Tranny Chaser Chaser

[danthepoetman]

Well, she's sitting actually. But anyway

You know John was always presented as a very young man. The tradition had it that he was 15. And it wasn't to displease Leonardo, who has you know, was leaning pretty hard toward young men...

[danthepoetman]

Mmmmm you might want to check out the 'Mollie Houses' which existed in 18th century London. Perhaps also the description (in Burckhart and elsewhere) of the femboys who hung about the corners of Florentine streets (and whom MIchelangelo was attracted to.) These were young men presenting as closely to female as they could in an era when doing so could get you executed. In Rome, young men self-castrated in the temple of Cybele and then lived as female prostitutes, and this tradition can be traced back to the Temple of Inana in Uruk in Sumer. The Native American peoples also had transgendered people. Going the other way, George Sand (a natal woman) habitually presented as a man.

As for representation in art, the 'Morning' in Michelangelo's sculpture is clearly a man with tits, and there is an obvious femboy standing behind Jesus in da Vinci's 'last supper'==albeit one which has often been misrepresented as a woman!

Transgenderism most certainly is not a new phenomenon; yes modern medicine can make a transgendered individual very much more convincing in appearance, but the social phenomenon is as old as society.

Two things are new in addition to modern medicine: the first is that while being transgendered is still dangerous, it is no longer punishable by a judicial death sentence, at least in large parts of the world (thankfully) (sorry I'm chatting with a student as well this is a bit disjointed) Where was I? and there is greater freedom for TS/TG to present as what they are with less risk of social violence. Secondly the internet has made it possible for TS/TG to be in public while also quite anonymous and has very much strengthened the network...which just did not exist before.

These have also allowed trans-attracted men like us to come much more out into the open where once we would probably not, because we could not see how we fitted or even knew what we are--we knew we were not gay because we are attracted to women, but we had nowhere to find similar voices. Places like this, for all its faults, provide that.

(BTW I just remembered I have a ref somewhere to conquistadores finding transgendered people in Peru in the 16th c)

I now have to suppose my English is much much worst than I ever have envisioned!
I know there always were transgenderism, MacShreach! And in almost every country, everywhere in the world! I myself am partly huron Indian and I know very well about everything surrounding the berdache. I’m NOT talking about that! What I’m saying is exactly on this line: we know there has always been transvestites and surely transsexuals, but nowhere in any type of iconographic records do you ever see anyone looking as feminine as some of the young men we see today -and I don't mean t-women: men. NOWHERE! We would see it; we would have the data, the images; we would know! Nowhere in the literature do you have any mention of very credible and passable transvestites. Even in the Greek society, which was very free with homosexuality and quite free with such cases of transgenderism, the mentions we have shows how ridicule these transvestites were to the eye of people in general. Aristophanes, for instance, with one of his character in “The Thesmophorias”. In the photographic records, you can only find very few remotely passable individuals before about the 50s. And more and more and ever more since then. There’s a few representations in art, but usually, these representations obviously shows adolescents, like Verrochio’s David, for instance. On the contrary, we are told and reminded that in theatre, in the West, teenagers had to play the roles of females when women were forbidden, before somewhere in the 17th century, for the play to be realistic and enjoyable. Same thing in Japan and in the Chinese opera. In Japan men eventually replaced teens, but quite a bit closer to our time.
There is something totally new here: naturally very feminine men; biologically or physically or morphologically. It can only be a biological phenomenon.

[Jericho]

naturally very feminine men; biologically or physically or morphologically. It can only be a biological phenomenon.

I blame Glam Rock!

[danthepoetman]

I blame Glam Rock!

lol
Most definitely has something to do with it.

[danthepoetman]

One more thing you should be careful about, MacShreach, is the link you’re making between religious figures. Yes, Cybele is a fertility goddess from Turkish (today) origins, and her priests were castrating themselves. But you can’t confuse sacred prostitution with the lives of the priests, who were the gardian of the cult and not prostitutes themselves. Women were prostituting themselves around many temples in Ancient times; it doesn’t have any direct relation to the cult of Cybele. You link Cybele to the Summerian goddess Inana, but nothing seems to indicate that one came from the other. They were both fertility goddesses with very different attributes. You also linked Inana to Ishtar, somewhere else: Ishtar is the Assyrian goddess of love and war, that absorbed Inana after the conquest of Mesopotamia, and also integrated her attributes, but the second doesn’t come from the first. You even went as far as relating Cybele with Isis! The Egyptian genius was by much fertile enough to produce its own mythology, you know. Besides, Isis came from the myth of the resurrected god Osiris, who had more to do at the time with fertility and the Nile than Isis herself. The myth of Osiris and the practices related to it were in place 26 hundred years BC. In fact, Isis only became a prominent goddess much later, when Osiris was transform into Sarapis, during the hellenistic period. She then developed a large following and later on, the famous Mysteries which probably influenced the birth of Christianity, with other Mysteries cults. Yes, the places where the “black virgins” were celebrated were converted by Catholicisim into “Notre Dame” churches and the same imagery (Isis mother with the infant Horus) adopted for the Virgin Mary.
The link you finally establish between Batchura Mata and Cybele is interesting, but quite immoderate. Once again, it’s not as if the mythology of North India was not fertile enough in itself. In the case of Cybele, it’s her lover that spills his blood by castrating himself; on the contrary, Batchura Mata cuts her breasts. The obvious association is that of a bloody sacrifice to the earth, but such religious ideas were very common throughout the world: even in the Americas, long before the arrival of the Europeans! And castration was also practiced in many places around the world. The link between the two are very loose.
There. I said it. It had bothered me ever since I read it on the other thread. You obviously have good knowledge of mythology; I just didn’t want to get into such a debate. But there it is: I succumbed.

[dabaldone]

Danthepoetman, I thought I was the only nerd of transsexualsim throut history and religion. I started studying it 20+ years ago to help keep me sane with being trans-attracted. Big props to you bro!

[tsdvdman]

No their straight for the time i crossdress for them and put make up and everything , high heels!!!

LOL..yep..and if you got a big dick they will give you a rave review in the "TS" section at that..lol.SMH

[danthepoetman]

Danthepoetman, I thought I was the only nerd of transsexualsim throut history and religion. I started studying it 20+ years ago to help keep me sane with being trans-attracted. Big props to you bro!

lol Thanks, Dabaldone...

[amberskyi]

more androgyny through out history:

-greak figure aphroditus. depicted as having breast and female figure but also having a penis and beard....Aphroditus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-Donatello's bronze david is known for it androgynous and effeminate nature...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_(...e_bronze_David

-leanardo da vinci's oil painting of john the baptist stood out for its unusual portrayal of st john as androgynous and feminine...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Joh...tist_(Leonardo)

-roman historian quintus curtius rufus talks about alexander the greats eunuch lover bogoas. "Curtius maintains that Alexander also took as a lover "... Bagoas, a eunuch exceptional in beauty and in the very flower of boyhood, with whom Darius was intimate and with whom Alexander would later be intimate" (VI.5.23). "........http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/..._and_sexuality

[Dino Velvet]

I blame Glam Rock!

I remember having a Motley Crue poster up on my wall as a teen. My father was like WTF? but I told him they were just into Satan pointing at the Pentagram and not a pack o' queers. He rubbed his chin and walked away.