Climate change could mean the extinction of our species

[Prospero]

And lo, as the end times draw into view, otherwise sensible people start to talk total nonsense in a place where a serious issue was once being debated.

[trish]

If there are 13 people in a room, twelve of them are eying the tranny. And you've got twelve different judgements. Are any of them correct?

On a given day, in the same hour, twelve different people with meter sticks are asked to judge my height as accurately as they can. In increasing order their judgments (in meters) are 1.6751, 1.6752, 1.6753, 1.6753, 1.6754, 1.6755, 1.6756, 1.6756, 1.6757, 1.6758, 1.6759, 1.9203. Twelve judgements, most of them different. Except for an obvious outlier they are all within one millimeter of each other. Are any of them correct? All depends on whether accuracy to within one millimeter serves the purposes of your inquiry. If you ask them to judge whether or not I'm a woman, I would ask the purpose of your inquiry. If, say, you wish to court me, you have to regard yourself as male, straight and accept me as I am. If your purpose is to put to death all transgender weirdos, then you're going to need restrain me.

We got on this sidetrack examining the issue of how capitalism binds one's purposes to the immediate moment and the near future. Libertarians tell us how free markets seek an equilibrium that fairly optimizes everyone's freedom, opportunity and well being. If everyone looks out for himself, everyone will be looked after. Of course this leaves out anyone who is not here yet (future generations) to look after their opportunity and well-being. Unregulated systems (like free markets) seek local equilibria which are not necessarily optimal points of stability. Every steam engine needs a governor, every market needs regulation. We need to regulate the output of greenhouse gasses before it's too late. We need to get serious about regulating against spills in our oceans, bays and waterways, before it's too late.

The invisible hand of the market has no eyes. Theoretically it feels around, judging the slope in each direction and takes a step in the direction that optimizes profits (good luck getting a solid handle on exactly what "optimizing profits" means). In this way it may find a nearby equilibrium and stay there for awhile, but it never looks beyond the immediate range of hills and valleys. It's just a hand. It has no eyes. But what about the humans who operate all this financial and economic machinery? Don't they have eyes? And if they don't give a shit about the future are we not to judge them? If we don't pressure them and pressure our government to pressure them, are we not to judge ourselves?

[buttslinger]

And lo, as the end times draw into view, otherwise sensible people start to talk total nonsense in a place where a serious issue was once being debated.

Hey, butt out, LIMEY, I'm trying to give Trish some RELIGION here!!!

ha ha, yeah, I took this thread way off point, but let me say one last thing then I'll butt out, when it comes to JUDGING, or POLITICS, it is wise to keep a firm yet relaxed grip on the reins. This goes double if you are the one holding the reins and someone is trying to knock you off the horse.

If you truly want to save the planet, you have to either come up with a couple trillion dollars on your own, or you have to convince somebody else to part with their hard earned coin. Divert cash from welfare, defense, social security, education, it's a JUDGEMENT call. It goes to the HEART of the matter, when does one person impose his will on another? Am I my brother's keeper?

I'm very content to pay my damn taxes and let a panel of brainiac whizz kids decide how to cut up my donation. Is that snippy upstart Trish trying to say she's wiser than Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas when it comes to allowing people to spend THEIR money anywhere they like???
No, luckily that's a job for his eight peers.

OK, Prospero, youre right as usual, but I honestly doubt anything we say here will change anything when it comes to Climate Change. The Polluters know exactly what they're doing. They know they're going to lose in the end, they're just getting money while the getting is good. Even the tree-huggers might turn down assistance from "THE HUNG ANGELS" coalition.

This forum is just about opening some eyes, that's all.....folks.

[trish]

Am I my brother's keeper?

As long as we're talking RELIGION, I believe Jesus's answer to this question is a YES, YOU ARE.

Is that snippy upstart Trish trying to say she's wiser than Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas

No one has to try to say that, it's a given that most of us are wiser than Clarence Thomas. Thank GOD there are eight other Supremes. Too bad that three of those are activists who's vision is stymied by goggles of ideology.

I honestly doubt anything we say here will change anything when it comes to Climate Change.

You're discounting chaos. A butterfly's wings can call up a windstorm.

[martin48]

On a given day, in the same hour, twelve different people with meter sticks are asked to judge my height as accurately as they can. In increasing order their judgments (in meters) are 1.6751, 1.6752, 1.6753, 1.6753, 1.6754, 1.6755, 1.6756, 1.6756, 1.6757, 1.6758, 1.6759, 1.9203. Twelve judgements, most of them different. Except for an obvious outlier they are all within one millimeter of each other. Are any of them correct? All depends on whether accuracy to within one millimeter serves the purposes of your inquiry. If you ask them to judge whether or not I'm a woman, I would ask the purpose of your inquiry. If, say, you wish to court me, you have to regard yourself as male, straight and accept me as I am. If your purpose is to put to death all transgender weirdos, then you're going to need restrain me.

I'm impressed that they attempted to estimate to within 100 micron (that's 4 thou in the US)

We got on this sidetrack examining the issue of how capitalism binds one's purposes to the immediate moment and the near future. Libertarians tell us how free markets seek an equilibrium that fairly optimizes everyone's freedom, opportunity and well being. If everyone looks out for himself, everyone will be looked after. Of course this leaves out anyone who is not here yet (future generations) to look after their opportunity and well-being. Unregulated systems (like free markets) seek local equilibria which are not necessarily optimal points of stability. Every steam engine needs a governor, every market needs regulation. We need to regulate the output of greenhouse gasses before it's too late. We need to get serious about regulating against spills in our oceans, bays and waterways, before it's too late.

Most systems (because of limited resources) are mean-reverting. No separate governor as on steam engines.

The invisible hand of the market has no eyes. Theoretically it feels around, judging the slope in each direction and takes a step in the direction that optimizes profits (good luck getting a solid handle on exactly what "optimizing profits" means). In this way it may find a nearby equilibrium and stay there for awhile, but it never looks beyond the immediate range of hills and valleys. It's just a hand. It has no eyes. But what about the humans who operate all this financial and economic machinery? Don't they have eyes? And if they don't give a shit about the future are we not to judge them? If we don't pressure them and pressure our government to pressure them, are we not to judge ourselves?

Markets, like evolution, are blind.

[trish]

I'm impressed that they attempted to estimate to within 100 micron (that's 4 thou in the US)

Well, they are fictional characters

Most systems (because of limited resources) are mean-reverting. No separate governor as on steam engines.

I stand corrected. Or kneeling if you prefer.

Markets, like evolution, are blind.

Exactly. We agree on the crucial point.

Apparently some among us prefer to govern blind as well.

The analogy to evolution is apt, yet often libertarians will even bring up survival of the fittest as if that concept vindicates free market idiot-ology. Too often the lay population fails to realize that evolution is not the unfolding of a story of progress, but simply the blind zigs and zags of self-reproducing populations responding to immediate selection pressures.

[dderek123]

It's a wind turbine but better!

[buttslinger]

OK, here's my shot at getting the last word over Trish.

Will Climate Change mean the extinction of our species?

Some Paleontologist found a cockroach that was 49 million years old, they named it after him. There will still be cockroaches 50 million years from now, but no humans, too many moving parts. We are designed to die. By Nature.
Nature has a way of correcting itself, nature always balances the books, and I am of the mind that if you think it's bad, it's worse.

The USA is one California earthquake away from complete financial disaster. Totaled.

In 1614 North America was a pristine Eden.
What do you honestly think 2414 is going to look like?

Don't worry about the Planet, it will be here in 49 million years. It might be glowing rock, but it will be here.

[trish]

OK, here's my shot at getting the last word over Trish.

Will Climate Change mean the extinction of our species?

Some Paleontologist found a cockroach that was 49 million years old, they named it after him. There will still be cockroaches 50 million years from now, but no humans, too many moving parts. We are designed to die. By Nature.
Nature has a way of correcting itself, nature always balances the books, and I am of the mind that if you think it's bad, it's worse.

The USA is one California earthquake away from complete financial disaster. Totaled.

In 1614 North America was a pristine Eden.
What do you honestly think 2414 is going to look like?

Don't worry about the Planet, it will be here in 49 million years. It might be glowing rock, but it will be here.

It might be a glowing rock. It might be home to a thriving civilization of our humanoid descendants who are grateful we stepped back from the cliffs of extinction. Pessimism is not an excuse for bad action.

[trish]

But look, no one's asking that we plan forty nine million years in advance. Certainly, if we play our cards right we shouldn't go extinct within the next century...and yet we have the capacity on that timescale to make life for humans pretty terrible if we don't play our cards right.