Birfers, Truthers, and Chemies

[chefmike]

Birfers, Truthers, and Chemies

Conspiracy theories provide such a unique insight into dysfunctional logic and cognitive dissonance. It always amazes me how much CTists cling to their theories in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. To be sure, there are always those who flirt the edge, being briefly sucked into the vortex of the CT before they snap out of it. There are even those rare few with the courage to stand up and admit, however embarrassing it may be, that they were taken in and fooled by the CT. Most CTist only seem to cling to their pet theories for as long as it gives them that feeling of being “someone special,” someone who is above the crowd, unique and iconoclastic. Over time, however, CTists become increasingly marginalized until just a few die hard, true believers are left. For these people, the CT is not about facts or reality, it is about faith. At this point, the CT has devolved into little more than a fringe cult.

Thanks to the Internet, we have seen three major CT phenomena arise, spread, then devolve over the past 10 years. Actually there are more, but these are the three that everyone is most familiar with. Also, while the internet is responsible for the large exposure of these theories to the general population, it is also responsible for the rapid life cycle of emergence, growth, marginalization, and death of a popular CT.

The first CT to go through this accelerated life cycle was the chemtrails fad that lasted from roughly 1998 to 2003. In retrospect, it is hard to see how the belief that aircraft condensation trails are actually a sophisticated spraying program designed to spread poisons could have been so widely accepted and advocated by so many otherwise reasonably intelligent people, but accepted and proselytized it was.

The one of the main distinguishing characteristics of the “Chemies” was the ignorance of basic atmospheric physics and chemistry. For most of the die hard cultists this ignorance was deliberate and intentional. No matter how much you explained the physics behind contrail formation and persistence, no matter how many scientists and peer reviewed studies that you pointed them to that refuted their ideas, they willfully hung on to their beliefs. Often, they formed their own set of self referencing pseudo-scientific web related sources for their theories. These websites offered a bewildering array of “Proof” that actually consisted of a tangled web of circular citations that ultimately were based on fantasy, not hard facts. Those chemies whose ignorance of the science involved was not deliberate, but rather based on a simple lack of education in the relevant fields were usually the first to abandon the theory.

The other major component of the chemtrail theory was the belief in the power of a few people to secretly manipulate vast numbers of people who would unknowingly carry out their evil bidding. This aspect of the theory is so totally divorced from the realities of organizational structure and logistical operations and basic common sense that I find it almost incomprehensibly ignorant. I can only surmise the rather sad conclusion that this is based in large part to the isolated and socially unconnected lives led by the adherents to this belief. Consider the vast number op people who have to service, maintain, and crew even a small airline company. Imagine the existence of a clandestine group the size of United Airlines whose sole purpose is to surreptitiously spray poison chemicals upon an unsuspecting populace (including their own families). One common explanation given was that the pilots “were afraid to speak out” or that they “were kept in the dark.” Thus, the CTist was able to establish, in his own mind, a level of moral courage and intellect above that of a “common” pilot.

Fortunately, this once common internet CT has faded away to general obscurity.

The next major CT to hit the internet was the “9/11 truth” movement. The “truther” CT began in earnest when a couple of college drop outs produced an internet movie called “loose change” that combined several diverse CTs regarding the 9/11 attacks into one package. Unfortunately, this “movie” was so riddled with errors and omissions and demonstratively false claims that they producers had to re-edit it and re-release it, not just once, but four separate times.

A close examination of the truthers reveals striking similarities to the chemtrail theories that preceded it. (Indeed, many of the hardcore chemies were also enamored of the truther cult as well).

Like the chemies before them, the truthers relied on deliberate and/ or unintentional ignorance of physics and structural engineering to support their case. Indeed, they even went one step further in the promotion of the pseudo-science to support their cause that they even tried to establish their own “peer” journal with which to publish and disseminate the facts and truth as they saw it. However, since most of their claims were not based on facts or science but dogma, the so-called “Journal of Nine Eleven Studies quickly fell apart and various sects with competing theories and beliefs split the movement.

Furthermore, the truthers also clung to the belief that a small set of powerful people were able to control and direct the actions of many people without those people realizing what was going on. A classic example was the oft repeated claim that the rank and file New York Firefighters believe that their were bombs planted in the buildings but that they were such abject cowards that they are afraid to come out and say so because they might lose their pensions. Hopefully, I don’t have to explain the absurdity of this clam.

In addition, like the chemies before them, there was a strong “Us v. Them” current among the proponents of this theory. The adherents believed themselves to be more intelligent and morally superior to the thousands of physicist and engineers the disputed or just plain ignored their claims.

Finally we have the latest internet conspiracy theory. This is the theory that Barack Obama is not qualified to be president because he is not a “natural born” citizen.

A close look at the progress of this theory reveals that it shares many traits with the previous two that I have mentioned.

First, there is the issue of willful ignorance. This time, however, instead of professing an alternate, pseudo-science the “Birthers” instead, cling to a “Pseudo-law.” This pseudo-law ignores the fact that every legitimate legal opinion refutes their claims, that there is long standing case law contrary to their position, and that the statutes that they cite do not actually say what they claim they say.

The concept of the powerful few who are able to manipulate thousands of underlings is well represented in this theory. Dupes, or co-conspirators include the conservative judges on the U.S. supreme court, (in fact they include every judge who has presided over any case remotely related to this CT), the Hawaiian governor (a republican) and her administrative staff including the head of the Hawaiian department of Health as well as the Official State Registrar, the Main stream media, Congress, the Senate, and secretaries of every state in the union. Like the other CTists before them, one gets the distinct impression that the adherents to this CT are so socially disconnected and insecure about their place in life around them that they have to present themselves as champions of the Constitution, mentally and morally above all those who don’t accept their ideas

Just as the last two CTs faded away, it is only a matter of time before the “birther” movement will also take it’s place in the scrap heap of internet folly. But until then, I am enjoying watching the birthers make complete fools of themselves.

http://www.rantrave.com

[El Nino]

Au contraire, mon frère

[chefmike]

Look!

I caught one!

[El Nino]

You didn't catch squat. That article that you pasted is one of the most flawed and ignorant propaganda pieces, I have ever encountered. I really feel for you man. It is rather apparent that your infinitesimally sized grasp of the world is exactly what the compartmentalization tactics of corporate news have been trying to achieve..
Look, they caught one. Have fun in the box; that is all.

[thx1138]

See! They aren't really there.

[thx1138]

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Scientists_find_active_superthermite_in_WTC_0404.h tml

[thx1138]

BTW: The comments on the "Obama conspiracy" aren't mine. I told the guy who sent them to me the entire matter is totally irrelevant. There is no way in hell Obama will ever be forced out of office. Moreover any replacement would pursue the exact same policies (Bilderbergers). This born in Kenya idea is being promoted by the racist sore losers of the lunatic right.

[Rogers]

Birfers, Truthers, and Chemies

Conspiracy theories provide such a unique insight into dysfunctional logic and cognitive dissonance. ...as long as it gives them that feeling of being “someone special", someone who is above the crowd, unique and iconoclastic.

LMAO at the "Chemtrail Conspiracy Theory"! I'd honestly never heard of it before, but it gave me the best laugh I've had today. And "thx1138" (A film by Lucas which oozes paranoia) post pics of the actual dirty deed being done. OMG, it must be true then! You do know how clouds form, thx1138, right?


"There is a phenomenon known as "paranoid insight" -- this is the moment where the individual who has been anxious about and worrying and fretting about certain disparate and unconnected events in his life, "suddenly sees the light": the construction of the delusional system "makes sense" of all these things that have been stressing and distressing him perhaps for weeks, months, or years.

And of course, if you accept the delusional thinking as even possible instead of delusional, the delusion becomes the best of all possible "explanations". That is why they are so difficult to shake by logic alone."
- Dr. David J. Baxter, Ottawa, Canada.
http://forum.psychlinks.ca/schizophrenia-and-related-disorders/1185-conspiracy-theories-explained.html


Paranoia = fear + pride (mode of vanity)
http://www.confusion.discover-your-mind.co.uk/3b-pride%20and%20paranoia.htm


"Paranoid schizophrenics are prone to delusions, tales in which random events become deeply meaningful. Some believe in complex conspiracies; others think they are Jesus Christ."
- Shitij Kapur, professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto and vice president of research at the Canadian Centre for Addiction and Mental Health.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20050125-000003.html


"Now the drugs don't work, they just make you worse..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc9Scwb6v9U

[thx1138]

more links on chem trails: http://www.prisonplanet.com/chemtrails-nasa-giss-suggests-aerosols-play-a-large-role-in-arctic-warming.html & http://www.prisonplanet.com/concerns-about-chemtrails-given-fresh-impetus.html & http://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-advisor-back-pedals-on-geo-engineering-announcement.html

[thx1138]

another http://www.prisonplanet.com/obamas-plan-to-geo-engineer-the-planet-mirrors-cfr-policy-documents.html

[Oli]

Hello Rogers!!!! I hope your research trip went well. It's nice to see you back.

BTW, didn't you realize the real the Third Reich collapsed wasn't the Soviet armies, or those of the Western Allies, but this:
http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/b17/B17.jpg

Did you really think it was the bombs that did the damage?

[thx1138]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8NmzfjIkI0 good interview on the subject

[trish]

Hello Rogers :) :wink: Welcome back.

[El Nino]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10098903@N00/3229008918/

[Rogers]

BTW, didn't you realize the real the Third Reich collapsed wasn't the Soviet armies, or those of the Western Allies, but this:
http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/b17/B17.jpg

Did you really think it was the bombs that did the damage?

Hi again, Oli and trish. Great to see you too!

I'd not heard of that one either, Oli. :lol: But bringing up W.W.II. is quite appropriate given that Hitler had paranoia and was obsessed with a worldwide Jewish-Commie conspiracy. If you take his personality, his paranoia, his Parkinson's, his heart, testicular, vision and skin lesion problems, it all points to tertiary syphilis. Of all the doctor's he could have choosen to be his personal physician, he choose an expert in veneral disease. He also devoted many pages of Mein Kampff to the subject of syphilis, which he labelled the Jewish disease ("My struggle"... against syphilis perhaps???).

I don't know why his doctor gave him amphetamines, my guess is fatigue which would also fit with a chronic infection, but that alone can initiate paranoia nevermind exacerbate it, because it screws the body's ability to use dopamine. Hitler is a great example of just how contagious madness can be.
http://www.poxhistory.com/work15.htm

[Rogers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8NmzfjIkI0 good interview on the subject

"Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa1X_6c5Oew&feature=related

Philip K. Dick also had paranoia. It pervades all of his writing. I don't know the etiology of his illness, but he eventually developed schizophrenia. I guess if the internet had been around in his day he might have spammed it with link after to link to basically nothing. But luckily for us it wasn't, and he gave us a great body of literature that puts him second only to H.G. Wells as a sci-fi writer.

Because of his books (and his absence of internet activity) his name will be remembered long after most of ours have been long forgotten...

[Rogers]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10098903@N00/3229008918/

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OO, El Nino.

Flickr, HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Fortunately, "they" (whoever "they" are) would need a lot bigger barrels than that, and a shit load more of them to do what you're suggesting.

At the risk of being deluged by a load more of slightly different links, water poisoning is much more effective.

Newsflash: we are poisoning ourselves and our environment. But trust me, there's nothing planned or conspiratorial about it. Quite the reverse actually.

[trish]

Hey, El Nino, it’s well known, among the right people :wink: , that homeopathic concentrations of poisons and toxins are good for you. :) No need to be paranoid. Chill 8) . Just Google homeopathy. :P

[hippifried]

I'll have a wolfbane/belladonna cocktail to go please. :crazy

[NYBURBS]

Without weighing in on the veracity of these other claims/statements I would like to share something. When I was in the military we had to go through this class every now and then. It more or less involved watching some video on the abuse of government secrecy and questionable practices. I'm not entirely sure if everyone had to watch it or just people like myself that had security clearances.

Either way one of the incidents the video documented was the government's secret use (in the 60's I believe) of crop dusting planes to disseminate certain biological agents. Granted I don't think it was anything particularly devastating, but it was enough to make some people sick. I highly doubt that the US Military would make something like that up and then force service members to watch it. So don't be too quick to discount some of these "fringe" reports.

[El Nino]

Truth is stranger than fiction

[trish]

Quite a questioning lot weren't you? What branch of the government or military was doing this? Were civilians flying the dusters? What biological agent? What symptoms did it induce? What follow up studies were done on the population to ascertain whether the alleged illness was in fact induced by the aerosol? To what purpose was the program? Was the population targeted accidentally or intentionally? Why was this being revealed in a "class" and nowhere else? Why does the military now regard this as an abuse of secrecy? What changed? Would they make non-career soldiers aware of it in a class and still do it again? I mean, gee, I would’ve been asking questions till they kick me out of class.
Did you leave the details vague because otherwise you'd be violating the oath you took when obtaining your security clearance, or did the act of dusting civilians with a biological agent not strike you as all that interesting at the time?

[NYBURBS]

Quite a questioning lot weren't you?

Well first of all it was well over 10 years ago that I viewed this tape. The tape itself is not classified, and this is actually public information (though not well publicized perhaps). I found this small tid-bit in a quick google search, it comes from some PBS/NOVA Q&A about bio-weapons:


Q: In the 1950s and 1960s United States government scientists released bacteria over U.S. cities. Even though the scientists claimed that the viruses were harmless, doctors have records proving that many citizens became ill as a result. Why hasn't the U.S. government made reparations to the citizens, and how can we be certain that our own government has not and will not again dump biological weapons on anyone.

Anonymous


A: The microbial agents released over U.S. cities during the biowarfare experiments of the 1950s and 1960s were "simulant" bacteria such as Serratia marescens, which do not harm healthy people but occasionally cause illness in people with an impaired immune system. Although a cluster of cases of S. marescens infection was reported in hospital patients following a biowarfare simulant test in San Francisco, the evidence for a cause-and-effect relationship was not clear-cut, and the U.S. government denied responsibility. Testing of biowarfare simulants over populated areas ended in the 1960s.

Now as far as I can recall the video spoke about somewhat larger infection rates, and the video definitively cast responsibility for the project (and the illnesses) on the US government.

[El Nino]

oh my god, not the government!!!

[chefmike]

"There is a phenomenon known as "paranoid insight" -- this is the moment where the individual who has been anxious about and worrying and fretting about certain disparate and unconnected events in his life, "suddenly sees the light": the construction of the delusional system "makes sense" of all these things that have been stressing and distressing him perhaps for weeks, months, or years.

And of course, if you accept the delusional thinking as even possible instead of delusional, the delusion becomes the best of all possible "explanations". That is why they are so difficult to shake by logic alone."
- Dr. David J. Baxter, Ottawa, Canada.

Indeed.

Ring any bells, El Kaczynski?

How 'bout with you, thxforthetinfoil?

[El Nino]

Nope, sorry Chef. Ideology is a brain disease...

[trish]

So in other words, though admittedly an abuse, the sixties program has none of the elements of what you call the “fringe.” There was no intention to make people ill, the aerosol was thought to harmless, and indeed is harmless except to those with a weakened immune system. The causes of reported incidents of infections were not clearly connected to the spraying. It’s difficult to know what the military thought they were learning from these experiments, but it’s not difficult to believe they would have had such a research program. After all such programs, though unethical, were not illegal until Nixon called a halt to offensive biological weapons research.

Today, such programs are illegal. Today, such a program would definitely be on the fringe of the law. As described, the so called chemtrails are also on the fringe of science as well as the fringe of politics. It seems Obama has secretly gone ahead with a plan to suspend reflective pollutants in the atmosphere to increase the Earth’s albedo and stem the advent of global warming. For some reason his science advisers must of told him the easiest pollutant to suspend would be the heaviest; barium, lead, arsenic, mercury, silver etc. Well according to thx’s link this stuff just falls right to ground in high concentrations where conspiracy buffs can easily detect it. Boy, those climate scientists are a stupid lot! Of course lead is going fall! But it is difficult to imagine how a miles long drawn out trail of lead aerosol would remain undiluted by the ocean of air around it as its falls from thousands of feet up through cross winds and pressure gradients.

The fact that, when it was legal, the military unethically tested strategies for the dispersal of biological agents goes no way toward supporting the current fringe theory of a chemtrail conspiracy. The first was and is quite believable. It’s neither on the fringe of the law (at the time), science or policy. The latter speculation is not credible. It’s fringe science and fringe policy. No one can possibly undertake a massive geo-engineering project (like increasing the albedo of the Earth by suspending reflectant particles in the atmosphere) without invoking the aid of nearly a planet full of people. Moreover, no one would use barium, arsenic or lead when water vapor would do the trick.

[El Nino]

Trish, you know nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing about the program. Just stop already.

[trish]

Oh you didn't like that conspiracy theory? How odd. Don't blame me, I didn't post the link. What's your fav explanation of criss-crossing contrails? Put it into your own words, it's so much more fun that way.

[hippifried]

Oh it's much bigger than you think, Trish. It goes way beyond a government conspiracy. By criss-crossing contrails, a focal aperture is created, defeating the albedo & allowing cosmic rays to libidinally mingle with the heavy metals in the ground. This causes a temporal distortion that lets demons pass through the portal. The conspiracy is intergalactic & interdimentional, as well as dementianal. THEY're using airplanes to disrupt the astral planes! WE'RE DOOMED!! Our only salvation is to convert to the teachings of the prophet L Ron Paul, as interpreted by Alex the baptist, return to our roots as worshipers of the heavy metals, & embrace luddism retroactively.

[trish]

I don't know, if it's between calling the Ghost Busters, or getting slimed by L Ron Paul, I'll go with the Ghost Busters. Anyone got Egon's number?

[Oli]

Oh it's much bigger than you think, Trish. It goes way beyond a government conspiracy. By criss-crossing contrails, a focal aperture is created, defeating the albedo & allowing cosmic rays to libidinally mingle with the heavy metals in the ground. This causes a temporal distortion that lets demons pass through the portal. The conspiracy is intergalactic & interdimentional, as well as dementianal. THEY're using airplanes to disrupt the astral planes! WE'RE DOOMED!! Our only salvation is to convert to the teachings of the prophet L Ron Paul, as interpreted by Alex the baptist, return to our roots as worshipers of the heavy metals, & embrace luddism retroactively.

BEST POST EVER!!!

[hippifried]

Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm here all week.

[El Nino]

Hahaha... u guys are more fun than a barrel of monkeys.


News in Denmark, but not news in the USA...

http://tyrannyalert.com/800.html

[trish]

Come on El Nino, stop stalling...take up the challenge. In your own words, what is the chemtrail conspiracy? What its aim? How does it work? You can give links to reference your assertions, but I want to hear YOU explain something for once.

[Rogers]

Come on El Nino, stop stalling...take up the challenge. In your own words, what is the chemtrail conspiracy? What its aim? How does it work? You can give links to reference your assertions, but I want to hear YOU explain something for once.

[Rogers]

HELLOOOOOOOOOO?!?!?!

LMAO... "There is no phone ringing, damn it!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-MosmUseSY

[thx1138]

why is barium falling out of the sky? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRFbOe38Y1U&feature=PlayList&p=13300F7CE0A3B409&index=11 Crop dusting is real. Cloud seeding is real. Chem trails are just one additional step in the same direction.

[Rogers]

why is barium falling out of the sky? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRFbOe38Y1U&feature=PlayList&p=13300F7CE0A3B409&index=11 Crop dusting is real. Cloud seeding is real. Chem trails are just one additional step in the same direction.

Barium...
Barium is a silvery-white metal that can be found in the environment, where it exists naturally. It occurs combined with other chemicals, such as sulfur, carbon or oxygen... Barium is surprisingly abundant in the Earth's crust, being the 14th most abundant element... Because of the extensive use of barium in the industries human activities add greatly to the release of barium in the environment. As a result barium concentrations in air, water and soil may be higher than naturally occurring concentrations on many locations. Barium enters the air during mining processes, refining processes, and during the production of barium compounds. It can also enter the air during coal and oil combustion.
http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-chart-elements/Ba-en.htm

Small-scale chemical evolution of aircraft exhaust species at cruising altitudes...
The chemical processes are strongly coupled to the turbulent dynamics of the hot jet which rapidly mixes with the surrounding atmospheric air...
The evolution of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur species is discussed in detail and related to observations... Main results concern the conversion efficiencies of primary into secondary exhaust products, the oxidation potential within young aircraft plumes to produce nitrous, nitric, and sulfuric acid, the sensitivity of these processes under variation of exit plane conditions, as well as the production of new aerosol particles.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3126515

The imune system declines naturally with time all on its own. Trying to illicit the same response with something as natural and wipespread as Barium would be just dumb and pointless.
"Throughout our lives, we have a very diverse population of T cells in our bodies. However, late in life this T cell population becomes less diverse, potentially resulting in a higher level of susceptibility to disease. We think we have found one of the key reasons behind this age-related susceptibility."
http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6606

The age of paranoia...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1078966/The-age-paranoia-Lonely-city-life-work-worries-leave-racked-irrational-fear.html

[thx1138]

Firstly Barium isn't all that innocuous. A least one compound is a prime ingredient in rat poison (rodenticide). If you don't believe that you welcome to ingest some as an experiment. I don't think that's something I'd want to consume. Secondly although there was barium mining in Arkansas it was, according to what I read, shut down in the late 70's. (Mine workers suffering from toxic effects?) Other than that, besides chemtrails, the only other possibiity is a super fund toxic site apparently not remediated. That raises the question of why? Don't they care about the health of their citizens? Apparently not. Lastly, and most interestingly, Rogers carefully avoids referencing the documented cases of US clandestine biological experiments on its citizens. If, in the past, the US government had no qualms about unleashing toxic biological agents on an unsuspecting segment of the population how can we trust them not to do more of the same in the present? We can't! A good example is bush with his 935 documented lies about Iraq. Governments simply can't be trusted to reveal the extant of their activities especially in the chemical/biological field. It's noteworthy programs of this type are always handed over to the military for implementation. The military has always exhibited a callous disregard for human life, understandable because their main job is to murder people. The "ok to break a few eggs to make an omelet" mentality. Great for the omelet eater but what about the eggs (us with increased incidences of lung disease, premature death). Enjoy the new video: http://www.foundingfather1776.com/

[hippifried]

Well I know the barium sweep scared the hell out of Jean Luc Picard in the episode "Starship Mine". I wonder how many interstellar cockroaches survived on board because he stopped the sweep early.

[thx1138]

experiments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VLNNwiKvlE Gee, who would have guessed.

[Rogers]

Firstly Barium isn't all that innocuous. A least one compound is a prime ingredient in rat poison (rodenticide). If you don't believe that you welcome to ingest some as an experiment. I don't think that's something I'd want to consume. Secondly although there was barium mining in Arkansas it was, according to what I read, shut down in the late 70's. (Mine workers suffering from toxic effects?) Other than that, besides chemtrails, the only other possibiity is a super fund toxic site apparently not remediated. That raises the question of why? Don't they care about the health of their citizens? Apparently not. Lastly, and most interestingly, Rogers carefully avoids referencing the documented cases of US clandestine biological experiments on its citizens. If, in the past, the US government had no qualms about unleashing toxic biological agents on an unsuspecting segment of the population how can we trust them not to do more of the same in the present? We can't! A good example is bush with his 935 documented lies about Iraq. Governments simply can't be trusted to reveal the extant of their activities especially in the chemical/biological field. It's noteworthy programs of this type are always handed over to the military for implementation. The military has always exhibited a callous disregard for human life, understandable because their main job is to murder people. The "ok to break a few eggs to make an omelet" mentality. Great for the omelet eater but what about the eggs (us with increased incidences of lung disease, premature death). Enjoy the new video: http://www.foundingfather1776.com/

Yes you did finally reply... after some prodding. You also said you weren't worried about thousands of people deliberately trying to harm you. Yet here you are posting AGAIN about the "Chemtrail Conspiracy". Just how many people do you think the government would need to do what you're suggesting what with all the planes and the amount of chemical that would be needed. Just one? :lol: Again this is further evidence that you have some kind of cognitive problem.

As posted above, barium is one of the most naturally occuring and widespread elements on the face of the planet. It is also released into the atmosphere when oil is burned. Fraid the government can't really ban something like that. Using the E.P.A. however, it has set tough limits on AND banned thousands of both man-made and natural chemicals including barium.

Finally, just because the government has done bad things in the past it's no proof that they're doing so now. This line of argument is called a straw man, which again suggests you lack a basic grasp of logic. Fraid you and your fellow conspiracy theorists are going to have to come up with a much more unique and more potent chemical to grab my attention, a chemical that shouldn't really be found in the exhaust fumes of planes.

Really sorry, but it's back to the drawing board for you, thx1138. Oops, I meant YouTube. LMAO...
""i put 2 clean bowls there specifically because i wanted to catch what was falling. i don’t recall exactly when i put the bowls there, but they were there for about a month before i contacted ksla. the goo that i caught was full of barium. have a cool day!""

"So the EPA limit is 2 ppm (2000 µg/L), and the tests actually found 0.0688 ppm (68.8 µg/L), just 3.4% of the allowable limit."
http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/

[Rogers]

Well I know the barium sweep scared the hell out of Jean Luc Picard in the episode "Starship Mine". I wonder how many interstellar cockroaches survived on board because he stopped the sweep early.

[hippifried]

I can get behind that.
Everything's a conspiracy. But conspiracies can be defeated.
We thwarted Mr Big's plot to destroy America by sending robotic giant mice to eat everybody's TV antennae. It was easy. We just shifted everybody to cable.

[thx1138]

I thought we were talking about unnaturally, dangerously high levels of barium? Not just the average dust particles blowing around unless dropped out of a jet. You're saying we CAN trust government. I say we CAN'T unless all governmental activites became transparent. There are too many black ops still going on. While Obama has moved in the direction of curbing some of bush's abuses of power it's not enough. Just the fact Obama supports spying on Americans' phone and e-mail messages shows there is still plenty going on behind the scenes.

[thx1138]

Lets get one thing straight I answer when I feel like it. I don't do it on command, especially yours. You must either be a member of the British royal family, suffering from a Napoleonic complex or simply arrogant. Which is it?

[thx1138]

Keep this in mind: It's not illegal or a conspiratorial when it's authorized by the president or by someone he has delegated the authority to decide.

[thx1138]

Re bad air: because I live near an airport when the wind is blowing in my direction I cover my mouth and nose with a handkerchief until I get on a bus. I don't know how effective that is in keeping carcinogens out of my lungs but it's better than nothing. Jet fuel is very dangerous. BTW: Keep it up with the funny photos. I've got a few I'm itching to use.

[thx1138]

Especially the section on barium atoms. :D :D :D
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/patents.html

[trish]

Especially the section on barium atoms. :D :D :D
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/patents.htmlSo NASA was searching for methods to “dye” the velocity field of the upper atmosphere; nothing surprising there. Just as hydrologists drop “dyes” into streams to map the current, atmospheric scientists are seeking techniques to make visible the currents in the upper atmosphere. Something highly reflective would be easy to pick up from the cameras in geostationary orbit 22 thousand miles away. It seems that in 1969 NASA was toying with the notion of using barium to create reflective ionization trails high in the atmosphere, so that they could watch how the winds in the upper atmosphere deformed those trails. Your research doesn’t make it clear whether they still consider it the optimal solution. Barium is spilled into the lower atmosphere whenever someone burns oil or gasoline. Thousands of gallons of barium solutions are used in oil drilling. If I understand correctly, it’s the heavy mud that’s forced into the wells to sometimes displace and force up the oil. It’s used to give color to fireworks. Soluble compounds of barium are toxic. Insoluble ones are not. If you ever got a stomach or an intestinal X-ray you drank barium for its property of X-ray opacity. There is nothing to fear here. Barium occurs in various naturally occurring minerals. A particularly common and yet beautiful crystalline form is known among rock hounds as barite. The atmosphere weighs more than a quadrillion metric tons. A few grams of barium, in non-toxic form, released in the upper atmosphere may take days to find its way to the Earth’s surface and it will be scattered by the criss-cross of winds and changing pressure gradients at every level of its chaotic descent. Let’s be generous and say instead of a few grams, it’s a metric ton. What’s a metric ton divided by over a quadrillion metric tons?

[thx1138]

Look at this again. The environmental guy said long term exposure to the unusual high barium levels in the sample can lead to respiratory problems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRFbOe38Y1U&feature=PlayList&p=13300F7CE0A3B409&index=11

[thx1138]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwvUhalx-lU&feature=related It's not just barium. It's aluminum chaf. wonder what these tiny particles do to your lungs. (particulate matter) As usual the military refused to participate in the test. The principle of "Well, if you're not doing anything criminal you shouldn't fear being investigated." should apply to them as well as to those who complain about governmental spying on their phone/e-mail traffic.

[hippifried]

So... The sky really is falling?

[thx1138]

Maybe they should be spraying lithium instead of barium and aluminum : http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2009/04/lithium_levels_in_dr.html

[Rogers]

Look at this again. The environmental guy said long term exposure to the unusual high barium levels in the sample can lead to respiratory problems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRFbOe38Y1U&feature=PlayList&p=13300F7CE0A3B409&index=11

I already covered this above, thx1138. Can't you read? The journalist doesn't know basic science and misunderstood the results.

"This video is very popular right now. Claiming that water was analyzed and found to have barium in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okB-489l6MI "

"That’s quite straightforward right? Barium found at 68.8 µg/L. That’s 68.8 parts per billion. Now listen to the audio at that precise point (also transcribed on the KSLA web site):
“The results: a high level of barium, 6.8 parts per million (ppm), more than three times the toxic level set by the EPA”.
Immediately you can see something is wrong here. it’s 68.8, not 6.8, and it’s not parts per million, it’s parts per billion. So it’s actually 0.0688 parts per million.
And what of “three times the toxic level set by the EPA”? They are referring to the EPA Limits, as quoted by the CDC:
“The EPA has set a limit of 2.0 milligrams of barium per liter of drinking water (2.0 mg/L), which is the same as 2 ppm [parts per million].”
So the EPA limit is 2 ppm (2000 µg/L), and the tests actually found 0.0688 ppm (68.8 µg/L), just 3.4% of the allowable limit.
That limit’s not really a “toxic level” either. There’s no evidence that it would be toxic even at that level (which, remember, is 29 times higher than what was actually found). The world health organization has set a drinking water level of 7 ppm after doing studies into the health effects of barium."
http://contrailscience.com/barium-chemtrails/

[Rogers]

Maybe they should be spraying lithium instead of barium and aluminum : http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2009/04/lithium_levels_in_dr.html

Lithium is used in the treament of bipolar disorder, which you said you suspected you have...

When you're in a hole, thx1138, the best advice is ALWAYS to stop digging.

[thx1138]

Barium nozzles have been produced, patented and have been in use for a long time. (chem trails - whose existance was to be proved or disproved)

[thx1138]

Whatever they are spraying doesn't stay up there. It comes down to be breathed in (particulate matter) by unsuspecting Americans . Not good for the lungs no matter what it's made of.

[trish]

Whatever they are spraying doesn't stay up there. It comes down to be breathed in (particulate matter) by unsuspecting Americans . Not good for the lungs no matter what it's made of.Whatever? No matter what? There's simply nothing that isn't dangerous to breathe? I'm beginning to think that whatever you say is stupid. Maybe that's why you usually say nothing and just spam us with idiotic links.

[El Nino]

It's unconstitutional

[trish]

Could you any less specific? What's unconstitutional? After you clarify that detail, can you cite the defining case law?

[thx1138]

"Doesn't matter what you breath in" that shows YOU as stupid (actually deceptive) . If it didn't matter why is there an EPA with stringent regulations on air quality? Google "air quality regulations" plenty of articles. :>)

[thx1138]

I amended above. Yes, everything is potentially dangerous dependant on the quantity. The reason the EPA allows some is because it's too expensive to remove ALL of it. That doesn't negate its long term health effects though. At any rate the existance of chemtrails is proven to my satifaction unless someone can debunk the nozzle patent article. Or that NASA (actually the US military) simply stored them in a warehouse unused for decades.

[thx1138]

more links:
http://www.euro.who.int/document/mediacentre/fs0405e.pdf particulate matter and respiratorial illness. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/08/us_dod_black_budget/ huge sums spent on US military black ops.

[trish]

There's a mixture of gases known as "air". It consists of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and less than 1% percent argon and carbon dioxide. Try not to breath to much of it, because according to thx, "everything is potentially dangerous dependant on the quantity." Perhaps you're thinking of body inflation :arrow: :lol:

[thx1138]

Er, trish; particulate matter is not a gas. Although some gases are unhealthy too. But that's not what the injecting into the atmosphere. (I hope)

[chefmike]

Could you any less specific? What's unconstitutional? After you clarify that detail, can you cite the defining case law?

Don't hold your breath, trish. That would require actual facts, something El Ninny and his addle-brained ilk are loathe to be bothered with...

[trish]

It's a fun time of the year to revisit this issue of barium laced chem trails in our atmosphere. Of course some forms of barium as absolutely safe: for example, the barium compound you drink before an abdominal X-ray. But some are highly toxic, such as barium dichloride. This interesting little salt burns with a bright green flame; indeed it's precisely the ingredient that's used to make fireworks burn green in the sky. It's not just big government that's out to poison you with clouds of barium :) but also our municipal governments, churches, local businesses and anyone else who sponsers 4th of July fireworks displays...not to mention the many private producers of fireworks who just don't give a damn. That's capitalism for you :)

[The Hierophant]

there is one group of people who are destined to usually be wrong; Those who think they know something when there either isn't enough evidence to come to a conclusion, or when they just don't feel like looking at the evidence available.

Galileo Galilei invited his critics to just look through his telescope if they wished to see what he was talking about. They refused, on moral grounds, and continued to persecute him.

I can use the example of UFOs. There are two opposing sides of people who think they "know" what UFOs are. The proponents "know" the UFOs are interplanetary spacecraft, while the debunkers "know" that all the reports are just misidentifications, or hoaxes.

They are both just as wrong, obviously. UFOs certainly "exist." It is beyond question. People see them every day, there are tens of thousands of photos and videos, and radar confirmations, and government files... Much of which cannot be explained. But thus far, the (publicly accessible) evidence is not enough to draw any definite conclusion.

[trish]

In the nineteenth century there was a great deal of contention about the existence of fairies. There were those who gave credence to every report, every field drawing and every photograph. There were those who could be counted on to debunk the reports, the drawings and the photos. Today it’s hard to believe there was ever a controversy over the existence of fairies. What has changed? Was the evidence available in the 19th century inadequate to decide the issue? If so, who published the knockdown evidence against fairies, and in what journal? Or is it rather the case that the mind of the modern romantic has changed? Now on midsummer nights his flights of fancy turn to aliens, leaving fairies and fairy magic to gather the dust of dated dreams.

[The Hierophant]

First of all, I said UFOs, not aliens. The fact that the two are interchangeable in your mind is a demonstration of your bias.

Furthermore, UFOs date back to biblical times (and before), leaving your example quite faulty.

[trish]

The Bible does not provide evidence that people thought unidentified sky objects were alien craft. My example stands: UFO’s as alien craft is a newer fancy than fairies. As people become more sophisticated their fairytales follow suit. People no longer believe in fairies, but not because new evidence was uncovered. The old evidence against their existence was always sufficient. Fairies are just too quaint for the modern romantic, no matter how gullible.

Are there unidentified flying objects? No one disputes that. Are they alien craft? Are they angels? Are they demons? Are they fairies? Are they reflections, balloons or aircraft? Each explanation has to be examined individually, and no explanation can be expected to apply to all sightings. However, aliens, troglodytes from the center of the Earth, angels, demons and fairies can safely be eliminated in all sightings.

Progress can only be made either by proposing a viable explanation for a sighting, or a group of sighting or by criticizing a proposed hypothesis. To just claim there are unidentified flying objects and there’s something to them, is an empty claim. So what’s your hypothesis?

[hippifried]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmeV_OyiHFY&feature=related

[The Hierophant]

You have found a way to make a list of what can be eliminated? How did you accomplish that?

While I certainly agree that one all-encompassing explanation cannot be applied to all sightings, I know that I can't make a list of definite exclusions.

Demons? Abductions sound exactly like Incubus/Succubus stories, complete with the sexual angle.

Aliens? The only "evidence" against is the distance involved and the "speed limit." But just because our current science can't figure out how one would travel at or faster than the speed of light, doesn't mean it's impossible. In fact, Quantum Entanglement has shown that information seems to travel instantaneously. No speed limits involved.

At any rate, I don't need a hypothesis because I am a skeptic. Not to mention, any hypothesis that I choose to entertain may change tomorrow, based on new information that my brain receives, rethinking old information, or just the way in which I choose to view the world that particular day.

Progress is made by thinking, not by inventing dogmatic theories. Once you come up with your hypothesis, and get what you consider to be evidence supporting what you think, you start to believe something, and you discontinue thinking about it. It's a dead end - for you at least. Progress happens when some other person comes along, decides that you're wrong and starts thinking about it again.

That's the whole point of not being a true believer or disbeliever which was the exact point of my first post in this thread. That each side is equally, but oppositely, mistaken.

But in the interest of fun, I'll come up with what I have decided that "all" UFOs "are" ...even though I might change my mind tomorrow.

Time Travelers.

Taking into consideration that the Earth is moving through space and isn't always at a fixed point, if you were to somehow build a stationary time machine and go 1000 years into the past, you would wind up in space, since the Earth isn't stationary. It's somewhere else in space.

To compensate for this, you would need to build a space-faring vehicle which is also a time machine, travel into space, then go back 1000 years, and then locate Earth. (I'm sure calculations would be made concerning the general location before you departed.)

Tomorrow I think I'll decide that they are interdimensional "bleed-over," like when you are tuned to a radio station, and a different station bleeds through for a second.

It's useful to bear in mind that the UFOs as solid, tangible, interplanetary vehicles was almost certainly popularized by the US Air Force and Hollywood. During the late 1800's / early 1900's when people were seeing giant "airships", no one thought of aliens. In WWII, each side saw the "Foo Fighters" as a super-secret new weapon developed by the enemy. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was Charles Fort, sometime in the 1930's who first theorized that the strange things seen in the sky might be "Martians." He was never serious, by the way.

It wasn't until a few years after WWII, though, that the general public started viewing this stuff as "aliens." Which happened to be the position of the Air Force at the time, according to documents released under the FOIA. Who the hell knows what their position is today.

[trish]

Of course there is no complete list of all possible explanations of UFO sightings; it’s difficult enough trying to make a list of all the correct explanations. On this we agree. We disagree (I think) on what constitutes progress in our understanding. Progress in an investigation depends on putting forward testable hypotheses and criticizing them. It’s not progress to whimsically believe one thing one day and another thing the next day.

Personally, I don’t see the point in believing (truly or otherwise) a hypothesis for which there is absolutely no evidence. For this reason I don’t believe UFO’s are time travelers. What would constitute evidence that a UFO sighting was of a time traveler? Have we detected exotic matter in the proximity of any of these sightings? Do clocks indicate proximal time dilation? It’s entirely appropriate to discard an extraordinary hypothesis for which there is no evidence. As an aside, note that you can discard a hypothesis but you cannot discard it dogmatically. The phrase just doesn’t make a lot of sense. You can discard a hypothesis, but you can’t be a true discarder. To discard a hypothesis simply means you intend to pass it over for a better one.

Nor do I see the point in believing in an empty hypothesis. An empty hypothesis has no potential use. For this reason I find it pointless to believe that some UFO sightings are examples of inter-dimensional “bleed-over.” Unless you can have at your fingertips reasonably precise definitions of the jargon used in this hypothesis, it’s just meaningless mumbo jumbo. It’s not really a hypothesis. An appropriate response is to discard the suggestion. Another response could be to attempt to define the terms oneself in a meaningful way and put forth the proposition as your own. Unfortunately, if your meaningful interpretation is found to be true, the originator of the empty version will claim he was right all along.

I’m not saying you have to believe or disbelieve anything, let alone believe truly or disbelieve dogmatically. What does it mean to believe a proposition anyway? The important thing is not belief but use. Do you have a use for the hypothesis that UFO’s are piloted by time travelers? You don’t have to be able to build a bridge with the hypothesis, but does the hypothesis have consequences that allow you make new and as yet unobserved predictions that will at least empirically distinguish the time-traveler hypothesis from the alien pilot hypothesis?

I know you don’t really believe UFOs are piloted by time-travelers. So why pretend to believe, if only for a day? Just discard the hypothesis until you find you really need it.

[The Hierophant]

I don't pretend to believe, I entertain the possibility. Then I decide how, why, and what evidence there is to support it, if any.

But I really have to disagree with you about progress in human understanding. Every single thought, every word written, everything, from the inane to the insane, leads to other thoughts, and it is all relevant, insofar as it inspires others in some way, and so on.

I mean, some racist's hate speech may inspire someone to eventually become a civil rights leader. In the same way that I might come up with some possibility, which I then discard, but someone else likes the idea and they go out and prove that I had the right idea. I would just rather think about things; Leave the leg work to someone else. :D

In my philosophy, everything is permitted.

Robert Anton Wilson used a sort of scale of belief for things like this. I don't know what he actually called it, but you get the idea, a 1 - 10 type of thing. His interpretations were subject to change, as well, but to bring it back to the original topic, I'll give my current positions using the scale.

Obama's Birth Certificate: I give this more than zero, but less than one, since I wasn't there when he was born. So it's somewhere in between, but closer to zero. It's just about certain that Obama was born in the USA. Interestingly enough, it was actually John McCain who wasn't born in the US... sort of. He was born on a military base, in Panama I believe. That of course has no bearing on the fact that he is still a natural citizen. Military bases count as the US.

Chemtrails: I give this around a 3. Secret experimentation on US citizens has without question occurred in the past. See the Congressional MK ULTRA hearings. Also, weather modification is nothing new, and so-called "Weather Warfare" is a concern of many nations. Problem is, there is no good evidence showing anything significant, but there were certainly some weird "contrails" seen for a period of a few years. I've seen them myself, and I can safely say they weren't like "normal" contrails. Regardless, I still give it a 3 because there could be any number of reasons for what I personally observed. It could be some super-secret plane that leaves atypical, but totally harmless contrails.

9/11: This one is tough because there are about a million different conspiracies going around. Some related, some totally contradictory to each other. If I was to rate whether or not the entire "official" story of 9/11 is filled with lies, I'd give it above 9. Most of that shit makes no sense whatsoever. But as far as specifics, most of it would fall well below 5; some of it close to zero. There are a few things, like the true identities of the hijackers for example, that are up there in the above 9 range.

[hippifried]

This is all Brahma's dream. If somebody wakes the sleeping God, we all go 'poof'.

[trish]

Yeah, we need to be open to that possibility, hippiefried.
:wink:



To be open to a possibility means you can’t be certain it isn’t true. As a skeptic myself, I’d rather not get bogged down in the metaphysical issues of truth and certainty. It’s much easier to admit some hypotheses are helpful and you wind up using them. Others are not so helpful and you don’t use them. Of course some hypotheses are helpful for their contents (e.g. the theory of relativity) and others are helpful for attracting attention at parties or in chat rooms (e.g. UFO’s are manifested when other dimensions bleed through into ours).

[The Hierophant]

Of course some hypotheses are helpful for their contents (e.g. the theory of relativity) and others are helpful for attracting attention at parties or in chat rooms (e.g. UFO’s are manifested when other dimensions bleed through into ours).

That's of course denying psychology and all of the social sciences.

[trish]

What? You think psychology and the social sciences aren't useful and don't put forward testable hypotheses?

[The Hierophant]

Obviously not, which is why I quoted you and said your statement was denying the validity of social sciences.

[trish]

So pschology and the social sciences belong to the first category. That doesn't preclude them from being entertaining, It only excludes them from the "others" category whose members aren't useful for their content but are useful for attracting the attention of crowds.

[The Hierophant]

I didn't know everything fit into such neat little boxes.

[trish]

Snide remarks are not refutations. It was you who assumed that if psychology was useful for it content it couldn't be useful for entertainment at parties; i.e. you're the one treating adjectives as if they were boxes with non-overlapping contents.

[The Hierophant]

It was you who assumed that if psychology was useful for it content it couldn't be useful for entertainment at parties; i.e. you're the one treating adjectives as if they were boxes with non-overlapping contents.

??? What?

Um, no, sorry. You implied that they were separate categories...


some hypotheses are helpful for their contents (e.g. the theory of relativity) and others are helpful for attracting attention at parties or in chat rooms (e.g. UFO’s are manifested when other dimensions bleed through into ours)

...which is why I brought up the point of social sciences to begin with. To point out the fact that drawing lines in the sand is invalid, considering that Psychology is one valid field of study for some aspects of UFOs. Even though you clearly said that the matter was not useful for it's "contents."

And please don't tell me that just because you said it was "useful for attracting attention at parties" or whatever nonsense, that you didn't mean it also couldn't be useful for it's contents. Otherwise, why did you make the distinction at all?

[trish]

Of what use does a psychologist or a sociologist have for the content of the theory that UFO's are piloted by time-travelers? Certainly their interest would be in the psychological disposition of the believer, the metaphorical aspects of the belief and the sociological or psychological ramifications of such a belief etc. But they would have no use for the actual hypotheses.

[The Hierophant]

Oh ok, you were only referring to my (non-serious) example of dimensional "bleed-though"? Even that can have applications in quantum physics, specifically the string theory idea of "branes" and dimensions bumping into each other.

So is the distinction you are making is that the only usefulness can be in hard sciences? Things that can be tested in a laboratory, produce repeatable experiments, or can be calculated and those calculations can be used to predict other things.

[trish]

I did point out that "inter dimensional bleeding" would have to be interpreted in a meaningful way to be useful. Are you now suggesting there's evidence that UFO's are a manifestation of string theory?

The so called soft sciences also produce testable hypotheses, make predictions and propose repeatable experiments. But those sorts of rarified uses aren't the only applications that count for the usefulness of the content of a theory. There are practical uses of psychology and sociology as well as of the "hard" sciences.

The distinction in use that I'm making is: using the contents of a hypothesis;( I.e. integrating what it says into your working testable theory) as opposed to treating it as a meta-proposition, E.g. as when a sociologist investigates the sociological consequences of belief in the proposition.

[hippifried]

Ah yes, string theory. The latest mathematical "yarn".

Maybe we can explain all this with voodoo zombies. Look at Stephen Hawking.

[techi]

I actually bought in to a conspiracy theory a couple years ago.

The conspiracy theory was that Saddam Hussein was conspiring to hide WMD's from UN weapon's inspectors in Iraq. Chenney, Rumsfeld and mainstream media had sold me on the conspiracy, I mean, why would those guys conspire to take the country to war on a lie? Silly me.

Of course, back then I'd have been considered a crazy conspiracy theorist if I had accused Chenney and Rumsfeld of conspiring to take the country to war. Luckily I bought into the approved conspiracy thus avoiding any accusations of being a crazy conspiracy theororist.

[Rogers]

I know you don’t really believe UFOs are piloted by time-travelers. So why pretend to believe, if only for a day? Just discard the hypothesis until you find you really need it.

But the invitation to marvel created by the lack of understanding is a large part of the joy of science, trish. :)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4398747992022736462

The Soviets took U.F.O.s' very seriously. From their numerous investigations most sightings could be explained by secret military operations and atmospheric phenomena. Most anyway.
http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/features/soviet_ufo_secrets_revealed.php

[hippifried]

But both the official CIA ouija board & the Whitehouse magic eightball said he wanted WMDs & thought about it a lot. Now he's dead. Wasn't that worth a few hundred thousand lives? Most of them weren't Americans anyway, so... ...& the money is economic stimulous.

...uuuh, war good, huh huh huuuuh...

When the government does it, it's not a conspiracy. A conspiracy is when those/them plot to do something. When the government does it, it's strategic misdirection. For our own good of course.

[Rogers]

I actually bought in to a conspiracy theory a couple years ago.

The conspiracy theory was that Saddam Hussein was conspiring to hide WMD's from UN weapon's inspectors in Iraq. Chenney, Rumsfeld and mainstream media had sold me on the conspiracy, I mean, why would those guys conspire to take the country to war on a lie? Silly me.

I never bought that conspiracy theory, techi, but on the whole I like the way you think. :wink: I never trusted the bastards from day one. Looking closely at this one though. :shrug
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4321246984410348041&q=source%3A001669526707155799726&hl=en

[trish]

But the invitation to marvel created by the lack of understanding is a large part of the joy of science, trish. Smile

That, Rogers, I can understand. And I do marvel and of course question. Discarding some hypotheses and tentatively adopting others, even resurrecting and repairing old ones is all apart of the fun.

I have to agree with hippiefried and Rogers on the Iraqi WMD's. It wasn't difficult to see right through that bit of expensive misdirection from the very beginning.

[The Hierophant]

I did point out that "inter dimensional bleeding" would have to be interpreted in a meaningful way to be useful. Are you now suggesting there's evidence that UFO's are a manifestation of string theory?

When did I ever say there was evidence?



The distinction in use that I'm making is: using the contents of a hypothesis;( I.e. integrating what it says into your working testable theory) as opposed to treating it as a meta-proposition, E.g. as when a sociologist investigates the sociological consequences of belief in the proposition.

That's not always how science works. (1.Come up with hypothesis 2.Go look for supporting evidence) In fact, that method can lead to dishonesty.

I would say that the best thing to do with UFOs is to collect the data, then look for meaning. And while that's going on, you are free to come up with any idea you please, as long as you don't stick to it dogmatically.

My original point it bringing up UFOs, was comparing both popular sides (UFOs are interplanetary craft vs. UFOs are all bullshit) as fundamentalist and dogmatic. And that can be applied to any "fringe" topic, like Chemtrails, 9/11, etc.

[trish]

You asked what distinction I was making in my post on page 9. It was not a distinction between hard and soft sciences as you seemed to suggest. It was the distinction between using a hypothesis as a hypothesis and using it for other purposes. The quote "The distinction in use..." is merely my reply to your question; it is not a description of how science works. I agree entirely with your suggestion on how to investigate the UFO phenomenon. But the point in coming up with ideas is to eventually be able to sort through them discarding the ones that are not credible and testing and developing the ones that are. After all, what does not being dogmatic entail, if not a willingness to drop some ideas for better ones?

I would think this applies to all investigations, not just "finge" issues.

[The Hierophant]

After all, what does not being dogmatic entail, if not a willingness to drop some ideas for better ones?

Very true, I just wish more people actually thought like that. In science, UFOs and anything else, you usually have to wait for the "old guard" to die with their ideas before new people come along with new ideas. I suppose that stems from some people not wanting to admit they may have been wrong... or just that they are invested in things being a certain way.

I mean, as far back as the 60's and 70's you had people like John Keel, Ivan Sanderson, Jacques Vallee, etc. talking about UFOs in other terms than solid, nuts & bolts, interplanetary craft, yet in 2009 there are still the old white haired guys at MUFON with not only an unwillingness to look at it in any other way, but these people specifically disregard anything that seems too strange. That's certainly a form of dishonesty, and ironically, it's what they have always accused mainstream science of doing.



I would think this applies to all investigations, not just "fringe" issues.

Of course, but more so with fringe topics due to the fact that good evidence is usually hard to come by, coupled with most people not taking the subjects seriously.

[arnie666]

I've mentioned before about my theory about some of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists being mentally traumatised individuals who never got over the very real situation of America being subject to a terrorist attack. I believe the threat of this occuring again at some point drives them into further delusion.

These people do not need ridcule but the services of a psychiatrist.

[El Nino]

I've mentioned before about my theory about some of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists being mentally traumatised individuals who never got over the very real situation of America being subject to a terrorist attack. I believe the threat of this occuring again at some point drives them into further delusion.

These people do not need ridcule but the services of a psychiatrist.

Quite the contrary. Most "truthers" are led to there formulated opinions after encountering myriad of evidences suggesting something much greater than the government's official conspiracy theory. In most cases, it's not based in group ideology; nor does their research & viewpoints constitute a need for a trip to a psychiatrist...

[El Nino]

I actually bought in to a conspiracy theory a couple years ago.

The conspiracy theory was that Saddam Hussein was conspiring to hide WMD's from UN weapon's inspectors in Iraq. Chenney, Rumsfeld and mainstream media had sold me on the conspiracy, I mean, why would those guys conspire to take the country to war on a lie? Silly me.

Of course, back then I'd have been considered a crazy conspiracy theorist if I had accused Chenney and Rumsfeld of conspiring to take the country to war. Luckily I bought into the approved conspiracy thus avoiding any accusations of being a crazy conspiracy theororist.

Haha, nice wording. Great points!

[chefmike]

I actually bought in to a conspiracy theory a couple years ago.

The conspiracy theory was that Saddam Hussein was conspiring to hide WMD's from UN weapon's inspectors in Iraq. Chenney, Rumsfeld and mainstream media had sold me on the conspiracy, I mean, why would those guys conspire to take the country to war on a lie? Silly me.

Of course, back then I'd have been considered a crazy conspiracy theorist if I had accused Chenney and Rumsfeld of conspiring to take the country to war. Luckily I bought into the approved conspiracy thus avoiding any accusations of being a crazy conspiracy theororist.

Haha, nice wording. Great points!

Nice wording indeed! And a ridiculous analogy to boot! Perhaps you've discovered a fellow traveler, pilgrim! Although he's going to have to work a little harder before he proves himself to be as gullible as the typical Alex Jones minion(sucker) like yourself, isn't he? Maybe you should see what he thinks of the Bohemian Grove cabal to further check his credentials.... :lol:

[El Nino]

Chef, it is clear that your mental capacity registers somewhere in the sub-average category; even for a tranny political forum. Ideology is a brain disease.

[The Hierophant]

See, this is what I was getting at earlier... just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are crazy or stupid, which is what both you guys seem to be implying.

[trish]

You're not crazy and you're not stupid. If you disagree with me, then you're crazy or stupid or both...at least in your own estimation.

[techi]

Nice wording indeed! And a ridiculous analogy to boot! Perhaps you've discovered a fellow traveler, pilgrim! Although he's going to have to work a little harder before he proves himself to be as gullible as the typical Alex Jones minion(sucker) like yourself, isn't he? Maybe you should see what he thinks of the Bohemian Grove cabal to further check his credentials.... :lol:

Oooo! Bohemian Grove! That sounds so mysterious. We should have a tranny Bohemian Grove theme party complete with Bat Gods and virign sacrificies. Come dressed as your favorite politician or priestess of Delphi.

But seriously, the point of my post was that conspiracy theory isn't pure crazy talk. Conspiracies really do take place. Yet pretty much any significant questioning of mainstream information and authority gets labeled as conspiracy theory and thus deemed "crazy talk". But if you don't question the information that you recieve then you are brain dead.

As for my credentials, here goes! lol

JFK was not killed by Oswald. I believe that the facts currently available lead to the conclusion that there was both a conspiracy to kill JFK and to cover it up. Further, it's clear to me that JFK was killed by elements of our own establishment after having pissed them off sufficiently. The single biggest things he did to piss them off was probably his intent to pull out of Vietnam.

I find it disturbing that it's taken me over 20 years to run across the fact that the Hinckley family are friends and significant political donators to the Bush family. It's clear now that our media surpressed that information despite the fact that Bush's father was Vice President at the time of Reagan's shooting by John Hinckley. Conspiracy? I dunno.. but it stinks to all hell.

It's also disturbing that US media seems to have surpressed Prescot Bush's WWII activities. In 1942, after the war had already come to America, Prescot Bush had his corporation shut down by the trading with the enemy act. Yes, Grandpappy Bush was one of the Nazi's Wallstreet bankers and the dummy didn't shut down his operation when the war started.

I believe that that US mainstream media works in the interests of thier major corporate shareholders. It's crap simply because the bulk of it is owned/captured by a narrow set of interests. Is that a conspiracy? Not really, but it explains why everyone should quesiton the information they are getting from NYTimes, Washington Post, CNBC, FOX etc....

Chem trails? I know nothing about em other than the fact that some people seem to think they are somehow harmful.

UFO's? Never seen one

Bigfoot? lol

Police state? Yep, we got one. The Homeland Security bill is nutso overkill. We also jail a crazy high % of our population.

Skull&Bones? Yale power networking group. Elitist old boys club. Don't know much beyond that about em.

911? The congressional investigation of 911 was 99.9% about politicians covering thier own asses. It's incomplete and has holes in it a mile wide. Does that mean that there was a domestic conspiracy on 911? No, but it sure explains why so many people are taking it upon themselves to find the answers. People shouldn't be considered crazy for wanting detailed information related the biggest terrorist attack on America.

Wallstreet Bankers? Need to be investigated just like they were back in the 1930's... Pecora Commission.

The FED? Needs to be audited by Congress. Even former Fed Chairman Paul Volcker has said as much.

Goldman Sachs? Don't get me started!

[chefmike]

You're not crazy and you're not stupid. If you disagree with me, then you're crazy or stupid or both...at least in your own estimation.

Thanks, trish. Finally some clarity. :lol:

[chefmike]

Ideology is a brain disease.

Sure it is, Kaczynski. Get some new material already, schmuck.

[El Nino]

Arianna H.? Is that you?

[techi]

I actually bought in to a conspiracy theory a couple years ago.

The conspiracy theory was that Saddam Hussein was conspiring to hide WMD's from UN weapon's inspectors in Iraq. Chenney, Rumsfeld and mainstream media had sold me on the conspiracy, I mean, why would those guys conspire to take the country to war on a lie? Silly me.

I never bought that conspiracy theory, techi, but on the whole I like the way you think. :wink: I never trusted the bastards from day one. Looking closely at this one though. :shrug
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4321246984410348041&q=source%3A001669526707155799726&hl=en

Finally got around to watching that video you linked. I thought it was a decent rundown on the Anthrax mail attacks.

The guy who was supposedly the lone anthrax mailer... that story is unbelievable.

Smells like mossad working with a neocon cabal in our own government.

[notdrunk]

Finally got around to watching that video you linked. I thought it was a decent rundown on the Anthrax mail attacks.

The guy who was supposedly the lone anthrax mailer... that story is unbelievable.

Smells like mossad working with a neocon cabal in our own government.

Somehow the Mossad working with a "necon cabal" to spread Anthrax through the mail system is believable and the lone wolf theory is not? The fuck... :shock:

[El Nino]

The Bush administration started taking Cipro 2 weeks prior to the 911 attacks... go figure. They must have had their own personal magic psychic working for them or something ;)

[hippifried]

i don't know if he was alone or not, but it's obvious by the targets that the anthrax attack was done by a right wing nut. They never did catch anybody, did they?

[notdrunk]

i don't know if he was alone or not, but it's obvious by the targets that the anthrax attack was done by a right wing nut. They never did catch anybody, did they?

The Feds pinned the attacks on a doctor that worked at Fort Detrick. He killed himself a year ago. The Feds didn't say he did it for ideological reasons. Apparently, he helped with making a vaccine for anthrax. He had serious mental issues too. Before he killed himself, he was committed because his counselor learned that he wanted to kill his co-workers. The police found ammo and a bullet-proof vest in his home when they searched it. He offed himself by overdosing.

[techi]

Finally got around to watching that video you linked. I thought it was a decent rundown on the Anthrax mail attacks.

The guy who was supposedly the lone anthrax mailer... that story is unbelievable.

Smells like mossad working with a neocon cabal in our own government.

Somehow the Mossad working with a "necon cabal" to spread Anthrax through the mail system is believable and the lone wolf theory is not? The fuck... :shock:

Oh, I'm not sure that neocons and mossad did this. I'm just saying that the evidence points in that direction. As for Bruce Ivins... I'm 100% sure he wasn't some kind of lone wolf like the FBI says.

The FBI charged Bruce Ivins, a biologist working at the Fort Detrick lab. There's no question that the anthrax strain came from Fort Detrick but there's maybe 100 people that would have had access to the anthrax sample over the years. So what did the FBI have on Ivins?
- The FBI never came up with a real motive for Ivins
- The FBI didn't establish a solid tie connecting the mailings of the letters to Ivin
- The FBI didn't establish that Ivins had the technical know how to make weapons grade powdered anthrax. Ivins was a biologist that dealt with liquid anthrax, weaponizing powdered anthrax is an entirly different field of science and to my knowledge not something even done at Fort Detrick.
- The FBI never established where the anthrax was weaponized ( it wouldn't have been at Fort Detrick)

Honestly, why would anyone outside of government believe the FBI theory?

[Rogers]

i don't know if he was alone or not, but it's obvious by the targets that the anthrax attack was done by a right wing nut. They never did catch anybody, did they?

The Feds pinned the attacks on a doctor that worked at Fort Detrick. He killed himself a year ago. The Feds didn't say he did it for ideological reasons. Apparently, he helped with making a vaccine for anthrax. He had serious mental issues too. Before he killed himself, he was committed because his counselor learned that he wanted to kill his co-workers. The police found ammo and a bullet-proof vest in his home when they searched it. He offed himself by overdosing.

Yet, the F.B.I. seems to have no interest in Philip Zack:

Anthrax Missing From Army Lab
"Documents from the inquiry show that one unauthorized person who was observed entering the lab building at night was Langford's predecessor, Lt. Col. Philip Zack, who at the time no longer worked at Fort Detrick. A surveillance camera recorded Zack being let in at 8:40 p.m. on Jan. 23, 1992, apparently by Dr. Marian Rippy, a lab pathologist and close friend of Zack's, according to a report filed by a security guard."
http://www.ph.ucla.edu/EPI/bioter/anthraxmissingarmylab.html

Anthrax Articles From The Hartford Courant
http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/hcourant.html

While Media Spotlights One Anthrax Suspect, Another Is Too Hot to Touch
"Dr. Zack left Fort Detrick in December 1991 amid allegations of unprofessional conduct. The Jewish scientist and others were accused of harassing their co-worker, Dr. Ayaad Assaad, until the Egyptian-born American scientist quit, according to an article in Connecticut’s The Hartford Courant, the country’s oldest newspaper in continuous publication. Dr. Assaad sued the Army, claiming discrimination after Zack’s badgering.

Although Dr. Zack was let go, he returned frequently to visit friends, and used the Fort Detrick laboratories for “off-the-books” work after hours. After reports of missing biological specimens—including anthrax, Ebola and the simian AIDs virus—came to light, as well as reports of unauthorized research, a review of surveillance camera tapes recorded Dr. Zack entering the lab late on the night of Jan. 23, 1992, according to The Hartford Courant report. He was let in that night by Marian Rippy, a lab pathologist and close friend of Zack’s, although she now says she has no memory of the evening. She did say that Zack occasionally visited and that other friends let him in."

"The New York Times journalist reported that “Mr. Z” was caught with a girlfriend after hours in Fort Detrick. According to Kristof, “Mr. Z” talked about the importance of his field and his own status in it, and often used the B’nai B’rith attack as an example of how anthrax attacks might happen. He also “had a penchant for dropping Arab names” when he discussed the possibility of anthrax attacks."
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/sept-oct02/0209018.html

Fort Detrick's anthrax mystery
Who tried to frame Dr. Ayaad Assaad, a former biowarfare researcher at the Army lab? Was it the same person responsible for last fall's anthrax mail terrorism?
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/01/26/assaad/print.html

Death to America + DEATH TO ISRAEL!

[hippifried]

Nobody was ever charged with anything. It's still an open investigation. I can't buy into the idea of a govenment conspiracy because there's just too much incompetence to pull it off.

The FBI botched this from the outset by "Jewelling" Hatfill. Then everything went on hold while DOJ curled up like an armadillo in full CYA mode when Hatfill sued their ass. What a bunch of boobs.

So years later, they zero in on Ivins. Did he do it? The credibility of DOJ & the FBI is so tarnished that who knows? He does look plausible & fits the profile though. He had means, motive, & opportunity. He was another anti-abortion fruitcake. That explains the targets to a degree. He was working on a vaccine prior to the national panic. Big feather in his cap & large potential payoff right there. He worked with the initial investigation as an expert, making it easy to cover his tracks & misdirect. He had access to everything. He apparently had a myriad of mental problems. He could have been hatching this plan & stockpiling the shit for years. 9/11 gave him a perfect opportunity to have eyes looking elsewhere. Now he's dead, so nobody will ever know fo sure.

DOJ & the FBI lost their credibility, but Alex Jones & Lyndon LaRouche never had any. Who ya gonna believe? Personally, I think that whenever a bomb goes off in the US, the first place to look is the klan-nazis & the rabid anti-abortionists. Especially the rabid anti-abortionists. There's no shortage of American reactionary toons.

[El Nino]

Nobody was ever charged with anything. It's still an open investigation. I can't buy into the idea of a govenment conspiracy because there's just too much incompetence to pull it off

Hippi, when u say (or anybody for that matter) says, "government conspiracy" it immediately turns a lot of people off. It leads people to believe that the ENTIRE structure was involved. Well, this is never the case and it isn't how it works. Instead of saying "government conspiracy" it would be better to say "criminal elements withing the gov" or something similar. A select few with "special interests" is ALWAYS how it works. And the bottom line is, this Anthrax debaucle, 911, 7/7 bombings etc... did NOT transpire the way corporate media WANTS the public to think 'en masse'...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23694423-details/Inquiry%20into%207%207%20branded%20%27whitewash%27 %20by%20victims/article.do


http://fiddleferme.blogspot.com/2009/07/13-doctors-demand-inquest-into-dr-david.html

[techi]

So years later, they zero in on Ivins. Did he do it? The credibility of DOJ & the FBI is so tarnished that who knows? He does look plausible & fits the profile though. He had means, motive, & opportunity. He was another anti-abortion fruitcake. That explains the targets to a degree. He was working on a vaccine prior to the national panic. Big feather in his cap & large potential payoff right there. He worked with the initial investigation as an expert, making it easy to cover his tracks & misdirect. He had access to everything. He apparently had a myriad of mental problems. He could have been hatching this plan & stockpiling the shit for years. 9/11 gave him a perfect opportunity to have eyes looking elsewhere. Now he's dead, so nobody will ever know fo sure.

DOJ & the FBI lost their credibility, but Alex Jones & Lyndon LaRouche never had any. Who ya gonna believe?.

Hippi, I appreciate that you aren't really heavily defending the FBI's Ivin's case but I feel that you are giving a lot of aspects of the FBI's case a complete free ride. There's no evidence that Ivin's had the means to weaponize anthrax. By that I mean he didn't even posses the technical how-to knowledge let alone have the equipment. Could Ivin's have been involved with stealing the liquid anthrax culture? Sure... a lot of people could have done that including Ivins. But someone else had to weaponize it.

As for motive... the anti-abortion theory isn't impossible but it's incredibly weak. I mean, why not just send an anthrax letter to every single democrat(and a few republicans) in Congress? Why rant about America&Israel(not to mention praising allah & 911) in the anthrax letters if abortion is your issue? Why did the anthrax letters stop being sent when they did?

Also, why did the Bush administration start taking Cipro(effective against anthrax) a couple weeks before the attacks? We are supposed to believe that the Bush administration was full of bunglers that "never saw any of this coming". Taking Cipro when you are healthy is pretty extreme because it has adverse effects. Did the administration have advanced warning that there was a clear and present danger of anthrax attack? And if so, what was the source?

As for Alex Jones and Larouche, what about em? Hippi, why do you bring those people into the conversation?

[hippifried]

There's no evidence that Ivin's had the means to weaponize anthrax. By that I mean he didn't even posses the technical how-to knowledge let alone have the equipment. Could Ivin's have been involved with stealing the liquid anthrax culture? Sure... a lot of people could have done that including Ivins. But someone else had to weaponize it.Canard!
Anthrax naturally spreads in a dry state, through spores. It's a living thing. You don't need to create it in a lab. You just need a starter culture. Mix it with a powder substance & let it dry out. What weaponize? Anthrax has been all over the world for thousands of years without any electron microscopes. The spores dry out & will lie in the dust for decades waiting for something to come along & sniff them up.

Technical know-how? Ivins worked in the lab that produced the strain that was mailed. He had full clearance to come & go as he pleased. He was technical consultant to the FBI after the attacks. Got an award for it. When they went back & analyzed his work, he was framing his coworkers. His name was on 2 seperate patents for anthrax vaccine prior to Sept, 2001. He immunized himself before the attacks. One of his patents was used to get an $800,000,000 government contract. He was developing another one, & had complained about being restricted to animal testing. There's no reason in the world to think that he didn't know how to do this, or have the equipment available to him.


The anti-abortion insanity just gives explanation to the targets. I doubt if it was the sole motivation. Ivins was a conservative Catholic. Daschle & Leahy were democratic Congressional leaders & Catholic. Mix that with the attack on the "eastern establishment liberal media", & it all makes a kind of twisted sense. The object of terrorism isn't to kill everybody. It's to force a specific reaction. Ivins stood to gain money, prestige, & a ticket to tenured academe or a book deal.

[El Nino]

Hippi, you are incorrect regarding your assesment of Anthrax. The Weaponized versions of anthrax "Bacillus anthracis" are indeed genetically engineered in a molecular bio lab and the resulting product is two fold. 1) it is a far more virulent sub strain and 2) the individual bacterial cell body is far smaller than natural strains, that dwell in soils. This causes for a final product that can be aerosolized with relative ease. Do your homework

[techi]

Nobody was ever charged with anything. It's still an open investigation. I can't buy into the idea of a govenment conspiracy because there's just too much incompetence to pull it off

Hippi, when u say (or anybody for that matter) says, "government conspiracy" it immediately turns a lot of people off. It leads people to believe that the ENTIRE structure was involved. Well, this is never the case and it isn't how it works. Instead of saying "government conspiracy" it would be better to say "criminal elements withing the gov" or something similar. A select few with "special interests" is ALWAYS how it works. And the bottom line is, this Anthrax debaucle, 911, 7/7 bombings etc... did NOT transpire the way corporate media WANTS the public to think 'en masse'...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23694423-details/Inquiry%20into%207%207%20branded%20%27whitewash%27 %20by%20victims/article.do


http://fiddleferme.blogspot.com/2009/07/13-doctors-demand-inquest-into-dr-david.html

Another reason that the word "conspiracy" turns people off is the long stream of honey pots that intelligence services have employed over the years to control information/disinformation.

The way a honey pot works is that a source comes forward with seemingly credible evidence on a topic. They convince thier intended targets enough that the targets lend thier credibility to the information. Once that credibility has been lent, the honeypot proceeds to destroy both his own credibility and that of anyone hooked into buying into the honey pots story. He'll start talking crazy... or telling a string of lies.

One of the reasons that people disappove of Alex Jones is that his show has absolutely no quality control. Alex is like a big bear that just can't resist dipping his paws into every honeypot in sight. He'll get a source that talks about the CFR, Bilderberg etc... says that he has inside information. Once people buy in and are on the hook the source will proceed to expose the fact that lead Bilderbergers are actually alien reptiles...lol. At that point people say "ok this is pure crazy talk" and lose interest in the original topic entirely.

On a related note, I'm starting to think that Michael Scheuer is a honey pot aimed at discrediting critics of US foreign policy. Scheuer is the CIA "Bin Ladin unit" agent who wrote the book Imperial Hubris which blames US foreign policy for terrorism. It's a reasonable enough argument and similar works have come out on that subject. But fast forward a couple years and what is Michael Scheuer saying:

"the existance of Israel isn't worth a single dollar"
"it doesn't matter to Americans if anyone ever votes again, we'll get by just fine"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF4_oaTIH8g

Those statements aren't without supporters in the US but they sure are political hot potatoes. But the real bomb shells landed more recently on Glenn Becks slag heap of a FOX infotainment show:

"the only chance we have as a county right now is for Bin Laden to deploy and detonate a major weapon in the United States"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF4_oaTIH8g

Ok, that is pure crazy talk. Not surprising to see crazy talk on Glenn Beck but the source is someone who was on the Nytimes best seller list 5 years ago with a critical look at US foreign policy mistakes and the resulting terrorist blowback. This guy is turning critisism of US foreign policy into an extremly ugly political hot potato.

Either the CIA is chalk full of crazies or the CIA is playing games with the publics attitudes on foreign policy. I tend to think it's the latter but either way it certainly sucks.

[trish]

Yeah I see the problem. The guy who claims to be an eye witness to your favorite conspiracy is discredited. What do you do? Declare he's a honey pot whose intended purpose all along was to discredit the true believers. It's a brilliant strategy. Not very good epistemic methodology, but a brilliant strategy. Victimization has sooo many uses, don't you think? No theory is ever falsified; the believers were just victims of a honey pot.

[techi]

Hippi, here's what Richard Spertzel had to say about the weaponized anthrax in the last round of 2001 anthrax letters. Mr. Spertzel is a microbiologist and germ warfare expert. He was the head of the biological-weapons section of Unscom from 1994-99, was a member of the Iraq Survey Group.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121789293570011775.html

Over the past week the media was gripped by the news that the FBI was about to charge Bruce Ivins, a leading anthrax expert, as the man responsible for the anthrax letter attacks in September/October 2001.

But despite the seemingly powerful narrative that Ivins committed suicide because investigators were closing in, this is still far from a shut case. The FBI needs to explain why it zeroed in on Ivins, how he could have made the anthrax mailed to lawmakers and the media, and how he (or anyone else) could have pulled off the attacks, acting alone.

I believe this is another mistake in the investigation.

Let's start with the anthrax in the letters to Sens. Tom Daschle and Patrick Leahy. The spores could not have been produced at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases, where Ivins worked, without many other people being aware of it. Furthermore, the equipment to make such a product does not exist at the institute.

Information released by the FBI over the past seven years indicates a product of exceptional quality. The product contained essentially pure spores. The particle size was 1.5 to 3 microns in diameter. There are several methods used to produce anthrax that small. But most of them require milling the spores to a size small enough that it can be inhaled into the lower reaches of the lungs. In this case, however, the anthrax spores were not milled.

What's more, they were also tailored to make them potentially more dangerous. According to a FBI news release from November 2001, the particles were coated by a "product not seen previously to be used in this fashion before." Apparently, the spores were coated with a polyglass which tightly bound hydrophilic silica to each particle. That's what was briefed (according to one of my former weapons inspectors at the United Nations Special Commission) by the FBI to the German Foreign Ministry at the time.

Another FBI leak indicated that each particle was given a weak electric charge, thereby causing the particles to repel each other at the molecular level. This made it easier for the spores to float in the air, and increased their retention in the lungs.

In short, the potential lethality of anthrax in this case far exceeds that of any powdered product found in the now extinct U.S. Biological Warfare Program. In meetings held on the cleanup of the anthrax spores in Washington, the product was described by an official at the Department of Homeland Security as "according to the Russian recipes" -- apparently referring to the use of the weak electric charge.

The latest line of speculation asserts that the anthrax's DNA, obtained from some of the victims, initially led investigators to the laboratory where Ivins worked. But the FBI stated a few years ago that a complete DNA analysis was not helpful in identifying what laboratory might have made the product.

Furthermore, the anthrax in this case, the "Ames strain," is one of the most common strains in the world. Early in the investigations, the FBI said it was similar to strains found in Haiti and Sri Lanka. The strain at the institute was isolated originally from an animal in west Texas and can be found from Texas to Montana following the old cattle trails. Samples of the strain were also supplied to at least eight laboratories including three foreign laboratories. Four French government laboratories reported on studies with the Ames strain, citing the Pasteur Institute in Paris as the source of the strain they used. Organism DNA is not a very reliable way to make a case against a scientist.

The FBI has not officially released information on why it focused on Ivins, and whether he was about to be charged or arrested. And when the FBI does release this information, we should all remember that the case needs to be firmly based on solid information that would conclusively prove that a lone scientist could make such a sophisticated product.

From what we know so far, Bruce Ivins, although potentially a brilliant scientist, was not that man. The multiple disciplines and technologies required to make the anthrax in this case do not exist at Army's Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases. Inhalation studies are conducted at the institute, but they are done using liquid preparations, not powdered products.

The FBI spent between 12 and 18 months trying "to reverse engineer" (make a replica of) the anthrax in the letters sent to Messrs. Daschle and Leahy without success, according to FBI news releases. So why should federal investigators or the news media or the American public believe that a lone scientist would be able to do so?

[Rogers]

...or the CIA is playing games with the publics attitudes...

This is all part of their counter-intelligence remit. They did it with spy planes. And they're supposed to be public servants. :lol: :lol: :lol:
"What better way to hide extraordinary aircraft than to wrap them in the compelling fiction of aliens?"
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/1282426.html

And this is all part of the reason why people lose faith in their government and start believing in conspiracy theories.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” - Nietzsche.

Why is the scientist linked to known anthrax going missing from Ft. Dettrick not being investigated, FFS?!?!?!

Philip Zack Steals Anthrax
"They also childishly implicated Arabs ("Death to Israel, Allah is Great?" Please.) precisely at a time when American rage towards the Middle East was reaching a boiling point. That alone served as a deciding factor for many Americans to take war abroad, yet despite being an attack on American soil, the Federal Bureau of Investigation repeatedly drags its feet on the issue.

Simply put, the man most likely responsible for stealing the anthrax is Dr. Philip Zack. Zack is a prominent microbiologist who worked at the U.S. Army's Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases in Fort Detrick, Maryland while weapons-grade Ames anthrax - the same genetic strain used to terrorize the populace - was stored there. A supposed bigot who taunted his Arab colleagues during his tenure at the facility, Zack was also monitored breaking in and conducting experiments during off hours... while no longer employed at the lab."
http://www.thesimon.com/magazine/articles/canon_fodder/01241_philip_zack_steals_anthrax.html

"Soon after the 9/11 attack, a long, typed anonymous letter was sent to Quantico Marine Base accusing the long-suffering Assaad, Zack’s victim in 1991, of plotting terrorism. This letter was received before the anthrax letters or disease were reported. The timing of the note makes its author a serious suspect in the anthrax attacks. The sender also displayed considerable knowledge of Dr. Assaad, his work, his personal life and a remarkable premonition of the upcoming bioterrorism attack.

After interviewing Assaad on Oct. 2, 2001, the FBI decided the letter was a hoax. While major newspapers noted that an anonymous letter had accused Dr. Assaad of bioterrorism, none followed up on it after his innocence was established. Zack’s name never surfaced again as one of the 30 suspects.

When the Washington Report asked Barbara Hatch Rosenberg, Ph.D., a biological arms control expert at the State University of New York, if the allegations regarding Dr. David Hatfill now took the heat off Lt. Col. Philip Zack, she replied, “Zack has NEVER been under suspicion as perpetrator of the anthrax attack.”"
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/sept-oct02/0209018.html

[hippifried]

Hippi, you are incorrect regarding your assesment of Anthrax. The Weaponized versions of anthrax "Bacillus anthracis" are indeed genetically engineered in a molecular bio lab and the resulting product is two fold. 1) it is a far more virulent sub strain and 2) the individual bacterial cell body is far smaller than natural strains, that dwell in soils. This causes for a final product that can be aerosolized with relative ease. Do your homeworkIt's still a bacillus. It's a bacteria. Once you have the strain, you can grow as much as you like in a petri dish. Then all you need is a medium to spread it around. Hence the talcum powder, or diatomaceous earth, or whatever it was. much finer than natural soil, the bacteria clings to it easily, & it gets airborne with any kind of breeze. It doesn't take much. The only true weapons grade was the batch sent to the National Enquirer, & that was probably a piggy-back. Everybody hates them. Y'all act like this is life created in a test tube or something. If you don't care about precision, creating a weapon is no big deal.

[techi]

...or the CIA is playing games with the publics attitudes...

This is all part of their counter-intelligence remit. They did it with spy planes. And they're supposed to be public servants. :lol: :lol: :lol:
"What better way to hide extraordinary aircraft than to wrap them in the compelling fiction of aliens?"
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/1282426.html

And this is all part of the reason why people lose faith in their government and start believing in conspiracy theories.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.” - Nietzsche.

Why is the scientist linked to known anthrax going missing from Ft. Dettrick not being investigated, FFS?!?!?!

Philip Zack Steals Anthrax


The SR-71 was a beastly piece of engineering. They had to stealthily buy a lot of the specialty metal for it overseas... some even from the USSR if I remember right. lol

I agree that there are cases where it is the proper role of the government to lie to the public and/or conceal from the public. But history tells us that governments often lie and/or conceal for improper reasons. Pentagon Papers, Watergate, Iran Contra etc... and sometimes they are just plain lazy

Why the FBI hasn't investigated Philip Zack with regard to the anthrax attacks I cannot understand. It's also worrying that Senator Patrick Leahy is still publicly unsatisfied with the FBI's investigation.

As for Michael Scheuer... if the CIA is playing games with the publics attitude by publicly cheering for another Bin Laden attack... I just don't see how convincing the public that CIA stands for Central Insane Asylum is in the republics best interest.

[techi]

Hippi, you are incorrect regarding your assesment of Anthrax. The Weaponized versions of anthrax "Bacillus anthracis" are indeed genetically engineered in a molecular bio lab and the resulting product is two fold. 1) it is a far more virulent sub strain and 2) the individual bacterial cell body is far smaller than natural strains, that dwell in soils. This causes for a final product that can be aerosolized with relative ease. Do your homeworkIt's still a bacillus. It's a bacteria. Once you have the strain, you can grow as much as you like in a petri dish. Then all you need is a medium to spread it around. Hence the talcum powder, or diatomaceous earth, or whatever it was. much finer than natural soil, the bacteria clings to it easily, & it gets airborne with any kind of breeze. It doesn't take much. The only true weapons grade was the batch sent to the National Enquirer, & that was probably a piggy-back. Everybody hates them. Y'all act like this is life created in a test tube or something. If you don't care about precision, creating a weapon is no big deal.

Hippi, have you read what germ warfare experts have said?

In short, the potential lethality of anthrax in this case far exceeds that of any powdered product found in the now extinct U.S. Biological Warfare Program

The multiple disciplines and technologies required to make the anthrax in this case do not exist at Army's Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases.

The FBI spent between 12 and 18 months trying "to reverse engineer" (make a replica of) the anthrax in the letters sent to Messrs. Daschle and Leahy without success, according to FBI news releases.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121789293570011775.html [/i]

[hippifried]

Hippi, you are incorrect regarding your assesment of Anthrax. The Weaponized versions of anthrax "Bacillus anthracis" are indeed genetically engineered in a molecular bio lab and the resulting product is two fold. 1) it is a far more virulent sub strain and 2) the individual bacterial cell body is far smaller than natural strains, that dwell in soils. This causes for a final product that can be aerosolized with relative ease. Do your homeworkIt's still a bacillus. It's a bacteria. Once you have the strain, you can grow as much as you like in a petri dish. Then all you need is a medium to spread it around. Hence the talcum powder, or diatomaceous earth, or whatever it was. much finer than natural soil, the bacteria clings to it easily, & it gets airborne with any kind of breeze. It doesn't take much. The only true weapons grade was the batch sent to the National Enquirer, & that was probably a piggy-back. Everybody hates them. Y'all act like this is life created in a test tube or something. If you don't care about precision, creating a weapon is no big deal.

Hippi, have you read what germ warfare experts have said?

In short, the potential lethality of anthrax in this case far exceeds that of any powdered product found in the now extinct U.S. Biological Warfare Program

The multiple disciplines and technologies required to make the anthrax in this case do not exist at Army's Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases.

The FBI spent between 12 and 18 months trying "to reverse engineer" (make a replica of) the anthrax in the letters sent to Messrs. Daschle and Leahy without success, according to FBI news releases.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121789293570011775.html [/i]I've seen it. I'm just not impressed by the argument.

The bioweapons program has supposedly been extinct for years. So... What are they doing at Ft Detrick? With improved genetic capabilities, don't you think all this continual "research" would have beefed up the virility of the strains they're playing with? Spertzel's told so many lies that I don't know what to believe from him, but the strain in the letters was traced back to the lab @ Detrick. There's no dispute on that.

I went to the year old WSJ article you linked. When I clinked his name, I got this:
Did you mean RICHARD pretzel?

SEARCH RESULTS (0)
No content matches your search criteria. Please try again.It really looks like he was just trying to help his pal, Ivins. Is he still trying since the putz offed himself?

Of course it took a long time to reverse engineer the stuff from the letters. Ivins was doing it. He was the chief consultant to the FBI, & led them on a series of wild goose chases. It's not like they have their own research labs, or should. The more I look, the more I think the FBI probably ended up getting it right. This guy was a certifiable fruitcake.

As far as I'm concerned, the military & the spooks shouldn't be in charge of any of this research. They have their own agendas. there's no reason for any of this to be secret unless we're weaponizing. Didn't Spertzel say that program was extinct? Anthrax is an agriculture problem.

[techi]

Hippi, you don't like the opinion of one germ warfare expert, fine. But how about the Federation of American Scientists?

http://www.fas.org/programs/ssp/bio/factsheets/anthraxfactsheet.html

Delivery: Humans can become infected with anthrax in three ways-ingestion, inhalation, and cutaneous (skin) exposure. A deliberate anthrax attack, however, would likely rely on inhalation since it is the most deadly. Finely milled powder and aerosolized spray anthrax are easily inhaled.

Production: While cultivating anthrax from naturally occurring sources is relatively simple, producing an effective weaponized form is technically difficult. The anthrax spores must be specially processed to prevent clumping and allow for greater inhalation leading to a fatal infection.

Historic Use: In 2001, the United States experienced an anthrax attack in which weaponized anthrax was delivered via the postal system. Japan used anthrax in WWII in China. In 1979, accidental release of anthrax from a lab in the Soviet Union killed over 60 individuals.

[techi]

The anti-abortion insanity just gives explanation to the targets. I doubt if it was the sole motivation. Ivins was a conservative Catholic. Daschle & Leahy were democratic Congressional leaders & Catholic. Mix that with the attack on the "eastern establishment liberal media", & it all makes a kind of twisted sense. The object of terrorism isn't to kill everybody. It's to force a specific reaction. Ivins stood to gain money, prestige, & a ticket to tenured academe or a book deal.

No one is doubting that Ivins seems like a bit of a nut and is anti-abortion. But suggesting that the targets were picked based on the abortion issue doesn't make all that much sense.

1) While most of the media outlets targets could be considered "liberal" or pro abortion.... I don't see how AMI fit's in that category. AMI is supermarket tabloids.... gossip, ufo sightings and other assorted crazy talk.

2) Senator's Daschle and Leahy are pro abortion Catholic Democrats but so are Senators Kennedy and Biden. And if abortion was the issue, Kennedy and Biden would be on top of the mailing list instead of missing from it.

3) If Ivins intended to kill the Senators then he wouldn't have included a messages saying "this is anthrax". Why warn people if your intent is to kill them? Warning them greatly reduces the chances of them dying from exposure.

4) Was Ivins was just trying to scare the Senators then he could have just used half as much anthrax and mailed it to all 4 pro abortion Democrat Senators.

So yeah, the abortion issue seems like a non starter.

That still leaves the profit motive as a possible explaination. But the profit motive is far less tailored to the lone wolf theory.

Do you really think it's a coincidence that the anthrax attacks dovetailed with 911 and added momentum to: passage of Patriot Act, invasion of Iraq& Afghanistan

The anthrax letters started going out 7 days after 911, how likely is it that Ivins dreamed up his lone wolf plan after 911 and secretly put it all in action in under 7 days? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[hippifried]

I:
The FAS didn't say anything to dispute what I'm saying. Ivins didn't need to weaponize the anthrax. He was already working with it in the lab @ Detrick. He had clearance & unlimited access to the already weaponized anthrax. All he had to do was mix it in the powder, put it in an envelope, & mail it. It's not all that complicated. Especially when you have access to all the equipment necessary to handle it safely. Just prior to the attacks, he put in some long hours where nobody knew exactly what he was doing, & he immunized himself.

II:
Ivins was a nut. Certifiable. His mental problems were well known, & he totally fell apart when he finally figured out that the FBI was on to his bullshit. He had a mental breakdown months before he killed himself.

1) The AMI attack was from a different batch of carrier agent than that sent to the other media. It was the same stuff sent to the Senate, or similar. They never found the actual letter. I'm not sure which batch was in the letter to Chile either. That's an oddball in all of this.

2) Daschle & Leahy were in Senate leadership positions. Kennedy & Biden weren't. The Democrats held the Senate 50 to 49 at the time. Don't forget that this was 8 years ago. The dynamics weren't the same as now.

3) There was no warning. If you opened the envelope & pulled out the note, it was too late.

4) The first attack wave didn't work because the carrier agent was too course. Skin infections only. Somebody had to die to cause the panic. So the second wave had more spores & a better agent. He wasn't trying to scare the Senators. He was trying to scare everybody. Worked like a charm. Caused a major panic & had everybody looking for the Arabs with the bio-weapons.

The abortion angle is new to me too. I heard about it, but I'm still not sure how I feel about it. The "eastern establishment liberal media" is a catch phrase that dates back to Spiro Agnew & is still in sporadic use by crazies on the right. The 3 major networks & the Post are the boogey men. Only 2 of the first 5 letters were found. At the time, while everybody was looking for Arabs, my first reaction was right wing nut, just because of the targets. It made no sense for Muslim fanatics.

The anti-abortion zanies have been top of the game for small domestic terrorism attacks for decades. They developed the whole lone wolf tactic. I don't buy it. It's all instigated, but not ordered. You only have to recruit one crazy who's willing to act, & egg him on. Ivins actually fits the lone nut idea better than the Army of God lone wolf thingie. Look at Kaczynski. The targets all had something in common, although they seemed random, but there was really no single issue to pinpoint.

Coincidences provide opportunity. 9/11 created a mass hysteria. Ivins was already crazy. Nobody's ever going to sort out all of his motivations. There's no manifesto. Was he capable of doing it? Absolutely. He had the equipment & the bug at his disposal, & the knowhow to make it work.

[techi]

I:
The FAS didn't say anything to dispute what I'm saying. Ivins didn't need to weaponize the anthrax. He was already working with it in the lab @ Detrick. He had clearance & unlimited access to the already weaponized anthrax. All he had to do was mix it in the powder, put it in an envelope, & mail it. It's not all that complicated. Especially when you have access to all the equipment necessary to handle it safely. Just prior to the attacks, he put in some long hours where nobody knew exactly what he was doing, & he immunized himself.


Hippi, the FAS does dispute what you've said. First off, the FAS said it was weaponized. You have disputed that. Here's your statement:



Anthrax naturally spreads in a dry state, through spores. It's a living thing. You don't need to create it in a lab. You just need a starter culture. Mix it with a powder substance & let it dry out. What weaponize? Anthrax has been all over the world for thousands of years without any electron microscopes. The spores dry out & will lie in the dust for decades waiting for something to come along & sniff them up.


Weaponized means that it's fine particles that are highly airborn(doesn't clump up). I really don't know what to make of your statement that "it was already weaponized" is supposed to mean. You make it sound like they were storing the airborn powder at the lab... something that is absolutely untrue.

You claim that "you don't need to create it in a lab". If you are talking about the stuff that was put in envelopes then you are incorrect. You most certainly do need a lab to handle material that is both airborn and highly deadly. He immunized himself sure, but that doesn't mean it'd be wise to swim around in the stuff.

In genernal, your characterization that he mixed anthrax with talcum powder and mailed it out is just horribly wrong. Are you saying that the FBI would have trouble recreating such a ghetto process in 18 months? If you were only refering to the first crude attack letters then I'd probably more or less agree with you that Ivins could have done it.

As for his guilt, we aren't arguing that he couldn't be involved. As you point out, his immunization of himself points toward his involvement. Much the same can be said of Bush/Cheney and their staffs starting to take Cipro a week before the first anthrax letter was even mailed. In Ivins case, taking countermeasures to deadly biological material that he actively works with on a daily basis makes far more sense than politicians taking Cipro BEFORE the first attacks. Who advised the Bush team to take Cipro? What tips and intellegence was that move based on? What were the sources?

[techi]

3) There was no warning. If you opened the envelope & pulled out the note, it was too late.



The letters had "ANTHRAX" written right on them. I'd call that a warning.

And no it's not too late once you are exposed. There are treatments. The sooner treatments start after exposer the better.

Also from the Federation of American Scientists:
Effects: Cutaneous (skin) anthrax infection is rarely fatal if treated. Symptoms appear within days of exposure, beginning

Protein structure of anthrax lethal factor*
with an itchy bump that develops into a black sore, sometimes accompanied by flu-like symptoms. Ingestion of anthrax (for example, via contaminated food) causes food poisoning-like symptoms and can be fatal. Inhalation anthrax is the most serious form-mild respiratory symptoms develop into severe symptoms, breathing difficulties, shock, and eventually death if not treated. Symptoms normally appear within a week of exposure, but may not appear for 2 months.
Treatment: While a vaccine for anthrax exists, it is only available to those who are at risk for anthrax exposure, such as the military. Generally, anthrax is treated with a course of antibiotics as soon as symptoms appear or before symptoms appear if exposure is suspected. If treated promptly, anthrax infection usually responds well to antibiotics; however, treatment provided in real-life circumstances is likely to be imperfect-the 2001 anthrax attacks resulted in a 45% fatality rate (5 deaths of 11 infected).

[techi]

It's still a bacillus. It's a bacteria. Once you have the strain, you can grow as much as you like in a petri dish. Then all you need is a medium to spread it around. Hence the talcum powder, or diatomaceous earth, or whatever it was. much finer than natural soil, the bacteria clings to it easily, & it gets airborne with any kind of breeze. It doesn't take much. The only true weapons grade was the batch sent to the National Enquirer, & that was probably a piggy-back. Everybody hates them. Y'all act like this is life created in a test tube or something. If you don't care about precision, creating a weapon is no big deal.

Hmm... piggy-back. That is an interesting possibility you have there Hipi.

I'd have far less trouble believing that Ivins only sent out the first batch of crude anthrax attack letters.

But keep in mind, the exact same strain of anthrax was used in all the attacks. And that strain was not identified until well after the attacks ended. Further, the first knowledge of legitimate anthrax attacks came when Robert Stevens(AMI) was diagnosed on Oct 4th.

As for the letters to Daschle and Leahy, you correctly point out in another post that the key factor is not that they are "bad Catholic" Democrats but rather that they are Democrats in leadership positions. And what key legistation were Daschle and Leahy effectively holding up at the time? The Patriot Act

[techi]

A couple years ago, Colin Powell made some comments that seem very relevant to the anthrax attacks.

"The only thing that can really destroy us is us. We shouldn't do it to ourselves, and we shouldn't use fear for political purposes — scaring people to death so they will vote for you, or scaring people to death so that we create a terror-industrial complex."
- Colin Powell

http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/voices/200709/0912world0.htm

[hippifried]

Weaponized means that it's fine particles that are highly airborn(doesn't clump up). I really don't know what to make of your statement that "it was already weaponized" is supposed to mean. You make it sound like they were storing the airborn powder at the lab... something that is absolutely untrue. That's just the carrier agent. It was changed after the first attack against the TV networks & the post. The bug was the same, & the spores weren't coated. The dosage was upped with the lighter material. I'm going to stop using the term "weaponized", since the meaning keeps changing. The bug was already genetically engineered for increased virulence. Ivins had access to it with nobody really watching him until after the FBI got involved. The carrier can be anything. All he needed to do was put it in an envelope & contaminate it. This wasn't a bomb. It wasn't some fancy aerosol sprayer. There were no mechanisms. It was just powder in an envelope, with a return address from a 4th grade class at some ficticious grade school. Pull out the note & the stuff goes all over the place. The spores were already in the lab. It's not that complicated.

The reason the FBI seemed so inept & took so long to figure out what happened is because their "expert" consultant (Ivins) gave them a runaround. When they didn't buy the Arab terrorist routine, he tried framing his coworkers. By the time they cleared everybody else, they had to start all over again. Everything points to Ivins.



The letters had "ANTHRAX" written right on them. I'd call that a warning.But the letters were inside sealed envelopes, & it said nothing on the envelopes. You really think some underling would have opened a letter that said "ANTHRAX" on it when the Secret Service was close by? Not likely. Especially after the first attack. Now you're just trying to get crazy.



As for the letters to Daschle and Leahy, you correctly point out in another post that the key factor is not that they are "bad Catholic" Democrats but rather that they are Democrats in leadership positions. And what key legistation were Daschle and Leahy effectively holding up at the time? The Patriot Act There you go. Just another wingnut. Ivins was also a pro-Israel fanatic. Like I said, we'll never sort out all the motivations of a dead lunatic. But there's no physical reason why Ivins couldn't have done this & done it on his own.

[techi]

The letters had "ANTHRAX" written right on them. I'd call that a warning.But the letters were inside sealed envelopes, & it said nothing on the envelopes. You really think some underling would have opened a letter that said "ANTHRAX" on it when the Secret Service was close by? Not likely. Especially after the first attack. Now you're just trying to get crazy.

The point was, you are more likely to kill people exposed to anthrax if they do not realize that they have been exposed to it. There are treatments for anthrax exposure. The sooner you seek treatment the better your chances are. What's so crazy about that?




As for the letters to Daschle and Leahy, you correctly point out in another post that the key factor is not that they are "bad Catholic" Democrats but rather that they are Democrats in leadership positions. And what key legistation were Daschle and Leahy effectively holding up at the time? The Patriot Act There you go. Just another wingnut. Ivins was also a pro-Israel fanatic. Like I said, we'll never sort out all the motivations of a dead lunatic. But there's no physical reason why Ivins couldn't have done this & done it on his own.

Wing-nut? lol. Why, for pointing out that there are far more rational motives than the FBI's clunky anti-abortion theory?

From what's been said about Ivins, personal profit and hawkish pro-Israeli military posture would fit right in. But you say wing-nut...

Asking the simple question of who has benefited from the Anthrax attacks would lead toward:
- element(s) of terror industrial complex,
- people that wanted invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq,
- people that wanted the Patriot Act passed. Leahy and Daschle were less than helpful in pushing that thru.

Ivins might have expected to benefit from all of the above except he's dead...

Why did the FBI end the case the way it did? Well, this case has been a highly visible failure for the FBI. They've had senators such as Leahy poke at them endlessly about it. It could easily be that Ivins death was an easy way out of a case that they viewed as having caused more trouble than they felt it was worth.

But as Rogers has pointed out, there are other people of interest that haven't been investigated. And there's the totally wierd linkages of one of the anthrax victims to the 911 hijackers....

The wife of one of the AMI anthrax victims had rented a Delray Beach apartment to two of the hijackers that summer. The apartment was also considered a "meeting grounds" for terrorists. Also, that same AMI anthrax victim had been a member of a flying group at the same small plane airport that hijacker Atta had been using to practice. These are really wierd one in a million connections.... but even one in a million things do happen. Either way, the story benefited warhawks.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/101501/Worldandnation/Hijackers_linked_to_t.shtml

[hippifried]

I called Ivins a wingnut. Don't take everything so personal.