Occupy Wall Street protest

[SebBM]

OWS has evolved into something malicious due to the lack of unity in their message. It's impossible to protest effectively without clear unified direction.

The culprit for our economic woes isn't socialism or capitalism, left wing or right wing; it's the banking system being rewarded by the governments for their management failure; it's spending money we don't have; it's corporations and governments sleeping together (what some might call fascism).

Knowing this, a clear concise message needs to be developed to effectively broadcast what the people want. And realistically the march needs to be on DC not wall street.

[Stavros]

Kareninfife, if you have an IQ of 151 but cannot spell Rothschild with any consistency it merely proves you passed a test -IQ is clearly not a measure of intelligence.

You have said nothing in your posts that has not been aired in public for decades, in violation of truth based on the documentary evidence provided -in the case of the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Communists and the disabled- by the Germans who carried out these atrocities, and recorded them on film and in print.

You are free to deny reality, to claim the earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese and that Martians have green skin, red horns and squeaky voices, but that don't make it so. It is pointless taking on your Abraham Lincoln/Civil War fantasy, because you have already decided it is a fact.

It is dispiriting to find such one-dimensional discrimination on a board devoted to the people who have suffered from it in the past, continue to suffer from it today, and will doubtless be the subject of ridicule and abuse for years to come -you might want to use your energies doing something positive for this community by exchanging your loathing of 'the Rothschilds' for a loathing of prejudice - but it takes courage.

In wi' your gruntle then, puir wheengin' saul,
Lap up the ugsome aidle wi' the lave,
What gin its your ain vomit that you swill
And frae life's gantin' and unfaddomed grave?

[Heather Moorland]

As for the consentrationcamps, there is a good reason why the holocaust denier get their message across. The rallity of the camps is much more complex than people normaly think.
The common myth is that 6 milion jews was gased in the consentration camps and that myth is not true. There may wery well have been 6 milion jew who died in WW II but only half of them made it to a consentration camp. There was never more than 3 million jews in the camps and most of them died from starvation, malnutrition, disease and overwork. It is estimated that about 70.000 was subjected to gaschambers. Posibly peoble who was unfit to work and posibly to get rid of them before the russans came.
Of those who didn't make it to consentration camp either died in the Warsaw getto or was mashineguned during "partisan operation" in the Ukarine. There are stories of entire villages who were driven together in the synagogue after the door was locked and a couple of hand grenades thrown inside. The exact number of dead is not know, but the official estimate of 6 milion in total is plausible.

By the way my gransmothers cousin died in a nazi consentration camp. He fell down from a watchtower.

[Stavros]

Heather, its not about numbers, it is about the principle that events in history that have been documented can not be challenged as if they never happened. The Romans really did invade Britain, we have evidence; they were not tourists; they stayed. The pseudo-historian David Irving once dismissed a critic who mentioned Anne Frank as a victim of the Nazi's -he said something like 'she died of typhus' -he didn't explain what a native of Amsterdam was doing in Poland in 1945, its not like she was on holiday. Same with your examples of people who died from hunger, or the Warsaw Ghetto, or the Ukraine. I am not opposed to the exacting standards of history and detailed accounts of what happened, and I accept that when it comes to precise numbers there is a sub-genre in history on this subject; but there is a difference between a more precise documentation of events and kareninfife's need to transform everything political into a unified conspiracy, based on no evidence at all. You could argue that people do not die from Malaria, but from the liver failure brought on by the infection of malarial parasites; that people don't die from AIDS but from cancer, and so on. But there are mosquitoes, there is a Human Immunodeficiency Virus, and there were Nazi's -someone has to make a stand for decency, as an alternative to something sinister, with a track record that shames humanity.

[Heather Moorland]

Stavros, No Anne Frank was not on a vacation to poland and the nazis did send a lot of people to consentration camp. Including other nazis who was so unlucky as to loose the internal powerstruggle.

But remember that Pellestinians dont just blow them selves up for the fun of it. They do because sombody stole their land and deny them a future. Those who stole their land happen to be a wacho religious cult who think that their god gave the land to them. Nazis or no nazis.

The worst thing is that the jews (or Israelis if you like) abuse those 6 million dead of WWII so that nobody will dare question their own geneside on the palestinian people.

That I find distasfull.

[Stavros]

Heather, the creation of Israel was motivated by political zionism, God and the Holocaust had little to do with it; most of Israel's political leaders have been atheists. Part of the tensions within Israel today are caused by the different agendas of the 'secular' Israelis, most of whom live in the densely populated coastal area between Jaffa and Haifa, and the Settlers and Religious sects who live between Hebron and Jerusalem and other parts of the occupied West Bank. Most of the Israelis who would prefer peace and co-existence with the Arabs have been ignored by the rejectionists led by Netanyahu who opposed to Oslo Accords and governs with fractious small parties in a coalition. The Palestinians do not blow themselves, full stop. The number of suicide bombers is tiny, most Palestinians are prepared to accept a just peace, and do not want violence -but as usual, you only need a small group prepared to cause mayhem and the whole community gets tarred with the one brush. The Holocaust might be used as a political weapon, that is unacceptable, but it happens -but it is a pity the Politics gets ignored in all the emotional twaddle about the Bible and Land, and so on: Israel is a political reality, created for political reasons -which is why there is a political solution -the key, in fact, is to generate trust on both sides, without that, working peace treaties are just pieces of paper.

[russtafa]

Heather, the creation of Israel was motivated by political zionism, God and the Holocaust had little to do with it; most of Israel's political leaders have been atheists. Part of the tensions within Israel today are caused by the different agendas of the 'secular' Israelis, most of whom live in the densely populated coastal area between Jaffa and Haifa, and the Settlers and Religious sects who live between Hebron and Jerusalem and other parts of the occupied West Bank. Most of the Israelis who would prefer peace and co-existence with the Arabs have been ignored by the rejectionists led by Netanyahu who opposed to Oslo Accords and governs with fractious small parties in a coalition. The Palestinians do not blow themselves, full stop. The number of suicide bombers is tiny, most Palestinians are prepared to accept a just peace, and do not want violence -but as usual, you only need a small group prepared to cause mayhem and the whole community gets tarred with the one brush. The Holocaust might be used as a political weapon, that is unacceptable, but it happens -but it is a pity the Politics gets ignored in all the emotional twaddle about the Bible and Land, and so on: Israel is a political reality, created for political reasons -which is why there is a political solution -the key, in fact, is to generate trust on both sides, without that, working peace treaties are just pieces of paper.

i thought most of the countries in that region want to drive the jews into the sea as goal .if someone told me that i would not want to be negotiating with them lol

[BellaBellucci]

i thought most of the countries in that region want to drive the jews into the sea as goal .if someone told me that i would not want to be negotiating with them lol

They tend to waffle on that, and it's mostly rhetoric. It's been removed and re-added to the Hamas charter and M.O. many, many times. It has fluctuated more than the over/under on Lindsey Lohan's final arrest count by the time of her death. The most dismal part of the whole thing is that changes are often in response to criticisms from other Islamic hardliners.

Here's one recent article that discusses the subject in a way that isn't common in the mainstream news media: it actually features a well-reasoned defense of Hamas. But does anyone else think it's time for them to stand up for moderates?

http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/27...l-soas-lecture

~BB~

[runningdownthatdream]

Heather, the creation of Israel was motivated by political zionism, God and the Holocaust had little to do with it; most of Israel's political leaders have been atheists. Part of the tensions within Israel today are caused by the different agendas of the 'secular' Israelis, most of whom live in the densely populated coastal area between Jaffa and Haifa, and the Settlers and Religious sects who live between Hebron and Jerusalem and other parts of the occupied West Bank. Most of the Israelis who would prefer peace and co-existence with the Arabs have been ignored by the rejectionists led by Netanyahu who opposed to Oslo Accords and governs with fractious small parties in a coalition. The Palestinians do not blow themselves, full stop. The number of suicide bombers is tiny, most Palestinians are prepared to accept a just peace, and do not want violence -but as usual, you only need a small group prepared to cause mayhem and the whole community gets tarred with the one brush. The Holocaust might be used as a political weapon, that is unacceptable, but it happens -but it is a pity the Politics gets ignored in all the emotional twaddle about the Bible and Land, and so on: Israel is a political reality, created for political reasons -which is why there is a political solution -the key, in fact, is to generate trust on both sides, without that, working peace treaties are just pieces of paper.

Israel was created as a result of a guilt complex by Europe over their 1000 yr rejection of the Ashkenazi 'Jews' who were displaced after the fall of Khazaria. Those people as someone else mentioned earlier have nothing to do with the Sephardic Hebrew people from the Middle East who have lived with the Arabs for thousands of years. The Ashkenazi/Khazarian people roamed Europe and western Asia getting kicked in every place they went except Poland. Ever since they have managed to usurp the history of the real jews and continued to play on European guilt.

And stating that doesn't make me a Holocaust denier.

[Stavros]

"The Koran tells me if I die for my homeland, I’m a martyr and I long to be a martyr.”

Bella, HAMAS have had a strange history, that's true -the Israelis promoted HAMAS in the first Intifada in order to drive a wedge between Palestinians and Arafat who was considered the primary 'enemy' -HAMAS has veered between practical-reason prepared to sit down and negotiate with Israel, and the sort of nonsense from Tamimi your link provides, as evidenced in the quote from his speech in London -the Qu'ran does not tell anyone if they die for their homeland they will be a martyr, its just sophistry designed to impress a foreign audience and show defiance in the face of the dreadful siege of Gaza. And saying that Israel should 'come to an end' is also not the same as saying it should be destroyed -after all, if there were to be one state, multi-national, multi-religious and so on, Israel would be the wrong name for it.

Israel was created as a result of a guilt complex by Europe over their 1000 yr rejection of the Ashkenazi 'Jews' who were displaced after the fall of Khazaria. Those people as someone else mentioned earlier have nothing to do with the Sephardic Hebrew people from the Middle East who have lived with the Arabs for thousands of years. The Ashkenazi/Khazarian people roamed Europe and western Asia getting kicked in every place they went except Poland. Ever since they have managed to usurp the history of the real jews and continued to play on European guilt.

And stating that doesn't make me a Holocaust denier.

Runningdownthatdream -I can't agree with you -not just because the 'Khazar herese' is at best unproven, at worst a fantasy, but because modern political Zionism was born out of competing agendas for European Jews. Theodor Herzl's anxiety was driven by physical attacks on the Jews in Russia and also Poland, and Ukraine and the Baltic states on the one hand; and the gradual assimilation of Jews in Germany, France, Britain and the Low Countries, Jews who seemed happy to dilute their 'identity' to take advantage of new opportunities in growing economies. Herzl's vision was a nationalist one, and this in tune with the Nationalist agendas that had been sweeping Europe in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. Everyone wanted their own nation, so why not the Jews? The politics in this is evident in the various alternatives to Palestine that Herzl considered, such as Uganda and Argentina -so much for Eretz Israel and biblical authenticity!! But this is also why so many Jews were offended by Herzl and why there are Jews -non-religious- who object to a Jewish state -because it suggests that it was a Jew, Herzl, who wanted to separate out the Jews from other people in their own state -and ultimately, Europe has lost the greater part of its Jewish population, for obvious reasons. But it was politics, and Nationalism that drove this -nationalism may appear to have been anti-Imperialist in the 19thc, a force for Wilson's promotion of 'Self-determination among nations', but it has become a poisonous wreck of an ideology since then, and Israel is not the only state paying the price for this folly.

The real issue that is growing in importance is the division of the spoils in the Eastern Mediterranean where modest, but still lucrative gas fields, possibly some oil, lie off the coast in an arc stretching from offshore Alexandria north along the coast of Gaza and Israel into Lebanon. Noting biblical about that! But who is going to own it? And produce it, and...spend it...