Trouble in Dubai!!!

[Stavros]

Come on, Stavros. It's all about proportion and degree.
The West may not have perfect political systems and protections for human rights, but to compare them to Dubai and UAE, hell the ME in general, is disingenuous.

The UK is still trying to sort out its policies for dealing with foreign gestated, ideologically driven, radical religious terrorism. The treatment of of terrorists in the UK and US in not the same treatment a random person processed through the legal system in these countries receives.

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a foreign traveler to feel 'less free' in a country like Dubai.

Although I agree with most of your post, the point would be that no country should be immune from general standards of judgement, so that while Dubai and the UK are quite different -as indeed is Dubai compared to North Korea- on principle this does not exempt the UK from criticism. And you should not underestimate how bad the experience of Tony Blair's government on the matter of human rights has been, as we are still living with the consequences.

[fivekatz]

Just as a personal aside whether its Columbia, Panama, the USV's or Dubbai the different souls marching into the country get a tougher look at embarkation and little rope if involved in a police action.

[robertlouis]

It isn't directly about human rights, nor is it about Dubai, but it's a documented fact that almost 400 workers from Nepal alone have died in Qatar while working on the infrastructure for the football World Cup Finals in 2022 in the last two years. Whether it's minimal attention to health and safety checks or a general failure to value non-Qatari human life that is, quite simply, a scandal.

And any attempt to compare human rights abuses in the middle east with those in the UK or the US is disingenuous at best and knowingly cynical at worst. There is no real comparison; human rights are, or should be, absolute, and any implication that developed countries should somehow "know better" misses the point entirely.

And when I mentioned Coca Cola in the context of the Sochi Winter Olympics I shouldn't have bothered with the word "gay" on cans or bottles. The main issue is the visible complicity of the company in the restraining of protesters against Putin's persecution of LGBT people; it's perfectly clear that their commercial interests as a sponsor are far more important than human rights in the host country.

[Prospero]

It is somewhat clumsy to draw direct lines of comparisons between the human rights situation across different countries and types of political and social regimes .

It is surely better to discuss the particular issues regarding each country or at the very least grouping of countries,.

So for instance the upsurge of the religious orthodoxy in Russia since the collapse of communism plays a significant role in the regime's deepening persecution of gay, lesbian and transgendered people. Extrapolating from that might be valuable from that to look at the discrimination incarnate among othr major faiths such as islam and Western Christianity. But when looking at this you need also to dig deeper in understanding the cultural as well as religious roots for certain behaviours and beiefs (as in Africs for instance, much of which is in the grip of vicious anti gay fervour).

Equally the treatment of migrant workers across the Gulf is an issue of serious human rights concern. But to label even different Gulf States (the KSA or the UAE) as identically repressive is a mistake. The overall domination of public life by the Wahabist tradition of islam in the KSA makes it the least liberal of Sheikhdoms or Kingdoms in the region. Dubai, for all its array of human rights violations is among the most liberal. Others Emirates within the UAE such as the fervently religiously conservative emirate of Sharjah (heavily funded by the KSA) are much more illiberal but attract virtually no international attention. Dubai is more liberal than the dominant economic emirate of Abu Dhabi. Dubai welcomes different types of migrant workers. Europeans and Americans in finance, high tech and other high end areas of work thrive in the Emirates. They enjoy a very omfortable and tax free status because of theirnvalue to the Emiratis. At the other end of the scale are the migrant workers, often housed in appalling conditions in camps. Most DO come to the UAE voluntarily as has been observed to send money home. But the conditions they meet are appalling and many are, indeed trapped and badly mistreated. The same is widely but not universally true of the domestic staff - primarily but not exclusively filipino - who work there.

Regarding the autocracy of the political system it is actually rather more complicated - with the Emiratis genuinely beleiving that their system derives from the old tribal system of the Majlis where every member of the tribal society has access to the ruler via the open house of the Majlis. This is an old form of forum where ordinary people sit with the Sheikhs to debate and discuss issues as wide ranging as family problems to economic issues. However since the creation of the UAE by Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan al Nahayan (of Abu Dhabi) and Sheikh Rashid al Maktoum (of Dubai) the government of the nation has been dominated by these two ruling tribal dynasties with a constituent assembly that comprises representatives from the other five Emirates plus some elected members). The UAE has promised universal suffrage within the next five years. But compared to the dictatorships of Syria, Iraq under Saddam or Libya under Gaddafi, the UAE is in many ways a very liberal society

[Castor_Troy05]

Doesn't surprise me about Dubai, also know a few Filipina girls that are keen to go there for money as it's portrayed very positively there.

Curious about the obvious reasons Stavros alluded to regarding a Filipina TS not wanting to go to Australia

[Stavros]

It is somewhat clumsy to draw direct lines of comparisons between the human rights situation across different countries and types of political and social regimes .

It is surely better to discuss the particular issues regarding each country or at the very least grouping of countries,.

So for instance the upsurge of the religious orthodoxy in Russia since the collapse of communism plays a significant role in the regime's deepening persecution of gay, lesbian and transgendered people. Extrapolating from that might be valuable from that to look at the discrimination incarnate among othr major faiths such as islam and Western Christianity. But when looking at this you need also to dig deeper in understanding the cultural as well as religious roots for certain behaviours and beiefs (as in Africs for instance, much of which is in the grip of vicious anti gay fervour).

Equally the treatment of migrant workers across the Gulf is an issue of serious human rights concern. But to label even different Gulf States (the KSA or the UAE) as identically repressive is a mistake. The overall domination of public life by the Wahabist tradition of islam in the KSA makes it the least liberal of Sheikhdoms or Kingdoms in the region. Dubai, for all its array of human rights violations is among the most liberal. Others Emirates within the UAE such as the fervently religiously conservative emirate of Sharjah (heavily funded by the KSA) are much more illiberal but attract virtually no international attention. Dubai is more liberal than the dominant economic emirate of Abu Dhabi. Dubai welcomes different types of migrant workers. Europeans and Americans in finance, high tech and other high end areas of work thrive in the Emirates. They enjoy a very omfortable and tax free status because of theirnvalue to the Emiratis. At the other end of the scale are the migrant workers, often housed in appalling conditions in camps. Most DO come to the UAE voluntarily as has been observed to send money home. But the conditions they meet are appalling and many are, indeed trapped and badly mistreated. The same is widely but not universally true of the domestic staff - primarily but not exclusively filipino - who work there.

Regarding the autocracy of the political system it is actually rather more complicated - with the Emiratis genuinely beleiving that their system derives from the old tribal system of the Majlis where every member of the tribal society has access to the ruler via the open house of the Majlis. This is an old form of forum where ordinary people sit with the Sheikhs to debate and discuss issues as wide ranging as family problems to economic issues. However since the creation of the UAE by Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan al Nahayan (of Abu Dhabi) and Sheikh Rashid al Maktoum (of Dubai) the government of the nation has been dominated by these two ruling tribal dynasties with a constituent assembly that comprises representatives from the other five Emirates plus some elected members). The UAE has promised universal suffrage within the next five years. But compared to the dictatorships of Syria, Iraq under Saddam or Libya under Gaddafi, the UAE is in many ways a very liberal society

Fair points, but one of the issues Miranda raised is whether or not by going on holiday to a country with an poor human rights record means you are thereby endorsing it -you have been to plenty of countries with varying records on this, and presumably not just for work: what is your view on this?

[Stavros]

Doesn't surprise me about Dubai, also know a few Filipina girls that are keen to go there for money as it's portrayed very positively there.

Curious about the obvious reasons Stavros alluded to regarding a Filipina TS not wanting to go to Australia

Best that I not elaborate on it, even though I could understand her reasons. I don't know Australia myself and the difficulties I have had with the Australians I have worked with doesn't help either; there are millions of Australians and I am sure some are human.

[trish]

Although I agree with most of your post, the point would be that no country should be immune from general standards of judgement, so that while Dubai and the UK are quite different -as indeed is Dubai compared to North Korea- on principle this does not exempt the UK from criticism. And you should not underestimate how bad the experience of Tony Blair's government on the matter of human rights has been, as we are still living with the consequences.

On a related note
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngu...cluded-middle/

[Nikka]

because money talks

[Prospero]

Interesting point Stavros. In truth I have been to many countries but few with deeply questionable human rights records except for work purposes. (China, most of the Arab world) Would I go? Probably curiosity would draw me in. I would certainly consider North Korea simply to see the extent to which I could gain a picture of it. Similarly Indonesia, Iran. But most of my holidays are taken with a view to seeing stuff rather than just resting or lying on a beach.