Israel- What is up with these folks?

Sorry 4 jumping off topic here but with all the madness being perpetrated by Israel as of late i just have 2 rant 4 a second. This government has taken idiocy, cruelty and hatred 2 a whole new level. They r constantly in violation of international law in their geo-strategic policies and this is only fostered and allowed 2 prevail with the help of us in the West( US and Britain). These people are dangerously close to igniting a spark that will usher in perilous times in that region and dare i say the world. Personally, i think that this current round of violence on Israels' part is aimed at provoking Iran into conflict and thereby giving them an excuse to take out Iran's nuclear facilities. This would b a geo-political mistake in my opinion and the West must apply pressure on the Israeli regime not 2 pursue this course of action. The consequences of such a move r 2 dire 2 even contemplate. Who has granted these people the right 2 determine the future of another sovereign state? How long will the powerful Israeli lobby hold US foreign policy hostage? As occupiers on stolen land one would think that reason would dictate 2 the Israeli regime that the only rational course of action 4 peace in this region is through negotiation and a back down of open hostility and continued occupation and oppression. The Palestinian people have a right 2 statehood and self-determination and as 2 who and how they will b governed. How long will the world stand by and watch this travesty of justice continue....hmmm??? 8) 8)

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if not for israel this world would be a scary fuckin place...thank fuckin god theres someone with brains and balls moitoring the nasty fuckin people all around them...u know its politically correct to say all men and stuff are created equal, but theyre not, some people are fuckin animals

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...spoken like a true racist idiot and warmonger. If this is the prevalent attitude of the average Israeli citizen(which i dont believe is the case as polls show) then no wonder there is continued violence in that region and resentment on the part of the average Palestinian towards Israel. 8) 8)

Now wait a minute, j. Are you not willing to consider that these people's leaders have been described by some soldiers as basically being a middle eastern version of southern baptists here? Crotchety old fuckers frowning upon alcohol and dancing? Just hanging on to a very old religious/cultural way of thought/life because they have so much resistance to change? I firmly believe that anyone, anywhere in the world just basically wants to make a living and live their life. Yes religion can be fucked up nd breed the kind of shit you're talking about - but Not everyone over there is a bloodthirsty asshole. This society has been talked about for years as breeding a hotbed of US/western hatred through its system of terrorist schools. You take a piss-poor person and tell them with all the power of simultaneously religious and government offices and you tell 'em, "These Americans are getting rich off of YOUR oil and killing your people....your country and your God command you to fight!" Well shit, picture telling a bunch of good ole Southern boys the Russians are coming!
OF COURSE these folks are sucking it up. But we can't just kill them. It's not right, it's not necessary, and it's very very doubtful that, even removing these two huge reasons, we even could. Imagine what bombing the fuck out of a middle eastern country would start. Empires have fallen trying to fight everybody.
Look, we're all coming into contact with each other via various media more than has ever been possible. These cultures which have obviously violent ways of settling conflict are just behind the times. We have to be tough with them. That's all they respect. But we can't turn into mass-murderers, rapists, OR lose our constitutional freedoms over this shit. In a way, we're all rats in a cage. The cage isn't getting any bigger, but there's a fuck of a lot of rats. The fighting is over resources. Everything else is just propaganda.
Maybe I'm wrong. But to me the only long term hope is that we learn to live together, not in any Brady Bunch sense of world peace, but just fucking doing business, taking vacations, letting the world markets and immigration stabilize, races continue to intermarry until we're all kinda coffee-and-cream people, and we quit wasting all the money and people fighting over stupid shit. Either that kind of thing happens, or we're gonna see things get a whole lot worse. I get so fucking down thinking about sick hungry kids in piss poor neighborhoods and people suffering. Whatever it is,war, government, religion, people just not giving a shit, I fucking hate it.

TwoWay, you are beyond ignorant.

Who are the Palestinians? Was there every a nation of Palestine?

NO!

It was a territory England seized from the Ottoman Turks after England won WWI. The Turks held it for almost 600 years prior to that. Before that, it was mostly in Crusader hands. Before that, a succession of nation-states like the Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, etc. Before that, the Hebrews. Before that, a loose collection of tribes of biblical times: Moabites, Amorites, Hittites, etc.

Do you see "Palestinian" there?

NO! This was NEVER Palestinian land.

Who did Israel take the land from in 1967 (by winning a war the ARAB nations started)? They took the land from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. Do you see "Palestine" on that list?

NO!

The "Palestinians" of today were Jordanians and Egyptians before they decided to call themselves "Palestinians". You want Israel to give more land back? You know, of course, that they did, when Egypt decided to make peace with them. They'll give it back, but to Jordan or Egypt.

The Arabs of the region were given a 2-state solution, in 1948. And you know what they did with it? They started a fucking war, determined to drive the Israelis into the sea.

They lost that war. They lost every other war they started. They are going to lose this one.

The Arabs of the region don't want peace or a 2-state solution. They won't stop until they have destroyed Israel. It's not out of concern for the "Palestinians". It's because they hate Jews and want the land.

Get a fucking grip!!!!

What I was talking about was our relationship with Iraq or Muslims. I'm not qualified to make an intelligent guess at what's going on with Israel and Palestine. What's the situation there? Educate me. It's the same thing with India/Palestine. It's a fucking stupid religious thing that won't let go. What the fuck is it going to take to change things? Are the Palestinians violent to a person? Or is it just a minority?

You tell us, Fabiane. What's the solution to the middle east crisis? And what's a cute little thing like you doing double anal?

I figured it was only a matter of time until someone posted on this topic. That said, let's look at some facts:

1. Arab citizens of Israel, who makeup roughly 20 percent of its population, have more rights and greater representation (Arab Democratic Party, etc.) in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime. Note. I’m not talking about non-Israeli citizens in Gaza and the West Bank.

2. Israel is, and has long been, the only true democracy in the Middle East. Turkey has never been a true democracy in that the military steps in every time it sees something it doesn’t like. Iran is anything but a democracy because the Islamic Guardian Council must approve any candidate before they can for office. Not surprisingly, it tends to bar moderate and liberal candidates from running. Lebanon’s political process has always been controlled by Syria. Despite recent efforts by the Lebanese people to achieve greater political independence, Syrian intelligence agents – who are everywhere in Syria – still strongly influence the political process. Egypt, with its president for life, is a dictatorship with the only the thinnest veneer of democracy. Iraq is still a new democracy and not a functionally sovereign/independent entity despite claims to the contrary). The rest of the states not mentioned are all monarchies and dictatorships with extreme authoritarian tendencies. So there you have it, not one fucking democracy in the Middle East for decades, except the state of Israel.

3. There are more new books published each year in the tiny state of Israel than the rest of the Middle East combined. This shows you the cultural difference between what is produced in the region's only democracy and its ubiquitous authoritarian regimes.

4. Palestine means "Land of the Philistines." The Philistines were a colony of Mycenean Greeks who fought against the ancient Israelites. The Philistines are no longer there, the people of Israel still are (despite the occasional deportation). In fact, their presence in the region predates by a substantial time period both Islam and anything that could be considered a recognizable Arab culture – at least in the sense of the word "Arab" as we know it today.

5. As previously noted, today’s Palestinians are mostly Egyptians and Jordanians, not a culturally distinct people. Still, if you really want to look for a “Palestinian State,” you don’t need to look any further than Jordan, a state with a 70% Palestinian population

6. In the last ten or so years, Israel has gone to great lengths to make peace with its aggressive neighbors:

A. Under Ehud Barak, Arafat and the Palestinians were offered peace on the terms that they had long claimed would be necessary for a lasting peace with Israel. Despite this, Arafat refused peace. When asked by then President Clinton “how he could be so stupid,” Arafat is reported to have replied “I can’t; they’ll kill me.” He was referring to small hard line elements within his own party who wanted the conflict to continue indefinitely, not matter what terms were offered

B. Hezbollah had long claimed that the only reason for its existence was the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon. It’s leadership had always stated that once Israel withdrew, it could disband. Under Ehud Barak, Israel withdrew from said territory. Not surprisingly, Hezbollah is still there, attacking Israel. Their new justification has been to claim that the Sheba Farms – territory that every nation on the planet, including the Lebanese government, and the UN agree belongs to Syria – rightfully belongs to Lebanon (a claim that Hezbollah only made after Israel withdrew from Lebanon). As such, according to Hezbollah, Israel is still occupying Lebanon. Fucking ridiculous.

C. Syria had long claimed that if Israel would return the Golan Heights, it would make peace with Israel. Once again, under Ehud Barak, Israel offered the return of the Golan Heights. The Syrians countered by stating that, not only did they want the return of all of their original land, but they also wanted new land that Syria had never owned. Not surprisingly, peace talks broke down.

In each of the three aforementioned instances, Israel agreed to meet longstanding and often stated Arab terms for peace, only to have new demands put in place or simply to have peace refused without any explanation at all. Given that the Arabs started the 48, 67, and 73 wars, why should this come as a surprise?

-Quinn

I don't really find it necessary to state a political opinion when I'd be responding to someone who types the number "2" instead of "to."

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Originally Posted by polarstar

TwoWay, you are beyond ignorant.

Who are the Palestinians? Was there every a nation of Palestine?

NO!

It was a territory England seized from the Ottoman Turks after England won WWI. The Turks held it for almost 600 years prior to that. Before that, it was mostly in Crusader hands. Before that, a succession of nation-states like the Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, etc. Before that, the Hebrews. Before that, a loose collection of tribes of biblical times: Moabites, Amorites, Hittites, etc.

Do you see "Palestinian" there?

NO! This was NEVER Palestinian land.

Who did Israel take the land from in 1967 (by winning a war the ARAB nations started)? They took the land from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. Do you see "Palestine" on that list?

NO!

The "Palestinians" of today were Jordanians and Egyptians before they decided to call themselves "Palestinians". You want Israel to give more land back? You know, of course, that they did, when Egypt decided to make peace with them. They'll give it back, but to Jordan or Egypt.

The Arabs of the region were given a 2-state solution, in 1948. And you know what they did with it? They started a fucking war, determined to drive the Israelis into the sea.

They lost that war. They lost every other war they started. They are going to lose this one.

The Arabs of the region don't want peace or a 2-state solution. They won't stop until they have destroyed Israel. It's not out of concern for the "Palestinians". It's because they hate Jews and want the land.

Get a fucking grip!!!!

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:claps Well said!

Israel didn't start this as you would have it TwoWayBro. Hezbollah has been sitting on the northern border of Israel with their rockets poised directly at Israeli cities for some time now. The Israeli's knew it because, unlike you, they're informed about the situation around them as a result of vigilant intelligence. Your ranting post clearly demonstrates that you have little understanding about the conflict in the region. Israel is completely surrounded by enemies. When one of them stages an attack from a neighboring country, you can bet Israel will respond harshly against that country if their government will not thwart the problem themselves. If militants in Canada lobbed rockets over the border into an American city, you can bet that America (any country) would respond back viciously to make it clear to the perpetrators that such actions will not go unpunished.

When you have Muslims against Jews, there is no “Roadmap to Peace”. There is only the “Roadmap to Damascus and Tehran”.

Get a clue TwoWayBro.

Goodness me! I would have to go a long way to read such rubbish! All the way to the 'Good ole USA'.

Let's see;

1.
"Arab citizens of Israel, who makeup roughly 20 percent of its population, have more rights and greater representation (Arab Democratic Party, etc.) in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime. Note. I’m not talking about non-Israeli citizens in Gaza and the West Bank."

What does this mean exactly?

Here's another take on the situation;
Founded in 1988 by Abdel Wahab Daroushe, a former Labor Party Knesset member, the Arab Democratic Party (ADP) won one seat in 1988 Knesset elections and 2 in the 1992 elections. Its platform focuses on achievement of full equality for Israeli Arabs and on full Israeli withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, as well as the establishment of a Palestinian state. In 1996 and 1999, Daroushe agreed to participate in a joint electoral list with Islamic groups.


In other words, Israeli Arabs are not considered equal to Israeli Jews in Israel. It's written into their 'constitution'.

2.
Israel is, and has long been, the only true democracy in the Middle East.

If the Israeli Arabs are not considered equal, it is not a "True Democracy" Full stop.

3.
"There are more new books published each year in the tiny state of Israel than the rest of the Middle East combined. This shows you the cultural difference between what is produced in the region's only democracy and its ubiquitous authoritarian regimes."

It is entirely possible that if the Arab countries were not kept in a constant stae of turmoil by certain western countries in cahoots with 'Israel', they could use their resources elsewhere.
But Israel and the USA love to develop and sell weapons.

Read the latest? U.S. vetoes U.N. resolution against Israel
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...-un-veto_x.htm

That must be close to the seventieth(that is correct, 70) time that the USA has vetoed a resolution against Israel.

Why do you think that could be? Is everyone but the USA and Israel wrong? No one could be so stupid as to believe that. Do you?

Yet, they are VERY keen to enforce UN resolutions against others.


I'm not USA bashing(in this case). Just hoping at least a few people will step back and ask themselves a few questions.


4.
"Palestine means "Land of the Philistines." The Philistines were a colony of Mycenean Greeks who fought against the ancient Israelites. The Philistines are no longer there, the people of Israel still are (despite the occasional deportation). In fact, their presence in the region predates by a substantial time period both Islam and anything that could be considered a recognizable Arab culture – at least in the sense of the word "Arab" as we know it today."

What has this got to do with anything?

You're conveniently forgetting to mention how the state of Israel was created by terrorism. Yes, Menachem Begin was a terrorist. Do a Google search if you don't believe me.
A Jewish minority was transformed into a Jewish majority. I don't know of too many people who would tolerate that situation.

5.
"As previously noted, today’s Palestinians are mostly Egyptians and Jordanians, not a culturally distinct people. Still, if you really want to look for a “Palestinian State,” you don’t need to look any further than Jordan, a state with a 70% Palestinian population"

If those figures are correct, could that be something to do with the fact that Jordan absorbed a substantial amount of the people fleeing from Israeli terrorism?

Again, look at the facts;
"Since the return of over 300,000 Palestinians from Kuwait in 1991, between 45% and 70% of all Jordanians are Palestinians from the West Bank. Although Palestinians suffer from discrimination and a large number still live in camps, Jordan has granted full citizenship to the Palestinian refugees and their descendents."
"About 3 million persons registered as Palestinian refugees and displaced persons reside in Jordan, most as citizens."

So what is Quinn's point?

6.
"6. In the last ten or so years, Israel has gone to great lengths to make peace with its aggressive neighbors:

A. Under Ehud Barak, Arafat and the Palestinians were offered peace on the terms that they had long claimed would be necessary for a lasting peace with Israel. Despite this, Arafat refused peace. When asked by then President Clinton “how he could be so stupid,” Arafat is reported to have replied “I can’t; they’ll kill me.” He was referring to small hard line elements within his own party who wanted the conflict to continue indefinitely, not matter what terms were offered"

This just pure cr*p.

An excerpt from Wikipedia;
"Clayton Swisher, who was present at the summit, rebuts the conventional wisdom about it in The Truth About Camp David (http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski36.html). Swisher, a young scholar based in Washington, attempts to approach Camp David objectively and concludes that the Israelis and the Americans were at least as guilty as the Palestinians for the collapse. MJ Rosenberg of Israel Policy Forum, a pro-Israel think-tank in Washington, calls Swisher's book "the single best volume we are likely to have on the Camp David failure." Alternative points of view are offered in books by Dennis Ross and by President Clinton himself. Ross and Clinton, who were also both in attendance, place the blame largely on Arafat."

Full article here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit

Also take a look at The Oslo Accords; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

I think that I have made my point that Quinn's post is full of mis-information, commonly known as propaganda.

It's clearly unreasonable to expect others to research the subject extensively, but anyone who is so keen to perceive one side as evil, whilst the other blameless, can be deemed an extremist and his views safely ignored.

Now we've read Quinn's version of history, consider this version; http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html


Yes, I signed up just to reply to Quinn post. Personally, I found it disgusting.

I have learned more about this situation in the past 24 hours than my entire life. Thank you guys. I'm ashamed of myself for not checking into this earlier. I guess I tend to be dismissive of long-standing cultural differences because I think fighting over them is stupid. But if what you guys are saying is true, then Israel has a legitimacy I've never understood. So, what is the thinking on, again, what percentage of the Arabs are hard-liners? And what are some sources you trust to get your information for those of us who'd like to be informed?

If you are serious suckseed, I can assure you that the one-sided rantings of some of the posters here are purely a 'comic book' or 'Fox News' version of history.

The Cactus48 link I have provided will give you a overview of the situation.

I heartily agree with you Quinn, & you B&B, are the one buying into the propaganda. You can nitpick any of Quinns line items, but by & large, they are correct.
The israeli arabs do have more rights than arabs in any arab country,
Israel is way closer to a true democracy than any other arab country,
your garbage about all the arab countries being kept in a constant state of turmoil is just idiotic,
the state of Israel was not created by terrorism- please learn your history
Yes, Israel HAS gone to great lengths to try to secure peace and each & every time, the peace has been interrupted by the Arabs- it's their clear & stated goal to wipe Isreal off the face of the map

I'd also like to add that what is also clear is that the arab leaders in all arab countries are purposely fanning the fires of hatred of Israel. That way they can keep the man on the street uneducated, poor and completely under their control. They are succeeding quite well.

Dear gbert52

Just because you have repeated, 'parrot fashion' what Quinn had written, doesn't make it correct.

Rather than simply repeating inaccuracies, why not post the sources to your information, as I have done?

I can guarantee that you did not read any of the Cactus48 article that I posted.

Now why wouldn't you do so? Could it be that you think that you know everything about the conflict or is it that you are incapable of reading and analyzing new information.

Please, quote your sources.

As an aside, I know many people from the UAE are doing quite nicely thank you. They certainly are not treated as second class citizens as they are in Israel.

well, I guess I'm the 'man in the street' here in the US. Fairly apolitical. Buying into the idea that 'to withdraw in disgust is not the same as apathy.' I voted Nader/Laduke a few years ago, and spent my youthful energy campaigning for environmental issues when I lived in Colorado. I don't identify myself with any political affiliation. I don't want to date Hilary or Ann Colter.
I'd like to ask those who've been active on this thread whether they feel they've come to their understanding of the situation reasonably open-minded to begin with.
If I have any communication skills, it's that I try to put things in plain terms, and see both sides of a situation.
B & B's points have taken the wind out my sails a bit about feeling like I understand. I'm going to actually research this on my own. I'll post here later with questions. Hopefully there are at least things that can be verified. Otherwise, if it's going to remain a matter of opinion like religious debates, I'm going back to playing my guitar.

Aight, i c that HA has a large pro-Israel following and thats cool...im more than comfortable being in the minority and on the side of right. And "right" in this instance is not being pro-palestinian but pro-truth. Most of the stated "facts" above r very much uninformed and full of half-truths. Nothing but the regirgitated party line sung in the West 2 legitimize a grave injustice and illegal occupation. The first thing that must b understood when viewing this issue is that this modern zionist "state" of Israel was thrust upon this region using a biblical myth and a need 4 a common homeland and an escape from oppression as it's justification. Wave upon wave of foreigners migrating there setting up camp with a profoundly different cultural/philosophical worldview. And from the very onset, looked at and treated the inhabitants they found there, be they "palestinians", jordanians, egyptians, arabs or whatever, with disdain and animosity. Originally they were offered the Congo as a homeland and i thank The Supreme Being 2 this day that this didnt happen. The Congo would have experienced yet another ruthless and brutal colonizer. When virtually the whole world(including the US) had imposed sanctions on the brutal South African Aparthied regime the Zionist government of Israel was one of the few who continued 2 do business and offer economic and military support 2 that government. So, we can readily deduce from that what would have happened had they accepted the offer of land in the Congo. When analyzing a problem one must try and resolve/understand its origin/genesis. Get 2 the root. Anything acquired through force and injustice must in essence tip the karmic scales 2 where one reaps the same force and injustice that one has sown. A simple law. Cause and effect. To look at one's responce 2 overt oppression in the face of overwhelming military and economic superiority and call it the action of "terrorists" and "animals" is seeing reality through clouded glasses. Power concedes nothing without a demand. And let us not 4get that ur "founding fathers" were once seen in the same light by their former colonizers. Bottom line....Israel from its illegal inception has violated international law and the human rights of those they encountered in that region. THEY set the stage 4 this continuing cycle of violence. And no, im not "anti-semitic"...i have lively debates with friends and co-workers of the Jewish faith all the time; however, there is a distinct difference between Judaism and the people of the Jewish faith and the Zionists who control the Israeli government and its geo-strategic policies. And those policies r about 2 open up a deadly and perilous can of worms 4 that region and the world. How sad and tragic this whole thing is 2 witness. At the end of the day as someone intimated above it is all about control of resources and the vast energy reserves of that region. And i still feel that this current violence is aimed at provoking Iran through attacking Hezbollah and threatening Syria and not about Israeli self defence. Believe me Hezbollah and the Palestinians in Gaza have nowhere near the capacity or capability of seriously threatening Israel as a nation. Thats a joke. No, they have their eyes on a much bigger perceived threat in Iran. So, yes, im in the minority here but this is how i c it and i believe justly so. And to J....3way?..hahaha...not hardly son, u and noone else has ripped nothing here. 8) 8)

Who would agree with my definition of an intelligent person as someone who accepts the possibility that he/she could be wrong?

Surely the people who think they have the definitive story are closer to the definition of fools?

I think there's a possibility that either someone has swallowed the clever propaganda, is stupidly racist or is just stupid, in order to believe the Israelis are simply victims of undeserved Arab hostility.

So please, instead of 'sound bites', read the Cactus48 article and then come back with comment.

At least then we can have an intelligent debate.

Dear B&B,

Once again you're wrong. I did read a good chunk of the Cactus 48 article. Nothing particularly new here. As far as quoting my sources, I'm not going to spend umteen hours looking up sources for you. Documentation to argue any side you'd like is readily available. Just look at your documentation.
Might I suggest that the people you know from the UAE are part of the problem, not the solution. As a westerner, try walking down a street in Egypt. You'll have a following of beggars in no time.

Black and Blue,
Thanks 4 posting that Cactus48 link...but in this environment i doubt it will do much good. Most folks opinions r already made up and heavily influenced by the pro-israel corporate media.

Dear gbert52

Either you are a very busy person or that was a very poor attempt at a debate.

Allow me to quote you; "Nothing particularly new here"

May I suggest that history isn't supposed to be new?

The point was to read it, point out what you disagreed with and why you disagreed with it.
In addition, posting your sources would allow the reader to ascertain the likelyhood of bias.

It's interesting that you point out that there are sides.
In fact, I am only interested in the truth. Are you?

As to your other comments; What have beggars in Egypt got to do with the UAE? The word is 'Umpteen'.

That Rupert Murdoch is happy to support whoever agrees to support him.

J, keep talking my man. 4 the more u talk the more u expose 2 all here the racist and idiot that u r. And that u speak from emotion and not reason and intellect and accurate historical data. "All arabs and muslims are animals"....this is ur belief irregardless of the Israel argument. Just b honest. 8) 8)

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Goodness me! I would have to go a long way to read such rubbish! All the way to the 'Good ole USA'.

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Interesting way to begin a debate. That said, allow me to respond to your selective, ahistorical interpretation of the facts.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

Arab citizens of Israel, who makeup roughly 20 percent of its population, have more rights and greater representation (Arab Democratic Party, etc.) in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime. Note. I’m not talking about non-Israeli citizens in Gaza and the West Bank."

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What does this mean exactly?

Here's another take on the situation;
Founded in 1988 by Abdel Wahab Daroushe, a former Labor Party Knesset member, the Arab Democratic Party (ADP) won one seat in 1988 Knesset elections and 2 in the 1992 elections. Its platform focuses on achievement of full equality for Israeli Arabs and on full Israeli withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, as well as the establishment of a Palestinian state. In 1996 and 1999, Daroushe agreed to participate in a joint electoral list with Islamic groups.

In other words, Israeli Arabs are not considered equal to Israeli Jews in Israel. It's written into their 'constitution'.

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The Arab Democratic Party was used as a single example of the fact that Arabs have more rights in a Jewish state than they do in any of their own nations. Regarding this, Wikipedia states the following:

Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process. Unlike Jewish citizens, they cannot be drafted into the Israeli army, but they may serve voluntarily. There are currently nine Israeli Arabs sitting as members of the 17th Knesset out of a total of 120 seats, and there is one Arab judge, Justice Salim Jubran, sitting in the Supreme Court of Israel. Ariel Sharon's 2001 cabinet included one Israeli Arab minister, Salah Tarif, and in March 2005, Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior. Arabic is one of Israel's official languages.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

Israel is, and has long been, the only true democracy in the Middle East.

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If the Israeli Arabs are not considered equal, it is not a "True Democracy" Full stop.

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First off, your inability to name a single Arab or Middle Eastern democracy, outside of Israel, is duly noted. Second, given that your previous point, upon which this point depends, has been proven a farce, I think we can just disregard this one as well.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quinn

There are more new books published each year in the tiny state of Israel than the rest of the Middle East combined. This shows you the cultural difference between what is produced in the region's only democracy and its ubiquitous authoritarian regimes."

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It is entirely possible that if the Arab countries were not kept in a constant stae of turmoil by certain western countries in cahoots with 'Israel', they could use their resources elsewhere.
But Israel and the USA love to develop and sell weapons.

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This point is so ridiculously uninformed that, frankly, I’m not entirely sure how to respond. To being with, the US, to its own discredit, is responsible for shoring up the Gulf Monarchies, Turkey, and Egypt, to name but a few Middle Eastern states. While the US has acted to destabilize states like Lebanon (until recently a Syrian client state), Syria, and Iran, the US (and the West as a whole) has done far more to keep regimes intact and their economies functioning than it has ever done to cause the opposite. Otherwise, we would be threatening the oil upon which Japan and Europe are particularly dependent (much more so than the US).

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quinn

Palestine means "Land of the Philistines." The Philistines were a colony of Mycenean Greeks who fought against the ancient Israelites. The Philistines are no longer there, the people of Israel still are (despite the occasional deportation). In fact, their presence in the region predates by a substantial time period both Islam and anything that could be considered a recognizable Arab culture – at least in the sense of the word "Arab" as we know it today.

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What has this got to do with anything?

You're conveniently forgetting to mention how the state of Israel was created by terrorism. Yes, Menachem Begin was a terrorist. Do a Google search if you don't believe me.
A Jewish minority was transformed into a Jewish majority. I don't know of too many people who would tolerate that situation.

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What does this have to do with anything? The Arab world frequently claims that the Arabs have a historical right to that land and that the Israelis are simply invaders. As previously noted, the fact is that the people of Israel resided there long before there was ever such a thing as a Muslim or an Arab (in the modern sense of the word). Giving a minority population the right to settle a small parcel of land on which it has both a historical claim and presence is not unreasonable or without international precedent.

So far as early terrorist activities by Israel’s founders are concerned, the activities of the Haganah are well known and not a matter of dispute. They don’t get a pass for it. It is, however, important to note that the Haganah’s terrorist activities were overwhelmingly directed at the British military, not civilians.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quinn

As previously noted, today’s Palestinians are mostly Egyptians and Jordanians, not a culturally distinct people. Still, if you really want to look for a “Palestinian State,” you don’t need to look any further than Jordan, a state with a 70% Palestinian population"

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If those figures are correct, could that be something to do with the fact that Jordan absorbed a substantial amount of the people fleeing from Israeli terrorism?

Again, look at the facts;
"Since the return of over 300,000 Palestinians from Kuwait in 1991, between 45% and 70% of all Jordanians are Palestinians from the West Bank. Although Palestinians suffer from discrimination and a large number still live in camps, Jordan has granted full citizenship to the Palestinian refugees and their descendents."
"About 3 million persons registered as Palestinian refugees and displaced persons reside in Jordan, most as citizens."

So what is Quinn's point? .

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So far as the accuracy of the figure is concerned, the most reliable number is 70%. I can cite many supporting sources, but for now let’s stick to just one:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...57C0A961958260.

As for my point, once again, you seem slow on the uptake. The widely held Arab view that the Palestinians don’t have a homeland is false. If you don’t believe me, why not listen to the late King Hussein:

"Palestine and Jordan were both (by then) under British Mandate, but as my grandfather pointed out in his memoirs, they were hardly separate countries. Transjordan being to the east of the River Jordan, it formed in a sense, the interior of Palestine."
-King Hussein, writing in his Memoirs

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

In the last ten or so years, Israel has gone to great lengths to make peace with its aggressive neighbors:

A. Under Ehud Barak, Arafat and the Palestinians were offered peace on the terms that they had long claimed would be necessary for a lasting peace with Israel. Despite this, Arafat refused peace. When asked by then President Clinton “how he could be so stupid,” Arafat is reported to have replied “I can’t; they’ll kill me.” He was referring to small hard line elements within his own party who wanted the conflict to continue indefinitely, not matter what terms were offered".

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This just pure cr*p.

An excerpt from Wikipedia;
"Clayton Swisher, who was present at the summit, rebuts the conventional wisdom about it in The Truth About Camp David (http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski36.html). Swisher, a young scholar based in Washington, attempts to approach Camp David objectively and concludes that the Israelis and the Americans were at least as guilty as the Palestinians for the collapse. MJ Rosenberg of Israel Policy Forum, a pro-Israel think-tank in Washington, calls Swisher's book "the single best volume we are likely to have on the Camp David failure." Alternative points of view are offered in books by Dennis Ross and by President Clinton himself. Ross and Clinton, who were also both in attendance, place the blame largely on Arafat." .

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To begin with, the fact that you didn’t even attempt to refute the other two widely accepted points is quite telling. So far as your rebuttal to point A is concerned, the fact that you chose to use such poorly supported data – in the face of overwhelming proof to the contrary – reveals your own degree of bias. By any measure, the concessions offered by Israel were tremendous. The incentives offered by the Clinton Administration to induce Arafat to sign were similarly generous. What did Arafat offer? Nothing! His continued demand for “the right of return” would have meant the destruction of Israel. Everyone, including many Arabs, saw it as little more than a ploy to scuttle the talks. Even Nabil Amir, a former minister with the Palestinian Authority blames Arafat for the failure of the talks. Trust me, you really don't want to get into any debate that would require you to defend the criminal ineptitude of Arafat's leaderhip; you will loose – badly.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Yes, I signed up just to reply to Quinn post. Personally, I found it disgusting.

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So far as any degree of disgust on your part is concerned, I suggest you reserve it for consideration of your own biased and uninformed point of view. Oh, and just so you know, no one is stating that Israel is completely blameless or that it, as a state, has not committed transgressions of its own (allowing the Sabra and Shatila massacres, etc.). Still, given a choice between a vibrant democracy and a sea of authoritarian (and often fundamentalist) regimes, there is no choice. If you don’t agree, try spending some time in the Middle East, particularly in the Arab states.

-Quinn

P.S. My apologies to everyone for such an incredibly long post, but there just wasn't any more succinct way to make my point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J

obviously im speaking emotionally and trying to make a point...yes, ur right there are some decent, cultured and civil muslims, but by and large theyre overshadowed by the majority of muslims who wouldnt shed a tear if another 6 million were killed...bottom line u have a billion muslims and a few million jews, now take the education level, inventions, arts, everything that these 2 cultures have contributed through out history, it would be a joke to compare them...there is a reason for that no? u cant blame the state of israel for the laughable comparison...its very simple...on one side u have people hell bent on educating their children, promoting justice throughout the world, being a vibrant and cultured people, while the other side is just a fuckin mess..theres no nice way to say it..be honest...u cant blame jews for all the worlds problems..its been done through out history...theres a reason why mlk jr walked to the podium with rabbis accompanying him and not sheiks, theres a reason why every philanthropic organization in the world has jews on its board..why the aclu, regardless of what u think of them, is littered with jews, cmon now..i feel retarded arguing the point...u must be such a rabid anti semite to not see who is right and who is wrong in the middle east...be honest, are u late on ur rent and ur jewish landlord is evicting u? it really seems like it...does it kill u that my grandparents had their entire families wiped out half a century ago, survived, struggled, my dad came to this country with 200 bucks in his pocket yet i went through law school and all my brother and sisters own busineses and million dollar homes...does it kill u???? we didnt get any special dispensation or privilages in this country...nothing..we sturggled, faced discrimination and fought through it and made it...stop blaming people for the problems of the world...look inward...islam is a hatefilled unprogressive backwards system of living that keeps its populace in the dark...how the fuck u expect a civilization to flourish if the women are in beekeeper suits and the whole moral fabric of society is still in the dark ages...cmon...just be fuckin honest, u dont like jews...not many people do...sometimes i dont...but be fuckin honest...israel is half a century old and leading the world in many technology areas and like i said tel aviv is something unrivaled in the middle east with all the fuckin oil, money and people to put it to shame...but theres a reason wh yisraelis drive mercedes, go to the nicest lounges in the world and are a striving people while the billion arabs around them fuck camels...yeah, they do it cause israel is occumpying land....before 1948 they were all in labs, discovring cures for cancer and just living it up..hell u should see how gorgeous the area was before the jews showed up...haha...u fool

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Brilliant post, J...while I can understand why, and how great the need is for the law that you once mentioned that you currently practice...I bet that you would make one hell of a defense attorney...or prosecutor for that matter...

EDIT- I think that it's a given that the neocon chickenhawks in the whitehouse will use this as a smokescreen/justification for the fiasco in Iraq...when they should have been focusing on Iran and N Korea, not to mention China...

Thanks for your reply, Quinn.

Dear, oh dear, J is not covering himself in glory is he? What an embarrassment.

Anyway, back to the debate.

"Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process."

That might be the 'official' policy.

Please read this; http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/...sraeliarab.htm


Why do I need to name an Arab democracy? Does it justify Israeli actions?


"Otherwise, we would be threatening the oil upon which Japan and Europe are particularly dependent (much more so than the US)."

Clearly you are joking. See how you'd suffer if you had to pay European prices.
The US is happy with anyone who supports it's policies and will do anything to sabotage those that do not.

"So far as early terrorist activities by Israel’s founders are concerned, the activities of the Haganah are well known and not a matter of dispute. They don’t get a pass for it. It is, however, important to note that the Haganah’s terrorist activities were overwhelmingly directed at the British military, not civilians. "




The bombing of the King David Hotel in Palestine on July 22, 1946, which killed 91 persons (mostly civilians) was an Irgun operation in which the Haganah participated.


I'm not quite sure why you are banging on about a Palestinian homeland.
My point is that the population is swelled by millions of refugees. Those refugees have been given Jordanian citizenship. so they are Jordanians. What is your point?


"ineptitude of Arafat's leaderhip; you will loose – badly. " What?

Anyway, I didn't address the other two points because I felt that I had already made my point.

I can take a look at them now if you like.


C.
"Syria had long claimed that if Israel would return the Golan Heights, it would make peace with Israel. Once again, under Ehud Barak, Israel offered the return of the Golan Heights. The Syrians countered by stating that, not only did they want the return of all of their original land, but they also wanted new land that Syria had never owned. Not surprisingly, peace talks broke down."


That's not quite the case. Israel wanted to offer most of the Golan Heights, Syria wanted Israel to draw back to the 1967 borders.(Remember that this is land illegally occupied by Israel)


How would you feel if Canada grabbed the state of Washington and then offered you half of it back on condition that you shut up about it?

You'd capitulate quietly would you?


B.

I don't know that much about Hizbollah, but it's good that the Israelis don't have it all their own way.

They would like everyone to stay quiet while they commit illegality after illegality.

I'm happy that you mention that Israel is not blameless.

Maybe you can make a point of mentioning the large number of UN Security Council resolutions against Israel?

The illegal occupation of land contrary to the terms of the Laws of war, such as the Fourth Geneva Convention?

Either way, I do appreciate your attempts at having a debate. More so than the ridiculous rantings of J and his ilk.

J

Obviously, the ability to read isn't one of your strong points.

The first line of Quinn's post reads; "Interesting way to begin a debate. That said, allow me to respond to your selective, ahistorical interpretation of the facts."


Please refrain from aligning yourself with Quinn. At least he attempts to put together a cogent argument.

We may disagree, but he appears to believe in what he writes and at least takes the time and trouble to post clearly and link to sources, at least on occasion.

Your post reminds me of a chimpanzee who has been taught to write.

Resident Ballbuster? More like Resident Idiot.

No, it's because what is considered intelligent for a Chimpanzee, isn't considered intelligent for humans.

You appear to have the intelligence of a Chimpanzee.

Chimpanzees, at least, have the redeeming feature of appearing cute and likeable.


If you like anything like the personality you project.....

Anyway...time to move on. Only joined as I couldn't let what was written go unchallenged.
Anyone who's interested in in the subject, can check out the cactus48 link that I posted earlier.

So far no one has challenged the articles on partiality or accuracy.
So, it may be a good place to start.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process.

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That might be the 'official' policy.

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First, you state that “Israeli Arabs are not considered equal to Israeli Jews in Israel. It's written into their 'constitution.’” Now that this has been exposed for the complete falsehood that it is, you want to fall back upon some argument about a theorized unofficial policy – for which you provide scant evidence. Even the article you posted a link to is weak in that its author is complaining that Arab political freedoms are being curtailed because they can’t dispute the essentially democratic and Jewish nature of the state of Israel. So what, they should be allowed to set up an Arab Islamic theocracy in the state of Israel? It’s a ridiculous argument to cover for the fact that your last one so utterly failed.

Once again, my original point stands: Arab citizens of Israel . . . have more rights and greater representation in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

Otherwise, we would be threatening the oil upon which Japan and Europe are particularly dependent (much more so than the US)."

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Clearly you are joking. See how you'd suffer if you had to pay European prices.
The US is happy with anyone who supports it's policies and will do anything to sabotage those that do not.

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Fact: Europe and Japan depend upon the Middle East for their oil to a much greater degree than the US (Only 10% of US oil comes from the Persian Gulf, versus 30% of European oil and 80-90% of Japanese oil). This is why the Europeans (particularly the French and British) and Japanese have worked with the US to shore up so many Middle Eastern regimes. Oh, and for what it’s worth, Europeans pay higher prices for their gas because of taxes imposed by their respective governments.

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

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Originally Posted by Quinn

So far as early terrorist activities by Israel’s founders are concerned, the activities of the Haganah are well known and not a matter of dispute. They don’t get a pass for it. It is, however, important to note that the Haganah’s terrorist activities were overwhelmingly directed at the British military, not civilians. "

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The bombing of the King David Hotel in Palestine on July 22, 1946, which killed 91 persons (mostly civilians) was an Irgun operation in which the Haganah participated.

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Once again, neither condoned nor disputed. What also remains undisputed is the fact that the vast majority of the Haganah’s activities were directed against the British military, not civilians. This incident is widely regarded as an exception, not the rule. This stands into direct contrast to a group like Hamas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

I'm not quite sure why you are banging on about a Palestinian homeland. My point is that the population is swelled by millions of refugees. Those refugees have been given Jordanian citizenship. so they are Jordanians. What is your point?

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My point was clearly explained and was then elaborated upon based on a question you posed. If you still don’t get it, perhaps some sort of diagram involving the use of stick figures is in order.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quinn

Syria had long claimed that if Israel would return the Golan Heights, it would make peace with Israel. Once again, under Ehud Barak, Israel offered the return of the Golan Heights. The Syrians countered by stating that, not only did they want the return of all of their original land, but they also wanted new land that Syria had never owned. Not surprisingly, peace talks broke down."

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That's not quite the case. Israel wanted to offer most of the Golan Heights, Syria wanted Israel to draw back to the 1967 borders.(Remember that this is land illegally occupied by Israel)

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The adjective “most” is correct. However, nobody regards Israel’s request for an early warning station to be posted on Mount Hermon as unreasonable, particularly given Syria’s history of launching surprise attacks from that geographic locale. Israel’s request for a security zone around the Lake of Tiberias (150 meters wide) was, given Syria’s history of intentionally disrupting the lake’s flow into Israel, similarly reasonable. Over time (remember these negotiations took place during the existence of several different administrations), Syria has asked for a number of concessions, some reasonable, some unreasonable. My favorite was when Syrian negotiators took the position that the borders should be drawn according to the farthest point that Syria’s artillery was able to reach. Hey, what’s a twelve to twenty mile wide swath of territory between friends.

Regarding the legality of Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights, it’s a mixed bag. Israeli settlements there are clearly illegal. Israel’s occupation of Syrian land is, in the absence of a peace treaty, legal. Any outright annexation, not backed up by a multilateral treaty, would be illegal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackandblue

I don't know that much about Hizbollah, but it's good that the Israelis don't have it all their own way.

They would like everyone to stay quiet while they commit illegality after illegality.

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Take time to read about Hezbollah and its conflict with Israel. You will find that Hezbollah has less justification for its continued aggression against Israel than any Arab faction. These days, Hezbollah is little more than a proxy army for Iran and Syria, both of whom are incapable of challenging Israel directly in a conventional military conflict.

So far as any discussion of legal matters is concerned, I can find just as many violations of international law on the part of the Arabs as you can by Israel – if not more.

In the end, J is quite right, this hasn’t been a debate. You’ve failed to adequately support the majority of your own points, let alone effectively challenged my own. Then again, given the weakness that any moderately objective analysis of the facts lends to the Arab position, this is understandable. For now, I am done as well, feeling quite comfortable that the weakness of your arguments has substantially reinforced the validity of my original points.

-Quinn

Wow folks, isnt it just hilarious how when anyone dares question the motives and/or policies of the Israeli government that they r automatically labeled as Arab/Muslim sympathizers and haters of people of the Jewish faith. Wow J...get a grip. That's some real psychologically f'd up stuff. And yes, while European Jews were persucuted at the hands of other Europeans and were victims of a terrible holocaust they r not the only ones in history 2 suffer a great calamity. African people, during the Middle Passage alone, saw millions of their ilk kidnapped/sold, killed, molested, raped and made 2 suffer all manner of brutal injustices over a much longer period of time. Denied the right 2 have families, to read, write and become educated. To pursue the "American Dream". And yet we press on and overcome. So spare me the pity party. Yes, the people of the Jewish faith have made great strides in the liberal arts and sciences and have contributed all manner of good things 2 world civilization but they r not the only ones nor the first. People of the Muslim faith, the Bhudist faith, the Hindu faith, the Christian faith, indigenous beliefs, pagans, agnostics and athiests all have contributed 2 the evolution/advancement of the human family in one way or another over the course of history. And most have also committed atrocities. Study world history more closely my man and dont get so carried away with emotions that u have 2 resort 2 name calling and negative characterizations. If u r indeed a lawyer then u should understand the rules of proper discourse.

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As previously noted, the fact is that the people of Israel resided there long before there was ever such a thing as a Muslim or an Arab (in the modern sense of the word). Giving a minority population the right to settle a small parcel of land on which it has both a historical claim and presence is not unreasonable or without international precedent.

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Quinn, the historical Hebrew Israelites who "settled"(this is debatable) in what was then called Canaan and the European Jews who currently argue a historical claim r not one and the same. Their argument is not based on archeological, anthropological or historic data but more so on socio-religious documents. Biblical myths. If u can seperate urself from the Judeo-Christian frame of mind 4 just a second and study an accurate and unbiased history of the region then this u would c. Actually, both Jews and Arabs r relatively newcomers to that land. But i'll leave that alone as it is not really that germain to the current situation at hand. How is invading unannounced a sovereign nation in pursuit of a "rogue" segment of that nation's society and not openly declaring war with said nation within the rules of international law? How can this been seen in any other light than outright agression? There r clear procedures for declaring war against any nation that threatens the national security of another. Why wasnt this done? Is this Israels' version of the "art of preemption"? If the Cuban government were 2 hurl bombs n2 Miami in pursuit of Cuban exiles harboured here who continually violate Cuban airspace and threaten its society, how would this been seen by the U.S. and the world? Would it not b seen as an illegal and overt act of agression and a threat 2 our national security? The UN security council would immediately order the Cubans 2 cease and desist and probably look 2 impose sanctions. Anyone not wearing blinders can clearly c there is a double standard at play here. The world is doing the people of Lebanon a grave injustice by not putting all the pressure needed on Israel 2 cease and desist this invasion or legally go through the proper channels and declare war.

Dear Quinn

Clearly you missed the irony of the statement, "It's written into their 'constitution.’”.

Israel doesn't have a constitution. It has instead a number of 'Basic Laws'.

Maybe you'd like to read some of them....

Israel - Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation 1994

Adopted on: 9 March 1994 }
{ ICL Document Status: 9 March 1994 }

Section 1 Basic principles
Basic human rights in Israel are based on the recognition of the value of the human being, and the sanctity of his life and his freedom, and these will be respected in the spirit of the principles of the Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel (5718-1948).

Section 2 Purpose
The purpose of this Basic Law is to uphold the freedom of occupation, in order to anchor the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state in a Basic Law.

Section 3 Freedom of occupation
Every Israel national or resident has the right to engage in any occupation, profession or trade.

Section 4 Violation of freedom
There shall be no violation of the freedom of occupation except by a law that accords with the values of the State of Israel, enacted for a proper purpose and to an extent no greater than required, or by such a law enacted with explicit authorization therein.

Section 5 Application
All governmental authorities are bound to respect the freedom of occupation of all Israel nationals and residents.

Section 6 Stability
This Basic Law cannot be varied, suspended or made subject to conditions by emergency regulations.

Section 7 Entrenchment
This Basic Law shall not be varied except by a Basic Law passed by a majority of the members of the Knesset.

Section 8 Validity of exceptional laws
The provisions of any law which are inconsistent with the freedom of occupation shall remain in effect, even if it does not conform with Section 4, if it is included in a law adopted by a majority of the Knesset with the explicit comment that it is valid despite the provisions of this Basic Law; such a law shall remain in effect for four years from the date of its commencement, unless an earlier date is fixed.

Section 9 Repeal
The Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (5752 - 1992) is hereby repealed.

Section 10 Provisional measure
The provisions of any enactment in force prior to the commencement of this Basic Law or the Basic Law repealed in Section 9, [which are inconsistent with its provisions] shall remain in effect no longer than two years from the date of commencement of this Basic Law, unless repealed sooner; however, such provisions shall be construed in the spirit of the provisions of this Basic Law.

I'll alow you to draw your own conclusions.

What's this? "Even the article you posted a link to is weak in that its author is complaining that Arab political freedoms are being curtailed because they can’t dispute the essentially democratic and Jewish nature of the state of Israel."

You have a habit of ignoring salient points whilst clinging on to irrelevant ones.

The question was asked, "How can a state that defines itself as essentially Jewish also characterize itself as a democracy when it has a sizable non-Jewish minority?"

It's weak in your eyes because you wish it to be so.


Next;

Though the US may not receive the majority of it's oil supply from the Middle East, it depends on security of supply. If there was no cheap oil coming from the Middle East, we would all be scrambling over smaller resources. Maybe then we would all see the true face of America.

"This is why the Europeans (particularly the French and British) and Japanese have worked with the US to shore up so many Middle Eastern regimes."

No argument from me there. In doing so, have created a veritable Hornet's nest.

Israel has a policy of misinformation. I know, for instance, that when a bus load of soldiers is blown up in Israel, it is immediately reported as a bus load of civilians.
Even if the true report comes out later, the damage has already been done.
I've been to Israel. I've sat in restaurant where boys in civilian clothes sit talking to their girlfriends, with rifles hanging from their shoulders.

So, who are the civilians and who are the soldiers.

Israel tried to con us by telling us the Arabs target children, whilst they didn't.
Well we saw that was a lie, after Ariel Sharon inflamed the Arabs in the year 2000.
We know that they discourage reporters and film crews in the refugee camps, so that they can routinely murder, detain and torture at will.
We know that they have targeted and murdered English peace activist Tom Hurndall. We know that they targeted and murdered a British Journalist, James Miller. We know that they target and murder Palestinian journalists.
We know that they show complete disregard for any lives but their own.

They shelled families enjoying their time on a beach. Is that not terror. Murdered them. Hardly a murmur from them. But look at what happens when a soldier is merely snatched. They create all out war.

They like to portray themselves as victims. I know that is not true.

(Be aware that I use the term Israelis in a general way)


Next;

I'm still not quite sure why you are banging on about a Palestinian homeland.

Is that your justification for the Israeli incursion onto someone else's land?


I don't remember posing any questions about a Palestinian homeland.

Maybe you'd like to pinpoint that for me.


I know that you would like to regard this as a debate won.

But consider this, I have begun from a point of refuting your statements.

This in itself seeks only to restore balance, but doesn't go far enough in explaining quite why and how this situation has arisen.


That is why I posted the article on Cactus48. So that people can read and decide for themselves, what they believe is true.

No point in banging on about whether Israel is a democracy or not, when it doesn't address the central issues.
Does being a democracy prevent a country from murdering tens of thousands of innocent people?
We know that it doesn't, so we don't need to waste time discussing these things.

Now, why don't we debate on the Cactus 48 article?

Blackandblue,

Good natured ribbing aside, I do appreciate both the manner of your presentation and your efforts to support your conclusions, particularly given the weighty nature of the topic at hand. In all seriousness, I would be delighted to continue our debate on Monday (possibly even tomorrow) as this is the first weekend that I am taking any time off in nearly a month. Until then, have a good weekend.

-Quinn

Funny how blackandblue skirts the issue of trying to name an Arab democracy.

Quinn, you nailed it in your first post! Thanks for stating the facts and thanks to all for being an island in the sea of internet anti-Semitism.

Obviously blackand blue will just be that in the face putting forward his lame and baseless arguments when the facts have already been stated. Almost like talking to Aedan!

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=9724

http://dl.zvuki.ru/2/2644/56/1.ra

just fyi 8)

Actually...It occurred to me that one of our resident scholars has the big picture all figured out...

http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...t=8302&start=0

http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...t=9436&start=0

twowaybro,

you can't complain like this,

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Wow folks, isnt it just hilarious how when anyone dares question the motives and/or policies of the Israeli government that they r automatically labeled as Arab/Muslim sympathizers and haters of people of the Jewish faith.

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and then refer to HA as mostly a "pro-Israel lobby". I don't think there's any lobby here except for more hot TS's. If we're that politicized, I think we should take an official stand in the next elections. The US needs a thrid party to break things up; maybe HA is up to the job!!!!!!

CA

CAPTAIN! CAPTAIN! THINGS ARE GETTING HOT IN THIS REGION! NO ONE THERE IS INTERESTED IN WHAT THE FUCK THE OTHER HAS TO SAY. THEY'RE ALL A BUNCH OF FANATICS WITH NO OUTSIDE INTERESTS FOR THEIR OWN ENTERTAINMENT! IT'S A RELIGIOUS THING OR SOMETHING, IT'S LIKE THE WORLD'S GONE RETARDED AND IT'S ESCALATING! IF NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T STEP UP THE WHOLE THING'S GOING TO BLOOWWW!

Everyone seems to miss the big underlying issue in the palestinian isreali conflict. It's unemployment. This goes for pretty much the entire islam v west conflict. the economies in arab countries are shit, unemployment runs over 25 percent and up to 70 percent . Young males are prone to violence and attracted to extreme groups when they are otherwise unoccupied., just look at germany in the 1930's. the arabs have no jobs, no prospect of a job or future and so they are understandably angry. the hard line clerics give them a purpose and something to look foward to, (paradise). people who have jobs arent throwing rocks or burning american flags.