Male student gang raped by muslim youth

[Prospero]

Thanks Trish. A good and eloquent post (and I'm delighted you had such a good vacation). I especially like your coral metaphor. It echoes my many travels in the Arab world.

But let us not let real experience get in the way of third hand prejudice.

[Stavros]

2008? What about the incidents prior to that in other citied or the decision by police to back a call to removea documentary that highlighted street grooming, among other social ills? Thst was well before 2008.

You are referring to a documentary called Edge of the City that was due to be aired on Channel 4 in May 2004 just before local and European elections. The documentary was pulled when the police objected that it might incite 'racial violence' ahead of the elections, in which BNP candidates won some council seats in Bradford where tensions were high. There was no suggestion at the time or since that the Police were covering up systematic abuse because the police said that the investigations which had been going on for 2 years had not discovered such 'systematic abuse', which is why there were no prosecutions.

Other websites will tell you that there is a Masonic cabal of police officers whose primary concern is to protect the reputation of the police force; others will tell you that the Police force -and obviously in this case the West Yorkshire Police force- is riddled with paedophiles anyway, and many/some were 'mates' with or covered up Jimmy Savile's behaviour over the years. Yet more websites will also tell you how 'racist' the police are which makes it odd that the force that apparently loathes people from South Asia yet doesn't bend all the rules to send them to trial, and so on and so on.

I can't stop you believing what websites say, and I would caution anyone to regard documentaries as a mixture of truth and opinion, without attaching the relative percentages to either: 50/50? 30/70?

The complexity of the situation is such that with more than one causal factor in the abuse of young girls in our cities, isolating the religious or regional background of the perpetrators prevents us from seeing the problem in the whole, which is why some of us on this board continue to dispute your selective approach to this problem. This does not mean anyone should avoid the problem of grooming whoever it involves, but it does mean that when one social group is isolated for condemnation it prejudices everyone else in that group and thus causes more problems than it solves. Do all homosexuals like young boys? Are all transexuals prostitutes, porn performers and drug addicts?

[tragicomedy]

Have you seen the documentary Tragicmedy? I have watched the link you posted - or rather listened - and it sounds like a very badly made piece of work. Very sensationalist.

Have you ever been to a Muslim majority nation?

And where to you immigrate to the US from?

Of course I have, mostly in the earlier part of the last decade. Not that it matters much, when I'm referring to crimes committed against non-Muslims in Western countries. The dynamics are different for non-Muslim victims in Muslim majority countries like Egypt and even more so in Pakistan. These people already live under threat of violence not only from their neighbors but from Islamists and Muslim supremacists. They are a vulnerable minority who can't always rely on the police.


But in Western countries, the situation is much different. Yet these men engage in Muslim supremacist activities. Meaning they have a different view of the host population.


Oh and that badly made piece of work....you were watching excerpts from an interview that took place following the programs successful banning by your allies. The incidents continued to occur and the police continued to keep quiet about it.

[tragicomedy]

You are referring to a documentary called Edge of the City that was due to be aired on Channel 4 in May 2004 just before local and European elections. The documentary was pulled when the police objected that it might incite 'racial violence' ahead of the elections, in which BNP candidates won some council seats in Bradford where tensions were high. There was no suggestion at the time or since that the Police were covering up systematic abuse because the police said that the investigations which had been going on for 2 years had not discovered such 'systematic abuse', which is why there were no prosecutions.

Of course I know the name of the documentary and the backstory.

The police gave that as a partial explanation but it's also been shown that Channel 4 were pressured by UAF and other groups NOT to air the program.



Other websites will tell you that there is a Masonic cabal of police officers whose primary concern is to protect the reputation of the police force; others will tell you that the Police force -and obviously in this case the West Yorkshire Police force- is riddled with paedophiles anyway, and many/some were 'mates' with or covered up Jimmy Savile's behaviour over the years. Yet more websites will also tell you how 'racist' the police are which makes it odd that the force that apparently loathes people from South Asia yet doesn't bend all the rules to send them to trial, and so on and so on.


I can't stop you believing what websites say, and I would caution anyone to regard documentaries as a mixture of truth and opinion, without attaching the relative percentages to either: 50/50? 30/70?

The complexity of the situation is such that with more than one causal factor in the abuse of young girls in our cities, isolating the religious or regional background of the perpetrators prevents us from seeing the problem in the whole, which is why some of us on this board continue to dispute your selective approach to this problem. This does not mean anyone should avoid the problem of grooming whoever it involves, but it does mean that when one social group is isolated for condemnation it prejudices everyone else in that group and thus causes more problems than it solves. Do all homosexuals like young boys? Are all transexuals prostitutes, porn performers and drug addicts?

That group is 'isolated for condemnation' as you put it because they are 1) massively over represented 2) the only group known to routinely do it in groups both in Europe and Pakistan. Which means an element of Muslim community ambivalence as long as only non-Muslims are targeted.

[tragicomedy]

Just this year I spent a wonderful fortnight touring Morocco. I hit many (but alas not all) of the major cities: Casablanca (over 3 million people), Rabat, Fes and Marrakesh; also smaller but beautiful Meknes, Ouarzazat and Essaouira. I visited casbahs and villages on the coast, the agricultural valleys, the Atlas mountains and bordering dunes of the Sahara. The people are fascinating, friendly and engaging. I was an American woman, touring the country with friends. So of course entrepreneurs everywhere wanted to sell us their wares, but also people with no profit motive would attempt to engage us in conversation and invite us to share a cup of mint tea. I never felt afraid to go out, night or day, alone or accompanied, in the city or in the country.

The government is a parliamentarian monarchy (led by King Mohammed VI and the parliament led by Abdelilah Benkirane). Driving through the countryside one can easy see the vast irrigation projects and wells that are greening the valleys. In the rural areas public housing is available, free for any citizen who wishes to settle, work in the village, or farm the surrounding country. Many of the Berber people are finding the non-nomadic life tempting, whereas those who remain nomadic shepherds make free use the many public wells. It is not unusual to see their tents pitched by a well, and goats, sheep and donkeys grazing nearby. Each village has a public school where children (girls and boys from ages six to thirteen by law) learn the usual academic subjects: reading, writing and arithmetic.

The largest and tallest Mosque in Morocco (Grand Mosque Hassan II) is the 7th tallest in the world. It is a modern architectural feat with a roof that slides open (in suitable weather) to the sky. A convertible mosque! Though tourists (male and female) are allowed to visit and enter the mosque (neither I nor many other women tourists wore headscarves) worshipers are segregated by gender: woman in a large wooden balcony and men on the marble floor below. Islam, like Christianity, is a cultural reef of living coral built on ancient calcified remains. It’s beautiful, and it’s dangerous. Christians in the U.S. have been known to murder obstetricians for making legal abortions available to women who made the difficult choice to have them. Christian priests, frustrated by their ancient vows of celibacy, have been known to rape children. Muslim men and women too, are subject the ills of religious ignorance. But none of this was evident in my trip to Morocco. Its cities, towns and people (except for their exquisite and unique beauty) were just like cities, towns and people everywhere.

You had a nice vacation in Morocco, good for you.

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=tragicomedy;1286847]

That group is 'isolated for condemnation' as you put it because they are 1) massively over represented
--How many gangs are there in the UK? In how many gangs do young women, often under the age of 16, submit to sexual pressures, and how many are exclusively Muslim? Your argument is bogus.

2) the only group known to routinely do it in groups both in Europe and Pakistan. Which means an element of Muslim community ambivalence as long as only non-Muslims are targeted.
--Do you have evidence for the systematic, gang-organised abuse of young girls in Pakistan?

Have you ever heard of the 'Catamites' of Afghnastian, sometimes known as 'Fun Boys'? (Kandahar is famous for it).

Can you confirm that on a daily basis British/NATO troops stand around for half an hour or more while the Afghan men they are training to be soldiers and policemen get their rocks off with their 'fun boy'? The word 'systematic' seems as appropriate to Afghanistan as it does in your depictions of life in the UK and Pakistan.

[tragicomedy]

[quote=Stavros;1286874]

That group is 'isolated for condemnation' as you put it because they are 1) massively over represented
--How many gangs are there in the UK? In how many gangs do young women, often under the age of 16, submit to sexual pressures, and how many are exclusively Muslim? Your argument is bogus.

2) the only group known to routinely do it in groups both in Europe and Pakistan. Which means an element of Muslim community ambivalence as long as only non-Muslims are targeted.
--Do you have evidence for the systematic, gang-organised abuse of young girls in Pakistan?

Have you ever heard of the 'Catamites' of Afghnastian, sometimes known as 'Fun Boys'? (Kandahar is famous for it).

Can you confirm that on a daily basis British/NATO troops stand around for half an hour or more while the Afghan men they are training to be soldiers and policemen get their rocks off with their 'fun boy'? The word 'systematic' seems as appropriate to Afghanistan as it does in your depictions of life in the UK and Pakistan.

It's not bogus at all. Have you decided to look at any of the recent statistics on child sex grooming in England before declaring them bogus?

I surely have. When you look at the cases of children being trafficked by groups of men, Muslims are over represented by a large margin. But you just decided to discount them as bogus. Reactionary p.c. type that you are.

What is your point about Catamites? Seeing that you said everything I gave you before is not relevant and that I'm smearing Muslims. Go ahead and tell me why that is relevant? Where are your links by the way....I can't wait to see news that British soldiers are actually okay with them raping little boys.

Are you confusing that with a misguided portion of a recent field manual?

No of course not. Go ahead Stavros, my dear p.c. zealot. Let's see what you've got.

[tragicomedy]

http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2012/s12080160.htm
http://pakistan.onepakistan.com.pk/p...2012/120829-69
http://www.pakistanchristiancongress...?section_id=37
http://www.ibtimes.com/india-has-rap...-worse-1011268
http://tribune.com.pk/story/488993/t...irls-for-rape/


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-9-2012_pg7_25
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-...e1-925161.aspx
http://www.sparcpk.org/NNews%20-%20Nov.html#innov81
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/20...torture/998230

[tragicomedy]

http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2012/s12080160.htm
http://pakistan.onepakistan.com.pk/p...2012/120829-69
http://www.pakistanchristiancongress...?section_id=37
http://www.ibtimes.com/india-has-rap...-worse-1011268
http://tribune.com.pk/story/488993/t...irls-for-rape/


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-9-2012_pg7_25
http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-...e1-925161.aspx
http://www.humanrights.asia/resource...istan_2010.pdf
http://www.sparcpk.org/NNews%20-%20Nov.html#innov81
http://tribune.com.pk/story/483208/p...ng-hindu-girl/
http://www.fides.org/en/news/28031?i...g#.UTZY2TD_mSo
This above link is only included because of minority community commentary on how they are perceived and treated by the larger Muslim community and why they think their children are being targeted. It's not a gang rape.
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Punja...lam-22456.html
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/20...torture/998230

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/raymond...-a-case-study/

An article discussing an Islamic scholar's rationalization of these acts as modern spoils of war taken from non-Muslims.

[trish]

You had a nice vacation in Morocco, good for you.

Just thought I'd add some first hand testimony. You're welcome.