Arizona Bill Would Restrict Bathrooms by Birth Gender

Arizona Bill Would Restrict Bathrooms by Birth Gender

Anti-transgender bill would fine violators up to $2.5K

(Newser) – Arizona's House will today debate a bill that would make it illegal to enter a public bathroom, shower, or dressing room designated for a gender not listed on your birth certificate. The bill is an apparent response to the anti-discrimination law Phoenix passed last week that would allow transgender people to use their preferred bathroom. The new bill's sponsor, Rep. John Kavanagh, says it's "unacceptable" for a man who merely "thinks of himself" as a woman to use their facilities. "If you're male, you stick to the men's room," he tells KPHO.

The bill would make using the wrong bathroom punishable by a fine of up to $2,500, AZ Family reports. The House Appropriations Committee will take up the bill today. The bill has sparked outrage from transgender activists; Equality Arizona released a statement yesterday calling it "a disgusting invasion of privacy," one that could make criminals of women who duck into men's bathrooms to avoid long lines, the Arizona Daily Sun reports. (Kavanagh says police will "use discretion" in those circumstances.) Laurie Roberts at the Arizona Republic decries the bill as ridiculous. "Forget about showing your birth certificate to vote," she writes. "You soon may need to tote the thing around in order to use the bathroom."



http://www.newser.com/story/164767/a...th-gender.html

This shall not pass! $2,500 is a ludicrous amount to fine anyone for using the "incorrect" restroom.

Yeah, because I'm totally gonna go in the men's room and sit down on the toilet in front of the bar full of guys who've been drooling over my ass since I walked in.

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Originally Posted by Ms.Stepford

Yeah, because I'm totally gonna go in the men's room and sit down on the toilet in front of the bar full of guys who've been drooling over my ass since I walked in.

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I second that! LOL :iagree:
Yes I will also go in after you and tell th guys we are taking over their facilities.

Yup. Sorry gents, but we've gotta commandeer the room for official lady business.

I've said this before, in principle, I don't think someone should be able to use a bathroom other than that of their birth gender, just because they want to or state that they have the right.

It's all very well for you girls who are true transsexuals, live as girls, identify fully as woman and have either had hormone therapy or surgery but what about those that will also demand the same rights but are just transvestites or crossdressers (doing it for a sexual kick). With no way for the establishments or the authorities to prove that anyone is a transsexual (it's unable to be proved on looks alone as we all know some transsexuals who look like men in a dress), then they have to have a law that draws the line somewhere. I don't know what AZ law is on ID's but perhaps if you do have an ID which says "female" then that would seem a good way to differentiate.

The easiest way to manage this, would be to have seperate Male, Female and Unisex bathrooms. Most coffee shops have one bathroom which is shared and all shopping malls and public establishments usually have a disabled/baby room which is unisex.

This may sound harsh but I don't believe that women and young girls should be put at risk or embarressed by people using the women's restrooms who clearly should not be there.

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I don't know what AZ law is on ID's but perhaps if you do have an ID which says "female" then that would seem a good way to differentiate.

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That should actually work, if Arizona has similar policies regarding gender marker on licenses and non-driver IDs as New York. If you're under a doctor's care and that doctor will state that "one gender predominates over the other," that's the gender they'll put on your ID. I think very few part-timers are going to get 'F's on their licenses.

Some CD/TVs will still get away with using the ladies,' without causing a disturbance, and I guess if they do, they do. I've had an 'F' on my ID for a few years, but I've never actually been asked.

The fact that they expect people to carry their birth certificates around is really stupid. I think they'll realized that when the vital records department is overrun by increasing numbers of people who've lost them and need replacements -including many natal women who have some questionable masculine features and have to deal with embarrassing confrontations with overzealous shop managers and law enforcement.

This legislation is flawed on so many levels, and should it pass, it won't last long. I can't believe that these lawmakers can't think it through.

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Originally Posted by seanchai

I've said this before, in principle, I don't think someone should be able to use a bathroom other than that of their birth gender, just because they want to or state that they have the right.

It's all very well for you girls who are true transsexuals, live as girls, identify fully as woman and have either had hormone therapy or surgery but what about those that will also demand the same rights but are just transvestites or crossdressers (doing it for a sexual kick). With no way for the establishments or the authorities to prove that anyone is a transsexual (it's unable to be proved on looks alone as we all know some transsexuals who look like men in a dress), then they have to have a law that draws the line somewhere. I don't know what AZ law is on ID's but perhaps if you do have an ID which says "female" then that would seem a good way to differentiate.

The easiest way to manage this, would be to have seperate Male, Female and Unisex bathrooms. Most coffee shops have one bathroom which is shared and all shopping malls and public establishments usually have a disabled/baby room which is unisex.

This may sound harsh but I don't believe that women and young girls should be put at risk or embarressed by people using the women's restrooms who clearly should not be there.

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But it's NEVER clean no matter what.

I developed breasts at puberty. In the days when my public persona was "male" I would have issues being in the men's room. Even standing at a urinal, people would double check the door. On a few occasions, I actually feared for my safety. I would have KILLED for single occupancy restrooms, But most building don't have them -- particularly in areas where real estate is at a premium.

In those days I never would have dreamed of using the ladies because I publicly "identified" as male. By the time I transitioned, NJ had begun allowing gender marker changes in licenses. But had I transitioned a year earlier I wouldn't have had that option... and therein lies the problem with your thoughts.

In some states, it is not possible to alter your gender marker without SRS. A passable transwoman, with no options to alter her IDs is at great personal risk walking into a men's room.

A transwoman is more likely to be harmed in a men's room than a woman be harmed by a transsexual in a ladies room. Despite all the fear mongering on this issue, there is not a single documented case of a transsexual molesting anyone in a ladies room.

Never been asked but having my gender marker recently changed on my id is a small relief.

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Originally Posted by seanchai

... they have to have a law that draws the line somewhere. I don't know what AZ law is on ID's but perhaps if you do have an ID which says "female" then that would seem a good way to differentiate.

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Maybe you're joking or typed too quickly? Because that's completely ridiculous. No one has to have a law for who goes in a bathroom. Societies have worked fine for millennia without that. We have too many laws already, an overly punitive a culture, too many people in prison, and $2500 is an batshit insane penalty for something like that.

Sometimes my girlfriend ducks in a men's room if there's no space in the ladies. Sometimes I knock on an empty women's room if the men's room has no towels. The idea that ID's are going to be checked before entering bathrooms is so laughably infeasible... anyone who thinks that's going to happen all over a state has just lost touch with reality.

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Originally Posted by scroller

Maybe you're joking or typed too quickly? Because that's completely ridiculous. No one has to have a law for who goes in a bathroom. Societies have worked fine for millennia without that. We have too many laws already, an overly punitive a culture, too many people in prison, and $2500 is an batshit insane penalty for something like that.

Sometimes my girlfriend ducks in a men's room if there's no space in the ladies. Sometimes I knock on an empty women's room if the men's room has no towels. The idea that ID's are going to be checked before entering bathrooms is so laughably infeasible... anyone who thinks that's going to happen all over a state has just lost touch with reality.

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I'm not joking or typing too quickly, perhaps you better slow down and re-read it before you continue to embarrass yourself. I never stated that it would be checked before you went in but if they want to create a law that would only allow "women" into bathrooms, then if a TG was stopped or the police called having her female ID should negate any further prosecutions based on her "birth gender".

I'm fairly sure if a man enters a woman's bathroom then security or police would be called so that law is probably already in place. I certainly don't want a guy in a dress following my wife/mother/daughter/friend into the girls bathroom just because they feel they have the legal right to do it.

As someone who has managed large teams in 3 companies in the FTSE 100, I would have to agree with Seanchai.

I consider myself a trans ally, but this is an área where there is potentially a massive risk of danger for the trans community. I couldn´t support a birth certificate test, or a driving licence test. I had too many female team members who would have been seriously upset to propose that.

It might be a different test, such as a diagnosis of GID. Or there may be a better test. But not - I say I am trans therefore I am trans. You have to come up with something that passes the 'hearts and minds' test of the many females in your team.

On a lighter note I had a female friend who ran marathons etc, which requires going to the loo shortly before the start of race. She always used the men's as the q for the ladies was infinitely long.

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Originally Posted by seanchai

I'm not joking or typing too quickly, perhaps you better slow down and re-read it before you continue to embarrass yourself. I never stated that it would be checked before you went in but if they want to create a law that would only allow "women" into bathrooms, then if a TG was stopped or the police called having her female ID should negate any further prosecutions based on her "birth gender".

I'm fairly sure if a man enters a woman's bathroom then security or police would be called so that law is probably already in place. I certainly don't want a guy in a dress following my wife/mother/daughter/friend into the girls bathroom just because they feel they have the legal right to do it.

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First I have to disagree with Seanchai - the potential "Sexual Predator" excuse holds no water. You can be a male gay sexual predator and walk into the mens room with little boys and other guys without question - hell a guy can even be a convicted sex crime offender against other men and still be allowed to use the mens room... same in the case for a lesbian sexual predator and the Ladies room. Treating Cross dressers - part time TS - or any other TS variant as different is completely invalid and unfair.

In addition forcing any trans identifying / presenting individual to use the restroom of something other than their presentation opens them up to the potential of being harassed or worse... I wouldnt want to be forced to use the Mens room in an AZ truck stop, might get mighty unfriendly there if someone has a problem with TS and I would be stuck in a very private enclosed space with only one exit... not good.

EVERYONE should be required to act with civil decency when using a communal resource like a restroom. The legality should only be brought in to question if someone does not REGARDLESS of GENDER - and then the appropriate actions should be taken.

In my state there are LGBT equality laws in place that allow a trans individual to use the restroom of their gender identity - no ID is required.

The ID rule is bad to begin with because some states make it very difficult to get your gender marker changed on your ID unless you have had full SRS (although other states can also be a lot easier)

Requiring it on your Birth Certificate (as the AZ law would require) is a horrible idea - who the fuck carries their birth certificate around with them??? And there are a few states that simply WILL NOT change a birth record gender marker - you can get everything else changed but what the doctor decided you were when you popped out is going to stay. (honestly I dont remember the doctor even asking me so who the hell is he to say, arguably I was a bit young at the time and its all a bit fuzzy)

Lastly - I have Never been questioned when using the restroom or stopped from using the one that matches my gender identity.

The day that happens things are going to get real interesting and I guarantee it will make the papers.

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Originally Posted by TempestTS

Treating Cross dressers - part time TS - or any other TS variant as different is completely invalid and unfair.

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I think in this instance (and I've been an advocate for all TG's in many other areas) but I completely disagree. A CD or TV who dresses for a sexual fetish or just out of comfort does not have to have the same rights and a transsexual who identifies and lives as a woman. A unisex toilet would be the best solution for all establishments going forward but to give a CD/TV the same status as a TS, brings up way too many contradictions and also undermines what a transsexual is trying to accomplish in terms of being that woman, that she is.

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Originally Posted by seanchai

I think in this instance (and I've been an advocate for all TG's in many other areas) but I completely disagree. A CD or TV who dresses for a sexual fetish or just out of comfort does not have to have the same rights and a transsexual who identifies and lives as a woman. A unisex toilet would be the best solution for all establishments going forward but to give a CD/TV the same status as a TS, brings up way too many contradictions and also undermines what a transsexual is trying to accomplish in terms of being that woman, that she is.

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And I again disagree. And respectfully so - this is a debate not a street fight - I know you hold TG in high regard and I appreciate your continued advocacy - that is not in question in the least.

For the record I also agree that CD/TS who conduct themselves in inappropriate ways undermines the whole TG community because they are viewed as part of it and we are facing a battle that is often fought uphill and on broken glass when it comes to public perception - we dont need harmful or negative connotations associated with us.

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A CD or TV who dresses for a sexual fetish

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My point is how can you tell? Simply by the way they look? Lets face it some girls have a much harder time that others. And lets not forget trans men and how they factor in to this - why is it only MTF that appear to be in question here, and why is it only the Ladies Room that we are worried about? A standard without being Fair is no standard at all.

If what you are saying is someone (CD/TV ect) who is acting in a sexually predatory way should not be allowed to use the privacy of the restroom to carry that to higher levels then I would support that statement - So long as it applies to all genders and presentations.

How you dress or the gender it presents has nothing to do with being more or less likely to engage in unacceptable behavior - judge on actions - not on appearances - (although granted a flamboyant appearance *regardless of gender* tends to draw more attention so we may notice the actions of those individuals more which is unavoidable)

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Originally Posted by TempestTS

And I again disagree. And respectfully so - this is a debate not a street fight - I know you hold TG in high regard and I appreciate your continued advocacy - that is not in question in the least.

My point is how can you tell? Simply by the way they look? Lets face it some girls have a much harder time that others. And lets not forget trans men and how they factor in to this - why is it only MTF that appear to be in question here, and why is it only the Ladies Room that we are worried about? A standard without being Fair is no standard at all.

If what you are saying is someone (CD/TV ect) who is acting in a sexually predatory way should not be allowed to use the privacy of the restroom to carry that to higher levels then I would support that statement - So long as it applies to all genders and presentations.

How you dress or the gender it presents has nothing to do with being more or less likely to engage in unacceptable behavior - judge on actions - not on appearances - (although granted a flamboyant appearance *regardless of gender* tends to draw more attention so we may notice the actions of those individuals more which is unavoidable)

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That's actually part of my point and I stated that, how can one tell whether it's a transsexual or a CD/TV. I was just throwing the ID as "proof" into the mix as an idea as I can't see how else it could be done. Now we're not talking about FTM or MTF transsexuals, we're talking about including people who are neither, who simply dress that way as a fetish (or sexual kick, or whatever).

I didn't state that those people (those who aren't TS but want to use the opposite sex's bathrooms) are necessarily going to engage in unacceptable behavior but if they are
a) transvestite's ie; dressing because they feel more comfortable dressed as a woman but identify with being MALE - then they should use the men's bathroom.

b) CD (or whatever terminology) dressing for a sexual kick, then I don't think the opposite sex's restroom is an appropriate place for them to fulfill their fantasies and yes, I would question whether they are more likely to engage in unacceptable behavior.

This isn't just about slighting some TV/CD's feelings. It's about other people and allowing them the right privacy that they should have in a Male of Female bathroom and it's about transsexual's rights to be seen as a female and accepted (regardless of how they look) that they can use female facilities. Allowing anyone who says "I have the right to use a woman's bathroom just because I've cross-dressed today" undermines too much.

http://youtu.be/sFBOQzSk14c

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Originally Posted by seanchai

That's actually part of my point and I stated that, how can one tell whether it's a transsexual or a CD/TV. I was just throwing the ID as "proof" into the mix as an idea as I can't see how else it could be done. Now we're not talking about FTM or MTF transsexuals, we're talking about including people who are neither, who simply dress that way as a fetish (or sexual kick, or whatever).

I didn't state that those people (those who aren't TS but want to use the opposite sex's bathrooms) are necessarily going to engage in unacceptable behavior but if they are
a) transvestite's ie; dressing because they feel more comfortable dressed as a woman but identify with being MALE - then they should use the men's bathroom.

b) CD (or whatever terminology) dressing for a sexual kick, then I don't think the opposite sex's restroom is an appropriate place for them to fulfill their fantasies and yes, I would question whether they are more likely to engage in unacceptable behavior.

This isn't just about slighting some TV/CD's feelings. It's about other people and allowing them the right privacy that they should have in a Male of Female bathroom and it's about transsexual's rights to be seen as a female and accepted (regardless of how they look) that they can use female facilities. Allowing anyone who says "I have the right to use a woman's bathroom just because I've cross-dressed today" undermines too much.

http://youtu.be/sFBOQzSk14c

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Ok I sense we are going to disagree on the finer points - it happens. I doubt very much there is a perfect solution to this type of situation and I certainly havent found it if there is one...

Lets just go with this for everyone learning to live together in harmony... regardless of what bathroom they use.

:dancing:

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Originally Posted by TempestTS

Ok I sense we are going to disagree on the finer points - it happens. I doubt very much there is a perfect solution to this type of situation and I certainly havent found it if there is one...

Lets just go with this for everyone learning to live together in harmony... regardless of what bathroom they use.

:dancing:

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The solution would be to have unisex bathrooms!

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Originally Posted by seanchai

The solution would be to have unisex bathrooms!

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Provided we as a civilization can be reach the mentality where we can deal with that concept... I think every day we get a little closer but humanity has such a very long way to go...

Ok Ill shut up now...

This is sad, but not at all surprising. The government is a corrupt cult full of assholes! I say we just ignore the government, stop voting, stop watching T.V. and just do whatever the fuck we want! Current politics is beyond repair. Human beings need to start treating each like human beings and not animals! If it's not race, its gender, or religion, or sexuality, blah blah blah BLAH. I say we round up all the backwoods, ignorant, hateful bastards, put them in work camps where they can do something useful with their lives like farm organic/pesticide free food to help end hunger in this country...How about introducing that bill? Y ou think it would pass? :dancing:

Seanchai, if your mother were being followed by a man in a dress, it's rather understandable that you'd be distraught about it, but why the public restroom specifically? Should we create a law that bars crossdressers from dark parking lots, bars, alleys, elevators, or anywhere else your mother can be dragged off and mugged or fondled in private?

That's not the point. A woman sitting down to piss probably would take offense if they realized a crossdresser was in the stall next to them irregardless of their intent. Most people expect that only stark-cold same-gender people occupy the same public restroom. That's why I propose we offer a men's, women's, and unisex bathroom... as well as a hermaphrodite hose around the back so that women who don't mind shitting next to men don't have to be put off by the genetic freak using the funnel -- and just so everybody stays happy, there's also a sound-proof stall for the drunken homeless, low-class hookers, and noisy shitters.

What's the point in damage control when there isn't much damage done. How often do you hear about crossdressers assaulting others in public restrooms? Like, never. Why isn't it preferable just to teach the public to fucking stuff it and let the person in the stall next to you pinch a loaf in peace? I don't understand why a few misplaced emergency calls need to turn into millions of dollars of public facility renovations.

As it stands, if a man walks into a women's restroom and does anything more than use the facility and leave, the guy can be arrested, detained, and trespassed if need be. That's pretty much universal in all 50 states. I'm not saying that's overkill, I'm saying that the system seems to work fine. The stick-in-the-spoke is usually the whistle-blower that can't let well-enough be or the polar opposite; harassment from people in the "correct" bathroom.

I volunteer to stand outside the womens rest room and grope every potential user. GG's will be allowed to pass, Transwomen will have to join me in a seperate room for further investigation,

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Originally Posted by Tits McButts

Seanchai, if your mother were being followed by a man in a dress, it's rather understandable that you'd be distraught about it, but why the public restroom specifically? Should we create a law that bars crossdressers from dark parking lots, bars, alleys, elevators, or anywhere else your mother can be dragged off and mugged or fondled in private?

That's not the point. A woman sitting down to piss probably would take offense if they realized a crossdresser was in the stall next to them irregardless of their intent. Most people expect that only stark-cold same-gender people occupy the same public restroom. That's why I propose we offer a men's, women's, and unisex bathroom... as well as a hermaphrodite hose around the back so that women who don't mind shitting next to men don't have to be put off by the genetic freak using the funnel -- and just so everybody stays happy, there's also a sound-proof stall for the drunken homeless, low-class hookers, and noisy shitters.

What's the point in damage control when there isn't much damage done. How often do you hear about crossdressers assaulting others in public restrooms? Like, never. Why isn't it preferable just to teach the public to fucking stuff it and let the person in the stall next to you pinch a loaf in peace? I don't understand why a few misplaced emergency calls need to turn into millions of dollars of public facility renovations.

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Ho-fucking-hum. I didn't bring the "public restroom specifically" law into it, the State of Arizona did but now you mention it, because it's an enclosed area where people are potentially vulnerable, trying to equate a bathroom with a car park if a pretty poor comparison.

My issue with this is to do with the "right". "We have the right to go into an opposite sex's bathroom because I say that I want to". It's rubbish, there are rules and limitations that as a society people need to adhere to.

It is kinda weird for someone who truly doesn't identify as female to be in the womans room

Seanchai given how strong you've been in positively advocating for us, I am baffled at your position on this.

I'll accept your point that those not truly identifying female should not have a right to the use of the female restrooms. that said, if those parties gain access, existing law has penalties for the sorts of improper behavior - there's no need for a new law singling out transsexuals other than to legalize discrimination.

As for the unisex bathroom issue, its not a practical solution and has been used to foster discrimination. In NJ we had a case where a trans woman was fired due to not being at her desk frequently enough. The problem was they assigned her to use the unisex bathroom in another building on the campus. Anyone who has been on Spiro will tell you it causes the need to frequently urinate. If you need to pee once an hour and the walk to the bathroom is 10 min, the person is away from the desk for 25 min of the hour.

similarly I can't fathom how you support the ID test when in large sections of the US its impossible for TS folks to gain ANY legal documents which specify the target gender. Even medical professional confirmation is problematic when most US TS folks have no health insurance nor resources to pay for medical professionals.

I recognize there's no simple fix to the dilemma, but use of Bathrooms is a major problem for the TS community... Its a safety issue, plain and simple,

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Originally Posted by Wendy Summers

Seanchai given how strong you've been in positively advocating for us, I am baffled at your position on this.

I'll accept your point that those not truly identifying female should not have a right to the use of the female restrooms. that said, if those parties gain access, existing law has penalties for the sorts of improper behavior - there's no need for a new law singling out transsexuals other than to legalize discrimination.

As for the unisex bathroom issue, its not a practical solution and has been used to foster discrimination. In NJ we had a case where a trans woman was fired due to not being at her desk frequently enough. The problem was they assigned her to use the unisex bathroom in another building on the campus. Anyone who has been on Spiro will tell you it causes the need to frequently urinate. If you need to pee once an hour and the walk to the bathroom is 10 min, the person is away from the desk for 25 min of the hour.

similarly I can't fathom how you support the ID test when in large sections of the US its impossible for TS folks to gain ANY legal documents which specify the target gender. Even medical professional confirmation is problematic when most US TS folks have no health insurance nor resources to pay for medical professionals.

I recognize there's no simple fix to the dilemma, but use of Bathrooms is a major problem for the TS community... Its a safety issue, plain and simple,

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I'm not singling it out, Arizona is. I'm offering alternatives to how transsexual women could legally use the women's restrooms while men, shouldn't have the right to use the women's restrooms. The ID issue thing (which if you'd read the rest of my statements) was just something I threw out there mainly to preempt people stating something along the lines, that some transsexuals still look un-passable.

As Amber said:
"It is kinda weird for someone who truly doesn't identify as female to be in the womans room "

I'm supportive of transsexuals using the correct sex's bathrooms - I don't know how much clearer I can make that (did you really read all my posts?) - by condoning the usage of CD/TV's or any guy/girl who wants to use the opposite sexes bathroom, you're undermining the ability for TS's to have the rights to use it (and therefore, probably where these laws are coming from). A transsexual is not the same as a transvestite and should not have the same rights.

Checking IDs for bathroom usage is beyond absurd. I agree with Lamba Legal's take on this issue:

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The solution is quite simple, in theory. Everyone should use the restroom that matches their gender identity, regardless of whether they are making a gender transition or appear gender-nonconforming... There is no rule that a person must look a certain way to use a certain restroom... Asking someone to show ID to use a particular restroom is invasive and unnecessary.

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http://data.lambdalegal.org/publicat...-restrooms.pdf

Additionally, states such as California have had laws on the books for years that specifically make it illegal to discriminate against people based on gender identity, or any "gender non-conforming" person, for any public accommodations including restrooms:

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Discrimination against transgender and gender-nonconforming people is prohibited in virtually every area of life in California, including housing, employment, education, insurance, and public accommodations. This means that you cannot be fired for being transgender, that a land lord cannot evict you from your apartment for being transgender, that you cannot be forced to use a restroom that does not match your gender identity at a restaurant...

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http://transgenderlawcenter.org/issu...rimination-act

Furthermore, not just California has such non-discrimination laws, but so do others including Nevada, Colorado, and New Mexico -- that is, practically all of the states surrounding Arizona. So in some sense this current news is just a sign of the retrograde politics in Arizona, trying to hold back the wave of equal-rights recognition coming at it from all sides.

http://www.aclu.org/maps/non-discrim...nformation-map

most people think/feel that a TS is just a man in a dress.

many TG/TS do not want to get SRS so many states do not want to grant DL OR birth certificate changes.

only very passable or very pretty TS,TG and CD'S can go into the restroom without a hassle unless you or in a place like west hollywood where they do not care much.