Lurkers are such losers

[PSL4u]

This is one of those threads that one guy was talking about...

[Stavros]

Yeah, the contestants are often planted in the audition process. Sometimes these people just want to sing and perform and apply for the show despite some previous measure of success in the industry tho.

Leona Lewis had apparently been in talks with Syco or Simco (I forget which) well before she was on X factor.

In the UK the voting is definitely legit - I don't know about America; you guys could be more corrupt lol...

Last year Katie Waissels lost the public vote for I think 3 weeks before the show had to give in and get rid of her, there were one two programmes where they swapped the public vote for a judges vote, and it was assumed Waissels was kept in because she got up people's noses and so on, so I don't know how legit all this voting is, except that year after year the winner goes on to a life of well-deserved obscurity -in fact correct me if I am wrong the most successful acts, JLS and Jedward, are 'entertainers' rather than singers anyway. I only got interested in this because someone I knew at work, knew one of the contestants who made it to Bootcamp a couple of years ago -he then became part of a boyband that for a year were under contract to Cowell to perform in the touring shows X Factor does, a year out of his life, but he earned more than £30,000 doing something he liked, so thats not a problem.

I think the format and the content is now dead, my guess is that producers are going to revamp the idea and try and take it 'to a new level' as I think they say in the industry. It is a pity that they can't give air time to people who write their own songs, and play their own instruments, I have nothing against singers, but most of these people just want to be on TV, they can't sing; or their voices are one-dimensional.

Debra, what TV shows do you think are top quality? In terms of integrity, style, content and so forth.

[robertlouis]

The other point to be made about the music/talent shows in particular is the long-term harm that they do to the music business in general and musical creativity in particular.

I'm a working musician, so you could say, rightly, that I have a bit of an axe to grind. I've written and pushed my own songs, slogged my way through clubs, bars, festivals, slept in the back of vans and on floors etc, so I've paid my dues and finally got to a reasonably comfortable level since going full time.

However, the illusion created by programmes like American Idol and The X Factor means that there's an entire generation of kids growing up who think that standing in line to audition before a bunch of dysfunctional judges is the way to do it. Well, I have news for you - it isn't.

Add the fact that the route to success is now seen as over-emoting some schlock ballad makes things even worse. I only hope that there are still enough kids screaming acne-driven rock in garages all over the world and sensitive emos with acoustics in bedrooms to save us all from the terrible dreck that shows like this promote and then sell by the truckload.

But then nobody ever lost money by underestimating the taste, or the gullibility, of the public, did they Mr Cowell?

[loveboof]

@ Stavros, that Katie Waisal thing actually works against the suggestion of corrupt voting because it would be unnecessary with the formula of the show - the public vote doesn't send people home, but rather selects two acts of which the judges decide who goes. That safety net can save their own preferences without the need for elaborate cover ups and confidentiality contracts.

@ Robert, those shows are not harming music creation - all they've done is turn manufactured pop into another kind of entertainment. The final product has been there for a long time, but the process used to happen behind closed doors.

[Helvis2012]

Weak.

[robertlouis]

@ Stavros, that Katie Waisal thing actually works against the suggestion of corrupt voting because it would be unnecessary with the formula of the show - the public vote doesn't send people home, but rather selects two acts of which the judges decide who goes. That safety net can save their own preferences without the need for elaborate cover ups and confidentiality contracts.

@ Robert, those shows are not harming music creation - all they've done is turn manufactured pop into another kind of entertainment. The final product has been there for a long time, but the process used to happen behind closed doors.

With respect, LB, unless you're in the business you can see neither the insidious effects nor the concrete ones. By opening up that process for mass entertainment purposes they really have made a sea change in the key mechanisms of the industry, with even more focus and more money being channelled into disposable pop music and thus, as Stavros said, disposable pop acts too.

You might argue that it's always been that way, and it has to a large extent, hence the growth of what we now call indie music, and in the UK, most urban music generates the same way.

But the massive business and public emphasis on crap like the X Factor/American Idol, makes it more and more difficult for people with real talent who can write their own songs and play instruments to have any chance of exposure, let alone fame.

Consider playlisting on radio. If it wasn't for Radio 6 with its digitally-limited audience, there would be no national outlet in the UK for anything that departs from the bland and safe.

These programmes are a curse.

[fred41]

I disagree...the human voice is an instrument...it isn't necessary to write music (or songs)...that's just a different type of talent. Many performers that write music and lyrics...suck or are mediocre at best in performing their own work. It works both ways.

Many singing stars throughout history never wrote the musical score...or even the songs that they performed...but people enjoyed their performances nontheless.

The enjoyment of music is subjective...I don't necessarily enjoy pop music...but millions of people do. Many people now have satellite radio...I-tunes...Pandora...etc...yet they still listen to pop-tunes. They like what they like regardless of what other musicians may want them to like.

...and pop music is mostly what a show like American Idol sells..and it is- by it's very nature, in fact, a perfectly acceptable venue to display it...and a lot of those people wouldn't normally get a shot (at doing pop music), because they often lack a very important ingredient to appeal to the masses - often they are not attractive enough to have been picked out. Visual attractiveness is a very important ingredient to make it in the pop industry...and a lot of these kids unfortunately fail that standard...but they still have a shot to have people listen to their performances.

[BigDF]

This is one of those threads that one guy was talking about...

To tell you the truth, I think the two of you would be better off going back to lurking.

[Stavros]

Fred, you are obviously right about the human voice; but the reality is that with or without these shows, very few singers emerge over a period of say 10 years whose popularity endures, and whose careers last; and also its often true that people who write songs are not good performers -but doesn't that suggest there should be a different kind of programme that would allow new performers and new songwriters to test the audience reaction?

Perhaps, as Debra suggests, it is the risk-averse nature of popular entertainment shows which means that once a formula has succeeded and can be fashioned/manipulated it is done again and again, and if some of the allegedly 'unknown' contestants on X Factor have actually won competitions and even recording contracts, the show is easier to plan.

[fred41]

Fred, you are obviously right about the human voice; but the reality is that with or without these shows, very few singers emerge over a period of say 10 years whose popularity endures, and whose careers last; and also its often true that people who write songs are not good performers -but doesn't that suggest there should be a different kind of programme that would allow new performers and new songwriters to test the audience reaction?

Perhaps, as Debra suggests, it is the risk-averse nature of popular entertainment shows which means that once a formula has succeeded and can be fashioned/manipulated it is done again and again, and if some of the allegedly 'unknown' contestants on X Factor have actually won competitions and even recording contracts, the show is easier to plan.

While it would be interesting to have that type of show ...I'm not sure it could be done within that type of format...probably wouldn't get the ratings either...and like you point out - it's about the mass appeal. By the same token, I think it would even be difficult to do shows within different genres of music (as opposed to the washed out pop version of those tunes like Idol / X-Factor)...ultimately, by it's very nature...songwriters and musicians will, for the most part...always have to come up through the ranks - as Robert said - by skill, determination...and as usual...a little (or a lot of) luck.

...and as far as producing lasting pop stars...that's the nature of the beast anyway....only a few pop stars ever endure. (also note my previous comment on the requirement to be attractive)...you also need charisma and sex appeal...something that can't always be created by a show.