Occupy Wall Street protest

[BellaBellucci]

the "movement" dosent even know what the movement is about....until 8 out of 10 people at the rallies can agree on why they are there, this is just a clusterfuk.

I actually think that's a good thing. The parties against whom all of these people are protesting have a pretty good idea what they want. Giving them specific demands gives them an out from a situation that adversely affects them financially but that doesn't really affect them politically. I say OWS should keep shooting at the feet of the banks and watching them dance. Debit card fees were just the beginning.

I mean, who cares about bad press if you're already on the politically losing side? You still have righteousness and not having leadership means not having any real consequences (i.e. blame). I think it's genius.



~BB~

[Silcc69]

i actually think that's a good thing. The parties against whom all of these people are protesting have a pretty good idea what they want. Giving them specific demands gives them an out from a situation that adversely affects them financially but that doesn't really affect them politically. I say they should keep shooting at the feet of the banks and watching them dance. Debit card fees were just the beginning.

I mean, who cares about bad press if you're already on the politically losing side? You still have righteousness and not having leadership means not having any real consequences (i.e. Blame). I think it's genius.



~bb~

+111111111

[hard4janira]

Weakened demand is bad because high unemployment is bad. If we disagree on high unemployment being bad, there's no point in discussing it further, we have irreconcilable views. Since the crash debt has decreased and savings have increased but still the economy is stalled. Inflation is what we need because that would diminish the remaining debt, helping the poor middle class the most and spurring our trade competitiveness while conversely deflation punishes the poor/middle class the most. The problem is we don't have any inflation. The too small stimulus was hugely successful in staving off disaster but more was needed. QE tripled the money base and still no inflation. A Keynesian model predicts this, while an Austrian doesn't.

Private debt hasn't decreased significantly enough and the housing market still hasn't found a bottom. Consumer debt is back on the rise again - it is now at the pre-recession level of 2006. And we disagree about inflation - so we will have to leave it at that. We do have inflation - it may not be chronic (yet) and it may not offset the deflation in asset prices, but it is present and it will be going up, I can promise you that. But is it good? Does it really help the poor and middle class the most? What about those living on fixed-incomes and/or savings like the elderly? It doesn't help them. Savers are punished when the government allows inflation to rise - I guess that's just another example of the goverment stepping in and picking the winners and losers. Savers be damned, go pound sand.

[hippifried]

Here's a good video to watch.

As entertainment I guess. That dude doesn't know what he's talking about. Just another "Ron Pauline". He's parroting slogans & memes all over the place, with lot's of dramatic pauses & exagerated vocal inflections, but what did he say? He doesn't know who Keynes was or what Keynesian economics is all about, but he keeps dropping the name as if Johnnie lives across the hall. "We'll get back to talking about the banks in a minute." Oh really? So a minute runs into 20, & still nothing but some BS straight out of the John Birch literature left over from the '50s. This clown never put together a complete & coherent thought until right at the end, where he told people looking for work that they should volunteer to work for free. Yeah, that's gonna happen.

[beandip]

When Gabby Giffords is almost blown away at a supermarket and nothing is done about gun control

Don't fret, Obama and Holder are on the beat, selling guns to Messican drug dealers.

Google "Fast and Furious"

[Stavros]

hard4janira

If you drill down into specific areas, I agree with you that a problem the US faces -which we also have in the UK- is the depletion of a cohort of experienced engineers, as a generation of students who can't do maths or sciences opt for the Law or the unfairly named 'soft subjects' -unfair because we do need media studies graduates in an information age, and there should be nothing soft about the study of history or literature. In the short-to-medium term our engineers will either be German or more likely from India; but this whole issue of what skill-set the workforce has, not just for today but for the next 50 years does need to be addressed, but I think if you really believe that blue collar or even white collar workers are going to replace illegal immigrants in Alabama picking cotton or peanuts, that I think is a stretch...unless the pay and conditions are good.

Similarly, I think when you advocate a purge of waste and inefficiency, and there is too much of it I agree, be it in private industry or central and local government, your policy becomes political suicide, particularly when the short term impact is high unemployment. We lost 25% of our manufacturing base in the UK under Thatcher -you could argue that if much of it was deadwood anyway it deserved to fail -but the point is we never got that 25% back, by the time that the 'markets corrected themselves' men over the age of 50 faced a bleak future; its not impossible to re-train at that age, but finding a job when you are 55 or 60 is not easy. When the unemployed vote, they vote to end their pain, and if the man in a suit comes along with snake oil, guaranteed to soothe it, that's where the vote goes.

Obama's strength is that he is a patient negotiator, someone who believes in compromise and is always trying to find a way to reach agreement on what he believes are just causes. The rhetoric isnt so important, Reagan often made flamboyant speeches which bore little relation to policy, but it was what people wanted to hear. I can't decide if Obama's weaknesses are personal -in plain language that he is a poor leader and cannot motivate others- or the consequence of listening to advisers who don't agree among themselves - this seems to have led to a paralysis on issues like Guantanamo, Pakistan and Afghanistan, while his support for Israel is becoming irresponsible when you consider what it is that Netanyahu is doing and set that in the context of the Arab Spring.

But when you look at the GOP alternatives lining up, then the sweat really starts to creep up and down the spine....hard times indeed!

[hard4janira]

but I think if you really believe that blue collar or even white collar workers are going to replace illegal immigrants in Alabama picking cotton or peanuts, that I think is a stretch...unless the pay and conditions are good.

Here is what I think would/will happen: Fewer illegal immigrants means more demand for domestic workers. Less 'supply' of these workers will increase the amount that they will have to be paid to work in the field. That will lead to higher prices at the grocery.... but at least the law is being enforced. If you take a blue collar worker who is on unemployment and take away his unemployement benefits, after a while, they will end up in the field if that is all that there is left. You have to have the courage to take away the welfare though (if indeed there are jobs that need to be filled). Hell, its not just farm labor but janitorial services for the hospitatility industry, kitchens, poulty plants... the list goes on and on of jobs filled by illegals that would become available.

Similarly, I think when you advocate a purge of waste and inefficiency, and there is too much of it I agree, be it in private industry or central and local government, your policy becomes political suicide, particularly when the short term impact is high unemployment. We lost 25% of our manufacturing base in the UK under Thatcher -you could argue that if much of it was deadwood anyway it deserved to fail -but the point is we never got that 25% back, by the time that the 'markets corrected themselves' men over the age of 50 faced a bleak future; its not impossible to re-train at that age, but finding a job when you are 55 or 60 is not easy. When the unemployed vote, they vote to end their pain, and if the man in a suit comes along with snake oil, guaranteed to soothe it, that's where the vote goes.

No disagreement from me here. One thing to consider though, is that things get bad enough - you have to take your medicine no matter what. Greece is a perfect example. If they want to stay in the EU and get bailed out they have to accept sever austerity measures. However, if they default they are fucked for good. For the politicians in Greece it is suicide either way. Default is the worst option, but it is the one Greek voters would likely choose if given the opportunity. California is like a mini-Greece. The Governer (a tried and true liberal) just announced severe cuts to state worker pension plans. Good luck with that. The people of California are a lost cause. Conservatives have been saying that deep cuts in government spending have been necessary for years but they would never listen. It seems they only pay attention when they hear it from their own kind..

Obama's strength is that he is a patient negotiator, someone who believes in compromise and is always trying to find a way to reach agreement on what he believes are just causes.

Say wha...? Are we talking about the same Obama? He doesn't believe in negotiaing or compromising at all. Did you follow how Obamacare was crafted and pushed down the throats of Americans who wanted nothing to do with it? He backtracked on just about every campaign promise he made. No more deals behind closed doors.... full transparency.... every bill would be published online for Americans to review before it was voted on... full CSPAN coverage of the debates on the house and senate floor...


All a bunch of hot-air and bollocks. All broken promises. All lies.


Obamacare was the seediest, filthiest, back-room, bribe infested piece of legislation that has passed in my lifetime.

I can't decide if Obama's weaknesses are personal -in plain language that he is a poor leader and cannot motivate others- or the consequence of listening to advisers who don't agree among themselves - this seems to have led to a paralysis on issues like Guantanamo, Pakistan and Afghanistan, while his support for Israel is becoming irresponsible when you consider what it is that Netanyahu is doing and set that in the context of the Arab Spring.

I think Obama has two faults: One is that he is a weak leader. (see the book Confidence Men by Suskind). Second is that he is to rigid idealogically. He is a progressive and he won't move to the middle on many issues that could help him politically.

But when you look at the GOP alternatives lining up, then the sweat really starts to creep up and down the spine....hard times indeed!

Can't disagree here, lol.

[trish]

Don't fret, Obama and Holder are on the beat, selling guns to Messican drug dealers.

Google "Fast and Furious"

Just continuing the Bush policy who got the idea from Reagan's Guns for Drugs Contra Scandal.

[onmyknees]

Just continuing the Bush policy who got the idea from Reagan's Guns for Drugs Contra Scandal.

Nice Try Trish....keep reaching. If the goal of Iran Contra was in part to secure the release of American Hostages held by Hezbollah , where all other efforts failed, please explain to us the goal of Holder's Justice Department selling untraceable, unmonitored automatic weapons to Mexican Drug Cartels just miles from US cities on the border? So far Holder's genius has resulted in 200 citizens Mexicans dead, and 2 US border Patrol Agents and a flood of automatic weapons still unaccounted for.

If you have new evidence that Regan who did support the Contra's, knew about the arms for hostages angle, well Trish has her a scoop. The fact is there is no such evidence. If you're looking to draw similarities, here's one I'd like to see....14 administration officials indicted. Can we be so lucky again?

[trish]

Of course it was a nice try and successful too. The policy in fact IS a continuation of the Bush policy and the Iran Contra fiasco was illegal. Moreover, even though I was about six years old when he was president, I can at least I can spell Reagan. What a loser.