Occupy Wall Street protest

[hard4janira]

And this is why we will never agree. I just don't want to see the U.S. fail. I reject that premise that U.S. should fail to pay its bills and forfeit on its promises, watch its military falter and the majority of citizenry slide into poverty. I want to see the U.S. overcome its difficulties, get out of the recession, train a new generation of workers and grow the economy, not shrivel up and die. I will never get on board for rooting against my own country.

You CANT reject the premise that the US defaults on its bills because IT CAN. The alternative to default is much worse and will do more damage to American citizens. Do you support a balanced budged amendement? If you say no to that and you continue to allow Congress to rape our country and our future then I don't think you can honestly say that you give a shit about what happens to America.

[hard4janira]

look at that tea party go just like any other new corrupted politician

Yeah that doesn't surprise me. Washington corrupts just about everybody who ends up there (which is why I'm astonished that the OWS crowd puts so much faith in government to make things 'fair'). Still, the goals of the tea party are very sound indeed and as long as there is an energized electorate they will continue to re-cycle the politicians.

[BluegrassCat]

You CANT reject the premise that the US defaults on its bills because IT CAN. The alternative to default is much worse and will do more damage to American citizens. Do you support a balanced budged amendement? If you say no to that and you continue to allow Congress to rape our country and our future then I don't think you can honestly say that you give a shit about what happens to America.

Try reading before responding. I said I reject that the U.S. SHOULD default. The alternative to default, i.e. paying our bills, is worse? That's a ridiculous position. I oppose a balanced budget amendment because I'm not a child with no grasp of how the world works. Rooting for default and the end of America is quite a good example of the opposite of patriotism. No wonder we disagree, we have opposite goals. You're proposing policies to bring on an American default while I propose policies to avoid it.

[hard4janira]

if you would have just placed medicare in this post you would be correct but since you included SS you lose credibility and sound like a fox news blowhard, 3 trillion of the current debt is from over collected SS payments since the early 1980s that are initragov loans, these intragov loans are bonds that cannot be sold on the open market and are basically worth nothing

I should have worded it better. 2/3 of our annual spending are for programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. The other 1/3 is defense and the remaining % is nominal.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...us/budget.html

Most of this spending is deficit spending (revenues accounting for probably less than 1/4 of spending). My main point is that most of the debt that we are accumulating is beause of SOCIAL PROGRAMS for the middle-lower class. So how can people make the claim that the 99% has been forgotten about or left behind? You can walk into any hospital emergency room in the country and get treated for a cold without showing as much as insurance or even proof of citizenship. It's maddening to me how people can JUSTIFY the claim that people are being left behind.


Yes, I am aware that SS is a trust fund, but one that has been pilfered by Congress because they have borrowed against it. I wonder when they plan on paying it back?

[hard4janira]

Try reading before responding. I said I reject that the U.S. SHOULD default. The alternative to default, i.e. paying our bills, is worse? That's a ridiculous position. I oppose a balanced budget amendment because I'm not a child with no grasp of how the world works. Rooting for default and the end of America is quite a good example of the opposite of patriotism. No wonder we disagree, we have opposite goals. You're proposing policies to bring on an American default while I propose policies to avoid it.

Bwaaaahahahahaha!!! Paying our bills is not an alternative and you know it. You live on fantasy island if you think that you can tax the 1% to make up for the revenue shortfalls our government has created with thier social engineering programs. Say hello to Tattoo for me if you see him!

The alternative to default is inflating the debt away. The last thing weak minded Americans will EVER do is come to the realization that the bills must be paid. We will go to war with China before that ever happens. For one, Americans won't even elect politicians with the balls to PASS a budget much less balance one. America is choc-full of deluded, stupid people who would rather find a scape-goat for all of the problems that the politicans THEY HAVE ELECTED have created for them.

And I don't think you do know how the world works. How did this country ever manage to make it two hundred years without a fiat currency? What is this crazy world where the money supply is steady and prices fall over time? What a nutty concept that is... How did people ever live!!?? The horrror! I guess the world YOU live in is one where politicians and bankers can print all the money they want to and buy votes with it. That's all we have now. A commodity-less currency enables governments to run amock and that is exactly what is happening now. Not passing a balanced budget amendment is an excuse for left-wingers who cannot accept (or blatantly refuse to accept) the realitiy of what it means for a government to live within its means. You are so wedded to your social programs that NO amount of public debt matters to you. The only thing that matters is bribing voters and buying votes of the so-called 'underpriveledged', even if it means you have to bankrupt the country to do so.

[BluegrassCat]

Bwaaaahahahahaha!!! Paying our bills is not an alternative and you know it. You live on fantasy island if you think that you can tax the 1% to make up for the revenue shortfalls our government has created with thier social engineering programs. Say hello to Tattoo for me if you see him!

The alternative to default is inflating the debt away. The last thing weak minded Americans will EVER do is come to the realization that the bills must be paid. We will go to war with China before that ever happens. For one, Americans won't even elect politicians with the balls to PASS a budget much less balance one. America is choc-full of deluded, stupid people who would rather find a scape-goat for all of the problems that the politicans THEY HAVE ELECTED have created for them.

And I don't think you do know how the world works. How did this country ever manage to make it two hundred years without a fiat currency? What is this crazy world where the money supply is steady and prices fall over time? What a nutty concept that is... How did people ever live!!?? The horrror! I guess the world YOU live in is one where politicians and bankers can print all the money they want to and buy votes with it. That's all we have now. A commodity-less currency enables governments to run amock and that is exactly what is happening now. Not passing a balanced budget amendment is an excuse for left-wingers who cannot accept (or blatantly refuse to accept) the realitiy of what it means for a government to live within its means. You are so wedded to your social programs that NO amount of public debt matters to you. The only thing that matters is bribing voters and buying votes of the so-called 'underpriveledged', even if it means you have to bankrupt the country to do so.

200 years without a fiat currency? When do you think this country was founded? LOL. You have a poor grasp of history and economics. You're stuck in an ideological bubble where facts can't penetrate. BBA is an absurd idea that caters to emotion, not good policy. In a recession, it's appropriate to carry a deficit and when you're out you take steps to reduce it. But again you're advocating for the default of the U.S. so you support a policy aimed at getting us there. And btw inflation is too low at the moment, we do need more of it to help pay down our debts. But you don't want the debts paid, you want to see the U.S. go belly up. I don't.

And you can project all you want onto me. The fact remains that I want to avoid bankrupting the country and you explicitly wish for it.

[hard4janira]

200 years without a fiat currency? When do you think this country was founded? LOL. You have a poor grasp of history and economics.

I was roughly estimating from 1770 to 1970, and I would be 'roughly' correct, although we've had brief interludes of a fiat currency...

http://www.kwaves.com/fiat.htm

Don't be so petty, I have an excellent grasp of history and economics.

You're stuck in an ideological bubble where facts can't penetrate. BBA is an absurd idea that caters to emotion, not good policy. In a recession, it's appropriate to carry a deficit and when you're out you take steps to reduce it.

I would argue that you live in an ideological bubble. You won't accept the fact that QE1 and QE2 were failures as was the Presidents stimulus package. Unemployment hasn't budged noticeably and GDP is crawling along at a pathetic pace - nowhere near what it needs to be in order to offset the public debt that we've created. Moreover, many economists are predicting another recession starting Q1 of 2012.

If these programs had worked why are we seeing the OWS movement growing larger and larger? You would argue that (like Krugman) that we haven't done enough, we need to do more, we need more stimulus, more debt...more more more. And the fatal flaw with your theory is that in good times, government DOESN'T take steps to reduce the deficit. Where was goverment reducing the debt from 1988-2000? Nowhere to be seen. Government still ran up massive debts during the good times and the bad (we did have a couple of years of a balanced budget but we never reduced the overall debt). What evidence do you have that government will reduce the debt during 'good times'. When are these 'good times' coming? Are they right around the corner? Maybe we'll start seeing these 'good times' when interest rates actually start going up to something above ZERO for the first time in 10 fucking years.... or not.... maybe we have just set ourselves up for years and years of 'hard times' followed by mountains of debt.

But again you're advocating for the default of the U.S. so you support a policy aimed at getting us there. And btw inflation is too low at the moment, we do need more of it to help pay down our debts. But you don't want the debts paid, you want to see the U.S. go belly up. I don't.

If default comes then this country will have DESERVED it. To say otherwise is selfish and shows a weak grasp of reality. And not raising the debt limit isn't a policy towards default. It's a policy towards a sustainable fiscal policy. It means large, immediate cuts in every aspect of federal government. But you can't handle those truths, moreover you do not WANT to handle them. You are prefectly content spening 4 times more annually than you take in in taxes and pretending that the day of reckoning will never come.

I DO advocate paying our bills (and by that I mean money that we have borrowed / treasuries that we have sold). I do not advocate increasing the public debt on expensive and wasteful social programs - those aren't 'bills' that need to be paid.

And when you say 'inflation is too low' you mean 'prices are too low'. There is a lot of inflation out there, we just haven't seen it in prices yet because the money isn't circulating. Every time the Fed buys bonds they are inflating, period. And what of people on fixed income? You don't seem to care about inflating away their savings. You do realize that the policies you advocate punish people who try be responsible and save for the future don't you? You do realize that your policies force people into the game because it's the only way that they can beat inflation - only to watch their 401k's and pension funds get wiped out by asset bubbles created by the Federal Reserve. Man, with guys like you 'tinkering' with the money supply to lessen the pain of your cruel debt burdens, who needs enemies?

[BluegrassCat]

I would argue that you live in an ideological bubble. You won't accept the fact that QE1 and QE2 were failures as was the Presidents stimulus package. Unemployment hasn't budged noticeably and GDP is crawling along at a pathetic pace - nowhere near what it needs to be in order to offset the public debt that we've created. Moreover, many economists are predicting another recession starting Q1 of 2012.

Failures by what metric? By the metric of preventing another great depression the stimulus was a success and yes it was too small. We had enough to avert disaster but not enough to get us out of the recession.


And where is this inflation that QE should have caused? You say it's just hiding. Great, maybe we have full employment and a roaring economy. It's all here, just hiding.

And the fatal flaw with your theory is that in good times, government DOESN'T take steps to reduce the deficit. Where was goverment reducing the debt from 1988-2000? Nowhere to be seen. Government still ran up massive debts during the good times and the bad (we did have a couple of years of a balanced budget but we never reduced the overall debt). What evidence do you have that government will reduce the debt during 'good times'.

First of all, you're conflating a flaw of policy with a flaw of politics. The policy will work, but you worry our political system won't be able to deliver it. Yea, how about 1992-2000 when we saw the deficit shrink and didn't even need to raise the debt limit the last few years? I don't know how else you think the debt gets paid down except by first diminishing the deficit which is exactly what happened. There are your "good times." But then as you said politics happened and Bush stole the WH. He acted irresponsibly, exploding the deficit with his tax cuts and wars. Had Gore not been denied, the economy still would have tanked but the deficit would have not erupted as it did.

If default comes then this country will have DESERVED it. To say otherwise is selfish and shows a weak grasp of reality. And not raising the debt limit isn't a policy towards default. It's a policy towards a sustainable fiscal policy. It means large, immediate cuts in every aspect of federal government. But you can't handle those truths, moreover you do not WANT to handle them. You are prefectly content spening 4 times more annually than you take in in taxes and pretending that the day of reckoning will never come.

To say that our country deserves to collapse reveals the emotional basis to your argument. Economics is not a morality play. Life isn't fair. You don't get rewarded with a good economy for self-flagellation and austerity, it only weakens you further. If you want to grow your economy but private business won't do it, then grow via the government. It worked spectacularly for America under FDR. This is not about your personal hangups, it's about what the data say and the data say the stimulus worked and we need more of it.

You do realize that the policies you advocate punish people who try be responsible and save for the future don't you?

I'm advocating for the inflation we had in the 1990's, remember how much everyone suffered then? You're the one wishing for default, advocating cruelty on a massive scale, so what do you care what happens to them?

[Ben]

This isn't shocking. Or disturbing. Or in any way resembling the actions of a police state.
He - is - simply - spraying - because - of - fleas --

.

The Pepper Police --

[needsum]

And this is why this whole OWS is a bad idea from the get-go: NOTHING EVER CHANGES until we change ourselves first.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...street-divided