Shemales are just men... don't take my word for it

[muh_muh]

i dont see anything fundamentally incorrect with what she says
except maybe that given the evidence using a binary scale for measuring gender and sex is pretty ridiculous

[SammiValentine]

i dont see anything fundamentally incorrect with what she says
except maybe that given the evidence using a binary scale for measuring gender and sex is pretty ridiculous

Well yea and there is an anatomical spectrum that proves how stupid the initial binary concept is as it does not even take these into acccount before even considerng the gender spectrum...

I guess we/society prevents ourselves from ever changing.

Wasnt there a swedish family in the news a year or two ago, a baby born a certain biological sex but the parents were refusing to give a gender? So the child would decide or something similar caused a huge outcry , maybe it was something else ,,

[robertlouis]

Well yea and there is an anatomical spectrum that proves how stupid the initial binary concept is as it does not even take these into acccount before even considerng the gender spectrum...

I guess we/society prevents ourselves from ever changing.

Wasnt there a swedish family in the news a year or two ago, a baby born a certain biological sex but the parents were refusing to give a gender? So the child would decide or something similar caused a huge outcry , maybe it was something else ,,

And can we all please remember that this thread started with misappropriation, however well-intended, of a youtube vid by a confused and frightened young girl who needs help? Poor kid.

[dafame]

The OP was trolling. Looks like he caught a bucket of fish.

I still say being born 'male' or 'female' and being man or woman aren't one in the same; the former doesn't assume the latter.

If in the deeper psychological recesses of one's mind, they KNOW they are a man/woman, you can't say their birth sex trumps all.

Knowing that no human being is absolutely 100% male or female anyway, we all share traits and characteristics with the opposite sex, I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional.

People desire to live in a simple two-dimensional world, black and white. THe problem is the world isn't that simple.

THis entire argument reminds me of Black folk who try to claim ALL biracial people (Black and White parent), as Black, regardless.

Some biracial people identify as Black, yes, like the POTUS. But others really live a life in-between without claiming either as an identity, because they are technically both.

I know TGs face this kind of bigotry passed off as 'truth' IRL, but I don't know why these gender evangelists still spew this garbage on a board like HA.

If society accepts that it's normal for someone to be attracted to the same sex because it's a genuine psychological impulse, why are we still running into the wall of societal orthodoxy when it relates to gender??

I'll let this be the last of my statements being that I understand that there aren't any type of response that will be different then the ones that I've received thus far. As far as the men are concerned as mentioned before I understand where you're coming from. We've all been conditioned to believe that all of the girls think this way and thus our feeling and opinions have to validate these feelings.

On your first point that I highlighted I'm in agreement with you. I was in a long term relationship with a transgendered woman many years ago and she was beautiful. I considered her a woman and at times would forget that she was transgendered to a degree. I would catch myself in amazement like "oh yeah she is a transsexual" when she would do certain things that only transsexuals do "like cutting up perfectly good shorts to make some damn tuck panties...lol". But I doubt seriously that I would have felt that way about her at the time if she didn't convince me she was a woman in the way that she looked and acted.

But the problem with the notion you put out there is that it doesn't ring true with the people of this HA community. I have seen countless post of a picture on this site of someone who might just be starting out and clearly looks like a man in a wig. That is precisely how they are treated on this board. If you learned tomorrow that Arnold Schwarzenegger has always felt as though he was a woman I highly doubt there will be many people on this board or elsewhere that will say "If in the deeper psychological recesses of his mind, he KNOW'S he's a woman, you can't say his birth sex trumps all."

His feeling that way all his life may very well constitute that he is infact a woman but I doubt that people would start to treat him as such tomorrow if at all. This is really a crazy way of making the larger point that of course your birth sex matters. There are things that a naturally born woman can do that a transsexual simply can't and consequently there are things that a transsexual can do that a naturally born woman can't. So how can one say that they are exactly the same? But the even larger point that I was trying to make that people seem to miss or just really don't care to hear, is why would you want to say they're exactly the same thing when being a transsexual is GREAT!

But I understand that's something that bothers people so I'll move on. The next point you made: "I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional."

I can't speak for anyone else and am not the spokeman for trollers. I've been an individual trolling and will remain that way. With that said, the reason I'm so adamant about that point is because many (not all and I've made that point already) of them are.

Here's why I feel that way. After dating my ex who happened to be transgendered it was some years before I even thought about transsexuals. She was my exposure to transsexuals. Without going into the long story of how we met I'll just say that it was a long maturation process that brought us together that went from us dating for a while without me know a thing, to me learning the truth of her situation, leaving her alone, and then coming back. Through the experience of our relationship I gain an appreciation for transsexuals.

We were together nearly 3yrs and when our relationship ended transsexuals were the last thing on my mind. But after some years I did eventually start to date transsexuals again and what I learned is that they are very different then genetic women in one way in particular. How the go about choosing men.

Admittedly I haven't dated a lot of transsexaul woman so my sample may be small but this is based off of things that I heard from my ex's friends while we were together as well. See as soon as many of these girls found out about my previous relationship they didn't really want anything to do with me. I was a tranny chaser because I had been with a transsexual before and I couldn't give them the feeling that they were "turning me out" and that I would never have anything to do with a transsexual in any other circumstance but because it was them was the only reason I was there. Once they new about my previous relationship all of that went out the window.

Now as the years go by (and I know many of you have seen the posts as well about why the girls won't date a guy that's been with transsexuals), I've learned that not all women think this way.

It is self delusional to think in these terms. To think that any man that would be with you even if you're the first transsexual he's been with is any different then a man that has been with a transsexaul previous has something to do with you is self delusional to me.

I think it's also self delusional to consider yourself a woman through and through. No different in any way than any other woman, yet expect a man to be completely secure about you and to have to know that he isn't ashamed of you in any way. That if his friends or family knew of your situation that he would be fine with it because that what it takes to love you.

I in no way am suggesting that a man should hide his woman. Infact I can tell you that if I were to ever be in a relationship with a transsexaul again I would prefer that my friends and family knew simply because I don't like the pressure associated with trying to hide something like that. But for a woman to expect me to accept her "transsexuality" but can't accept that reality herself, to me is self delusional.

I don't know how anything that I've said makes me a bigot or "a homosexual that hates transsexuals" as someone posted earlier. I just have a different view point on what my expectations are of a girl and what it is that I appreciate about them. I'll say it again, I don't need them to be women no different then my cousins, I need them to be who and what they are. This is the appreciation that I have for them and if that doesn't fit into your box of how a man should view a transsexual then that's I guess where I've earned my label. Not a problem with me at all.

So with that said I'll take my fish and go feed the people.

[trish]

...But I understand that's something that bothers people so I'll move on. The next point you made: "I don't know why conceptually some posters are so adamant that transgendered women are self-delusional."
...
I think it's also self delusional to consider yourself a woman through and through. No different in any way than any other woman, yet expect a man to be completely secure about you and to have to know that he isn't ashamed of you in any way. That if his friends or family knew of your situation that he would be fine with it because that what it takes to love you.

Are you being self-delusional when you call yourself a man? Why not? Because you’re sportin’ a Y chromosome? Does that mean you’re a man through and through? How about that faggot clicking on those forbidden threads and jerking off to pics of dudes in wigs? He’s sportin’ a Y too. Is he a man? I mean through and through? What does that mean? Through and through? Couldn’t it be the case that you aren’t a man all the way through? Let’s go at this from the other direction. Is your transgender ex a man through and through? She too is toting a Y. But surely you couldn’t have had a romantic liaison with someone who was a man through and through. So I’m guessing your answer is that, “No, she isn’t a man through and through.” But judging from your post, it would be your opinion that she’s not a woman through and through either. So if through-and-thoughness is not genetically determined, how do you know you’re a man through and through? Perhaps you would admit you’re not? Perhaps you know just to what extent you’re a man and to what extent you aren’t. On most occasions do you present yourself as a man? All occasions? Do you want women to appreciate you sexually as a man? Would you reject a woman who didn’t think of you as man? I would reject a man who didn’t think of me as a woman. Is my attitude symmetric to yours? I don’t expect my lovers to think of me as a woman through and through...I’m not sure what that means exactly. But I do expect them to think of me as a woman to about the same extent and in the same way that think of them as men.

[dafame]

Are you being self-delusional when you call yourself a man? Why not? Because you’re sportin’ a Y chromosome? Does that mean you’re a man through and through? How about that faggot clicking on those forbidden threads and jerking off to pics of dudes in wigs? He’s sportin’ a Y too. Is he a man? I mean through and through? What does that mean? Through and through? Couldn’t it be the case that you aren’t a man all the way through? Let’s go at this from the other direction. Is your transgender ex a man through and through? She too is toting a Y. But surely you couldn’t have had a romantic liaison with someone who was a man through and through. So I’m guessing your answer is that, “No, she wasn’t a man through and through.” But judging from your post, it would be your opinion that she’s not a woman through and through either. So if through-and-thoughness is not genetically determined, how do you know you’re a man through and through? Perhaps you would admit you’re not? Perhaps you know just to what extent you’re a man and to what extent you aren’t. On most occasions do you present yourself as a man? All occasions? Do you want women to appreciate you sexually as a man? Would you reject a woman who didn’t think of you as man? I would reject a man who didn’t think of me as a woman. Is my attitude symmetric to yours? I don’t expect my lovers to think of me as a woman through and through...I’m not sure what that means exactly. But I do expect them to think of me as a woman to the about the same extent and in the same way that think of them as men.

It's good that someone actually took the time to read what I wrote and have some understanding of it without just jumping on the band wagon. Great points once again I'll touch on a couple. No my ex wasn't a man through and through although she was born male the way that I was. But through how she identified with herself she wasn't male through and through. She didn't consider herself male through and through nor did I.

Of course the use of hormones and various cosmetic adjustments helped her with how she identified with herself and helped me as well to see her the way she saw herself and the way I wanted to. She was beautiful and not only that she was the sweetest person I've ever met. Like I said previously, I'd forget at times that she was even transgendered. But with that said I can tell you that (and this is why I said someone actually took the time to understand the post) your assessment of what I said was correct. I do not see her as a woman through and through.

While we're on the subject of through and through let me clarify what I ment by that. Perhaps it wasn't the best choice of words and seems to have caused more confusion in you then is necessary for you to see the larger and perhaps important points. By through and through I simply was trying to establish that there is infact a difference between a transgendered woman and a woman that was born a woman. The same way that there's a difference between Chaz Bono and me, and some of it does just simply come down to those Y's and X's you were talking about.

As far as the homosexual (I don't use the other word) you were talking about that's mastubating to pictures of men in wigs. This doesn't really come down as much to behavior for me as it does the chromosomes. Regardless to what a man does or whether he's gay or straight is beside the point. A gay man who dates other gay men is no less of a man to me then any heterosexual man that bang every chick he meets. That's not what defines manhood in my opinion and it definitely doesn't change a person biological makeup.

So to answer you question, yes I would treat you as a woman. Just like any other woman. But because I see you and respect you in a certain way. Because I care for you and your feeling and truly believe that you were born in the wrong body doesn't mean that I can simply disregard as fact that you "WERE BORN IN THE WRONG BODY".

It doesn't mean that I can have the illusion that we can one day have biological children together, but by virtue of you it doesn't mean that I wouldn't be able to see you as being a great mother to children we could adopt.

It doesn't mean that I'd expect that there'd be a time each month that love making would be on shut down and you might have mood swings due to natural hormonal changes taking place in your body, but it does mean that I would understand that through what you need to do in order to keep you body in tune with how you feel that there may be times when "like a genetic woman" your hormones may give you the same type of mood swings.

And when infact we are making love it doesn't mean that I'd expect you to hide the part of you that speaks against the view you have of yourself or in your particular case I wouldn't expect you to feel the need to try to conceal the fact that what you have wasn't given to you at birth, but rather appreciate the fact that it is a rarity in either case (penis or vagina) to be making love to someone that you actually love.

So I'll say it again. The appreciation I have for you doesn't have anything to do with you convincing me that you're a woman no different than a woman born with a vagina. Instead I appreciate you're transsexuality.

[runningdownthatdream]

It's good that someone actually took the time to read what I wrote and have some understanding of it without just jumping on the band wagon. Great points once again I'll touch on a couple. No my ex wasn't a man through and through although she was born male the way that I was. But through how she identified with herself she wasn't male through and through. She didn't consider herself male through and through nor did I.

....sounds like you don't even have a definition for being male 'through and through'......at least not one that could be used to successfully counter Trish. I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things - not your fault since that's what we are taught and what's expected by society in general - while she is proposing that we can choose to define ourselves and who we are. But if you believe in God you believe everything is out of your control.....

[dafame]

....sounds like you don't even have a definition for being male 'through and through'......at least not one that could be used to successfully counter Trish. I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things - not your fault since that's what we are taught and what's expected by society in general - while she is proposing that we can choose to define ourselves and who we are. But if you believe in God you believe everything is out of your control.....

Come on guys. I don't mind being attacked but at the very least I ask that you read what I've said before doing so. This statement here shows that either you didn't read anything I said or you just picked through to the points you chose and used the to throw out the red meat to a waiting audience.

My beliefs don't have anything to do with what I was taught. They have to do with my own personal experiences and my some what understanding of biology.

This dialog is good but you gotta read what I'm saying if we're going to continue it.

No I get what you're saying about Trish's post and she was talking about stuff that didn't apply to me or my feeling towards transsexuals. There were good applause lines in there much of which I applaud myself, but I'm not sure what you were expecting me to take away from it in a personal way when it wasn't descriptive of me.

Ok I had to come back and edit this post and it's because I thought about something you said: I was suggesting you re-read her post because it seems you have very fixed ideas about things. Although it is true that my ideas on biology are fixed as they are based in fact I will respond to you assertion by saying: it seems you have very fixed ideas about things. This can actually be applied to someone else earlier who made a statement about me seeing things in "black & white". Black & white or have "fixed ideas" to me is saying you're either male or female. You're either born male or born female and in the case of the transsexual you were either born male or born female and "become" the opposite. I dispute this and say "things are not that fix or black & white". I say if you are born as a person who knows they are in the wrong body then you are born transgendered because a person born female can not actually become "male". This person couldn't actually produce sperm and procreate with a member of the opposite sex. Same with a person born in the body of a male and realizes her transsexuality. Although she can be very much a woman she can't actually become female. She can be a woman in her state of mind and in the way that she interacts with the world but she'd be a transsexual woman. I don't find anything wrong with being transsexual and really don't understand why so many people seem to.

[trish]

Though we have fundamentally distinct approaches, I think both of our perspectives are humane and respectful. Thank you for your considered responses to my interrogatives.

Again, let me say that you generally strike me as someone who is being thoughtful and respectful. The language of “self-delusion” therefore seem incongruous. Are you sure that what you call “self-delusion” isn’t just a different use of language? Don’t many people, especially on these boards, use the term “woman” in such a way that it readily accommodates transgender women? Don’t we use the pronoun “she” to refer to a transgender woman? Why wouldn’t we hope that in the near future the general usage of “woman” and “she” extends the usage that we've adopted here? Why would you want to adopt a usage that accentuates the difference between me and any other woman? Can I never be introduced as a woman? Must I always be introduced as a transgender woman? Am I delusional to include myself in the category woman? Or am I just adopting a simple way of speaking? The human race is a continuum of genders. We all recognize that. Yet we divide ourselves into men and women. Why am I not allowed to chose a side and have others respect my choice? Choosing to call myself a woman is not self-delusion. It's simply a choice. Albeit, a choice that may have been compelled by deep and only partly understood motivations, some of them perhaps physiological and some of them not. It's a choice I invite others to respect without asides about being deluded.

[NatashaLover]

so because ONE girls says it than it must be true!!!! ok well in that same vain..men arent nothing but walking atm's

LOL you go girl!!