Embarassing

[russtafa]

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

hey i'm not racist i just want these slimy ragheads to stay in their own country where they will be happy digging around in the dust and shit where they belong ,its you lefties that want them in our countries where they can fuck the place up by doing what comes naturally to them,ie =blowing up buildings and smelling like shit and wearing their pjs in the daytime and making their women look like letter boxes

[Prospero]

LOL.. Russtafa. "Not racist" "Slimy ragheads" "smelling like shit." You are a comedian, surely.
Jews "funny looking' 'take all of our money" "Steal our women" "global conspiracy" Ring any bells. C'mon - recongise what you are at the very least.

[russtafa]

LOL.. Russtafa. "Not racist" "Slimy ragheads" "smelling like shit." You are a comedian, surely.
Jews "funny looking' 'take all of our money" "Steal our women" "global conspiracy" Ring any bells. C'mon - recongise what you are at the very least.

no don't hate jews they don't blow up buildings and trains i hate these rug kissers but i would not hate them if they stayed in their own shit holes but you lefties want them living amongst us

[Stavros]

Well.........if you did post that, I stand correct. I don't recall it.

Geneva Convention ?????? Why don't we just have a dual with flintlock pistols?

While I understand what you're saying in the abstract, what does your convention rules say about the enemy wearing uniforms and being identifiable? You think these savages play by the Marcus of Queensbury rules...they're breaking rocks with a primitive hammer one minute, and shooting their AK-47's at women and children the next. Get real Stavros.

Yes US soldiers should be held to a higher standard, but you fight savagery with more savagery. You barge in and shoot first and ask questions later...ala Seal Team 6.

I think there is a problem here that has emerged with so-called Guerilla Warfare since Vietnam -no, armies no longer line up in formation in fields and march forward behind a flag, a drummer-boy and someone playing a pipe or bagpipes (often with their relatives watching from a nearby hill-top); we no longer have Presidents or Prime Ministers on the radio or tv making a solemn declaration of war -these days we tend to find coalitions are formed, UN Security Council Resolutions passed, and action taking place on that basis.

Legally it is the Jus in bello -the right to wage war; and the Jus in bellum -the right behaviour during the war, where the distinction between combatants and non-combatants is -or used to be- a basic benchmark, but where the treatment of the wounded, the dead, and the civilians were also codified in law -and these centuries of law-making that began in at least 1648 have also been absorbed into military field-manuals.

The reason for this and the Geneva Conventions, is so that at someone can be held accountable for whatever grievance it was that led to so much killing. Hence the Paris Peace Conferences, to take one obious example.
It is the process that sent Milosovic, Karadzic and Mladic to The Hague -firing on non-combatants in a conflict is illegal and they are there to be held accountable for the siege of Sarajevo, the death camps in Bosnia, Srebrenica and so on.

The US Armed Forces have field manuals that detail how service personnel are expected to behave -and the military has put its own on trial, most notably in the aftermath of My Lai.

If you think this is just window dressing for liberals, it is you deciding that everything that has happened since the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 has been a waste of time; that would include every peace treaty ever signed since then, every trial of every war criminal, from Tala't Pasha in 1919 and the Nazi's at Nuremberg and Eichmann in 1960. If you do think that anything goes in wartime, that it is kill or be killed, you stand apart from all the military professionals, lawyers and politicians who recognise that this removes all barriers to behaviour and in addition, makes the resolution of differences after the war much more difficult.

You should be asking why it is that young Americans have been sent to Afganistan to change a society that doesn't want it anymore than their fathers did not want the USSR to change Afghanistan for the same reasons: so that it would not be a pain in everyone's ass. The people of Afghanistan are fighting NATO in the same way that the French people fought the German occupation, to argue that they should be wearing a uniform is daft, their clothes are their uniform, which is why so many non-Taliban get killed, and why they can never be beaten.

President Carter might have been the initial agency that sparked this conflict -Brzezinski has claimed the US fired the first shots to draw the USSR into a fatal occupation/unwinnable war, my view is that Brzesinksi was the main mover in this, because Carter was always more concerned with diplomacy than war, and just as Carter now stands head and shoulders above Bush and Cheney precisely because of the folly of pre-emptive attacks and regime change, it is time for people like you to concede that it is precisely a policy of You barge in and shoot first and ask questions later that has led to this disaster, that is directly responsible for the death and injury -mental as well as physical- of young Americans, that has meant that NATO cannot defeat 25,000 Taliban anymore than the British Army could defeat 2,000 Provos in Northern Ireland.

It doesn't work, it brutalises people, it humiliates people be they dead or alive, it doesn't solve the political problem that caused it, and it costs trillions of $$$$, most of which ends up in the secret bank accounts of corrupt politicians, arms dealers, and Generals. War isn't just inefficient, it isn't just hell, its a waste of money.

[russtafa]

it's fucked we should not be there and no muslim should be here as they do not seem to assimilate and in fact expect society to change for them

[Prospero]

Some Muslims are from within your own cultural ranks - ie white converts. This is true in the US, Europe and Australia. In the US and UK there are also many Muslims who are black citizens who have converted. You would have them expelled from "the West" as well, Mr Russtafa?

And on a point of fact - very very few Muslims blow up buildings etc. The overwhelming majority are ordinary law abiding peaceful people who simply want to live their lives, worship in their church (mosque) of choice and work for the good of whichever nation they now live in as citizens.

[russtafa]

they can go live with their demolition mates and kiss carpets in the land of the sand bunker

[onmyknees]

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

With all due respect, you're naive and idealistic. That's OK....in fact it's admirable. But there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that. You don't seem to understand that because you like so many others have been sanitized to what war is. Young men in combat week after week loosing brothers and narrowly escaping death themselves numerous times can't always walk the razor's edge you and the other armchair advocates would like them to.Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy.
I don't want you to misunderstand. I don't condone what the marines did. I understand it and relate to it. They should be disciplined quietly, handed their rifles back, and sent to kill more bad guys.... and the politicians should stay the fuck out of it.

[trish]

It's too late to quietly discipline these pissers. Had they not filmed the event and uploaded to the internet one might have quietly given them latrine duty for a month and left it at that. Uploading the clip was tantamount to gloating and publicly taunting their disrespect. Whether they uploaded or some other fucker did, their poor judgment is now the center of international attention. There will be serious and justifiable consequences. Their action, though understandable, is certainly not honorable__nor is it legal by international law or even just the Marine code of conduct__nor is it wise, because the escalation of such behavior will endanger the lives [of] fellow soldiers and supporting civilians__finally their actions reflect poorly on the Nation in the eyes of the rest of the world. Remember, we're trying to win the hearts and minds of the non-Taliban population. This didn't help. At this point simply slapping the offending urinators will be interpreted by everybody watching as condoning their behavior, and as you agree, we cannot do so. (Do I understand properly that you don't condone water boarding either though you find it understandable?)

[Silcc69]

why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women.

Ah you certainly don't hold back I see.