The FAST Approaching Gun Ban

[Stavros]

I was alerted by something in this paragraph to an aspect of 'gun control' that I had not been aware of before:

A plan by President Barack Obama to close a loophole which allows Americans to buy weapons such as machine guns, grenades and sawn-off shotguns without undergoing background checks is set to be delayed, due to intense opposition from the NRA and other anti-gun-control activists.

Grenades? Is this real? For self-defence? So if someone breaks into your house are you going to pull out a hand grenade and say 'Leave my house or I pull the pin'??

The article makes much of 'gun trusts' so that
individuals [becoming members of]... so-called “gun trusts” can currently take ownership of weapons regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) without providing identifying information when registering the items with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nra-opposition

[notdrunk]

Jesus Christ. Is there no end to the stupidity and arrogance of these people? Does anyone outside the armed forces actually NEED a fucking machine gun?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nra-opposition

You don't NEED a lot of things that also affect life but they are legal. Individuals owning NFA items are a small minority in the gun community. I see the main sticking point is that it adds Chief Law Enforcement Officers (i.e., CLEOs) to the process. Currently, if an individual tries to obtain a NFA item without being apart of a trust, the CLEO has to sign off on Form 4. The problem is that a CLEO can have biases (e.g., political and personal reasons) that would cause them to not sign off on Form 4. You can do everything else successful in the process; however, the CLEO can simply say "no" without a reason under the proposed rule. It causes a de facto ban in some jurisdictions for something that is legal.

Then again, do you see rampant crime committed by NFA items? No. Why? The process of obtaining a NFA item can be tedious and long. As well, the cost to obtain them is high. For example, the cost of owning a full-auto M16 can costs upwards of $20,000. M249? Good luck finding a transferable one. If you do find one, the cost may be of a small to medium house.

[AlexisDVyne]

I was alerted by something in this paragraph to an aspect of 'gun control' that I had not been aware of before:

A plan by President Barack Obama to close a loophole which allows Americans to buy weapons such as machine guns, grenades and sawn-off shotguns without undergoing background checks is set to be delayed, due to intense opposition from the NRA and other anti-gun-control activists.

Grenades? Is this real? For self-defence? So if someone breaks into your house are you going to pull out a hand grenade and say 'Leave my house or I pull the pin'??

The article makes much of 'gun trusts' so that
individuals [becoming members of]... so-called “gun trusts” can currently take ownership of weapons regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) without providing identifying information when registering the items with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nra-opposition

Think of it this way..

Hundreds of groups and thousands of individuals in america have been stockpiling these and other weapons like bazookas, RPG's etc..

They're all waiting for when SHTF (shit hits the fan)

If SHTF will you want to be without guns and body armor?

In a SHTF situation I would very much like to have a hand full of grenades and a couple disposable bazookas.. lol..

I think everyone should know how to use a firearm safely.. When the day comes that you have to use a gun.. it's not the time to learn how..

Every responsible individual should be allowed to own firearms.. here in Canada we can't own automatics.. certainly not grenades or many types of modified guns.. But after you take a couple courses you can get longarms and handguns as well as various semi-auto assault rifles..

I think background checks should be mandatory for gun licencing to help prevent whacko's from buying guns.. Firearms don't kill people.. people kill people..

My Zombie Apocalypse Gun.. Hatsan ESCORT MPA-TS Semi-Auto 12 Gauge.. I like the name and it's sexy.. Wicked kick tho with 00 buck.. lol..

[bobvela]

Hundreds of groups and thousands of individuals in america have been stockpiling these and other weapons like bazookas, RPG's etc..

Citation please... and do try to note the sources of such things... as well is if the 'stockpiling' has been legal as things like 'bazookas, RPG's etc' generally require an ATF sign off.

here in Canada we can't own automatics

Define 'automatics'.

Do you mean fully automatic weapons?

If so, while legal to own down here in the states, the costs of acquiring one are beyond the means of most normal people (aside from the 9-12 month approve after your check for the $200 tax stamp has been cashed), the supply of fully automatic weapons that is available to the civilian population has slowly been decreasing since the passage of the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986, now often commanding $20k-$30k for a weapon functionally identical to something your local Police Department can buy for ~$600.

[bobvela]

Jesus Christ. Is there no end to the stupidity and arrogance of these people? Does anyone outside the armed forces actually NEED a fucking machine gun?

Remind me... the first tend amendments to the US Constitution... what do we call those again? That's right! They aren't the 'bill of needs', they're the 'bill of rights'.

You are free to say "so and so doesn't need X, Y or Z" all you want, fear though that others push a similar view against your own life.

[bobvela]

I was alerted by something in this paragraph to an aspect of 'gun control' that I had not been aware of before:

A plan by President Barack Obama to close a loophole which allows Americans to buy weapons such as machine guns, grenades and sawn-off shotguns without undergoing background checks is set to be delayed, due to intense opposition from the NRA and other anti-gun-control activists.

Stop for a moment and recall that most 'loopholes' are already aspects of the law which have likely existed for quite some time and only now have reached your awareness because enough people in the awareness of the reporter (already a detached viewer) have been for quite some time been 'exploiting' it... then ask yourself... "Has this loophole really been a problem?"

Grenades? Is this real? For self-defence? So if someone breaks into your house are you going to pull out a hand grenade and say 'Leave my house or I pull the pin'??

Like all NFA items, the tracking of ownership of lawfully constructed/transferred items is quite carefully tracked (usually involving nearly a year waiting period for the average civilian).

'Grenades' are generally not something that are commonly available in the civilian market (where unlike firearms, when used are no longer able to be used again), though are classified in the 'destructive devices' category of the NFA for tax purposes.

I'd be more worried about flame throwers... which are far easier to build & acquire lawfully than grenades.

The article makes much of 'gun trusts' so that
individuals [becoming members of]... so-called “gun trusts” can currently take ownership of weapons regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) without providing identifying information when registering the items with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nra-opposition

That's not fully accurate... and I say that as a person who controls a gun trust which controls several NFA items.

Normally to acquire an NFA item (as an individual) the signature of your local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) is required and a fingerprint card sent off to the ATF... which can be a problem if your local CLEO refuses to sign off, or if you want a little more freedom with your NFA device... such as being able to hand it to a friend while at the local range to try (the $200 transfer tax for suppressor, SBR, SBS, DD, AoW, & automatic weapons is for 'transfers'... which depending on the mood of your local LEO, would include you handing something to a friend standing 5 feet away from you to use while you watch).

Gun trusts create a predictable level of freedom where the trust owns all such items and a very limited # of owners of the trust (identified by name and signature) each time the trust adds or disposes of an item from it's rolls when submitted to the ATF (yes, a full copy of the trust and the NFA items it owns is sent EACH TIME a new NFA item is added)).

While this not only bypasses the need for a CLEO to sign off, but also removes the necessity for a fingerprint card, but also allows for the temporary addition & removal of a temporary trustee should you wish to temporarily 'transfer' an item to someone for a limited period of time... such as you being at the range with them and wanting to let them try out your suppressor, SBR, SBS, DD, AOW, or automatic weapon... which otherwise would require a $200 tax payment and a stamp being returned to you in 12 months (given the current wait time)... of course when they hand it back, you've a similar issue ($200 & a good long time to wait for the tax stamp).

[Prospero]

Leaping through hoops to justify their sick obsession... the legalese of the last few posts is nauseating. The death of a teenage girl in Chicago at the weekend shot by another teenage girl in a row over a boy - speaks louder to basic humanity than all your weasel words of the rights to keep your murderous weapons. Oh ...and there were more than 200 gun deaths in Chicago in the past few days. Yep gangs to quite an extent - but plenty of others caught in the crossfire. Without such a torrent of weaponry this would not have happened on this scale.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.1773215

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ce-nine-killed

Yep - I know i'm a Brit where we don't allow weaponry like this because we don't have the idiotic element of your constitution composed at a time when there was a genuine need for this to resist the threat of British power. Nowadays it is just a rich and deep evil in your culture.

The events still unfolding in Nevada offer further evidence of the streak of insanity in the US body politic.

[Prospero]

I wonder about certain people who post on HA... bobvela has 124 posts. Virtually all of them are about guns. (a handful of his earliest posts are about girls) I wonder if he is here for the real topic of the forum or if he is simply here to argue the NRA case. C'mn Bob... come clean. You are I see a self confessed Tea Prty supporter. But are you actually interested in Tgirls. If not why not go publish your offensive gun drivel elsewhere.

[Stavros]

Think of it this way..

Hundreds of groups and thousands of individuals in america have been stockpiling these and other weapons like bazookas, RPG's etc..

They're all waiting for when SHTF (shit hits the fan)

If SHTF will you want to be without guns and body armor?

But how will you know when that day has come when the SHTF? For some Americans, that day came when Obama was elected President. It is not like The War of the Worlds (which was on tv last night), where you will see giant zombies stalking the land. On the other hand, guns play a role in the mythology of America like the pilgrims and the pioneers and the sense some people may have of being isolated in a large country threatened by outsiders. But in this day and age, that is an awful lot of ironware begging to be abused....

[Stavros]

Stop for a moment and recall that most 'loopholes' are already aspects of the law which have likely existed for quite some time and only now have reached your awareness because enough people in the awareness of the reporter (already a detached viewer) have been for quite some time been 'exploiting' it... then ask yourself... "Has this loophole really been a problem?"

Like all NFA items, the tracking of ownership of lawfully constructed/transferred items is quite carefully tracked (usually involving nearly a year waiting period for the average civilian).

'Grenades' are generally not something that are commonly available in the civilian market (where unlike firearms, when used are no longer able to be used again), though are classified in the 'destructive devices' category of the NFA for tax purposes.

I'd be more worried about flame throwers... which are far easier to build & acquire lawfully than grenades.

That's not fully accurate... and I say that as a person who controls a gun trust which controls several NFA items.

Normally to acquire an NFA item (as an individual) the signature of your local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) is required and a fingerprint card sent off to the ATF... which can be a problem if your local CLEO refuses to sign off, or if you want a little more freedom with your NFA device... such as being able to hand it to a friend while at the local range to try (the $200 transfer tax for suppressor, SBR, SBS, DD, AoW, & automatic weapons is for 'transfers'... which depending on the mood of your local LEO, would include you handing something to a friend standing 5 feet away from you to use while you watch).

Gun trusts create a predictable level of freedom where the trust owns all such items and a very limited # of owners of the trust (identified by name and signature) each time the trust adds or disposes of an item from it's rolls when submitted to the ATF (yes, a full copy of the trust and the NFA items it owns is sent EACH TIME a new NFA item is added)).

While this not only bypasses the need for a CLEO to sign off, but also removes the necessity for a fingerprint card, but also allows for the temporary addition & removal of a temporary trustee should you wish to temporarily 'transfer' an item to someone for a limited period of time... such as you being at the range with them and wanting to let them try out your suppressor, SBR, SBS, DD, AOW, or automatic weapon... which otherwise would require a $200 tax payment and a stamp being returned to you in 12 months (given the current wait time)... of course when they hand it back, you've a similar issue ($200 & a good long time to wait for the tax stamp).

You clearly have a lot of detailed knowledge of how your system -or systems- work, given that the rules seem to differ from state to state. I did post something a long time ago to point out how gun control had changed since the Civil War and how when the earlier attempts to control gun ownership were introduced, it was generated by a fear, or panic that freed slaves would have access to firearms and that the consequences of that would be catastrophic. Again, there was a time when the NRA was a leading promoter of gun control, and it was I believe during the Reagan Presidency that the NRA became more 'libertarian', although I believe it was during Reagan's tenure as Governor of California that stricter rules on the ownership of firearms were introduced in that state.

One small detail, that notdrunk alluded to in his post earlier strikes a chord -the right of a CLEO to refuse a licence to someone for who knows what reason. Can we assume that if a Black American, your equal, applies to join a Gun Trust, or applies individually through a CLEO to own a weapon, it will be given the same degree of thought that would be given to his fellow Americans? I am not persuaded that the 'checks and balances' you provide are always going to ensure that firearms do not fall into the wrong hands.

As I have said before, most Americans who own firearms must be trustworthy or your death roll would be far higher; but there are still too many people with mental health problems, politically motivated extremists, and others who, suddenly, go be berserk who have access to weapons. To combat the irrational element you need more gun control, but to seriously improve gun control, I think you need a different culture. Guns, and violence, are part of (but not the only part) American culture, that is at the root of the problem.

Now people can make their own drones, so how long will it be before someone sticks a bomb on one and sends it over to a target to make the news?

And I don't share Prospero's 'holier than thou' attitude as we have gun nuts in the UK and have had our share of mass killings, be it Dunblane, Hungerford, or smaller incidents like Raoul Moat or the man in Leicester who was given back guns the police had taken away from him at one time, which he then used to annihilate his family. Not to mention crime -the riots in London in 2011 were sparked by the shooting dead of a gangster who, the police allege, had picked up a gun on his way to commit a revenge shooting. We are not immune.