17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?

[zulusierra]

Both their faults? Nah don't agree.
Why I don't agree with you? ...
The blame is only on one person here and that's ZIMMERMAN!!!

I don't think you comprehend what I was saying.

That's ok.

[Stavros]

I don't know if the full honest truth about the event that night will ever be established, if only because Zimmerman has so many enemies; if he walks, the outrage will continue, the debates about the 'facts' will persist with the monotony of Dallas 1963.

But maybe the core problem is that people have seen so many episodes of some cop show where the investigating police examine a crime scene and interview witnesses and suspects, that they forget that in real life -and it seems to happen in the UK as well as the US- in real life cases the police often fail to live up to expectations; they can't get the basics right on the night, so what hope is there of justice? Witnesses are not interviewed, photos are not taken, crime scenes are washed down, specimens arrive in the lab a week or two weeks after the event, and so on and so on.

Yet for justice to be done, the police are the first professionals who get involved; a court will be presented with the evidence they collect and the jury can only make a decision on that evidence. In so many cases crap lawyers, evidence that isn't submitted to court, and sloppy police work can convict innocent people, and let the guilty go free.

Yesterday in the UK a man was released from prison for a murder he could not have committed because he was somewhere else at the time, his rock solid alibi was never presented to court. Theoretically, had there been capital punishment here, he could have gone to the gallows. In Texas, as the NYT reported a few days ago, an innocent man was executed -he bore such a strong resemblance to the man who did commit the murder that they were called twins: but where was the dna evidence that separated one from the other? On such basic pieces of evidence that never gets missed in CSI or LA Law or NYPD Blue rest not just lives, but our faith in the concept of justice as something that is real and fair. This isn't TV, its real life. If it happened once or twice, fair enough, even cops can make mistakes. But I have been reading about sloppy police work for years, and it makes me wonder if its institutional incompetence, bored policeman investigating yet another shooting, or if the 'profile' of the people involved determines the outcome....

[jamesedwards]

OH so now I don't comprehend what you were saying or said? Ok, got it!!!

I don't think you comprehend what I was saying.

That's ok.

[jamesedwards]

For me I wish Zimmerman wouldn't have gotten out of that car Trayvon may have been still alive.

I have many clippings of men that did over 15 years WRONGLY in prison, and have to get paid millions of dollars now because of what happened. It's crazy!!! DNA is getting them off. So in the US a lot of people shouldn't be behind bars.

Lawyers and this system lie also not all the time the truth prevails.

Cops lie, and steal and cheat too, I have first hand experience with them.

Yesterday in the UK a man was released from prison for a murder he could not have committed because he was somewhere else at the time, his rock solid alibi was never presented to court. Theoretically, had there been capital punishment here, he could have gone to the gallows. In Texas, as the NYT reported a few days ago, an innocent man was executed -he bore such a strong resemblance to the man who did commit the murder that they were called twins: but where was the dna evidence that separated one from the other? On such basic pieces of evidence that never gets missed in CSI or LA Law or NYPD Blue rest not just lives, but our faith in the concept of justice as something that is real and fair. This isn't TV, its real life. If it happened once or twice, fair enough, even cops can make mistakes. But I have been reading about sloppy police work for years, and it makes me wonder if its institutional incompetence, bored policeman investigating yet another shooting, or if the 'profile' of the people involved determines the outcome....

[robertlouis]

This is the Guardian article that Stavros may have been referring to. We have miscarriages of justice in the UK too. The difference is that if they are subsequently proven innocent we can release them into society. In Carlos LaLuna's case it was too late - he had already been judicially murdered by the state of Texas. It's well worth reading if you've never once paused to consider whether life imprisonment is preferable to the death penalty.

The wrong Carlos: how Texas sent an innocent man to his death

A few years ago, Antonin Scalia, one of the nine justices on the US supreme court, made a bold statement. There has not been, he said, "a single case – not one – in which it is clear that a person was executed for a crime he did not commit. If such an event had occurred … the innocent's name would be shouted from the rooftops."

Scalia may have to eat his words. It is now clear that a person was executed for a crime he did not commit, and his name – Carlos DeLuna – is being shouted from the rooftops of the Columbia Human Rights Law Review. The august journal has cleared its entire spring edition, doubling its normal size to 436 pages, to carry an extraordinary investigation by a Columbia law school professor and his students.

The book sets out in precise and shocking detail how an innocent man was sent to his death on 8 December 1989, courtesy of the state of Texas. Los Tocayos Carlos: An Anatomy of a Wrongful Execution, is based on six years of intensive detective work by Professor James Liebman and 12 students.

Starting in 2004, they meticulously chased down every possible lead in the case, interviewing more than 100 witnesses, perusing about 900 pieces of source material and poring over crime scene photographs and legal documents that, when stacked, stand over 10ft high.

What they discovered stunned even Liebman, who, as an expert in America's use of capital punishment, was well versed in its flaws. "It was a house of cards. We found that everything that could go wrong did go wrong," he says.

Carlos DeLuna was arrested, aged 20, on 4 February 1983 for the brutal murder of a young woman, Wanda Lopez. She had been stabbed once through the left breast with an 8in lock-blade buck knife which had cut an artery causing her to bleed to death.

From the moment of his arrest until the day of his death by lethal injection six years later, DeLuna consistently protested he was innocent. He went further – he said that though he hadn't committed the murder, he knew who had. He even named the culprit: a notoriously violent criminal called Carlos Hernandez.
Carlos DeLuna: crime scene Police detective Escobedo, who headed the investigation, standing on evidence at the crime scene. Within two hours, the Shamrock had been cleaned up. Photograph: Corpus Christi police department

The two Carloses were not just namesakes – or tocayos in Spanish, as referenced in the title of the Columbia book. They were the same height and weight, and looked so alike that they were sometimes mistaken for twins. When Carlos Hernandez's lawyer saw pictures of the two men, he confused one for the other, as did DeLuna's sister Rose.

At his 1983 trial, Carlos DeLuna told the jury that on the day of the murder he'd run into Hernandez, who he'd known for the previous five years. The two men, who both lived in the southern Texas town of Corpus Christi, stopped off at a bar. Hernandez went over to a gas station, the Shamrock, to buy something, and when he didn't return DeLuna went over to see what was going on.

DeLuna told the jury that he saw Hernandez inside the Shamrock wrestling with a woman behind the counter. DeLuna said he was afraid and started to run. He had his own police record for sexual assault – though he had never been known to possess or use a weapon – and he feared getting into trouble again.

"I just kept running because I was scared, you know." When he heard the sirens of police cars screeching towards the gas station he panicked and hid under a pick-up truck where, 40 minutes after the killing, he was arrested.

At the trial, DeLuna's defence team told the jury that Carlos Hernandez, not DeLuna, was the murderer. But the prosecutors ridiculed that suggestion. They told the jury that police had looked for a "Carlos Hernandez" after his name had been passed to them by DeLuna's lawyers, without success. They had concluded that Hernandez was a fabrication, a "phantom" who simply did not exist. The chief prosecutor said in summing up that Hernandez was a "figment of DeLuna's imagination".

Four years after DeLuna was executed, Liebman decided to look into the DeLuna case as part of a project he was undertaking into the fallibility of the death penalty. He asked a private investigator to spend one day – just one day – looking for signs of the elusive Carlos Hernandez.

By the end of that single day the investigator had uncovered evidence that had eluded scores of Texan police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers and judges over the six years between DeLuna's arrest and execution. Carlos Hernandez did indeed exist.

Liebman's investigator tracked down within a few hours a woman who was related to both the Carloses. She supplied Hernandez's date of birth, which in turn allowed the unlocking of Hernandez's criminal past as the case rapidly unravelled.

With the help of his students, Liebman began to piece together a profile of Hernandez. He was an alcoholic with a history of violence, who was always in the company of his trusted companion: a lock-blade buck knife.

Over the years he was arrested 39 times, 13 of them for carrying a knife, and spent his entire adult life on parole. Yet he was almost never put in prison for his crimes – a disparity that Liebman believes was because he was used as a police informant. "Its hard to understand what happened without that piece of the puzzle," Liebman says.

Several of the crimes that Hernandez committed involved hold-ups of Corpus Christi gas stations. Just a few days before the Shamrock murder he was found cowering outside a nearby 7-Eleven wielding a knife – a detail never disclosed to DeLuna's defence.

He also had a history of violence towards women. He was twice arrested on suspicion of the 1979 murder of a woman called Dahlia Sauceda, who was stabbed and then had an "X" carved into her back. The first arrest was made four years before DeLuna's trial and the second while DeLuna was on death row, yet the connection between this Hernandez and the "phantom" presented to DeLuna's jury was never made.

In October 1989, just two months before DeLuna was executed, Hernandez was setenced to 10 years' imprisonment for attempting to kill with a knife another woman called Dina Ybanez. Even then, no one thought to alert the courts or Texas state as it prepared to put DeLuna to death.

Hernandez himself frequently told people that he was a knife murderer. He made numerous confessions to having killed Wanda Lopez, the crime for which DeLuna was executed, joking with friends and relatives that his "tocayo" had taken the fall. His admissions were so widely broadcast that even Corpus Christi police detectives came to hear about them within weeks of the incident at the Shamrock gas station.

Yet this was the same Carlos Hernandez who prosecutors told the jury did not exist. This was the figment of Carlos DeLuna's imagination.
Carlos DeLuna mugshot Carlos DeLuna: Photograph: Corpus Christi police department

Many other glaring discrepancies also stand out in the DeLuna case. He was put on death row largely on the eyewitness testimony of one man, Kevan Baker, who had seen the fight inside the Shamrock and watched the attacker flee the scene.

Yet when Baker was interviewed 20 years later, he said that he hadn't been that sure about the identification as he had trouble telling one Hispanic person apart from another.

Then there was the crime-scene investigation. Detectives failed to carry out or bungled basic forensic procedures that might have revealed information about the killer. No blood samples were collected and tested for the culprit's blood type.

Fingerprinting was so badly handled that no useable fingerprints were taken. None of the items found on the floor of the Shamrock – a cigarette stub, chewing gum, a button, comb and beer cans – were forensically examined for saliva or blood.

There was no scraping of the victim's fingernails for traces of the attacker's skin. When Liebman and his students studied digitally enhanced copies of crime scene photographs, they were amazed to find the footprint from a man's shoe imprinted in a pool of Lopez's blood on the floor – yet no effort was made to measure it.

"There it was," says Liebman. "The murderer had left his calling card at the scene, but it was never used."

Even the murder weapon, the knife, was not properly examined, though it was covered in blood and flesh.

Other photographs show Lopez's blood splattered up to three feet high on the walls of the Shamrock counter. Yet when DeLuna's clothes and shoes were tested for traces of blood, not a single microscopic drop was found. The prosecution said it must have been washed away by the rain.

There appeared to have been an unseemly scramble to wrap up the crime scene. Less than two hours after the murder happened, the police chief in charge of the homicide investigation ordered all detectives to quit the Shamrock and allowed its owner to wash it down, sweeping away vital evidence that could have saved a man's life.

The exceptionally lax treatment of evidence continued even beyond the grave. When Liebman asked to see all the stored evidence in the case, so that he could subject it to the DNA testing that was not available to investigators in 1983, he was told that it had all disappeared.

Having lived and breathed this case for so many years, Liebman says the most shocking thing about it was its ordinariness. "This wasn't the trial of OJ Simpson. It was an obscure case, the kind that could involve anybody. Maybe those are the cases where miscarriages of justice happen, the routine everyday cases where nobody thinks enough about the victim, let alone the defendant."

The groundbreaking work that the Columbia law school has done comes at an important juncture for the death penalty in America. Connecticut last month became the fifth state in as many years to repeal the ultimate punishment and support for abolition is gathering steam.

In that context, Liebman hopes his exhaustive work will encourage Americans to think more deeply about what is done in their name. All the evidence the Columbia team has gathered on the DeLuna case has been placed on the internet with open public access.

"We've provided as complete a set of information as we can about a pretty average case, to let the public make its own judgment. I believe they will make the judgment that in this kind of case there's just too much risk."

As for the tocayos Carloses, Carlos Hernandez died of natural causes in a Texas prison in May 1999, having been jailed for assaulting a neighbour with a 9in knife.

Carlos DeLuna commented on his own ending in a television interview a couple of years before his execution. "Maybe one day the truth will come out," he said from behind reinforced glass. "I'm hoping it will. If I end up getting executed for this, I don't think it's right."

[zulusierra]

he had already been judicially murdered by the state of Texas.

Texas has a long, sad history of executing folks on flimsy cases.

A lot of Texans actually seem somewhat proud of the fact that they lead the US in state-sponsored death.

IDK, maybe an old English style "outlaw" classification on individuals would make more sense in some limited applications?

[robertlouis]

Texas has a long, sad history of executing folks on flimsy cases.

A lot of Texans actually seem somewhat proud of the fact that they lead the US in state-sponsored death.

IDK, maybe an old English style "outlaw" classification on individuals would make more sense in some limited applications?

You're missing my central point, with respect. If a state murders one innocent person by mistake or as the result of a flawed or deliberately framed investigation, it invalidates, imho, the entire notion of the death penalty.

Any society that just shrugs its shoulders if the innocent die unjustly deserves our contempt.

[jamesedwards]

Exactly!!!! that's the great point I saw. And the family should bankrupt the whole got dam state of Texas!!!

You're missing my central point, with respect. If a state murders one innocent person by mistake or as the result of a flawed or deliberately framed investigation, it invalidates, imho, the entire notion of the death penalty.

Any society that just shrugs its shoulders if the innocent die unjustly deserves our contempt.

[zulusierra]

You're missing my central point, with respect. If a state murders one innocent person by mistake or as the result of a flawed or deliberately framed investigation, it invalidates, imho, the entire notion of the death penalty.

Any society that just shrugs its shoulders if the innocent die unjustly deserves our contempt.

I am against all state sponsored killing of it's citizens. I do not see execution as a legitimate use of force by the government.

I'm not sure removing protection from an individual (as in labeling them a legal "outlaw") is the same, philosophically speaking.

I haven't given it a huge amount of thought, though. Just found it an interesting concept.

[jamesedwards]

Wowwwwww!!!