Goodbye

[BellaBellucci]

Miranda - yes you have been battling thru a number of peaks and valleys. It could be that you are making progress - like 3 forward, 2 back. I think you are making progress but I understand your frustration. Good luck and be brave.

I think your math skills are a little 'Rusty.' :P

2 - 3 = -1

And Miranda, I hope you find consistent progress. You have everything necessary. Sometimes it just comes down to luck, and that's a matter of timing. It's no reflection on your value as a person. Just please keep that in mind and it might make the valleys a little easier to traverse.

~BB~

[BellaBellucci]

Oh, and one more thing about CBT and mood elevators: they only work if you are interested in achieving a certain level of cognitive dissonance. I'm sorry, but in might opinion, the latter takes your shit sandwich and tries to make you happy with eating the portions of the bread that have not had contact with the shit, and the former changes your mood whether you want it to or not, leading to denial. That said, I've always preferred a temporary escape and attitude reset to living in constant delusion which can be taken advantage of by others.

Take enough Prozac and people can dump all over you and you won't feel a thing... but that doesn't protect you; it simply makes it more difficult to get upset, and to take appropriate action, providing countless opportunities for others use you, and leading to a situation in which a person can never go two steps forward, and then another two steps forward.

'Go ahead and take from (so-and-so). They don't seem to mind.'

~BB~

[broncofan]

I understand what you're saying. Although the most popular form of therapy for mood disorders has been cognitive-behavioral therapy, I was only ever interested in the cognitive dimension.

The concept behind cognitive therapy is to take unrealistically negative schemas that the depressed person believes are objectively based, and re-frame them by trying to understand how they deviate from reality. It involves engaging in a constant dialogue wherein the person asks themselves whether what they are saying to themselves is necessarily true or a belief filtered through the prism of their depression.

And some people taking SSRIs do experience something akin to emotional blunting, but not everybody. If the result of taking the medicine is emotional blunting, it is important to discuss that with a doctor, because that can be a side-effect. But often the long-term effect of being treated for depression is not that you are able to simply tolerate abuse and not see it as such, but that you can continue to function even when you are facing adverse circumstances.

[asianphoenixx]

Good. Because I wasn't being malicious. I see a real problem with many trans people where they feel entitled to flaunt their 'self-esteem.' The problem with that is: if you have to flaunt it, you're usually overcompensating and not trying to convince just others of it, but also yourself. Therefore, you probably don't have a full grasp on it yet. True self-confidence is quiet, as in 'walk softly, but carry a big stick.'

So relax! If you're truly happy with yourself, then the only one who should have to know that is you.

I totally understand that I can be hard on people, but its usually because 'nice' doesn't get my messages across, so please, don't ignore them.



Fair enough. I did mention that the men around here should be more understanding. As I said, I appreciate your sentiment; it's just that on the same token, most of the girls here have been through hell, so choosing one over another under these circumstances is counterproductive.



More friends! YAYZ! Friend request accepted.

~BB~

great!

I've been waiting for your answer Bella, and i'm glad all of us have come to a good term now.

It's partly my fault. I didn't understand Miranda's problem precisely at the beginning. I thought she had a nervous breakdown, but later i realized it's much more serious than that.

Misunderstanding happens sometimes.

Remember, i'm coming from a completely different background, carrying different value and norms than most of you guys here.

The way I encourage people might be perceived as bragging. Trust me, i don't intend to brag.

We are ALL here to support Miranda. Full stop

Unfortunately, i don't have any knowledge with regards to this subject, except my mental support.

I guess. we have to encourage Boncofan to speak and explain more about it

[asianphoenixx]

I understand what you're saying. Although the most popular form of therapy for mood disorders has been cognitive-behavioral therapy, I was only ever interested in the cognitive dimension.

The concept behind cognitive therapy is to take unrealistically negative schemas that the depressed person believes are objectively based, and re-frame them by trying to understand how they deviate from reality. It involves engaging in a constant dialogue wherein the person asks themselves whether what they are saying to themselves is necessarily true or a belief filtered through the prism of their depression.

And some people taking SSRIs do experience something akin to emotional blunting, but not everybody. If the result of taking the medicine is emotional blunting, it is important to discuss that with a doctor, because that can be a side-effect. But often the long-term effect of being treated for depression is not that you are able to simply tolerate abuse and not see it as such, but that you can continue to function even when you are facing adverse circumstances.

Thanks for the info.
I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't understand completely what you try to explain.

But my full understanding is not really important.

I personally think, we have to encourage Miranda sharing her progress daily, then some people, like yourself, can give her, hopefully a better advice?

[broncofan]

I guess. we have to encourage Boncofan to speak and explain more about it

Thanks Asianphoenixx. I read my last post and I want to be careful to state that I am talking only about things that CAN be helpful for depression and that have been helpful for me.

I don't want anyone to think I am saying ssris (or other psychiatric medicines) will always work or are always warranted. I am saying that they can be very helpful for people and it's important for anyone struggling with a mood disorder to find a good doctor to let them know if their use is warranted.

Medicines almost always have side effects. As Bella said, you may find that you don't like some of their effects and so you have to discuss with a doctor whether they are helpful on balance. I have taken medicines before and ended up having the following conversation with my doctor where I said, "yes this medicine is helping my depression but I feel it is causing cognitive slowing. I simply will not take it." And the result was that we ended up trying something different.

I am only trying to say that with a competent, trustworthy, and helpful medical professional you can find treatments that will improve quality of life whether that involves various forms of therapy or medicine.

[asianphoenixx]

Thanks Asianphoenixx. I read my last post and I want to be careful to state that I am talking only about things that CAN be helpful for depression and that have been helpful for me.

I don't want anyone to think I am saying ssris (or other psychiatric medicines) will always work or are always warranted. I am saying that they can be very helpful for people and it's important for anyone struggling with a mood disorder to find a good doctor to let them know if their use is warranted.

Medicines almost always have side effects. As Bella said, you may find that you don't like some of their effects and so you have to discuss with a doctor whether they are helpful on balance. I have taken medicines before and ended up having the following conversation with my doctor where I said, "yes this medicine is helping my depression but I feel it is causing cognitive slowing. I simply will not take it." And the result was that we ended up trying something different.

I am only trying to say that with a competent, trustworthy, and helpful medical professional you can find treatments that will improve quality of life whether that involves various forms of therapy or medicine.

great point.
Since i know nothing about this issue, i just have to highlight your point, so our discussion will be more focused, geared to solving the problem.

Now, we are waiting for Miranda response

c'mon girl...speak to us

[Odelay]

Now that things have calmed down a little, there are a couple of things that I would like to add. First, broncofan, I like what you've posted about depression, but a quick correction about this phrase...

When you are depressed you have absolutely no inertia.

BF, you have the definition of inertia reversed. When you are depressed you have all inertia. The physics definition is: a property of matter by which it continues in its existing state of rest unless that state is changed by an external force.

Please don't take this as criticism because it's an easy one to get reversed. I do it all the time with some words. Like I never remember if "non-plused" is a state of calm or a state of frustration.

And actually the term inertia is what I wanted to comment on. Inertia was the killer for me during a couple of long episodic bouts of depression. After the first bout, I got diagnosed, did the SSRI drug thing, did the cognitive therapy thing, but ultimately the only thing that got me out of it was to just keep moving, literally. Went through a series of shitty temp jobs but it was good because it forced me out of the house. Just navigating the local bus system to get to the jobs was a nightmare, when I was in that state.

The one thing I can say I got out of cognitive therapy is that after all the tedious analysis of my negative thoughts, etc., I finally made it very simple for myself. If I'm active, I'm okay. If I'm experiencing a thought that pushes me to a state of inactivity, then that's not okay. Was a gamer before depression, haven't gamed since. Never cooked a meal before depression, now I cook about twice a week. Wasn't a huge people person before depression, now I throw myself into new situations and am not shy about meeting new people. Well, you get the picture.

I had a second pretty severe episode about 7 years ago, but I ultimately had the self-knowledge to climb out of it.

My conclusion about depression is that despite common symptoms across many people who suffer from it, it remains a stubbornly unique malady from person to person. What the science world knows about brain chemistry is still orders of magnitude smaller than what they don't know about it.

[broncofan]

Thanks for that Odelay. I was using it to mean the opposite of what it means as you say. I have taken some form of anti-depressant for twenty years with a five year break in my mid-20's. The five year break was the slowest, most inert (there we go) period of my life. I still don't like going to large functions, but I will go to them if I think I should. I force myself awake in the morning for work and often put things off that require a lot of effort (cooking, cleaning, or uncomfortable phone calls).

I found the medicine made it so I was able to push myself to do some uncomfortable things.

I have also found a lot of the things you mentioned helpful, but I had to get to a certain state of being before I could do some of those things, like pushing myself to do things when I don't want to. When I was suffering the worst, I would force myself to do something and then find myself exhausted halfway through the day and wishing I could get home as quickly as possible.

As you say depression is very unique in how it manifests. Many doctors do not know the difference between atypical and melancholic depression, which can make a crucial difference in how they treat it. As Miranda was saying, doctors are often dealing with clusters of symptoms and they have to help a person figure out how best to cope with them.

[asianphoenixx]

i'm learning...

"I finally made it very simple for myself. If I'm active, I'm okay. If I'm experiencing a thought that pushes me to a state of inactivity, then that's not okay." Odelay

"I have also found a lot of the things you mentioned helpful, but I had to get to a certain state of being before I could do some of those things, like pushing myself to do things when I don't want to" Broncofan

Broncofan's conclusion: depression is very unique in how it manifests. Many doctors do not know the difference between atypical and melancholic depression, which can make a crucial difference in how they treat it. As Miranda was saying, doctors are often dealing with clusters of symptoms and they have to help a person figure out how best to cope with them.

My interpretation: Realizing that depression is unique in how it manifests, Miranda with the help from a (good) doctor, has to figure it out how and what is the best way to cope with it.

For Odelay: to stay active definitely helps. Agreed by Broncofan.
Conclusion: doing something that we like definitely helps