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My latest article for Eros, "Examining Trans Attraction," has gone up on their blog. It's far from definitive, but it's the observations I've made from meeting people who do dig transsexuals. Given that's the majority of you all here on HA, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the article. Am I off base? On the money?
You can read the full article on Eros's Blog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers on blog.eros.com
Good read, Wendy. In my view, Alfred Kinsey nailed it in the 1950's. Sexual desire is not a binary thing, homo or hetero. Even though his 0 to 6 scale does not consider desire for transsexuals, I still think it takes into account these other desires, indirectly. I came of age sexually in the late 70's. Although I knew I was attracted to females, I also knew there was something else to my desires. In the early 80's, as I matured, I gave homosexuality or bisexuality a lot of thought and contemplation. Ultimately, I rejected the idea of experimentation because I felt comfortable with my heterosexuality. Nevertheless, when I encountered Kinsey's scale, I figured I was probably not a "0", i.e. strictly hetero. Twenty years later when my gradual attraction to transsexuals came into bloom, I understood my earlier questions about my sexual desires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
Note, I put this in terms of desire instead of identity. I understand the need of some people to identify as gay or transgender. But to me, there's also no problem in describing oneself through one's desire, without any identity label. That's why I don't get wrapped up in any of the labeling. I desire this and that, and I don't need any special identity for what this or that is. Anyway, good food for thought.
Wendy,
Appreciate your perspective - thanks much for writing & posting! :cool:
I myself am a 100% top who views transgender women simply as "women". Not sure if I fit any of the "categories" (if one has to binned as such).
Anyways - thanks again for the read!
I think the reason I challenge Kinsey's scale is while it's a better description than the binary, it still looks at sexuality on a two-dimensional spectrum and is still beholden to the fallacy of a gender binary. I think that falls short of explaining how men like MrFanti can be attracted to women with penises but not into a small subset of men with penises. I think a scale like the Kinsey scale, but with multiple axes would be a better representation of the complex realities of sexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odelay
Great Read Wendy
Excellent read Wendy. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Wendy I agree regarding the need for multiple axes to describe the non-binary nature of human sexual attraction. However, I get lost trying to think of just how to lay out such a graph. An x/y axis graph is still too simplistic, and even then I'm not sure what the four quadrants would be, let alone an x/y/z 3D graph which would probably be more accurate. Many t-attracted males, like MrFanti, claim to be 100% top who see transwomen as women, but what of those who are versatile, that is, attracted to transwomen as women but also desire a mix of top and bottom action? And so many other flavors. A very interesting question.
You make some very interesting points. This area is so gray. Transsexuals are not in nature, physically speaking. I can only speak for myself about why I am attracted to transsexual women. It runs pretty deep in some parts. Their femininity from their faces, large fake breast, and cocks turn me on. Cocks on men don't do anything for me.
In my opinion men who desire masculine male to female transsexuals are more on the gay side. They are simply into the masculinity more than anything feminine.
While I understand where you're coming from, not so sure I agree with you here. For example, I'm attracted to fit women and female bodybuilders - but I'm still a top and have absolutely ZERO desire to be with a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by TSPornFan
the story of DICK LUBERS .
lose your dick lose a luber.
the number of samples you need is only like 470 or slightly higher to get a high confidence rate!
cool
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSPornFan
Great article Wendy
I find my attraction to transexuals strange as its quite specific, and also paradoxical
The most powerfully attractive TSs for me have very feminine faces, realistic looking breast implants and small boned, delicate bodies, as in you really couldnt tell them apart from a petite and pretty GG save for a very big, rock hard, beautiful and ideally circumcised cock (purely as this is aesthetically more pleasing to me)
The visual appeal of this has an instant and strong effect, yet I have no desire to be topped at all, and I've been with several TS escorts who fit my preference as closely as I could find in London.....Wasabi, Wine, Hung Helen
Additionally I have zero sexual interest in men, and find men in any kind of passive/submissive role in TS porn a huge turn off
By far, the most arousing TS porn for me features solo, TS on TS or TS on GG action.
While I have occassionally dabbled in sex with TSs, I generally found it, largely in terms of the mechanics, harder work and less enjoyable than sex with GGs and for this reason, sexually, have been with GGs only for several years now, including a long term live-in relationship.
So your simplification of placing men who are attracted to male-to-female transexuals on 'the gay side' of the spectrum just comes across as lazy categorising and of no benefit in terms of shedding light on a fascinating modern phenomena
Did you even read my comment? I did not say all men, who are attracted to male-to-female transsexuals are gay. I said the men, who prefer MASCULINE transsexuals are on the gay said. READ!Quote:
Originally Posted by LongTom101
And who exactly defines what is a "masculine transsexual?"Quote:
Originally Posted by TSPornFan
Good writing, Wendy! I have often wondered about my own trans-attraction. I don't really understand it myself, but I think that a few things probably helped develop it. I know I had fetishes at an early age, (initially only involving genetic women), I think that was a part of it. Also, my older sister had a friend that was a CD, (a person that I actually knew and liked as a friend) I think that is the one thing that kind of confirmed it. I grew up just before the Internet, TS porn was not simply a Google search away and I didn't have much access to porn magazines until I was a senior in high school, 17 or 18 years old. I kind of think porn was secondary to it.
And better yet....Are genetic males without any type of muscle or muscle definition "feminine males"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
Thanks for the article Wendy. For obvious reasons this is an area of intense interest for me! I actually had a very long discussion about the topic with a transgender woman I am seeing.
There are two key points to me. Firstly we have begun to accept in this country, the idea that gender is a spectrum. There are cis men, cis women, transgender men and women, androgynous persons, genderqueer etc etc etc... But we seem to be stuck at the idea of an equally vibrant spectrum of sexuality. There are people of all of those categories attracted to people of one or more of all of those categories in a near infinite combination.
Secondly, and this is my personal pet peeve, humanity seems to have a limitless need to categorize everyone and everything. I find it maddening. Why do we need to have all of these boxes to fit people and ideas into? I long for the day when I can meet someone, be attracted to them and have no one care what category of sexuality that fits me into.
Does that mean I'm gay? :dead:
well according to the argument...the guys on the gay side duh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
I mean really! They are fabulous!
But all things considered I don't consider myself gay in any way.
Have i enjoyed dating trans women....um yeah....have i liked it more than dating GG....well....maybe...but that has to do with me not wanting to have kids.
And well since TS women lack a given part of the anatomy.....then i won't have that conversation with them which won't lead to an argument which then means i'm happier....
Now guys on the gay side.....let's see those jazz hands!
Intersting question. I bet there is a lot of variation on this as well. Let me take a shot. After about 200 pussies I just got bored with them. Almost all of those 200 were shitty fucks as well. Just thinking of that time I had to sit through The Blair Witch Project to get some ass only to have her lay there like a dead fish then tell me she was tired and didn't feel like working that hard at it makes me laugh! Seriously, she closed her eyes tight as she could and turned her head to the side the whole time. She didn't say she had a kid either but, that was now obvious from that beat as belly she had. But, I didn't call back and I was an ass for that. You'll never tell that story with a TS in it! Two things you can do with a TS and not a girl is suck cock and get fucker. Both are fun and when they cum its exciting. Girls having an orgasm is less interesting and lots of times a lie. Getting fucked feels good and it's more exciting with a real penis than a plastic one. TS tend to retain a bit of male labido in my experience. Half of them are kinkier than me and that's out there. They are way funner fucks and they are up for anything without the rediculous hangups the vast majority of GG's have. TS don't judge you. period. I've fucked 30+ and never had an issue with that. You always get the ass. Back to GG's and relationships with them. Women universally have, how do you just say; entitlement and bitchiness issues. I'm not a servant or a meal ticket. Women think that pussy makes them the fucking boss and they know everything. That's not even up for debate. I got 3 degrees and an IQ i can brag about but, all my life I've had women with less mental equipment and education trying to tell me shit and looking at me like a martian when I lay down some knowledge on them. I pretty much go to thailand and fuck ladyboys these days. Jesus you take a girl to dinner or the mall and it's a nice low pressure time. It's thanks you and you are a nice guy. Same experience with a GG in america and it's meh. Oh and in thailand then you have mind blowing sex all night, give them some $ to send back home for a new ox or whatever and do it all over with some new poontang the next day. The money you save on an American girlfriend is two x two weeks in thailand a year. On a wife it's more like take a less paying easier job and go to thailand like 4 or 5 times a year. No competition! What was this thread about? OH, it's common sense; short answer.
Judging by your typical posts here I somehow suspect pregnancy is the least of the causes of your fights.Quote:
Originally Posted by SXFX
:wiggle:
You open up a whole other interesting discussion with people who are trans-attracted. What first made you aware you did find transsexuals attractive?Quote:
Originally Posted by wearboots4me
For me, it was in a porn shop on Polk Street in San Francisco. I liked to walk that street going into book and record stores at the time (late 80's). Ethnic restaurants, camera shop, etc. Avoid the male hustlers giving me the eye in the alley ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
I would also wander into porn shops. I remember walking by the gay porn racks, which being San Francisco, was front and center in the shop. On my way to the het side looking for my fave at the time: Heather Hunter, I caught a glimpse of Dana Douglas on a VHS box.
She looked gorgeous and reminded me of a latin girl who had broken my heart a few years earlier. They could have been doppelgangers, down to the dark hair on their arms.
I bought the tape and got off on her receiving. TS porn back then was mostly horrible: linebackers with tits, poofy wigs and shriveled dicks, but I would scan the racks to see if there were anymore titles with Dana in them.
I don't think I bought another TS porn tape until I discovered pre-boob job Vaniity. She had more content and I would buy her titles. That led to Joey Silvera's Evil Angel titles and my love of Bianca Freire and Fabiane Spears.
It kind of mushroomed from there. but after being married I got out of porn. Since my divorce, I would say my porn consumption is 2/3 TG; 1/3 het.
Pretty much to get my money anymore I require two things:
1. anal
2. no condoms
For me... I am in my late 30's and first learned that trans women existed from Phil Donahue! I was instantly attracted from the earliest days of puberty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
You sound charming. I'm sure the problem is in the 200 pussies.Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus124
My advice: keep buying from people who are paid to fund you attractive, smart, and a good lay.
Also- eh, whatever. You've already said it yourself.
Excellent thread - it's a question I have had an interest in for many years myself.
Being a Baby Boomer in a land that in those days was Puritanical and any kind of homosexuality illegal (which sex with a TG would have been then) I had never even heard of transgendered people until I met one. It was a person who had attended my boys-only high school, and when at school I'd thought this guy was pretty cool and may have actually been sexually attracted to him without even knowing it, but when I saw her dressed as a female the first time, I was enormously attracted to her. (Gutless old me, aged 18 didn't even ask her for a date! Idiot.)
It's a completely internal thing, and you're right on track when you're looking at the XX/XY axis - we never know where we are on it until we find out, and it requires personal honesty to overcome the cultural biases we've mostly been brought up with.
The spread of females, transgender and males I'm attracted to fall into a pattern and it's the typically evolutionary force in play where I am attracted to their face and body type - the simian in me surfacing no doubt. The fact that someone I find attractive may or may not have a penis is immaterial to me - if I'm attracted to them , what equipment they have doesn't matter. I dabbled in the gay world to see if it was a gay thing and I found I was not attracted to gay guys at all, unless I was attracted to their femininity.
I top, I bottom, I do everything there is to do.
I believe a lot of the trouble with acceptance is people being scared to accept their own feelings - the "does that make me gay?" syndrome. I can show a picture of a beautiful trans face to a guy and he will do the usual guy thing of "I'd love to tap that!" right up until I show the naked full shot and their visceral reaction is "YUK!"
Hi,
I too have had many girlfriends over the years, and have been married for about 15. My wife simply stopped oral sex. It's always been important to me, I'm in shape, clean, a great provider, and it just stopped. Perhaps her boyfriend is now the recipient, anyway.....I've always wondered what was so bad about sucking a dick. I figured I should try it but I have no attraction to guys whatsoever. Over time, and looking at more dicks wondering how bad it could be, the attraction to a feminine girl with a dick grew. Now it's pretty much all I think about, and it's the only porn or adventure I'm really interested in. I won't cheat with women, pussy isn't worth the drama, lies, etc. But a hot trans woman might be something to try out.
That explains my attraction, no science or studies needed.
I think it was my sister's friend's cross dressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
I read the paper but it has not told me anything new.
The only thing that we learn from all of the studies that are made of sex and gender is that human beings have diverse desires.
You can spend years reading medical reports, queer studies such as the interesting, but often incoherent work of Judith Butler, read the feminists who look favourably on transgendered people or who detest them, be sick and tired of reading morally pompous/threatening scriptures from religious bodies, and conclude that none of it settles anything, that none of it matters.
Who knows why some men are attracted to women with big breasts when other men prefer women with small breasts, or why physical appearance is irrelevant and people fall in love and marry because they enjoy each others company? Why are some men attracted to Black transexuals but not Asian ones, or transexuals with big cocks -or small cocks, or blonde transexuals wearing glasses or transexuals who cough a lot?
If you take Judith Butler's concept of 'performance' as a critical marker, you may assume that men who are attracted to m2f transexuals enjoy anal and oral sex, but is this absolutely the case, because even in Butler's world of mobile meanings, if a man visits a transexual escort to masturbate without touching her, what is the meaning of the performance, how, if at all, does it define his 'sexuality'? How can anal or anal sex between a man and a m2f transexual be considered 'gay' or 'homosexual' when such terms refer to more than a sexual performance but to something with a broader meaning -or are gay men to be defined solely by the way they perform sex acts when nobody would define a heterosexual couple solely on the way they perform sex?
Perhaps the keenest paradox I find is that while Butler and many others argue that there are no fixed categories in sex and gender because they change over time and are culturally determined, this means nothing to the transexuals I have known, none of whom would accept they are a 'third sex' but all of whom would insist that they have no doubts that they are women. The very people whom Butler might argue (dis-)embody the mobility of sex and gender are firmly anchored in the certainty that they are one gender only and cannot change -which is why for them SRS is a correction, not a change.
We do what we do to enjoy sex, be it masturbating, engaging in anal, oral and the in betweens -and the weird and wonderful -I have no doubt academics will spend millions over the years conducting survey after survey after survey, to tell us what? That people rarely tell the truth about sex? That when they do it is discovered that a wide variety of people engage in a wide variety of sex acts? Curiosity means that this will always be an interesting subject, and I understand how some individuals feel guilty about their desire, become trapped in emotional and intellectual turmoil about their 'identity', but in the end it is just sex, an activity whose intention, outside procreation, is to give pleasure, not pain, to enhance the enjoyment of life.
As the sexologist Wilhelm Reich once put it, 'Fuck freely, comrades, it's healthy!'.
RuPaul's Supermodel video blew me away the first time I saw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
Here is my 2 cents on this.. As the topic has always been and intriguing one to me.
I actually only recently found my own personal resolution to this after dating a transwomen whilst visiting the Philippines.
Here is my answer in simple form: It doesn't matter. As easy at that, no one needs to explain why some men are trans attracted, and some aren't. There is no need to define the attraction because it's not important. It just is what it is.
The reason in my opinion for everyone to have to put a label on this is because of a societal need to.. It's for everyone else's benefit, for society as a whole to label someone's attraction. Why? Because of modern societies view of transgendered women. Despite, recent exposure in mainstream media and a growing acceptance of trans celebrities.. Transwomen for the most part are still viewed as taboo, or objects of sexual fetish and so a cis man (or woman's) attraction to transwomen must carry with it a label or justification.
There is the arguement re: genitals and the question, why are men attracted to 'women with dicks?' Again it's not really important, and doesn't really need a label. I myself am 100% top, attracted to women only, and to feminity but I am neutral when it comes to genitals and thus have no preference, cis, pre op trans or post op trans women but I'm no rush to justify that, it's just the way it is for me. I am also open to giving an receiving oral sex from a cis or post op transwoman as well as pre op, as giving pleasure to a woman and not being greedy (give me all the head) is the path to a better sexual experience with that person.
There are men who are attracted to pre op trans women only. Do they need a label? No not really. They are still attracted to women, and it would be unfair to say that the pre op transwomen he is attracted to identifies as anything other than female.
I think there will always be the desire to answer the question why are men attracted to trans women, but really the answer is not important. You are attracted to whoever you're attracted to. Society is demanding an answer to your private attraction and it almost feels like the reason there is need to define your attraction is because there is something wrong with it. Let's use an example from the recent past, in the US.. White men and their attraction to black women. Until recently it was illegal for this type of marriage to exist, and society would always beg the question why? And the reason society asked that question? Because black Americans were (and still are in some cases) viewed as second clas citizens, as inferior, and so there always had to be an explanation for it.
You'll see, that if society comes to view transsexuality as non taboo, as 'normal' (I don't like the word normal but you get the gist) in our lifetime, the need to explain away trans attraction will disappear, because ultimately it's not important, it just is, like every other type of attraction.
I agree with your argument to a certain extent, but by the same token there is an activism element which needs to occur to get us to the point you describe. The problem with people digging transsexuals isn't with the trans-attracted people, but with the folks who can't conceive of liking a transsexual. Unless we can help open their eyes to the diversity and normalcy of trans-attraction and help those people to understand why it's right for you to dig a TS and also equally alright for them not to, we're never going to achieve the societal acceptance.Quote:
Originally Posted by thepiedpiper
my first time with a TS was in 2002. Long before Caitlyn and her family shot to fame by fucking and getting a sex tape...
I don't give a fuck if it's not "normal". if people think liking TSs is not normal, then i think they're hypocrites. very few people these days have vanilla sex likes, considering many people these days do things that people long ago thought was weird, like anal, BDSM, public sex, toys. i'm not hurting anybody, and i don't reckon it makes me nor anybody else gay. i just like a woman's body, look, mannerisms with a big cock. men with cocks make me physically cringe. and i bottom with TSs mostly, but meh, fuck society. sexuality is complex.
I agree, there has to be the activism element but that activism shouldn't be about striving to justify the attraction in the first place and instead should focus on the need to educate people to it's normalcy. Justifying things that are considered taboo only serves as an excuse and still ends devaluing a trans persons identity to that of a sexual fetish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
If everyone can value a trans woman's gender identity in the same capacity as a cis woman's or any other binary gender then the rest falls in to play I think.
ha ha bite me =) you know you want to!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy Summers
well i'm 38 i try and date women who are in their 30's.....and well yeah the kids thing has been a very serious issue which has led to some really bad fights.
so ha! now nibble!
for me it simple..I like girls but I also like cock..Ts girls are a perfect fit