Muslims

[onmyknees]

this thread deeply saddens and sickens me how you people think... and of all places on a tranny board.. i mean srsly guys? this is just sad and i hope all this hate is a joke

That's precisely why this is the place for Politics and religion and particularily where they merge. The General Discussion board is probably better suited for you baby. You sound like a sweet lady, and I don't mean this to sound to harsh, but you're naive. The middle east and North Africa is on fire, and the US involved in 3 major conflicts. Jews and Christians and innocent Muslims are being killed everyday in those places. I'd like to buy the world a coke and sing in harmony, but this is far too serious.

[onmyknees]

Good points there Stavros. I think Islam, has a giant public relations problem, without having centralized leadership to speak up for it. Its like every bad thing or stupid thing done by Muslims, makes worldwide news, so the only news we get of nearly 1.4 billion peope is when someone gets murdered. It has been like that here with Blacks, except that we have sports and entertainment figures. Plus there seems to be lots of misinformation being put out about Islam.

I think the biggest misconception, is that Muslims consider Christian and Jews, to be non-believers, thus subject to the objects to battle, by the Prophet. This is not true. The Koran, says that Allah is the same God that is in the Bible, and Torah. Many people believe that Allah is somehow a different God. Not true. Another big misconception is that the word 'jihad', means acts of violence. The word, I'm told simply means 'struggle'. One could struggle against being overcome by vices, for example. Thus there is a saying; "the greatest jihad is within." Certainly military force is included in the meaning of jihad,but one could "defend the faith" by writing a letter to a newspaper editor, as an example.

We in the West seem to intuitively understand, that when a Christian kills someone, it is rarely for religious reasons. How many murders are there a year in the US? We seem to understand that when a Christian kills someone, he is usually not following the teachings of his religion. Yet too many people seem to believe that most killing done by Muslims is because of their religion. There are many cultural practices, that of an ethnic origin, that are not sanctioned by the Koran. I believe the practice of "honor killings", is one of these.

Lastly, I consder myself a religious person. I see the belief in God, as a means to feel a common connection, to others, beyond self, community, nationality, etc. It provides mankind witht he understanding that our actions have consequences, beyond what we can see. Of course one can feel this outside of being religious, but with religion, it is practically a given concept. And lots of people dont realize how, religions give comfort from stressful everyday lives. Jesus said, "not to worry about tomorrow". And 2000 years later doctors are saying that stress is the number one killer. Our views of a life and universe governed by order (God), can be the difference between having peace and hope, or living in fear.

I take you to be a calm, peaceful, thoughtful person Yoda, and your point is not lost on me...but these incidents by Muslims are not isolated as you seem to suggest. This wordwide violence is not similar to black on black crime for example when the reasons are neither racial, nor religious. I do not consider what is happening in the world with respect to Islam as being "crime" in the way we typically define it here. This is not nearly as random and opportunistic as a random armed robbery gone bad. This is about religion and about hate. You more than likely will not see these stories if you only read the NYT and watch the politically correct evening news. I could fill pages with these disturbing stories. You leave us with the impression that there's just a few bad eggs in every basket, and it's just being over blown by the media. Frankly...it's being under reported in the media. A few quick keystrokes and it wasn't hard to find dozens of stories similar to these...Yes, it's complex and differes from country to country but there remains one deep, disturbing commonality.


Mardan (Agenzia Fides) — “Convert or die”. Masih Gill, Christian from the city of Mardan, in the province of “Khyber Pakhtunkhwa” (Northern Pakistan), was threatened with these words by a group of Muslims with whom he had been speaking, after the recent episode of the burning of the Koran in the US. This event brought violent reactions in Pakistan (three churches attacked in a week) by Muslim extremists.
Local sources of say that Masih Gill simply defended his faith, saying that Christians respect all religions and do not nurture hostility towards anyone. The discussion then degenerated and the Muslims seriously threatened Gill. At the end of the fight, they also gave him intimidating notice that he would be incriminated for blasphemy.
Masih Gill, father, is now in hiding, and his family — thanks to the intervention of the Masihi Foundation who also defend Asia Bibi — will be transferred to a more secure place. The city of Mardan, in fact, is infested with radical Muslim groups which terrorise civilians, especially the religious minorities.




Poll: One-third of Palestinians support Itamar attack

By JPOST.COM STAFF
04/06/2011 15:04

Most Gazans seek widespread demonstrations against Hamas; Palestinians don't think Mideast protests will bring statehood.

Talkbacks (12)

One-third of Palestinians support the attack in Itamar in March, in which an Israeli family of five was murdered while 63 percent opposed it, according to a Hebrew University poll released on Wednesday.

The survey was conducted by Prof. Yaacov Shamir of the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace and the Department of Communication and Journalism at the Hebrew University, and Prof. Khalil Shikaki, Director of the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR).





Shamir and Shikaki also found that 67% of Gazans seek to organize demonstrations against the Hamas government, like the ones in Egypt and Tunisia.

However, most Palestinians (66%) and Israelis (73%) do not think that such protests "would be capable of ending the occupation nor of stopping settlements."

Nearly 70% of Israelis said that it is unlikely that Israeli Arabs would hold major demonstrations.

Over half (54%) of Palestinians said they did not think that protests in the Middle East would increase the likelihood of establishing a Palestinian state in the next five years, while only 42% agreed.



CAIRO (AP) — Islamic hard-liners, some of them heavily suppressed under three decades of Hosni Mubarak’s regime, are enthusiastically diving into Egypt’s new freedoms, forming political parties to enter upcoming elections and raising alarm that they will try to lead the country into fundamentalist rule.
Some militants, taking advantage of a security vacuum, aren’t waiting for the political process. They have attacked Christians and liquor stores, trying to impose their austere version of Islamic law in provincial towns.
The Islamists’ newfound energy prompted the ruling military to warn on Monday that Egypt “will not be turned into Gaza or Iran.”
Islamists could fare well in parliamentary elections scheduled for September, especially if the various groups run on a unified ticket. Their chances are boosted by the disarray among other groups. Traditional opposition parties were deeply restricted under Mubarak’s 29-year rule and have no popular base to speak of. The liberal youth groups behind the 18-day uprising that forced Mubarak to step down on Feb. 11 are still scrambling to organize before voting day.
The Islamists, furthermore, are well funded and organized. The most established fundamentalist group, the Muslim Brotherhood, has years of experience in contesting elections.

[yodajazz]

...

Mardan (Agenzia Fides) — “Convert or die”. Masih Gill, Christian from the city of Mardan, in the province of “Khyber Pakhtunkhwa” (Northern Pakistan), was threatened with these words by a group of Muslims with whom he had been speaking, after the recent episode of the burning of the Koran in the US. This event brought violent reactions in Pakistan (three churches attacked in a week) by Muslim extremists.
Local sources of say that Masih Gill simply defended his faith, saying that Christians respect all religions and do not nurture hostility towards anyone. The discussion then degenerated and the Muslims seriously threatened Gill. At the end of the fight, they also gave him intimidating notice that he would be incriminated for blasphemy.
Masih Gill, father, is now in hiding, and his family — thanks to the intervention of the Masihi Foundation who also defend Asia Bibi — will be transferred to a more secure place. The city of Mardan, in fact, is infested with radical Muslim groups which terrorise civilians, especially the religious minorities.
...

This story is not much about Islam, but a lot about how people, and groups of people dont think correctly. Think about it. Why would people in Pakistan, get mad at someone for someone else's actions in Florida? But the reality we do the exact same thing. We are judge a Muslim in Oklahoma from the actions of someone other Muslim in Iraq, or elsewhere. The Koran or the Bible still give people the option to chose between 'justice' and mercy. The so called "justice" in the story was the people questioning the Christian man. That they made him accountable for someone else's behavior, was the error in thinking. The only way he would be guilty is, if the Florida pastor, was following his specific instructions. The story is about, the outletting of the destructive emotions of anger, because their actions were not based on logic. Looking at racism, you see that it is a model of the same principle. Here is the US, in the 20's or 30's, a properous Black town/community, or two, were burnt to the ground, over one rape allegation. Note that the 'terrorists' were White Christians. The Bible should say somewhere, that rape is wrong. But burning down a town is not about following the Bible. It about the outletting of anger.

There is a political elements in Islam. I realize that we need to be vigilent against declared enemy groups. But the solutions need to recognize and separate, ideology, from simple emotional actions, such as revenge that hurt innocent people.

[yodajazz]

I take you to be a calm, peaceful, thoughtful person Yoda, and your point is not lost on me...but these incidents by Muslims are not isolated as you seem to suggest. This wordwide violence is not similar to black on black crime for example when the reasons are neither racial, nor religious. I do not consider what is happening in the world with respect to Islam as being "crime" in the way we typically define it here. This is not nearly as random and opportunistic as a random armed robbery gone bad. This is about religion and about hate. You more than likely will not see these stories if you only read the NYT and watch the politically correct evening news. I could fill pages with these disturbing stories. You leave us with the impression that there's just a few bad eggs in every basket, and it's just being over blown by the media. Frankly...it's being under reported in the media. A few quick keystrokes and it wasn't hard to find dozens of stories similar to these...Yes, it's complex and differes from country to country but there remains one deep, disturbing commonality.
...

I agree that under reporting is a major issue. Only it's the actions of Israel, that are being whitewashed, or underplayed. They are over there taking people's lands and homes, who have resided there for centuries. A story about the Israeli raid on the flotilla bringing medical aid and supplies to Palestine, did not seem to get much major airplay. The former US Black congresswoman, who ran for President (or vice) as a indepedent, certainly got no publicity. She was in the flotilla. The treatment of Palestinians, gets news in the Arab/Mulsim world. Over here we get Israel's side, mostly. If people here saw more of both sides, they would understand that it is maybe more about treating people right, than anything else.

But I did see a passage in the Koran, that applies to the Palestinian situation. It said something to the effect of; "You are not forbidden, to treat anyone kindly, except those that fight you for you faith, or drive you from your homes." So the meaning here is clearly defensive only. It's not about being a follower of the Prophet, to be treated kindly, here. But it seems to apporve of fighting from having your land taken. I believe, along with Jimmy Carter, that it would help if we looked at Israel on it's fair treatment of others, as part of the solution, or problem.

[onmyknees]

I agree that under reporting is a major issue. Only it's the actions of Israel, that are being whitewashed, or underplayed. They are over there taking people's lands and homes, who have resided there for centuries. A story about the Israeli raid on the flotilla bringing medical aid and supplies to Palestine, did not seem to get much major airplay. The former US Black congresswoman, who ran for President (or vice) as a indepedent, certainly got no publicity. She was in the flotilla. The treatment of Palestinians, gets news in the Arab/Mulsim world. Over here we get Israel's side, mostly. If people here saw more of both sides, they would understand that it is maybe more about treating people right, than anything else.

But I did see a passage in the Koran, that applies to the Palestinian situation. It said something to the effect of; "You are not forbidden, to treat anyone kindly, except those that fight you for you faith, or drive you from your homes." So the meaning here is clearly defensive only. It's not about being a follower of the Prophet, to be treated kindly, here. But it seems to apporve of fighting from having your land taken. I believe, along with Jimmy Carter, that it would help if we looked at Israel on it's fair treatment of others, as part of the solution, or problem.

Ever the peacemaker Yoda !! ever consider employment in lower Manhattan at the UN? LOL I'm not poking fun...there is much thought in what you write. It's not worth detangling the Isreali-Palestinian thing here...hell the best diplomats in the world haven't been able to resolve that struggle, but I will say this to paraphrase Netanyahu....If the Palestinians put down thier arms tomorrow there would be no war....If Isreal put down thier arms tomorrow there would be no Isreal. What was eye opening to me was several years ago Arafat walked away from an agreement on the table that not only addressed the 2 state solution, but just about everything else he had been posturing for. It would seem peace was not in his best self interest. And here we are today.

[Stavros]

If the Palestinians put down thier arms tomorrow there would be no war....If Isreal put down thier arms tomorrow there would be no Isreal.

The problem here is that the two parties to this dispute have no confidence in each other. Arafat was being asked to yield even more territory to Israel in exchange for another deal in site of the fact that Israel has reneged on the earlier treaty and has such a lamentable record on territorial concessions anyway. Even Arafat, who put his own interests first, could not have 'sold' this to the Palestinians. In the meantime, the PLO, whose corruption is legendary even in a region as venal as the Middle East, has seen its legitimacy eroded and the so-called militants in Hamas steal some of its thunder. The Wikileaks revelations via the 'Palestine Papers' undermined further the credibility of the PLO which, like the Arab regimes falling to pieces before our eyes, has been indifferent to 'the people' -I even wonder if the PLO and Hamas can represent the Palestinians, but there has been since the 19th century a chronic failure of leadership among the Palestinians -the sad truth is that they are good at a hundred and one things, except poltics. There is a strong constituency in Israel that wants a 'meaningful' and a 'just peace', and are willing to trade territory to get it. I don't think it will happen in the short to medium term, in part because Netanyahu and particularly Lieberman are opposed to anything that doesn't have 'Made in Israel' stamped on it, in part because the Palestinian politicians are so feeble; and because third parties are suffering from the fatigue of trying to bang these heads together. When Tony Blair and Bertie Aherne (and Bill Clinton) sponsored a peace treaty in Northern Ireland, the two blocs -the Republicans and the Loyalists, had exhausted all their options on the battlefield, they couldn't sustain the cost of buying weapons and the loss of life, and were prepared to swallow bitter pills to get what they wanted. As far as Israel and the Palestinians go, I'm afraid its 'more of the same' for some time to come.

[onmyknees]

I think everyone should read and heed this from Richard Engle. He's no right winger for those who are unfimilar with his reporting, but there may be no one as fimilar with the region than him. ...or as courageous as a reporter. If this isn't ominus....I'm not sure what is...What happened to all that talk of Arab democracies?

NBC’s Engel ‘Worried’ About ‘Ferociously Anti-Israel’ Arab Street, ‘This Thing Ends in Jerusalem’

By Brad Wilmouth | April 13, 2011 | 22:15
On Wednesday’s NBC Nightly News, chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel informed viewers that he is "worried" that a major war between some of the Arab countries and Israel could be in the not too distant future because of the "ferociously anti-Israel" sentiment of the "Arab street" that is likely to gain power in countries like Egypt. He ended up concluding: "But I think, over time, this thing ends in Jerusalem."
After host Brian Williams and Engel had discussed the likely prosecution of former Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak, and the disappointment of Libyan rebels at the level of assistance to their cause supplied by NATO, Williams posed the question: "You’re back here in New York for a few days. The question I’ve seen most people ask you: Where does this all end?"
Engel sounded more pessimistic than he did during the protests in Egypt from January and February. Engel:
This whole movement in the Middle East, and I'm worried about it because while people in the region deserve more rights and they want more rights and they're embracing more of the will of the Arab street, well, the will of the Arab street is also ferociously anti-Israel, against Israel.
He added:
And there's many people who believe that if you empower the Arab street and the Arab street wants to see a war or wants to see more justice for the Palestinians, that, down the road three to five years, this could lead to a major war with Israel. It could also force a negotiated settlement. But I think, over time, this thing ends in Jerusalem.
By contrast, on the February 8 Nightly News, Engel seemed to downplay possible dangers posed by a regime change as Williams asked him about the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood:
The group has about 20 to 40 percent support in the country. It’s not al-Qaeda, it’s not the Taliban. They do support Islamic law, but the people who are members of the Muslim Brotherhood wear business suits. It’s much more similar to, it’s much more akin to Hamas in the Gaza Strip. It’s anti-American, it’s anti-Israel, but it wouldn’t kick all the Christians out of this country, but it would definitely take a more anti-American line.

[TJ347]

While the country eyes possible Muslim extremists, the Church of Jesus Christ Christian continues recruiting potential Tim McVeighs... Yet do we lump all Christians in with the Aryan Nation? As was already said, fanaticism knows no bounds, religious, ethnic or otherwise.

[Stavros]

I am not sure that the short-to-medium term situation is clear enough to make such a huge assumption about the trajectory of 'popular opinion' in the Arab world. One of the driving forces in this 'Arab Spring' has been propelled by young people who have become frustrated to the point of combustion with decades of corruption and governmental incompetence that has passed them by. And we are not just dealing with a fringe element, across the Middle East something like 40% of the population is under the age of 30 or thereabouts, and the Arabs are more focused on putting their own place in order than 'dealing with Israel'. Popular opinion will veer against Israel because in the Arab world they have a diet of documentary footage of Israeli 'atrocities' to call on, but the truth is that most Arabs don't know the reality of life in Israel anymore than Israeli's have a clue of what life is like in most of their neighbours -yet the irony is that a large % of Arabs (and also Iranians) are culturally on the same wave length as their Israeli contemporaries -they watch the same films, listen to the same music, share networking accounts on Facebook and are showing as much disenchantment with radical Islam as their Muslim contemporaries in the West. Yes, there will always be hardliners, and these are the people who are reported more often than boring teenagers who are playing computer games and listening to Justin Bieber or Beyonce or whoever.

I take an optimistic view of the next generation -right now they are trying to remove the obstacles to the future, that is where the real problem lies.

[thombergeron]

Afterwards celebrations took place in the streets and people passed out candy. Surely you've heard this story....right?

Yep. Remember when a bunch of Jews celebrated Baruch Goldstein shooting up a mosque full of people praying? Killed 29 people and wounded over 120 others?

Hundreds of Jews Gather To Honor Hebron Killer

Of course, by your standard, this means that all Jews everywhere and forever are in favor of gunning down praying people.