

I didn't say that, in fact. I was careful to use words like "possibly", to show that if you do believe that a net reduction would be the result, then there are still much more effective ways to spend the $1 million that would result in 1 life saved under the absolute most optimistic conditions. The truth is that I don't know what the real result would be, and neither does anyone else. The purpose of this math problem was to show boundaries to check your expectations against, not to suggest what's really going to happen.

[broncofan]

I didn't say that, in fact. I was careful to use words like "possibly", to show that if you do believe that a net reduction would be the result, then there are still much more effective ways to spend the $1 million that would result in 1 life saved under the absolute most optimistic conditions. The truth is that I don't know what the real result would be, and neither does anyone else. The purpose of this math problem was to show boundaries to check your expectations against, not to suggest what's really going to happen.
I understand. Look, though I don't agree with some parts of your previous post I thought it was a fairly reasonable presentation of some of the issues to consider.

If we discussed this long enough and pored over enough data I think we could shed some light on whether getting rid of certain guns would save lives (I think it would). It's empirically not testable but we could look at some of the factors. The real problem with precise numbers is that you don't know how many of the homicides and suicides and accidents committed with guns would be committed with less efficient means. Some amount less, but then this would still need to be netted against the lives saved by guns, which is some positive number though I think overstated.

Assuming that lives would be saved: I don't think it's that cumbersome a thing to regulate. As you say it's a matter of line drawing and not implementing a complete ban. But I don't think that the fact that there are other things to regulate means that it's too unwieldy to regulate guns.

[redsweater]

I don't think that the fact that there are other things to regulate means that it's too unwieldy to regulate guns.

Fair enough. For the record, I do more or less agree with the federal assault weapons ban. A handgun ban might be going a bit far.

[fivekatz]

While people of reason are talking about registration and control of sales and limiting access to assault weapons the NRAs answer to gun violence is more guns. Only in a media world where both sides are given equal time as though there is always two sides of equal sanity to every issue could an organization take this stand only months after Newtown without being destroyed by media.

For the record, I am sure that the framers had not a clue what the world would look like today or that ordinary citizens could buy weapons of mass destruction for personal use unfettered by any regulation based on the Bill of Rights. At any rate these same old, rich, white guys also avoided slavery completely in their work so it was far from the Ten Commandments and we as a people should regularly access the intent of the freedoms they wished to create for fellow old, rich, whites guys to govern all of us we have the last 230 plus years.

[trish]

Since Easter:

Four year old accidentally shoots and kills himself in Mobile, Alabama.

Fourteen year old boy trips, discharges his pistol and shoots his own leg.

Twenty two year old Maine resident shot his hand while trying to remove a bullet from the chamber of his Glock.

Six year old Floridian boy who found a gun inside a car kills his six year old sister.

Off duty Pennsylavania police officer accidentally shoots a citizen in the hand.

Arkansas man accidentally shoots himself.

Ohio man playing with his gun shoots himself in three places.

Arizona man killed when his twelve year old son’s gun discharges.

Oklahoma woman accidently shot in the arm by boyfriend.

Eighteen year old Ohio football player accidentally shot in his pickup.

South Carolina man accidentally shot in the thigh while “mudding” at a bonfile.

Three year old find father’s gun under the bed, shoots his thumb off.


http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[broncofan]

Since Easter:

Arizona man killed when his twelve year old son’s gun discharges.


That's why kids shouldn't own guns. Their parents might accidentally shoot themselves.

[redsweater]

This is why it's best to just pull emotionally charged, anecdotal evidence completely out of the discussion. People die every day, and people are hurt every day. The way that people die or get hurt makes people more or less upset depending on what it is.

To pro gun supporters: You're not entitled to have any weapon you want. There will be limits, so just focus on where you think a reasonable place to draw the line is.

To anti gun advocates: Even if you're completely right about everything, you're more likely to save lives by spending your time on almost any other cause. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lcod.htm

[buttslinger]

Bear in mind that this thread started out scaremongering against a ban that will never happen.

Meanwhile the gun nuts will continue to buy assault weapons with huge cartridge clips and more innocents will die in multiple shootings.

If that's how you choose to define freedom then I for one want no part of it.

I thought Old Robert was a tad cynical three months ago, but it's looking now like the NRA is stronger than ever, and freedom means freedom not to worry about it. Most non-violent people purposely AVOID gun play, and distance themselves from people that are losing their marbles. Maybe Joseph Conrad was right, Civilization is for the scaredy-cats.

[trish]

There are over 23000 non-fatal gun accidents in the U.S. per year. Over 19000 suicides by guns.

Most gun owners think, "Shit, I'm not going to have an accident or commit suicide." They aren't thinking of their secretive teenage son or daughter who, like lots of teenagers, may be going through a rough emotional period. They aren't thinking of their six year old who is capable of finding anything and everything thought to be hidden.

The cdc list linked above includes the category "accidents." "Accidents involving guns" is a subcategory we can do something about.

The report of one gun accident is an anecdote. Yes gun deaths are high, but gun injuries are too. The fact that one can report on dozens of them day after day after day is something more than an ancedote. The fact that we can see that almost every gun accident is due to stupidity or negligence or both underscores what an incredibly dangerous hazard the very presence of a gun is. This is something that needs to be regulated and controlled.

[hippifried]

That's why kids shouldn't own guns. Their parents might accidentally shoot themselves.

There ya go... But how does that equate to "shouldn't"? Sometimes the parents need a little help. The Menendez genetic strain has now been severed. That's not a good thing?

[broncofan]

There ya go... But how does that equate to "shouldn't"? Sometimes the parents need a little help. The Menendez genetic strain has now been severed. That's not a good thing?
Ah yes, Eric and Lyle. I forgot about them;. Perhaps the NRA wants to use them as a success story:).

[redsweater]

There are 32000 gun deaths/year in the US. About 20,000 of them are suicides. If the rest of those deaths are accidents (they're not), then that's 10% of accidents. Accidental poisoning accounts for more at 33,000/year.

As an aside, I noticed that guns are the method of choice for suicide, accounting for a little over half.

[trish]

Many suicides are accidents too, in the sense that if a gun hadn't been handy, the victim may have survived his or her darkest hour without dire happenstance. Too often the weapon used belonged not to the victim, but to a family member who bought it to protect the family.

[Fancy fancy]

The only gun you need in life is your cock. Never has a truer word been spoken.

[trish]

And no matter how big or how small your cock, we all shoot the same caliber sperm (about 3 microns in diameter, if I correctly recall).

[Fancy fancy]

Every time I go to the toilet Trish, I need to order a crane

[trish]

:D
Or you could hang a picture of Lilly Langtree over the urinal, drop your pants and wait for an erection. The problem there is you have to learn to piss through an erection, not an easily acquired skill.

[redsweater]

You don't think there's maybe a better way to do that? Really? A peptalk? Advocating for a more equitable economy so people in poverty don't feel completely hopeless?

Ok. Let's get rid of all the guns. A buyback is by far the cheapest and fastest way and they've been so successful that we can assume all 200 million guns will be turned in. The average offer is $300/gun, so to prevent all these suicides and accidents, we only need 60 billion dollars. No one will complain about this, no other countries will attempt to capitalize on the new black market opportunity, and no one will try to hasten the completion of a fully 3d printed weapon.

$60 billion buys a lot of cancer research.

Sorry for being caustic.

[trish]

No need to get rid of all guns. But if your gun was used in the commission of a crime, in a suicide, in an accident let's have some liability. Assign some liability to owner, manufacturers and distributors. From this point on let's make guns harder to acquire. Let's have background checks. If you want to bring a gun into a home let's make it the law that more than one adult living there give it the okay. There's a lot one can do for a lot less than 60 billion dollars.

It strikes me as bit silly to prioritize problems by size and tackle them only in that order. A lot money and a lot of time has already gone into cancer research. There are no organizations opposed to cancer research.

We can also investigate the cosmic background microwave radiation (which costs a lot less money and won't save any lives). We can do it while we research cancer.

Just one of the unique things about the problem of gun injuries and gun deaths, is there actually is a national organization devoted to doing nothing about it, indeed devoted to obstructing all progress. The NRA has even gotten Washington to prevent the CDC from conducting any further research into gun injuries and gun deaths.

[fivekatz]

No need to get rid of all guns. But if your gun was used in the commission of a crime, in a suicide, in an accident let's have some liability. Assign some liability to owner, manufacturers and distributors. From this point on let's make guns harder to acquire. Let's have background checks. If you want to bring a gun into a home let's make it the law that more than one adult living there give it the okay. There's a lot one can do for a lot less than 60 billion dollars.

It strikes me as bit silly to prioritize problems by size and tackle them only in that order. A lot money and a lot of time has already gone into cancer research. There are no organizations opposed to cancer research.

We can also investigate the cosmic background microwave radiation (which costs a lot less money and won't save any lives). We can do it while we research cancer.

Just one of the unique things about the problem of gun injuries and gun deaths, is there actually is a national organization devoted to doing nothing about it, indeed devoted to obstructing all progress. The NRA has even gotten Washington to prevent the CDC from conducting any further research into gun injuries and gun deaths.While I don't know if I agree with every point made here, a lot of this post rings true to me.

The NRAs obstruction and power is enormous and the fact that they stand against universal background checks and closing the gun show loophole are examples of how entrenched they are in maintaining the status quo.

Right off the bat there needs to be some kind of buffer to the prolifiration of guns and a good place to start is with gun show sales and universal background checks and registration. Convicted felons should not be allowed to either maintain ownership or buy new guns.

The database argument IMHO is so lame and just made to incite fear in people. Everyone who has a car has that car registered and drivers license. Now free travel is a basic right but responsible ownership and insurance is required. I can not see why the same basic guidelines aren't good for fire arms. And if people are worried about national database it is a bit late as the Patriot Act has consolidated data and poses a far greater threat to freedom than sensible gun safety regulations or the idea that Obama is going to drop a drone attack on some Tea Party member while they are having their morning coffee and doughnut.

As for assault weapons, they IMHO should be so highly regulated and expensive to buy, register and insure that they will become a rarity in the future.

The idea of buying back all the fire arms in the US isn't terribly viable, given the number is estimated to be between 200 - 300 million. But NRAs idea that the best answer to fire arm violence is to have more people carry weapons while appealing to gun manufactures is not the answer IMHO.

While guns can't and should not be abolished the time has come for the US to comprehend that virtual unfettered ownership is a bad idea. Internet privacy and a whole host of issues threaten freedom more than gun safety does.

Chris Rock did a great skit about how bullets should cost $5,000 a piece. In this skit he talks about two guys having an argument in a bar and one yelling to other "I'd blow your motherfing brains out if I could afford it MF!" Sort of makes sense to me.

[buttslinger]

I'm sure the Founding Fathers imagined that if a man could be freed from oppression, he could then envision a straight line to God and His Kingdom, and the only task at hand would be to keep one eye on the foggy trap of DESIRE.
Well, it seems that the definition of Freedom requires Lawbooks, aisles of them, libraries of them.

A few years back there was a shooting in a High School near me, I don't recall the details, but that night the school auditorium was packed with outraged citizens and news cameras. In the course of the discussion, the Principle SCHOOLED the Parents, when he calmly stated he had not seen ONE of their faces at the weekly PTA meetings, in fact no-one at all attended them.

"There Is No Security on this Earth. Only Opportunity.” Douglas MacArthur

Any time you change the World to make it a saner place, somebody gets sore. You have to choose your battles. The World is a risky place. That's why there is a Cop with a Gun standing behind every Judge I've ever seen.

[hippifried]

[QUOTE]We can also investigate the cosmic background microwave radiation (which costs a lot less money and won't save any lives).
So if I can just get to the cosmos, I can heat up this frozen burrito?

All necessary regulations are just common sense. The NRA used to be all about common sense because their agenda was gun safety. Then Wayne laPierre came along & weaseled his way into complete control of the organization. Now the NRA is nothing more than another fringe group, making up conspiracy theories & lobbying to remove the laws that they used to argue were enough to sanely regulate guns. There's so much stupid flowing out of the NRA these days, one would think the general public should be hip to it by now. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Perhaps the discussion should be directed toward blind following of winged philosophies. Basic common sense seems to have no place in most discussion that can be politicized in any way. This is an attitudinal problem.

[fivekatz]

Hippifried, I am not sure that is as much the vast majority of the public isn't hip to the NRA hypocrisy as it is that enough of Congress is afraid of the NRAs financial might and honestly believe that the public is not going to vote on guns either way in the next election. It is after all the money they fear, not the masses and the majority of the NRAs money does not come from grassroots but rather powerful industrialists.

[trish]

Over the last days:

27 year old Wisconsin man shoots himself when his bullet ricochet of a tree. He’s expected to survive.


A robber in Nashville drops his gun shooting himself in the leg, putting the lie to the NRA adage about only good guys with guns can stop ....you know the rest.

In Ohio two women were handling a gun when it discharged injuring both of them.

Off duty policeman accidentally discharges his weapon while investigating a crime scene. Only the window of a brewery was injured.

In Oregon a 29 year old man was cleaning his handgun when it discharged. The bullet passed through the wall into the adjoining apartment. Guns are for your protection. Feeling safe yet?

NRA firearms instructor Eugene Kenny, from Connecticut, shoots his own ankle. He says he’s a stickler on safety. He didn’t know there was one in the chamber. :roll:

In Oregon a retired law enforcement officer (sheriff’s captain) shot his hand while cleaning his pistol.

Meanwhile, a man in Pennsylvania also shoots his hand when his firearm suddenly discharges.


Mental Illness is not the only mental issue that is relevant to the question, “Should I sell a firearm to this person?” Too many silly people are allowed to own deadly weapons. The only thing that can stop a silly person with a gun, is LOOK OUT! DUCK!!

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[hippifried]

If they couldn't deliver the votes, the politicians & press wouldn't pay them as much homage as they do. The NRA was a very well respected organization before the change of agenda, & still is, but they aren't what they used to be. I never hear them promote safety anymore. Over & over, it's just this constant paranoid rant about "the fast approaching gun ban" ad nauseum...

Things are so out of hand right now that one would think some social sanity is bound to prevail. Well... Hope springs eternal, but until we focus attention on this irrational fear of each other that drives this "debate" from all sides, we can't ever get a handle on guns without making the problem worse. This is a side show. "They" aren't "coming for your guns". The whole issue is a red herring from every angle. Divide & conquer in the age of democratic/republican governance. While we argue over the actions of a handful of crazies, the real issue of the power grab goes unnoticed. "Eye on the Prize!" The prize is control of your social security.

[trish]

The NRA was a very well respected organization before the change of agenda, & still is, but they aren't what they used to be. I never hear them promote safety anymore. Over & over, it's just this constant paranoid rant about "the fast approaching gun ban" ad nauseum...Exactly right. Once upon a time the NRA was very visibly promoting hunter safety and game conservation. You never hear the NRA complaining about diminishing wetlands anymore. Many of the older men in my family (including my father) were one time members. But that was at least a couple of decades ago. There has been a huge turn-over in NRA leadership and membership. It's been taken over by a cancer. But boy, can they sell guns like never before!

[trish]

"They" aren't "coming for your guns". The whole issue is a red herring from every angle. Divide & conquer in the age of democratic/republican governance. While we argue over the actions of a handful of crazies, the real issue of the power grab goes unnoticed. "Eye on the Prize!" The prize is control of your social security. You betcha! First they dismantle the unions. Then steal your pensions. And finally social security. Where ever there's a big pool of money that hasn't been drained yet, that's where you'll find the fat cats and their political lackeys.

[hippifried]

You betcha! First they dismantle the unions. Then steal your pensions. And finally social security. Where ever there's a big pool of money that hasn't been drained yet, that's where you'll find the fat cats and their political lackeys.

That's pretty much everybody in a power position, right? While this circus, with all the shrieking & chest thumping goes on, I'm hard pressed to find anybody of import who isn't willing to take a meataxe to "entitlements" as an economic cure all.

[trish]

"They're" good at dividing the electorate. Those teachers over there are making too much money. They don't need those fat pensions. Those old folks on social security are wasting your tax money on hover chairs and luxury cruises. Those people on disability are all faking it. The magic hands of the market will fix everything if you just let them wander a little through your pockets. People are stupid and easily divided, always looking at the short term. The fat cats themselves only ever think about the short term. Draining this pool of money and that, rarely thinking about what they're going to do when all the pools have been drained and there's no one left to exploit. But hey, when all our entitlements are gone, we'll live by the gun, right? We'll be holding up grocery stores with our AK-47s for toilet paper.

[fivekatz]

If they couldn't deliver the votes, the politicians & press wouldn't pay them as much homage as they do. The NRA was a very well respected organization before the change of agenda, & still is, but they aren't what they used to be. I never hear them promote safety anymore. Over & over, it's just this constant paranoid rant about "the fast approaching gun ban" ad nauseum...

Things are so out of hand right now that one would think some social sanity is bound to prevail. Well... Hope springs eternal, but until we focus attention on this irrational fear of each other that drives this "debate" from all sides, we can't ever get a handle on guns without making the problem worse. This is a side show. "They" aren't "coming for your guns". The whole issue is a red herring from every angle. Divide & conquer in the age of democratic/republican governance. While we argue over the actions of a handful of crazies, the real issue of the power grab goes unnoticed. "Eye on the Prize!" The prize is control of your social security.Votes equal money. Everybody is afraid of being challenged in primaries and that becomes legitimate when you know that money from guys like the Koch Brothers and the NRA is going to stop following to you and to an opponent. That goes for Dems that the NRA has historically gone light on like Harry Reid.

I don't disagree that the continued assault on entitlements so we can protect the military-industrial complex, big finance, healthcare sector special interests and reduced taxation rates for the 0.05% of Americans, is a huge issue. But gun safety is a wedge issue until someone you know is victim of the loose regulatory structure in the US.

[redsweater]

There's basically no way to fix anything without making some cuts to entitlements. This video explains it pretty well (and explains some other stuff too).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D319DsrxfUA

[redsweater]

Point is, military and other discretionary spending is a fairly large portion of the budget, but it's nowhere near the size of entitlements. More importantly, discretionary spending isn't expected to double in size over the next 30 years. What this means is that something absolutely must be done with mandatory spending, and that something will probably involve cuts. Sorry. Making that assertion doesn't at all have anything to do with protecting the military-industrial complex. It's just the harsh reality.

[trish]

The hyperactive youtube guy failed to mention social security pays for itself. Also failed to mention that not only do old people need a lot of medical care adding to the cost of Medicare and Medicaid but also the government is not allowed to negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies for the cost of medicines and that for profit hospitals are hiking up the costs of a visit by many orders of magnitude. Anti-government nincompoops are everywhere trying to dismantle government and its programs. Another example is the post office. It always paid for itself until Congress insisted it pay ahead on pensions by ten years.

But as far as this thread goes entitlements are a digression, unless the plan is to shoot the elderly with citizen owned semi-automatic weapons before we have to pay back the money we garnered from their pay checks for their retirement security.

[redsweater]

Social Security doesn't pay for itself (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2010/11/doesnt-social-security-pay-for-itself-since-its-taken-out-of-my-paycheck.html), so there's nothing to mention on that front. Old people do need healthcare, but that's going to need to be weighed against the expected increases in cost. It's ultimately going to come down to triage, and how best to get rich people to contribute more to the economy without toppling the whole thing.

The point of the digression is that the decision to make cuts to Medicare or Social Security has nothing at all to do with special interests, pensions, unions(my dad runs one and I've done plenty of work for them), or the military-industrial complex.

[hippifried]

The only entitlements being discussed are Social Security & Medicare. They have their own revenue stream. For all the hand wringing, there's still no money coming out of the general fund to pay for it. The incessant whining is about what might happen years down the road if nothing is done to compensate for the retiring baby boomers. The first boomers started turning 65 last year. The boom lasted for 10 years. Up to 20 by some creative figuring. Regardless, it's still a temporary problem. Even if the case can be made that longer lifespans could extend the problem another 10 or 20 years beyond expectations, so what. This is easily solvable on the revenue side by bumping the employee & employer contributions just a couple of % points & raising the contribution cap. Hell, just get rid of the cap altogether. Why's it there anyway? Somebody shouldn't pay into the system because they make too much money?



Votes equal money. Everybody is afraid of being challenged in primaries and that becomes legitimate when you know that money from guys like the Koch Brothers and the NRA is going to stop following to you and to an opponent. That goes for Dems that the NRA has historically gone light on like Harry Reid.

I don't disagree that the continued assault on entitlements so we can protect the military-industrial complex, big finance, healthcare sector special interests and reduced taxation rates for the 0.05% of Americans, is a huge issue. But gun safety is a wedge issue until someone you know is victim of the loose regulatory structure in the US.
Gun safety's an issue. There used to be this great organization that pressed the issue of firearm safety all the time. Their leadership got bought off. Most of the regulations that were in place before the NRA agenda change, that they're whining about now, were initiated by them. Now they just lobby for the industry & pander to the most extreme of the lunatic fringe. You know The nuts who want legal impunity to ignore the "No Weapons" sign on the front door & take their concealed gun into the bar, where they can start a fight over a drunken argument that private property is sacrosanct & how they should have a "right" to refuse service to anyone at their ball game hot dog stand franchise in the local public high school.

It's not just guns. We've created a monster where freedom has somehow become synonymous with impunity. Politicians are scared of the nuts & won't call them out. The last Republican to do it was President George HW Bush. The NRA would love to take credit for his loss, but they had no effect on the '92 election at all. Forget their dumb ideas, those wimps need to be called out for the cowards they are. That's how you beat the prissy chest thumpers. But what to do about the media who do nothing but search for sound bites, & never question or follow up on them? They grant impunity to nuts, but nobody holds them culpable. I haven't really checked, but I'd be willing to bet that the birthers have gotten more air time than those who debunk them. The way to dial this down is for people, & especially the press, to realize & understand that there's no such thing as impunity in a free society. The nuts challenge everything. Why can't the rest of us? Stupid shouldn't be just left hanging out there as if it's legit.

[fivekatz]

The only entitlements being discussed are Social Security & Medicare. They have their own revenue stream. For all the hand wringing, there's still no money coming out of the general fund to pay for it. The incessant whining is about what might happen years down the road if nothing is done to compensate for the retiring baby boomers. The first boomers started turning 65 last year. The boom lasted for 10 years. Up to 20 by some creative figuring. Regardless, it's still a temporary problem. Even if the case can be made that longer lifespans could extend the problem another 10 or 20 years beyond expectations, so what. This is easily solvable on the revenue side by bumping the employee & employer contributions just a couple of % points & raising the contribution cap. Hell, just get rid of the cap altogether. Why's it there anyway? Somebody shouldn't pay into the system because they make too much money?

Gun safety's an issue. There used to be this great organization that pressed the issue of firearm safety all the time. Their leadership got bought off. Most of the regulations that were in place before the NRA agenda change, that they're whining about now, were initiated by them. Now they just lobby for the industry & pander to the most extreme of the lunatic fringe. You know The nuts who want legal impunity to ignore the "No Weapons" sign on the front door & take their concealed gun into the bar, where they can start a fight over a drunken argument that private property is sacrosanct & how they should have a "right" to refuse service to anyone at their ball game hot dog stand franchise in the local public high school.

It's not just guns. We've created a monster where freedom has somehow become synonymous with impunity. Politicians are scared of the nuts & won't call them out. The last Republican to do it was President George HW Bush. The NRA would love to take credit for his loss, but they had no effect on the '92 election at all. Forget their dumb ideas, those wimps need to be called out for the cowards they are. That's how you beat the prissy chest thumpers. But what to do about the media who do nothing but search for sound bites, & never question or follow up on them? They grant impunity to nuts, but nobody holds them culpable. I haven't really checked, but I'd be willing to bet that the birthers have gotten more air time than those who debunk them. The way to dial this down is for people, & especially the press, to realize & understand that there's no such thing as impunity in a free society. The nuts challenge everything. Why can't the rest of us? Stupid shouldn't be just left hanging out there as if it's legit.
I can't and don't disagree with these takes.

Whether the media is afraid of being called "liberal bias", married to the paradigm of presenting two sides to every discussion creating the illusion at times that there are two sane sides to an issue or it is the fact that mainstream media is now owned by huge corporations they are part of the problem.

The other issues is the nuts have huge financial megaphones, from the super elite/wealthy who find that these fringe issues have historically been helpful in national elections and instrumental in controlling the House in the recently gerrymandered districts.

It isn't that the rest of us can't mount a resistance but it will take a massive effort not to dismissed like the occupy movement was. That means the 60% of the 99% are going to have to get really pissed and then we may see the kind of unrest that caused change in the face of big money, special interest opposition in the 30's.

The 30's were a almost unimaginable collation of poor, bigoted southern whites, unions, intellectual elite and the middle class. The more the capitalist elite forward their agenda at the determent of the vast majority, the more they risk that type of backlash, no matter how much stronger the elite's hold is on mass media.

IMHO the long life span issue is a anomaly that the right is selling. Well to do folks with good health care live longer, but those most in need of social security as there sole retirement income do not live much longer still.

Social Security still self funds and both SS and Medicare would remain viable for many years simply by allowing no income limit on taxation (SS) and means testing for Medicare.

This society needs to protect its people from want and disease IMHO before it worries about controlling geo-politics by a super bloated defense budget and the super wealthy from paying their fair share. We are pretty far down the other end of the rabbit hole from the days when corporate taxes were hammered by the tax code IMHO.

The elite have spent 80 plus years trying to undo the New Deal in spite of the fact that it built the platform through infrastructure, education and income equity for the greatest period of American growth ever. The decline of empire began with Reagan and was finalized by Bush-Cheney but the vast majority of Americans don't get it yet, they think it was all caused by the current President who actually has softened the decline and desperately is trying to make the government work in spite of massive GOP obstruction that risks destroying not just the US bust Western economies. And it is the wedge issues and media that allow that not to come into clear focus yet.

And if the history of the world is any indicator, regardless of the new dimensions the 21st Century brings to information and thought, the longer it takes to come into focus the more dire the consequences will be for all but most glaring will be the backlash against the elite.

Just my take

[buttslinger]

Last year about 1.2 million abortions took place, so, I figure let the rednecks have their guns, We Libs are still waaaay ahead.....:(:(:(
I'm only half kidding on this one. There's plenty of blame to go around, plenty of pain.

[trish]

The good Lord in all his omniscience doesn't ensoul fertilized eggs that He already knows will be aborted. Every right thinking person of faith knows that.

[fivekatz]

An interesting turn to compare sensible gun safety laws with abortion, aside from the fact that they are both wedge issues and the anti-choice folks never go away but the majority of gun safety folks drift in and out of the issues urgency based on mass murders rather than the fact that every day masses of people are injured or murdered by fire arms.

Oh, and the same states in the US that are extreme in their defense of that fetus, don't want society to help with the child's education, nutrition or health care and want every citizen to have a gun if they choose no matter how many born humans die each year.

Quite a country the US is at moments.

[buttslinger]

I guess my point is it's more than about saving lives, and if it were really just about sensible gun laws, we could have agreed on that 41 pages ago, or 41 years ago. Behind every suicide and murder and abortion there's a Human Being. Maybe they can eliminate the genes that cause pain or unfairness from the DNA code, or make people take an exam before they're allowed to have children, but until then, buckle up, bitches, because somebody is most definitely screwing you over right now. It's hard not to take it personal. Ye best steer clear of God's wrath too. He is TOTALLY unreasonable. Ever since that "EVE" incident.....

[hippifried]

I can't help but think that the craziness we see ratcheted up today is a product of all the fear mongering we're bombarded with. Not just today really. There's always something or somebody we're supposed to be scared of. It's drugs, guns, bombs, certain technologies, diseases, bugs, rodents, reptiles, pit bulls, etc... It's all those blacks, whites, reds, browns, yellows, foreigners, giants, midgets, Jews, Hindus, Catholics, Protestants of all bents, Muslims, Mormons, Pagans, theists, atheists, gnostics, agnostics, monarchists, egalitarians, libertarians, authoritarians, vegetarians, carnivores, omnivores, children, adults, teenagers, retirees, heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, asexuals, fats, thins, warriors, pacifists, every kind of economic or philosophical ist or ism you can possibly dream up, & all them smart alecs who say we come descended from monkeys!

Kinda makes ya wanna crawl under a rock & hide, don't it? What I'm really afraid of is that I might not be able to find the time or inclination to be as scared as I'm supposed to be. Wouldn't want to turn into or be accused of being one of those spooky non-conformists.

[fivekatz]

Interesting points about the culture and how it has seemed to amplify fear.

Keep the masses in debt and in fear of each other, other countries, other genders, races, sexual orientations and get them mad as hell at those issues rather than an assault on their income equity position in society and you have a winning hand.

The conservative revolution of the 1980's had been grand,give it a few more years and the plutocrats might be able to repeal child labor laws.

[trish]

April 5:

Missouri man shot in the shoulder while game playing with a gun.

Gun discharges in Florida while two supposedly grown men were “playing” with it. One of them is now recovering from the resulting shoulder wound. They thought is wasn’t loaded. :roll:

Kansas Man shoots himself in the leg attempting to take apart his gun in a Perry Lake State Park. He had been drinking.

Michigan woman accidentally shot in the leg by boyfriend who was “demonstrating something” with his gun. Probably diverting attention from the size of his penis.

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[fivekatz]

Gutless obstruction Leader Mitch McConnell announce he will join those not allowing an simply up or down vote:

WASHINGTON -- While President Barack Obama was delivering an emotional plea on Monday about gun control legislation, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) announced that he will be among those filibustering the gun package that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) is trying to bring up.

"Sen. McConnell opposes the Reid bill," McConnell spokesman Don Stewart said in a statement. "While nobody knows yet what Sen. Reid’s plan is for the gun bill, if he chooses to file cloture on the motion to proceed to the Reid bill, Sen. McConnell will oppose cloture on proceeding to that bill."

McConnell is the fifteenth Republican to join the filibuster effort being led by Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.). The GOP leader could have opted to stay out of it, letting the votes happen on the gun package and putting the pressure on House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) to decide the bill's fate, if it even made it out of the Senate. Instead, McConnell is making a calculated decision to be part of the filibuster effort that could derail the entire push for gun control legislation.

News of McConnell's plan came at the exact moment that Obama was giving a speech in Hartford, Conn. -- to a crowd that included families of victims from the Newtown shootings -- about the need for Congress to hold votes on the gun proposals, regardless of whether lawmakers planned to vote for them. Obama, whose voice cracked at moments during the speech, used some of his toughest language yet in pressing lawmakers to act.

"What's more important? Our children or an 'A' grade from the gun lobby?" the president asked of Congress.

Reid is trying to bring up the gun bill this week, though it is hanging by a few political threads. There have been some small developments in favor of the package, however, including Sen. Pat Toomey (R-Pa.) emerging as a prospective cosponsor for the background checks piece of the bill. The details of that proposal are still being finalized.

The fact that Reid the let the chance to require actual talking filibuster to return as normal procedure rather a simple call to cloture vote may be the most failed moment of leadership in the history of Senate Majority leadership by any US politician.

F'ing shocking that Reid let this happen after the 11-12 session and its historic abuse of procedural cloture.

[trish]

At the beginning of the new session Reid had the opportunity to put the old rules on filibuster back into place. I was shocked when he didn't. WTF was he thinking? Oh, let me guess, "When we're in the minority we might want to obstruct legislation too." Fucking morons every single one of them.

[fivekatz]

At the beginning of the new session Reid had the opportunity to put the old rules on filibuster back into place. I was shocked when he didn't. WTF was he thinking? Oh, let me guess, "When we're in the minority we might want to obstruct legislation too." Fucking morons every single one of them.I do think that was a huge part of the calculation, in addition to the possible concern that the Dems would lose the war of words regarding the procedure changes because so many Americans do not get what is happening with procedure in the Senate and the obstruction it has created.

Both reasons IMO demonstrate what a weak leader Harry Reid is and why the world would have been better of if Nancy Pelosi had been the Senate Dem leader instead of the House. Nancy has twice the brains and three times the balls IMHO. And that is why neo-con media demonizes her and just makes funny of wimpy ole Harry.

[zulusierra]

Gun ban AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

If you want it banned so bad then do it the correct way like they did with alcohol... AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.

Anti-2A is anti civil rights. How's it feel to stand with racists like Klan on civil rights??? lel

[trish]

Regulation of guns does not require an amendment to the Constitution. The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 was never thought to be unconstitutional, it merely expired. Therefore owning semi-automatics is neither a constitutional right nor a civil right.

[zulusierra]

Regulation of guns does not require an amendment to the Constitution. The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 was never thought to be unconstitutional, it merely expired. Therefore owning semi-automatics is neither a constitutional right nor a civil right.

You know what I find interesting?

The fact that the "RTKBA" is centered around firearms. The constitution never mentions firearms. Arms encompass myriad forms and designs. If you think gun law is crazy american knife laws are even more arcane.

BTW, they almost got their (de-facto) ban 1934 but it only ended up covering Machinegun, silencer, short-barrel rifle/shotgun, and "all other weapon". At the last minute "Joe Six-pack" had his right saved. They instituted a $200 "stamp tax" that ensured only the very rich could afford a weapon.(I believe in todays dollar it would be roughly $5,000 for the stamp on EVERY weapon). Due to inflation it is now somewhat affordable. People like me who collect restricted weapons are sometimes referred to as "stamp collectors".

[zulusierra]

Regulation of guns does not require an amendment to the Constitution. The Assault Weapons Ban of 1994 was never thought to be unconstitutional, it merely expired. Therefore owning semi-automatics is neither a constitutional right nor a civil right.

I see your point. I do enjoy getting other peoples well-thought out opinions.

Your logic, however, is flawed. lrn2philosphy :geek:

[trish]

Federal Law bans the interstate commerce of switchblades, and box-cutters aren’t allowed on commercial passenger planes. An Illinoian carrying a blade larger than three inches is regarded as armed. Some states have banned the carry of “butterfly” knives.

Every parent knows that knives are hazardous even when not handled with ill-intent. When handled maliciously they are dangerous. That’s why there are laws regulating them and banning some varieties of them. The Supreme Court does not regard these laws as an infringement on the Second Amendment nor a obstruction of a Civil Right.

The same week as Sandy Hook a man armed with a knife attack a primary school in China injuring twenty two children. The difference between this incident and Sandy Hook: The knifeman hadn’t managed to kill single child.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack

If we can legally ban and regulate the varieties of knives, we can do the same with firearms, grenade launchers and any other sort of “arm.”

[zulusierra]

Federal Law bans the interstate commerce of switchblades...“arm.”

The issue is now that the 2nd has been "incorporated" to the states. If it had went the other way they could have left it up to the states so that in Ga I could have select-fire automatics and in New York maybe just a Muzzle-Loading musket. As long as you don't cross state lines into a restricted state you'd be fine. I think Wyoming was talking something along those lines.

I have to admit that I'm not as well versed in law as I'd like to be so I'm not sure how I feel about the whole incorporation thing.

On a side-note, Military, Law-enforcement and no joke one-armed (or one functional arm) citizens are permitted to ship auto-knives across state lines.

[trish]

Since April 5:

Sixteen year old Ohio boy suffers from a chest wound after attempting to clean his gun. That his story and he’s sticking to it.

Tennessee four year old son of Wilson County sheiff’s deputy finds a gun at a family picnic, then shoots and kills his mother.

While cleaning his gun Texas policeman shoots and kills his four year old daughter.

West Virginia woman shots her finger off.

Seventeen year old North Carolina boy shoots himself in the leg.

In Tennessee a two year finds his mother’s gun and shoots her in the stomach. She’s in serious but stable condition.

New Jersey four year old shoots a six year old dead...in the head.

Maryland man drops gun. It discharges and wounds him.

Tennesee man attempts to clean his gun and accidentally kills himself.

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

We're asked to trust these people. Gun owners are safety conscious. Allowing people to walk around carrying concealed weapons is supposed to make us all safer, reduce our risk of harm. Guns don't kill people...unless you drop them, clean them or leave them on the stove.:roll:

[trish]

It continues:

Private security guard accidentally shoots a student in Kansas. So much the good-guys-with-a-gun theory.

Indiana man shoots himself twice while “decocking” his 9mm. He forgot it had one in the chamber. Girl friend said he just bought the gun and was “messing around with it.”

Tennessee man shoots himself while cleaning his .22 rifle on his from porch. Of course the gun in his household was no risk to the neighbors, right?

Two guys were admiring a gun in Florida. It discharged. One guy’s left, the other one’s dead.

In South Caroline a three year old child finds a gun and kills himself.

In Geogia a man accidentally discharged his Smith & Wesson (he was just “checking” it) and sent a bullet through his hand and leg. He’s no danger to those who live around him though.

Twenty three year old kid shoots a friend while “messing” with a revolver. It’s okay though, only the people in his proximity in Dover, Delaware were ever in danger.

Oh wait, Dover’s a bit more dangerous than that: Mr. Peace of Dover accidentally shot a friend (the bullet entering his calf and breaking his tibia) while “messing” around with his Smith and Wesson .357.



http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[hippifried]

You're having way too much fun reporting on the stupid, Trish.

[trish]

It's educational. The lesson is obviously that more guns don't make us safer. It also has an entertaining three-stooges character to it. It would be amusing if it weren't horribly marred by the involvement of so many children and innocent by-standers. That (imo) underscores the seriousness of the issue.

[broncofan]

If someone could tell a story about a gun owner playing hero and blasting his way out of a sticky situation it would resonate (counter-intuitively as a gun control argument) just because of how rare it is.

Like someone pulls into a gas station and attempts to rob it at gunpoint, unfortunately for them a hungangels member is there, pulls out a .45, aims it around a mother and her two children in the candy aisle and blows the robber's brains out, splattering blood and skull fragments all over the bewildered cashier. Then we can discuss how that act can help us create the society we really want to live in. A few stories like this for every 50 children and adults blowing their brains out by accident would convince me...of the stupidity of gun lobbyists.

[buttslinger]

It's not like the Senate is going to call you up and ask your opinion, If you want shit done you have to do it before the election and get these guys out of office who have arteries like 80 year old copper pipe. I would wager every person in Congress knows these laws are bullshit, but the politicians are businessmen first, protectors of children second.

[zulusierra]

It continues:

Private security guard accidentally shoots a student in Kansas. So much the good-guys-with-a-gun theory...“messing” around with his Smith and Wesson .357. http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

Having a gun does not make one "armed" any more than owning a piano makes one a pianist.

I am as pro-2nd as one gets and even I shudder at how many folks lack respect and fear for tools whose functions are break things and kill people.

Natural selection in all its functional glory is allowed to work its magic in this segment of the population.

I learned weapons handling in the USMC. Even cops scare me with their lack of discipline. When people ask me what kind of gun they should buy I generally steer them towards CS spray if I don't think they are going to commit to training with their weapon until it is muscle memory.

More ppl have been killed or maimed by "unloaded" guns than any other tool out there, lel.

[trish]

Natural selection in all its functional glory is allowed to work its magic in this segment of the population.In this case it was selection against an innocent by-stander;not the pro handling the gun.

More pl have been killed ... by guns... Exactly, guns DO kill people.

[robertlouis]

In this case it was selection against an innocent by-stander;not the pro handling the gun.


And all too often it's an innocent party - a young child or a relation - who suffers or dies. That isn't natural selection. It's as unnatural, violent and cruel as it gets.

[hippifried]

It's educational. The lesson is obviously that more guns don't make us safer. It also has an entertaining three-stooges character to it. It would be amusing if it weren't horribly marred by the involvement of so many children and innocent by-standers. That (imo) underscores the seriousness of the issue.

Well yeah... But if stupid people keep shooting themselves, doesn't that tend to slow, albeit minimally, the deterioration of the overall gene pool? Although I will admit that it'd be better if they stopped shooting themselves in the leg & aimed just a little higher.

[zulusierra]

In this case it was selection against an innocent by-stander;not the pro handling the gun.
Exactly, guns DO kill people.

That is the point of that particular tool.

As a former Marine, I'm under no delusion that they ultimately serve any other purpose. It does bother me a little when pro-2a folks won't admit that and dance around the subject.

[zulusierra]

And all too often it's an innocent party - a young child or a relation - who suffers or dies. That isn't natural selection. It's as unnatural, violent and cruel as it gets.

Unfortunately, if you dig a little deeper into the statistics, the "children" include a good amount of 16-18 y/o gang members. It generally includes people who will most likely never make a net contribution towards society. It is sad.

And yes, a population in a specific location making poor behavioral decisions that reduce the chance of their progeny and kin passing on their genes to the next generation is the very definition of natural selection.

[trish]

So the security guard was related to the student?

[robertlouis]

Unfortunately, if you dig a little deeper into the statistics, the "children" include a good amount of 16-18 y/o gang members. It generally includes people who will most likely never make a net contribution towards society. It is sad.

And yes, a population in a specific location making poor behavioral decisions that reduce the chance of their progeny and kin passing on their genes to the next generation is the very definition of natural selection.

It might be anecdotal, but most of Trish's cases referred to very young children, and if their deaths/injuries have any statistical significance it surely demands at the very least a commitment by gun owners to be a lot more responsible than some of them seem to be with their weapons in the home.

And as a corollary a ban on weapons being kept in any home where a gun accident, fatal or otherwise, is shown to have been caused by negligence.

[zulusierra]

It might be anecdotal, but most of Trish's cases referred to very young children, and if their deaths/injuries have any statistical significance it surely demands at the very least a commitment by gun owners to be a lot more responsible than some of them seem to be with their weapons in the home.

And as a corollary a ban on weapons being kept in any home where a gun accident, fatal or otherwise, is shown to have been caused by negligence.
You come across a thoughtful man with a good heart.

The world needs more people like that. I disagree with your conclusion on arms but respect your opinion.

[trish]

Even accicental shoting today in six States. Again Tennesee wins the most dangerous State award. In today's mix we have one robber accidentally shooting a fellow henchman. We also have one police officer shooting another police officer in the shoulder. The only thing that can stop a good guy with a gun is another good guy with a gun.

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[Willie Escalade]

Posted this on my Instagram...

[trish]

Man I hate autocorrect. That was supposed to be "Seven accidental shootings..." I'm on the road this week. I'll be poking at the virtual keyboard on my iPad and responding to fewer posts.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/04/10/1844121/4-accidental-toddler-shootings/?mobile=wt

[Ben]

G.W. Bush was for assault rifle ban & closing gun show loophole:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7M3rLWLoVY

[yodajazz]

http://news.yahoo.com/funeral-held-nj-boy-6-shot-dead-playmate-183033409.html

Unless a person does something to really piss someone off, a thief would more than likely use a gun for material gain, not to shoot a six year old. People with children, are generally safer, keeping weapons secured. curiousity is natural in children. So is anger and conflict, in their teenage years. Compared to the likeliness of such things happening, a home invasion is very remote. How likely is it, that a bored child will look in their parents, drawers and closets, while they are away? How many teens will have a phylsical fight with peers? How many are bullied? introducing the possiblily of access to guns, to immature youth, is a greater danger, than being robbed at gunpoint. Didn't the teen who killed at Newtown, use they gun purchased by his parents to kill one of them? It's not about confiscating guns, it's about rethinking what is safety.

My link was one of the incidents mentioned in Trish's last link.

[fivekatz]

I still say the answer is for people to have to insure their guns they same way they'd insure their car.

Proper gun safes and such would create lower rates, while assault weapons would carry a higher premium.

It would create a whole new revenue stream for big finance and big finance is a lobby that can take on gun manufacturers and the NRA.

This would infringe on the right to bear arms, only require that owners provide financial responsibility in cases where their fire arms are misused and the owner has a true liability.

This would change the conversation in the US radically IMHO. And it would do a service for victims. If one parent does not secure his weapon and his child hurts or kills another child, the parents of the victim could be compensated.

It is a win-win IMHO and if I need to register my car and insure it, why not my guns? The 2nd Amendment does not say the right is without any regulation or financial responsibility for misuse after all.

[hippifried]

I don't like mandatory insurance or any other form of privatized taxation. It never works because rates can't be controlled. Adding another layer of control by the phantom "marketplace" won't do anything but piss off a whole bunch of people who are all armed. It won't take long for gun folks to get hep to the scam & start refusing to pay. Then what? Gonna make the paranoia behind this thread into reality?

There's no "right", enumerated or in common law, to drive a car on the public roads. Over & over, courts have upheld the States' contention that driving is a privilege, granted by State authority. Until that mindset gets shot down, we're syuck with the private tax that keeps going up, due to supernatural forces in the phantom marketplace. It's bogus & needs to go. I'm not holding my breath. The 2nd Amendment makes the insurance comparison bogus. The last major ruling by SCOTUS doubles down on the "right" to keep & bear arms. None of this is going away. Regulation isn't illegal, but it has to be approached from workable angles. Not even the vociferous gun enthusiasts want them in the hands of assholes or crazies who shoot up schools, theaters, churches, political meet & greets, etc. That's the common ground to get started.

[trish]

A thirteen year was shot and killed in a household where several children ages one to thirteen were playing with a firearm. What happened to this child's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? It got trumped and throttled by the right to bare arms.
http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[hippifried]

I don't disagree with the sentiment, Trish, but I don't think sentiment is what'll carry this through. Sentiment draws attention to the issue. These last several acts of insanity &/or terrorism, coupled with the completely inane response of the NRA, has everybody's attention. Lots of sentimental support too. Calm deliberation will carry the day from here.

[trish]

Anecdotal evidence is often selected to evoke a certain sentiment. A day by day report of gun accidents in the US is merely a sequential listing of the data as it comes in. If the data happens to evoke horror and depict the the risks to the innocent in graphic detail so be it. Guns are lethal and people are stupid. We need to make it difficult for the latter to obtain the former. We need to hold gun owners liable for the mayhem their weapon causes, even if that means each weapon must carry a license, be registered and insured against misuse.

[buttslinger]

....Calm deliberation will carry the day from here.

I'm not so sure, I think it's best to have Sandy Hook survivors camped out in the halls of Congress if you want to get anything done. Reagan and Bush both were against military style arms, on film, but you know they will wait and let the Democats spend their political capital pushing through a ban. We had to have Brady in a wheel chair last time we passed a ban on this stuff. There are so many layers of BS, Republicans and Democratic, and the PEOPLE are even worse. Gore lost in 2000 because of MONICA LEWINSKI!!!!!
And even if harsh measures are passed, for the most part, it won't effect the home grown terrorists, it will effect the guys who buy guns to run up to New York or down to Mexico.
Protecting Americans from themselves can also splash back on things like censorship, The Mothers of Prevention are out there agin video games, PORNO, even my right to drive drunk!!!(ha ha, I quit that) Nobody fights over whether or not we have schools or police, we fight over the positions that have so many layers and mixed feelings, like we're LOOKIN for something to fight about, just to make things interesting.
As I said before, I think Obama has had an eight year plan from Day One, and I don't think guns were any part of it. In one sense the President's only job is to sign bills and prevent WWIII, but in the opposite sense I guarantee you Obama is trying to shift the whole playing field on it's axis so the water naturally flows downhill towards the People, instead of the Rich. That's a lot more ambitious than a ban on People with nothing to live for except shooting things up, but it's actually a lot more practical. Kinda.
If Obama is going to pass the baton to Hillary in 2016, it is important that Americans have nothing big in their little heads to blame Obama on.
That is the kind of calm deliberation that counts. Error free football.

[fivekatz]

Auto Insurance is not a tax. It is providing proof of one's ability to pay damages in the case of liability. Owning a gun and being able to take financial responsibility for it if it is misused under your ownership are two separate things.

Of course there would be uninsured gun owners just as there are uninsured motorists and businesses that don't keep up current workers compensation insurance.

It seems at moments the best defense for doing nothing is that no solution will create a 100% solution. But the only thing we know for sure is that doing nothing assures nothing changes.

[hippifried]

Mandatory "insurance" is a tax because it's mandatory. In the case of cars, it's a fluctuating continuous fee required to own a vehicle. Failure to pay is a criminal offense. Same goes for guns, except that the claim of "privilege" can't be used. You're talking about tacking a lease fee on a right. That won't work. You're just begging for mass civil disobedience, & shouldn't expect Thoreau's passive thoughtfulness. The mildest backlash to this proposal would be giving outfits like the NRA even more power than they've ever had. I'm not advocating doing nothing. I'm advocating a deliberate incremental approach that won't blow up & cause nothing getting done.

[trish]

"Mandatory" is not a sufficient condition for being a tax or a fee. If insurance paid to a private entity to cover any liability accrued is a tax, then so is the price of the gun itself paid to a private dealer, and so is the price of the ammunition paid to a private dealer. All are costs (not taxes or fees) associated with acquiring and using a firearm. The Constitution doesn't guarantee you ownership of a gun; a very free reading of it might guarantee you the right to own one. There's a difference. The former is a privilege, the latter is perhaps a right depending on how one reads the amendment.

[robertlouis]

This "fast-approaching" gun ban is slower than an asthmatic snail on crutches.....

[fivekatz]

Mandatory "insurance" is a tax because it's mandatory. In the case of cars, it's a fluctuating continuous fee required to own a vehicle. Failure to pay is a criminal offense. Same goes for guns, except that the claim of "privilege" can't be used. You're talking about tacking a lease fee on a right. That won't work. You're just begging for mass civil disobedience, & shouldn't expect Thoreau's passive thoughtfulness. The mildest backlash to this proposal would be giving outfits like the NRA even more power than they've ever had. I'm not advocating doing nothing. I'm advocating a deliberate incremental approach that won't blow up & cause nothing getting done.IMHO that right is not regardless of responsibility and responsibility for liability expressed either as a posted bond or more commonly an insurance policy.

The NRA's power IMHO is almost entirely founded on political and industry money, not "Joe Six-Pack" and the membership fees. It was clearly expressed in 2012 when the NRA endorsed Romney who had signed tough gun laws as Gov. of Ma. , while Obama's primary executive action on guns in his first term was to allow firearms into National Parks, because after all you never know when a crazy person could attack you in your tent.

I am not saying it will happen as far as mandatory proof of insurance but IMHO it does not conflict at all with the right to bear arms. Since the manufactures aren't exposed to product liability, isn't a gun owner liable for the misuse of the product and should be able to show that he/she can pay for damages caused by negligent use of his/her weapon?

Too many guns is all I know for sure based on a vague passage in the Bill of Rights that was written by Patrick Henry, a slave owning non-conformist who distrusted any form of government and certainly had no comprehension of a nation with 100's of millions of people and tens of thousands of assault weapons.

The fact that we as a nation argue over this as though ownership of assault weapons was on a level playing field with equal rights and freedom of religion is just an embarrassment to this citizen.

[zulusierra]

"ASSAULT WEAPON" Misnomer

1) Assault weapons (a machinegun having selective-fire capability) were originally taxed ($200 or $3,448.28 in 2013 dollars per item) and required to be registered by National Firearms Act of 1934. This was essentially a de-facto ban.

2) Gun Control Act of 1968 imposes even stiffer regulations/penalties and there is a 1-month amnesty for unregistered assault weapons.

3)Due to blatant law-breaking by the ATF the congress passes Firearms Owner Protection Act of 1986. Many positive restrictions upon law enforcement were in the bill but a "poison-pill" was inserted by Rep. Hughes.
This amendment banned the registration of any newly manufactured assault weapons to civilians after May, 1986.
Reagan, no friend to gun owners, signed it anyway.

4) Bush Sr. (NO friend to the 2a!!!) passes a bunch of gun laws in 1989 that mainly regulates parts from overseas and ammo.

5) in 1994, CLinton signs his "assault weapons ban". Since true assault weapons already been banned for a LONG time by this point all the law manages to do is change cosmetic features.

6) 2004.. AWB sunsets...blood in the streets...ded babbys errywhere...cops gittin killed left and right.

There is nowhere else left to go than to ban semi-auto since full-auto is already banned. That's why it wont happen.

I think regulation will be through health-care, ammo, or some other back door if they are successful. You and I will not be one bit safer if they succeed.

Although... I will probably stand to make a small fortune. A $700 m16 does not sell under $20,000 due to the fact that only the grandfathered ones can be transferred. A $150 MAC 11 goes for $5,000. Except for criminals. They don't do it legally so they get their M16's for $700 all day long.



Trusting the American government in 2013...there really is no excuse for that.

[zulusierra]

Proper gun safes and such would create lower rates, while assault weapons would carry a higher premium.

Why?

MOST crime and accidents are committed with small-caliber handguns.

Kinda hard to conceal a 5 ft long rifle, lel. Also kind hard to shoot yourself by accident.

[zulusierra]

What happened to this child's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? It got trumped and throttled by the right to bare arms.
http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/
Umm... no.

It got trumped by a chain of failure leading to a tragedy.

A house full of unattended kids playing with loaded weapons?

Sounds like a fine group of responsible citizens. I'm a tax-payer, not a fucking baby-sitter.

I am responsible for the safety of my son and wife, no-one else. I have decided to be armed. You have decided to be defenseless. I respect your decision. Respect mine.

[trish]

Like you every gun owner claims to be a responsible citizen. Time to make it more difficult for "responsible" citizens to acquire guns and to take responsibility (I.e. assume liability) for the guns they have. Yes, more accidents involve small caliber handguns. Good argument for regulating those s well as higher caliber semi-automatics. Past regulations, thanks to the NRA, like current regulations were chocked full of loopholes. Today's ATF doesn't even have a director. If any organization is putting us at risk and encroaching on our lives it's the NRA and the manufacturers who support them...not government.

[zulusierra]

Like you every gun owner claims to be a responsible citizen. Time to make it more difficult for "responsible" citizens to acquire guns and to take responsibility (I.e. assume liability) for the guns they have. Yes, more accidents involve small caliber handguns. Good argument for regulating those s well as higher caliber semi-automatics. Past regulations, thanks to the NRA, like current regulations were chocked full of loopholes. Today's ATF doesn't even have a director. If any organization is putting us at risk and encroaching on our lives it's the NRA and the manufacturers who support them...not government.
Fuck the NRA. Buncha country-club republicans.
The ATF is a racist, criminal organization.

I actually have no problem with sensible regulation. Most of my weapons are registered and insured due to the fact that they are restricted (Title II, or Class 3) type anyway.

The problem is that errybody knows the endgame is trying to get them banned eventually through a death of 1,000 cuts. We know what is proposed A) will not reduce crime and B) is just another gradual step in thedirection of eventual banning.

Therefore, we can't give an inch. We know what you want and how you plan to get it.

[zulusierra]

Like you every gun owner claims to be a responsible citizen. Time to make it more difficult for "responsible" citizens to acquire guns

I am in an interracial marriage with a mixed child in the deep south.

There's a whole lot of folks whose worldview is stuck in 1935. Who is supposed to protect my family? The racist cops?

If something happens how much faith should I have in the justice system to rectify it?

I've already experienced discrimination from blacks and whites due to who I love. I don't trust the police or courts. Why would I not use the skills the military taught me to ensure our safety?

[trish]

The ATF is a racist, criminal organization.yeah, right. You just blew yor credibility.

I am in an interracial marriage...Who is supposed to protect my family?
Against what? Suicide? Accidental injury from handling a firearm? From your firearms? From sophistry? An automatic weapon is the last thing you'll need to protect your family.

I'm an African-Korean, transgender American and I don't need a firearm or any other form of lethal weapon as a security blanket. Neither do you.

[zulusierra]

yeah, right. You just blew yor credibility.Implying I had any credibility to start with. (FAST & FURIOUS???)

Against what? Suicide?My body, my life, my choice, my right Accidental injury from handling a firearm? 4 years USMC; it's not that fucking hard not to shoot someone From your firearms? From sophistry? An automatic weapon is the last thing you'll need to protect your family. You don't need alcohol, a large dog, or a car that will go over the speed limit.You are right. I don't need a an automatic weapon. I'm good with a revolver and flashlight. Just so happens I was trained and happen most effective with an M16/AR15 pattern rifle.

I'm an African-Korean, transgender American and I don't need a firearm or any other form of lethal weapon as a security blanket. Neither do you.
Then why does Law Enforcement need the security blanket that is more likely to hurt them than save them? It doesn't work both ways.

Should off-duty cops be allowed to have guns? Retired cops? Active military? Retired military?

It's not a matter of gunz/nogunz. It's whether or not certain groups have a monopoly on deadly force. I believe that is where we start to diverge. I don't believe in state monopoly of force. Period.

I do enjoy hearing other viewpoints such as yours. I may not agree, but then again, I may be presented with something I've never considered before. (And I enjoy learning)

Anywayz, we're just two random assholes OTI and this is all mental masturbation. Were I to meet you in real life I'd be happy to offer you the beverage of your choice and break bread. I'm sure the convo would be lively and worth the cost of admission.

[trish]

Against what? Suicide?My body, my life, my choice, my rightNot necessarily your body we're talking about. You have a wife and a child and others also visit your home. It's not all about you.

[trish]

Then why does Law Enforcement need the security blanket.They don't. Then of course unlike civilians who claim they need guns for protection, police officers don't use their firearms as security blankets.

[trish]

It's not a matter of gunz/nogunznever said it was. It's a matter of making them harder to obtain. E.g. If you think you need a gun to protect yourself against the ATF you shouldn't have one.

[zulusierra]

They don't. Then of course unlike civilians who claim they need guns for protection, police officers don't use their firearms as security blankets.

Just as an aside police are are civvies.

If you are not subject to the UCMJ (Courts Martial) you are a civilian.

[zulusierra]

never said it was. It's a matter of making them harder to obtain. E.g. If you think you need a gun to protect yourself against the ATF you shouldn't have one.

Well, atm the only people getting maimed and killed due to the actions of the ATF are Mexican citizens, and as we know guns are illegal in Mexico so we don't need to worry about making it harder.

[trish]

Originally Posted by trish
They don't. Then of course unlike civilians who claim they need guns for protection, police officers don't use their firearms as security blankets.
Just as an aside police are are civvies.

If you are not subject to the UCMJ (Courts Martial) you are a civilian.
So what? My post specified a subclass of civilians distinct from the police.

[fivekatz]

The Center for American Progress recently made a report that demonstrates that stronger gun regulation does make a difference or in this case that the absence of control of hand weapons increases homicides per 100,000 in population.

The ten states with the worst homicide rate per 100,000 were all states that did not require permits for hand guns. Louisiana came in as the worst with Hawaii the best. Just in case you thought that being a remote state like Hawaii is has something to do with Hawaii's positive ranking pristine Alaska came in second. And not shockingly the list is filled with red states like MS, MO, AL, GA, AR.

The source of the raw data used by the progressive think tank came from the NRA.

Probably the two single most dangerous fire arms today are hand weapons which are easily used in skirmishes and subject to home accidents and assault weapons which are by design able to kill at a fast rate.

Permits seem to create a solid decrease in violence via hand weapons. So why not require permits for hand guns though out the US and apply similar permits for assault weapons?

[yodajazz]

While people live in fear that gangs armed with automatic weapons, will invade their homes. Criminals are thinking of more efficient ways. This one was caught after getting over a million.

http://www.thestate.com/2013/04/16/2727326/columbia-man-headed-to-prison.html

[hippifried]

One more time:
There's NO "approaching gun ban", at any speed. This myth is a bunch of hyperbolic paranoia, just like it always is when it pops up, & it pops up every time somebody gets stupid with a gun.

[Silcc69]

One more time:
There's NO "approaching gun ban", at any speed. This myth is a bunch of hyperbolic paranoia, just like it always is when it pops up, & it pops up every time somebody gets stupid with a gun.

I'm sure gun stores love this rhetoric as the gun sales always shoot through the rood when a dem is in the WH.

[zulusierra]

I'm sure gun stores love this rhetoric as the gun sales always shoot through the rood when a dem is in the WH.

You are right.

I saw a poster in a gun store that had a picture of Obama that read "Gun Salesman of the Decade".

[robertlouis]

One more time:
There's NO "approaching gun ban", at any speed. This myth is a bunch of hyperbolic paranoia, just like it always is when it pops up, & it pops up every time somebody gets stupid with a gun.

Indeed. The senate votes down the attempt to introduce wider checks on arms sales. The NRA immediately hails it as a victory for freedom.

How depressingly, predictably, inevitably familiar.

More innocent blood to be shed on the corrupt hands of congress. SMDH.

[fivekatz]

I think that this time it won't go away. There will never be gun bans but while today showed the flaws of allowing "silent filibuster" and the cowardice of many senators.

The fight will continue and just as many of the same parlimentary tactics and similar inflammatory speeches about freedom and constitutional purity could not perpetuate segregation in the US, so too will this black mark on the US body politic pass.

How many more have to die while we wait we can only guess but arms without restriction will some day be as out of touch with reality and morality as was the ethnic cleansing of Native Americans or the suppression of woman's votes and then rights.

It will pass because the majority of Americans want intelligent registration, background checks and limits on magazine capacity. When Congress finds itself this out of step with public opinion, regardless of the success of a cloture vote, a corner was turned today, one that the NRA celebrates today but will soon recognize was the sea change.

[trish]

I'm sure gun stores love this rhetoric as the gun sales always shoot through the rood when a dem is in the WH.It's true that Ombama is a great gun salesman, but it's not because of rhetoric nor political action. All through his first term there was absolutely no move toward any sort of tighter regulations on guns. Even after Gifords was shot, there was no move toward making tougher gun laws. Yet during this same period ALEC was writing boiler plate concealed carry laws and stand your ground laws and racing them through conservative State legislatures. The Obama administration was silent on gun laws even when Travon Martin was slaughtered in the cleanly swept streets of a gated Florida community. Yet all through his first term gun sales were through the roof and dealers couldn't keep ammunition on the shelves. Gee, funny how paranoid certain stupid assholes can be when a black man wins the White House.

[fivekatz]

No kidding Trish. I can only imagine now that the carnage of Newtown or just the fact that Obama can not run again has him fired up about gun out-of-control just how many more weapons the industry can sell to fools who think the black guy is out to screw them when in reality it is and has long been a bunch of rich mostly white guys out to screw the working dude.

Sadly considering opinion polls tell us that the vast majority of Americans are for closing the gun show loophole and better background checks and we still end up with a cloture motion in the Senate, that for most of the pols only personalization would change their minds.

[robertlouis]

No comment required.

[Prospero]

A cowardly and nauseating day.... and doubtless there will be gloatesr and jerks rubbing their hands at this "victory for freedom."

Would it have made any difference if it had been a shooter in the crowd in Boston instead of a bomber.

Hey NRA - why not call for legalisation of bombs.

[Willie Escalade]

Tis was emailed to me...

http://www.nationalmemo.com/is-this-the-greatest-commercial-for-new-gun-laws-youve-ever-seen/

Ed -- A Petition For Stronger Gun Laws - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LORVfnFtcH0)

[thombergeron]

Takeaway line from Gabbrielle Giffords's editorial (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/opinion/a-senate-in-the-gun-lobbys-grip.html?_r=0) in today's New York Times:

"...if we cannot make our communities safer with the Congress we have now, we will use every means available to make sure we have a different Congress..."

I couldn't stand Max Baucus already. His vote yesterday just makes it that much easier to fundraise to kick his ass out of the Senate in 2014.

[Prospero]

This thread was started when it really looked as if some form of sanity might prevail. We know better now.

[thombergeron]

One more time:
There's NO "approaching gun ban", at any speed. This myth is a bunch of hyperbolic paranoia, just like it always is when it pops up, & it pops up every time somebody gets stupid with a gun.

We are so far from a gun ban that yesterday that a competing amendment from Texan John Cornyn that would federalize concealed carry permits -- in other words, states would be forced to respect concealed carry permits issued in other states -- actually received more yes votes than the background check amendment.

It didn't pass because it also did not receive the 60 votes necessary to end a filibuster, but an amendment to loosen current gun regulations received 57 yes votes in the U.S. Senate, while a bill to moderately expand background checks on gun purchases received only 55 yes votes.

[Prospero]

Thombgeron... I honestly don't know if this deserves dark laughter of the despairing kind or ... well

[thombergeron]

This thread was started when it really looked as if some form of sanity might prevail. We know better now.

It's just going to take a long time, Prospero. U.S. political institutions are incredibly inefficient and very bad at innovating, but there is significant momentum among the public. Yesterday's vote will make a difference in the 2014 midterms.

[robertlouis]

It's just going to take a long time, Prospero. U.S. political institutions are incredibly inefficient and very bad at innovating, but there is significant momentum among the public. Yesterday's vote will make a difference in the 2014 midterms.

I only hope you're right, but we all know that the GOP-NRA axis will come up with some major diversionary tactics to avoid any return to sanity. I despair, I really do.

[robertlouis]

Prick of the Week.

But not a million miles from some of the posters hereabouts in his thinking.

http://http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/17/conservative-radio-host-families-of-newtown-shooting-victims-can-go-to-hell/

[yodajazz]

It's true that Ombama is a great gun salesman, but it's not because of rhetoric nor political action. All through his first term there was absolutely no move toward any sort of tighter regulations on guns. Even after Gifords was shot, there was no move toward making tougher gun laws. Yet during this same period ALEC was writing boiler plate concealed carry laws and stand your ground laws and racing them through conservative State legislatures. The Obama administration was silent on gun laws even when Travon Martin was slaughtered in the cleanly swept streets of a gated Florida community. Yet all through his first term gun sales were through the roof and dealers couldn't keep ammunition on the shelves. Gee, funny how paranoid certain stupid assholes can be when a black man wins the White House.


Tis was emailed to me...

http://www.nationalmemo.com/is-this-the-greatest-commercial-for-new-gun-laws-youve-ever-seen/

Ed -- A Petition For Stronger Gun Laws - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LORVfnFtcH0)

Great posts! More Federal Licensed gun dealers, than Post Offices, McDonalds, and Starbucks combined! Wow.

[Ben]

Gun Reform Fails:

Gun Reform Fails - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48HoyDbwZIM)

[Prospero]

Just now ...
Five Killed In Washington State Shooting
Five people have been killed in a shooting at an apartment complex south of Seattle, including a suspect who was shot by officers.
Police say officers responded to a 9:30pm emergency call at an apartment complex in Federal Way of shots being fired.
In addition to the possible suspect, the victims also include three other men and one woman.
There was no immediate word what set off the gunfire.


Just another quiet day in gun-toting America. Hey ho...

[Prospero]

Some interesting comments/reflections in the UK Press.

The Guardian and cartoonist Gerald Scarfe in yesterday's Sunday Times.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/21/atrocities-boston-marathon-hard-tackle

[trish]

Between April 18 and the 21st:

At a Minnesota gun show a handgun accidentally discharges as the experienced vendor demonstrates how to field strip the weapon.

An experienced Ohio police chief accidentally shoots himself holstering his gun.

A fourteen year old shoots himself in the hand with a ill-gotten weapon.

A rural Indiana man accidentally shot himself in the head and died.

A three year old boy fired his father’s 9mm handgun inside their apartment.

Experienced Texas policeman accidentally shot a man in the hand.

Sixteen year old boy was accidentally shot in the leg on the campus of the University of Louisiana at Monroe.

Oregon man dies of an accidentally self-inflicted handgun wound.

Georgia man accidentally shot himself in the leg with a .22 revolver.

An Indiana woman accidentally fires a rifle into the apartment below her through the ceiling in an attempt to “twirl” the gun “Rifleman style.”

Texas man accidentally shot himself in the head. He survived. Wasn’t using his brain anyway, didn’t need it.

Concealed handgun owners while taking a class at a shooting range shot a fisherman in a nearby pond.

North Carolina man accidentally shot himself in the thigh.

New Yorker shot his hand.

Four year boy died of a gunshot wound inside his house in Oregon.

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/


When will Americans realize that a gun in the home increases your chances of dying of a gunshot wound threefold.

[trish]

From April 28 to 29

Experience Pennsylvania policeman accidentally shoots himself in the leg.

A man in Kansas accidentally shot himself.

Twenty year old Foridian accidentally shoots and kills nineteen year old friend. He was “showing off” his gun.

A fifty-four year old Illinois man shoots himself in the stomach.

Pennsylvania woman was accidentally shot in the stomach at the Erie Biker Ball.

In Virgina a gun is accidentally discharged in a car and wounds two people.

Forty-two year old Pennsylanian accidentally shoots and kills her husband while he was instructing her on the proper use of firearms.

Fifteen year old Texan accidentally shoots his brother in the head while the two were playing with a gun they found.

Six year old Florida girl shoots herself playing with a handgun. She and another small child were playing with a gun.

Georgia policeman shoots himself during a remedial training course.

Sixty-four year old Pennsylvania man was shooting at a “threatening” dog. The bullet passed through the dog and wounded the dog’s owner.

A Washington man accidentally shot himself with a newly purchased gun while driving. He just couldn’t wait to fondle his new penis.

Louisiana man is shot while attempting to fix a jammed weapon.

Wisconsin policeman shot himself in the leg holstering his gun while off-duty.


http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/


Background checks are necessary to prevent truly unstable people from easily obtaining firearms. But we also need laws that hold owners responsible for negligence that results in injury or death. It’s negligence on the owner’s part if a child is found playing with a gun. It’s negligence if your gun accidentally discharges in a home, a car, a bar or anywhere else. Even people who say they’re experienced and say they’re always careful have accidents. A gun is not a penis. You don’t need to get is out and show it off to your friends. You don’t need to play with it or stroke it ‘til is discharges. Keep it in your pants. Better yet, leave at the store. Unless you’re a hunter or a sport shooter you’re never going to need it. Rather than ever being used in the act of protection, a gun in the home is more likely to be involved in an accident or a suicide of a family member.