60 minutes = $188 million in new debt

[Faldur]

Well Yoda we have a fundamental difference of opinion of what the responsibility of government is. I differ with you on the social engineering that you want government to participate in.

In my opinion our country was strongest when "the general good" of our society was left to the individuals deal with and not wealth re-distrabution by a bloated government. We had less poor before the war on poverty. And in fact if we had just given the funds used by government to fight poverty directly to the poor we would be in better shape.

I also believe its the governments responsibility to focus on its ledger. We have a government operating over 750 days without a budget. Thats not just ignoring the ledger thats irresponsible recklessness.

I do admire your opinion, you obviously care a great deal.

[Silcc69]

Well Yoda we have a fundamental difference of opinion of what the responsibility of government is. I differ with you on the social engineering that you want government to participate in.

In my opinion our country was strongest when "the general good" of our society was left to the individuals deal with and not wealth re-distrabution by a bloated government. We had less poor before the war on poverty. And in fact if we had just given the funds used by government to fight poverty directly to the poor we would be in better shape.

I also believe its the governments responsibility to focus on its ledger. We have a government operating over 750 days without a budget. Thats not just ignoring the ledger thats irresponsible recklessness.

I do admire your opinion, you obviously care a great deal.

Please explain how do we do that?

[Faldur]

Please explain how do we do that?

Well since 1964 we have spent close to $7 trillion on the "war on poverty", with no measurable improvement. Quite simply had we just taken the $7 trillion dollars and just mailed it to the "poor" we would have damn near eradicated poverty.

Anything government does it does extremely poorly. Lets look at some of the benifets we received for our $7 trillion dollar investment. (taken from S. Leon Felkins, "Poverty's Paradoxes and Intractable Dilemmas")

Between 1965 and 2000, welfare spending cost taxpayers over $8 trillion (in constant 1999 dollars) -- Johnson's estimate of $970 million, not withstanding.

From the start of the "Great Society" in 1964 to 1972, families on welfare tripled (approximately 1 million to 3 million). As a showing of appreciation to Johnson for this wonderful job, there was massive and bloody rioting in the ghettos of American cities, peaking in 1967.

Out-of-Wedlock births for African-Americans, driven by welfare system rules, has grown from around 20% in the early '60s to nearly 70% in the '90s.

The total state and federal annual spending for welfare programs has grown from approximately $40 billion in 1960 to $450 billion in 2000 and continues to increase in spite of the so-called "ending of welfare as we know it" legislation of 1996.

From 1960 to 2000, the crime rate has tripled and the incarceration rate has increased by nearly 400 percent (another form of welfare?) -- see Charles Murray's "The Underclass Revisited". (Murray also has a book of the same title, available here.)

At the start of the National School Lunch Program in 1946, there were approximately 7.1 million students that participated. By 1997 there were nearly 27 million participants in spite of an enormous increase in the economic well being of the country during that time (source, USDA "School Lunch Program - Fact Sheets"). Sadly, grades, nevertheless, went down.


Those are statistics from a 10 year old article, the costs and size of the 80 some odd welfare programs has sky rocketed since 2001. It is estimated $1.05 trillion was spent in 2005 on all federal, state and local programs. Had we just sent the 37 million "poor" a check they would have received $27,000 each person. Thats $81,000 for a family of 3. Instead we enslaved them into a system that condemns them to a lifetime of poverty.

[hippifried]

Another story told by somebody who never saw the abject poverty prior to 1964. It's not about $ figures.

[Faldur]

It's not about $ figures.

I will agree with you on that, its not about $. But shouldn't somewhere in the equation it be about results?

Flushing good money after bad in a program that is broken is insane.

[hippifried]

Good money after bad? That's a lot of assuming. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Silcc69]

Faldur, what are your thought's on this?

http://www.newrules.org/retail/news/...lic-assistance

[Faldur]

Faldur, what are your thought's on this?

Well for starters I choose not to work at Walmart, nor Mcdonald's or Burger King. They are a law abiding employer who pays on average 133% above minimum wage.

Slicc would you consider working for Walmart a permanent full time job? Once upon a time I worked taking tickets at a movie theatre for $1.57 per hour. It was a great way to get money to date chicks but I always knew it was a dead end. Thankfully I earn a bit more than that today.

If you don't like Walmart you have the right not to support them, you have the right not to work for them, and you have the right to try and convince others to do the same.

[Faldur]

Good money after bad? That's a lot of assuming. You don't know what you're talking about.

And Hippi why is it so terrible in your opinion to expect results for the hard earned money we spend? To blindly throw money at a problem with no means of judging the impact that money is making is just foolish.

Im obviously no genius, but I think I know a little something about what I'm talking about.

[Faldur]

Like I fully understand how our government just put another $58.65 billion on our kids credit card in the 12 days this thread has existed.