60 minutes = $188 million in new debt

[trish]

... yes the Catholic Church, (for what it is), believes in the Trinity doctrine.

Now I didn't ask you that, did I? My question is, "Does the Catholic Church teach that the Captain of the Lord who spoke to Joshua is Jesus Christ?" Stop prevaricating and answer.
[BTW, the equality relation is symmetric; i.e. a=b if and only if b=a].

[robertlouis]

Amen brother!

I presume you're meaning billionaires and global corporations?

[Faldur]

Now I didn't ask you that, did I? My question is, "Does the Catholic Church teach that the Captain of the Lord who spoke to Joshua is Jesus Christ?" Stop prevaricating and answer.
[BTW, the equality relation is symmetric; i.e. a=b if and only if b=a].

Hmm.. "stop prevaricating the answer". To teach anything different would be biblically wrong. No angel would ever allow the worship of himself/herself, nor would they ever make a statement like "the ground you stand is holy". To do so would be to earn a starting position on the other team. Not sure what your after here Trish, if you have a point to share, then share it. Michael the Archangel would not allow a mortal to worship Him. It would mean his demise, and separation from Heaven.

To the best of my knowledge Catholicism supports my statements. But again your talking about the religion formed by the Roman Empire to appease all Christian's. It was not then nor now a religion in high standing. It wasn't until recently that the Catholics even acknowledged the book of Revelation.

[trish]

You still didn't answer the question. You're trying to side step it because to the best of your knowledge the answer is "No" isn't it? I wasn't going to stop my questioning with Catholicism. You presume too much. Next, how about the Anglican Church? Does the Anglican Church EXPLICITLY teach that the Captain of the Lord is Jesus Christ?

We might be able to speed things up. Was anyone here taught in Church or Sunday School that the Captain of the Lord IS Jesus Christ? Where you EXPLICITLY taught the Captain was the Lord Himself? If so to what denomination do you belong? or to what church are you a member?

[trish]

Does the notion of the Trinity justify taking any occurrence God in the Bible and replacing it with Jesus? Did Jesus create the first man? If Jesus is flesh isn’t he a man? And if Jesus was around before creation wasn’t Jesus the first man, not Adam? Can we say God the Father died on the cross? Did the Holy Spirit die on the cross? Did God ask whether He was forsaken by Jesus? Did God ask whether he was forsaken by the Holy Spirit? Does Trinity allow us to willy-nilly interchange these three manifestations of the Christian godhead? Answering all these questions positively merely trivializes the whole notion of the Trinity and at the same time renders scripture more incomprehensible than it already is. Why does Abraham call the “Jesus” in Genesis 18 “Lord” and why does Jesus name himself to Joshua “The Captain of the Lord” and not "The Lord", or "The Son of God"? Why would the King, or a Son, or a Spirit call himself a captain?

We’re told that to become flesh the Lord had to be born of Mary. But if He became flesh previously, as His alleged appearances in the Old Testament would require, were there other virgin births? And why aren’t any of those births celebrated in the Old Testament, or even noted? Who were the previous Virgin Mothers of Jesus? Or was the route through Mary entirely unnecessary and just a whim?

So why is any of this lunatic fantasy important? Why all of sudden in the early 21 century are there a handful of heretics talking about the previous appearances of Christ on Earth in the Old Testament? I don’t know but here’s a conjecture. The two thousand year old tradition of Christ the merciful, Christ giver of the Golden Rule, Christ who teaches to turn the other cheek, Christ the savior of the poor, the weak, the sick, the children. Christ who deplores war and vengeance. Christ the God of love is a big disappointment to some modern fundamentalist, conservative Christians. The good ol’ end-time Christians envision a Christ in armor, riding a white steed, wielding a sword and lopping off the heads unbelievers, blasphemers, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, witches, wizards sending them all to hell. They prefer an Old Testament God and the two millennium tradition of Christ the God of Love just wasn’t working for them. Christ needs a makeover. We need Christ, the Captain of the Lord who gives military advice to Joshua before the battle of Jericho. And so there he is. All you need is some mumbo jumbo about the Trinity, a herd of willing sheep (oh, I mean some really skeptical minds...you know...deep thinking skeptics about science, evolution, climate, energy...stuff like that) and a myth is born. The time traveling Jesus is now everywhere in the Old Testament.

[Nicole Dupre]

Does the notion of the Trinity justify taking any occurrence God in the Bible and replacing it with Jesus? Did Jesus create the first man? If Jesus is flesh isn’t he a man? And if Jesus was around before creation wasn’t Jesus the first man, not Adam? Can we say God the Father died on the cross? Did the Holy Spirit die on the cross? Did God ask whether He was forsaken by Jesus? Did God ask whether he was forsaken by the Holy Spirit? Does Trinity allow us to willy-nilly interchange these three manifestations of the Christian godhead? Answering all these questions positively merely trivializes the whole notion of the Trinity and at the same time renders scripture more incomprehensible than it already is. Why does Abraham call the “Jesus” in Genesis 18 “Lord” and why does Jesus name himself to Joshua “The Captain of the Lord” and not "The Lord", or "The Son of God"? Why would the King, or a Son, or a Spirit call himself a captain?

We’re told that to become flesh the Lord had to be born of Mary. But if He became flesh previously, as His alleged appearances in the Old Testament would require, were there other virgin births? And why aren’t any of those births celebrated in the Old Testament, or even noted? Who were the previous Virgin Mothers of Jesus? Or was the route through Mary entirely unnecessary and just a whim?

So why is any of this lunatic fantasy important? Why all of sudden in the early 21 century are there a handful of heretics talking about the previous appearances of Christ on Earth in the Old Testament? I don’t know but here’s a conjecture. The two thousand year old tradition of Christ the merciful, Christ giver of the Golden Rule, Christ who teaches to turn the other cheek, Christ the savior of the poor, the weak, the sick, the children. Christ who deplores war and vengeance. Christ the God of love is a big disappointment to some modern fundamentalist, conservative Christians. The good ol’ end-time Christians envision a Christ in armor, riding a white steed, wielding a sword and lopping off the heads unbelievers, blasphemers, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, witches, wizards sending them all to hell. They prefer an Old Testament God and the two millennium tradition of Christ the God of Love just wasn’t working for them. Christ needs a makeover. We need Christ, the Captain of the Lord who gives military advice to Joshua before the battle of Jericho. And so there he is. All you need is some mumbo jumbo about the Trinity, a herd of willing sheep (oh, I mean some really skeptical minds...you know...deep thinking skeptics about science, evolution, climate, energy...stuff like that) and a myth is born. The time traveling Jesus is now everywhere in the Old Testament.

Awesome post. lol Owned. lol

[hippifried]

Being raised Catholic; I've never heard any church dogma that has Jesus Christ appearing at any time other than the 33 years from his birth to ascension. I've never heard os any dogma of that nature from the Protestant idolators either. But then again, it's hard to keep up with all the new things that spring from those johnny-come-latelys. Even the gnostics don't make that claim. As far as I know, the only ones who claim a later appearance & teachings of Jesus Christ are the Mormons. Of course if they had any credence, that story would show up somewhere in the Native American lore. It doesn't. the closest story is of the Great Peacemaker Deganawida. Even he wasn't considered divine. Visual appearances in the Bible are usually angels. Appearances By God are usually just a voice or a direct thought, except for the burning bush.

[robertlouis]

Awesome post. lol Owned. lol

Great post Trish. I've never been able to reconcile the core tenets of Christianity, as a lapsed Presbyterian, against the fire and brimstone old testament beliefs of so many fundamentalist Christians. There was always a huge contradiction there. Now I understand, thank you.

Just one small thing - you omitted to mention gays, lesbians, bisexuals and the transgendered in your list of those for whom the warrior Christ spells the end, unless of course there's a special corner of hell already reserved for them.

It strikes me that such people are slowly dragging their vision of America ever closer to the Christian equivalent of the militant Islamic states that they so affect to despise.

[Faldur]

You're trying to side step it because to the best of your knowledge the answer is "No" isn't it? Next, how about the Anglican Church? Does the Anglican Church EXPLICITLY teach that the Captain of the Lord is Jesus Christ?

We might be able to speed things up. Was anyone here taught in Church or Sunday School that the Captain of the Lord IS Jesus Christ? Where you EXPLICITLY taught the Captain was the Lord Himself? If so to what denomination do you belong? or to what church are you a member?

Wow, wake up to homework. Welcome to Monday. Trish I am not going to speak for the Catholic or Anglican church because I know very little of their doctrine. I will say as a young boy I was molested, errr.. raised in a Catholic church and I can tell you the study of Joshua never came up.

The link I posted previously was the Catholics view of the Trinity, and I believe it aligns closely with mine.

Does the notion of the Trinity justify taking any occurrence God in the Bible and replacing it with Jesus?

Yes

Did Jesus create the first man?

Yes

If Jesus is flesh isn’t he a man?

No, He chose to manifest himself in the flesh. He is God, He can also do some amazing card tricks. Even did a buffet lunch for about 75, "Then Moses and Aaron...and 70 elders..saw the God of Israel...they beheld God, and ate and drank." (Ex 24:9-11)

Can we say God the Father died on the cross? Did the Holy Spirit die on the cross?

No, Jesus the Son of God manifest in flesh died on the cross.

Does Trinity allow us to willy-nilly interchange these three manifestations of the Christian godhead?

No, they are one. "I and the Father are One". (John 10:30)

Answering all these questions positively merely trivializes the whole notion of the Trinity and at the same time renders scripture more incomprehensible than it already is.

Well I don't think all of the answers were positive, but the facts in the book can lead you to no other conclusion. To do so with be contradictory to the statements and quotes of the Bible.

The New Testament clearly teaches that no one has seen God the Father and also teaches that Jesus was with God from the beginning of creation. "1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 2He was in the beginning with God.", and in 1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." And as told in John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Has anyone seen God or not?
Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:11, Exodus 6:2-3; and John 1:18

Has seen
(Gen. 17:1) – “Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty ; Walk before Me, and be blameless;
(Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
(Exodus 6:2-3) – “God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
(Exodus 24:9-11) – “Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
(Num. 12:6- – “He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7"Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?"
(Acts 7:2), "And he [Stephen] said, 'Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran...'"

Has not seen
(Exodus 33:20) – “But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live !"
(John 1:1 – “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37) – “"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46) - "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”

Why does Abraham call the “Jesus” in Genesis 18 “Lord” and why does Jesus name himself to Joshua “The Captain of the Lord” and not "The Lord", or "The Son of God"? Why would the King, or a Son, or a Spirit call himself a captain?

Can't answer why the name choice Trish, there is no biblical text to support anything more than opinion. But I do know that no Angel would ever allow man to worship them, nor ask them to remove their shoes because the ground is holy just by the Angels presence. The only two possibilities would be it was God, and had to be God the Son, (If it were God the Father Joshua would have not survived the encounter), or it was Lucifer. Lucifer would be the only angel, (however fallen), that would allow man to worship him.

We’re told that to become flesh the Lord had to be born of Mary. But if He became flesh previously, as His alleged appearances in the Old Testament would require, were there other virgin births? And why aren’t any of those births celebrated in the Old Testament, or even noted? Who were the previous Virgin Mothers of Jesus? Or was the route through Mary entirely unnecessary and just a whim?

I don't think you will find anywhere in the Bible that states "to become flesh the Lord had to be born of Mary. There were no other virgin births that were recorded.

So why is any of this lunatic fantasy important? Why all of sudden in the early 21 century are there a handful of heretics talking about the previous appearances of Christ on Earth in the Old Testament?

I hate to burst your bubble, but its been basic theology taught in most bible colleges.

I don’t know but here’s a conjecture. The two thousand year old tradition of Christ the merciful, Christ giver of the Golden Rule, Christ who teaches to turn the other cheek, Christ the savior of the poor, the weak, the sick, the children. Christ who deplores war and vengeance. Christ the God of love is a big disappointment to some modern fundamentalist, conservative Christians.

Modern Churches, mega-churches in particular, have modified there teachings to make religion more palatable. To put "butts in the seats" as they say. Theology doesn't change, the facts of the Book are constant. What religions and churches choose to teach is they're choice.

Christ is everything you describe, even more. But you can't, (well I guess you can if you choose so), ignore God's wrath when men turn their backs on Him. They estimate 5 billion died in the flood. The day that Jericho fell an estimated 140,000 men, women and children were killed. So the warm fuzzy side of Jesus is a pretty amazing thing, lest not overlook the whole picture.

They prefer an Old Testament God and the two millennium tradition of Christ the God of Love just wasn’t working for them. Christ needs a makeover. We need Christ, the Captain of the Lord who gives military advice to Joshua before the battle of Jericho.

The doctrine of "Jesus came and now the Old Testament no longer applies" is a doctrine of wishful thinking. The book must be taken in context in its entirety.

If so to what denomination do you belong? or to what church are you a member?

I don't align myself with any denomination, I'm not really a big fan of religion. I believe in relationship not religion. I spent 12 years in a local community church, that was a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. I currently attend an Acts 29 church, (Acts 29 is an organization started by Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church).

You are gifted with an exceptional mind Trish, I am envious. (Still not stupid, just a little out of my league)

[Silcc69]

Wow we went from debt to religion.