Embarassing

I wonder what the response is to this picture of Americans in action in Afghanistan. Are our American board members embarassed by this image?

The first one, 'cause I thought Marines would have bigger dicks (and higher standards of honor).

What other people do, doesn't embarrass me. But I think if other people do embarrass then embarrassment could be found anywhere.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...jYr6gUoYDpReL6


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...PBNqQGyudQ1fWQ


http://img.webring.com/r/b/baycityrollersan/logo

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Originally Posted by Prospero

So which of these to pictures is the most embarassing for you Americans.
And was it wikileaks who posed the first one initially!

The second picture is a branch of Walmart.

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i wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire

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Originally Posted by russtafa

i wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire

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But you'd further assist their drowning with urine.

That's a beautiful flag too.

http://www.australian-flag.org/australian-flag-640.jpg

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Originally Posted by Prospero

So which of these to pictures is the most embarassing for you Americans.
And was it wikileaks who posed the first one initially!

The second picture is a branch of Walmart.

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I've been waiting for this...Thank You . It's Not embarrassing to me as an American in the least....especially coming from a non- American. I suppose you have the right to comment, but you don't have the right to judge unless you've walked in their boots. These hypocritical politicians wringing their hands at press conferences deserve no less than what these dead Taliban got. They send these 20 year olds into battle in hostile environments tour after tour with rules of engagement that no one in combat should ever have to deal with, then expect them to act more like the Peace Corp than trained killers. I could relay atrocities from Nam that would make this look like a frat party. It happens. It ain't pretty, but neither is war. Is it conduct unbecoming? Yes....but if you don't think Limey soldiers did this to Nazi's in WW11, you're naive. The only thing different here is the I-phone. And as far as Karzai goes....he should be the next one to get pissed on. I can't wait for the Taliban to put his head on a stick 5 minutes after the last marine is gone. Here is what Col. West said, and I agree...


Rep. Allen West (R-Fla.), a former Army lieutenant colonel, sends THE WEEKLY STANDARD an email commenting on the Marines' video, and has given us permission to publish it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/sites/.../allenwest.jpg


“I have sat back and assessed the incident with the video of our Marines urinating on Taliban corpses. I do not recall any self-righteous indignation when our Delta snipers Shugart and Gordon had their bodies dragged through Mogadishu. Neither do I recall media outrage and condemnation of our Blackwater security contractors being killed, their bodies burned, and hung from a bridge in Fallujah.
“All these over-emotional pundits and armchair quarterbacks need to chill. Does anyone remember the two Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division who were beheaded and gutted in Iraq?
“The Marines were wrong. Give them a maximum punishment under field grade level Article 15 (non-judicial punishment), place a General Officer level letter of reprimand in their personnel file, and have them in full dress uniform stand before their Battalion, each personally apologize to God, Country, and Corps videotaped and conclude by singing the full US Marine Corps Hymn without a teleprompter.
“As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”







<

Some character named Bashir is pissing on a whole country of poor muslims while they can still taste it. That's worthy of outrage perhaps. Leer over there for awhile. We'll be just fine thank you very much. We've solved our own problems for quite some time now. I'll let you know if we need a butler.

http://202.58.40.60/elements/img/art...ews_695199.jpg

http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/media/...955205-1-0.jpg

http://images3.naharnet.com/images/2...jpg?1323347651

I could swear American's are suppose to be more civilized than the Taliban. But I guess i'm wrong.

Everyone has the power to judge. It's called the capacity to think. Everyone has the right to express their judgment. It's called free speech. In this case, the Marine Corp will have the right to enforce their judgment.

But I know where you're coming from. If some assholes are shooting at me and I manage to kill them before they kill me, I reserve the right to piss on their dead bodies. It's not an honorable act, but understandable.

They do have surprisingly small dicks though, and I would've hoped they had displayed more honor than the Taliban displayed toward our soldiers. But that's love and war. If it were up to me I'd let them off with a reprimand. But the U.S. can't afford leniency here. I'm guessing these guys will at least be dishonorably discharged.

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Originally Posted by trish

Everyone has the power to judge. It's called the capacity to think. Everyone has the right to express their judgment. It's called free speech. In this case, the Marine Corp will have the right to enforce their judgment.

But I know where you're coming from. If some assholes are shooting at me and I manage to kill them before they kill me, I reserve the right to piss on their dead bodies. It's not an honorable act, but understandable.

They do have surprisingly small dicks though, and I would've hoped they had displayed more honor than the Taliban displayed toward our soldiers. But that's love and war. If it were up to me I'd let them off with a reprimand. But the U.S. can't afford leniency here. I'm guessing these guys will at least be dishonorably discharged.

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That's closer to being in agreement than we may ever be ! :Bowdown:


I would slightly disagree with you on the judgement thing.....while I may have the capacity or power to judge a terminal cancer patient that chooses illegal drugs when everything else has failed, I'd like to think I'd be very judicious and restrained with that judgement.

The Walmart sign was a judgement too.

kill them and let god sort em out lol or don't go there in the first place

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Originally Posted by Silcc69

I could swear American's are suppose to be more civilized than the Taliban. But I guess i'm wrong.

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I suppose the term civilized can be considered relative...

However, here's what I think:

What these young Marines did was in poor taste...and I wish to God someone, for once, would be smart enough not to record the act and then submit it on the internet....
BUT they didn't chop anyone's head off...they didn't burn anyone to death and hang em from a bridge...they didn't mutilate or rape any little girls cause they thought they committed some type of adultery...need I go on?!

...all they did was urinate on some bodies that are never going to feel it. Someone that would have blown them up or shot em in the head without a moment's thought. Someone who doesn't even consider the barbarity of their acts...ever.

So yeah, I still think we (and those young men) are more civilized...but you can think otherwise...from the safety of your home...same as me.

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Originally Posted by fred41

I suppose the term civilized can be considered relative...

However, here's what I think:

What these young Marines did was in poor taste...and I wish to God someone, for once, would be smart enough not to record the act and then submit it on the internet....
BUT they didn't chop anyone's head off...they didn't burn anyone to death and hang em from a bridge...they didn't mutilate or rape any little girls cause they thought they committed some type of adultery...need I go on?!

...all they did was urinate on some bodies that are never going to feel it. Someone that would have blown them up or shot em in the head without a moment's thought. Someone who doesn't even consider the barbarity of their acts...ever.

So yeah, I still think we (and those young men) are more civilized...but you can think otherwise...from the safety of your home...same as me.

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common sense

Thucydides History of the Peloponessian War, written sometime before the author's death in 400BCE, contains graphic account of atrocities committed by troops from Athens and Sparta, Michael Walzer in Just and Unjust Wars provided a modern assessment of the rules of war as part of his critique of war as a political strategy/gamble, replete with atrocities from Greece to Vietnam -sadly there is nothing new in the humiliation process that takes places, whoever is doing it.

It is important for us to condemn all of it, be it the Marines dragged through the streets of Mogadishu -or in Vietnam (see Joris Ivens film April in Vietnam in the Year of the Cat if you must, even if the pilot was alive at the time)- or hung up on a bridge in Fallujah, or the soldiers who used to cut off the ears of Japanese soldiers to send home to mom; or the conscripted, cold, hungry, badly-led Argentinians summarily executed by British soldiers in the Falklands/Malvinas who should have been treated as legitimate POW's-the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions exist, but in spite of having journalists 'embedded' with the troops in order to 'write' stories, modern technology now enables us to see things best not seen at all.

But Prospero's subtle point is made -we are not so much sickened or outraged by it, as much as embarrassed -for the soldiers. We will eventually know the names of those 4 guys, but will we ever know the names of their victims? Proof that wars rarely achieve what they set out to achieve, and this nonsense in Afghanistan has achieved nothing at all, unless you are in the top echelons of the political and military elites in Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have become very very rich indeed -if they were in skirts we might think we were watching Mother Courage....

The scandal that isn’t on the video:

http://www.salon.com/2012/01/13/the_...deo/singleton/

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Thucydides History of the Peloponessian War, written sometime before the author's death in 400BCE, contains graphic account of atrocities committed by troops from Athens and Sparta, Michael Walzer in Just and Unjust Wars provided a modern assessment of the rules of war as part of his critique of war as a political strategy/gamble, replete with atrocities from Greece to Vietnam -sadly there is nothing new in the humiliation process that takes places, whoever is doing it.

It is important for us to condemn all of it, be it the Marines dragged through the streets of Mogadishu -or in Vietnam (see Joris Ivens film April in Vietnam in the Year of the Cat if you must, even if the pilot was alive at the time)- or hung up on a bridge in Fallujah, or the soldiers who used to cut off the ears of Japanese soldiers to send home to mom; or the conscripted, cold, hungry, badly-led Argentinians summarily executed by British soldiers in the Falklands/Malvinas who should have been treated as legitimate POW's-the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions exist, but in spite of having journalists 'embedded' with the troops in order to 'write' stories, modern technology now enables us to see things best not seen at all.

But Prospero's subtle point is made -we are not so much sickened or outraged by it, as much as embarrassed -for the soldiers. We will eventually know the names of those 4 guys, but will we ever know the names of their victims? Proof that wars rarely achieve what they set out to achieve, and this nonsense in Afghanistan has achieved nothing at all, unless you are in the top echelons of the political and military elites in Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have become very very rich indeed -if they were in skirts we might think we were watching Mother Courage....

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Again...speak for yourself...I'm not embarrassed, and I'm an American and a vet. Victims? I can tell you that when someone is trying to kill you, and you happen to be fortunate enough to off him first, you don't consider him a victim. A victim is a grandmother walking a poodle and struck by a drunk driver. Let me do a quick look back and see if I can find a thread where you condemned the events in Black Hawk down. You do so here to appear to be even handed, but I don't recall near the condemnation back then......not because Americans wouldn't be outraged, just that Americans weren't paying attention, but that's another matter. In America we tend to romanticize war as though it was a game with rules because most have never experienced it's horror first hand. We think nothing of seeing a Sioux warrior scalp a white eye, but to most that seems so far removed and almost fantasy...I don't condone what these marines did, but I know of far worse incidents....
Here's an irony for all you holier than thou sorts. All major news organizations refused to show workers jumping from world trade center inferno to their death on the street below because or a variety of reasons....too gruesome I suppose, yet I've seen this marine vid all over the TV and print media. Curious

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Originally Posted by fred41

I suppose the term civilized can be considered relative...

However, here's what I think:

What these young Marines did was in poor taste...and I wish to God someone, for once, would be smart enough not to record the act and then submit it on the internet....
BUT they didn't chop anyone's head off...they didn't burn anyone to death and hang em from a bridge...they didn't mutilate or rape any little girls cause they thought they committed some type of adultery...need I go on?!

...all they did was urinate on some bodies that are never going to feel it. Someone that would have blown them up or shot em in the head without a moment's thought. Someone who doesn't even consider the barbarity of their acts...ever.

So yeah, I still think we (and those young men) are more civilized...but you can think otherwise...from the safety of your home...same as me.

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Thing is we are looked upon as being better than those savages. We are the biggest world power so we are suppose to set an example. Just like when the soldier had the guy on the table with a bag on his head and dick by a string. That isn't the best look for us. Kill the fuckers and be on with it no need to piss on somebody or any other extracurricular activities.

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Originally Posted by onmyknees

Again...speak for yourself...I'm not embarrassed, and I'm an American and a vet. Victims? I can tell you that when someone is trying to kill you, and you happen to be fortunate enough to off him first, you don't consider him a victim. A victim is a grandmother walking a poodle and struck by a drunk driver. Let me do a quick look back and see if I can find a thread where you condemned the events in Black Hawk down. You do so here to appear to be even handed, but I don't recall near the condemnation back then......not because Americans wouldn't be outraged, just that Americans weren't paying attention, but that's another matter. In America we tend to romanticize war as though it was a game with rules because most have never experienced it's horror first hand. We think nothing of seeing a Sioux warrior scalp a white eye, but to most that seems so far removed and almost fantasy...I don't condone what these marines did, but I know of far worse incidents....
Here's an irony for all you holier than thou sorts. All major news organizations refused to show workers jumping from world trade center inferno to their death on the street below because or a variety of reasons....too gruesome I suppose, yet I've seen this marine vid all over the TV and print media. Curious

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left wing bias ?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Thucydides History of the Peloponessian War, written sometime before the author's death in 400BCE, contains graphic account of atrocities committed by troops from Athens and Sparta, Michael Walzer in Just and Unjust Wars provided a modern assessment of the rules of war as part of his critique of war as a political strategy/gamble, replete with atrocities from Greece to Vietnam -sadly there is nothing new in the humiliation process that takes places, whoever is doing it.

It is important for us to condemn all of it, be it the Marines dragged through the streets of Mogadishu -or in Vietnam (see Joris Ivens film April in Vietnam in the Year of the Cat if you must, even if the pilot was alive at the time)- or hung up on a bridge in Fallujah, or the soldiers who used to cut off the ears of Japanese soldiers to send home to mom; or the conscripted, cold, hungry, badly-led Argentinians summarily executed by British soldiers in the Falklands/Malvinas who should have been treated as legitimate POW's-the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions exist, but in spite of having journalists 'embedded' with the troops in order to 'write' stories, modern technology now enables us to see things best not seen at all.

But Prospero's subtle point is made -we are not so much sickened or outraged by it, as much as embarrassed -for the soldiers. We will eventually know the names of those 4 guys, but will we ever know the names of their victims? Proof that wars rarely achieve what they set out to achieve, and this nonsense in Afghanistan has achieved nothing at all, unless you are in the top echelons of the political and military elites in Afghanistan and Pakistan, who have become very very rich indeed -if they were in skirts we might think we were watching Mother Courage....

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I disagree with that they aren't victims unless they are civilians.

i think war is the most evil ,mind destroying thing this world has ever known but if 2 sides go to war they should see it to the grim evil end not like Vietnam where the issue was not concluded or Irak

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Originally Posted by onmyknees

Again...speak for yourself...I'm not embarrassed, and I'm an American and a vet. Victims? I can tell you that when someone is trying to kill you, and you happen to be fortunate enough to off him first, you don't consider him a victim. A victim is a grandmother walking a poodle and struck by a drunk driver. Let me do a quick look back and see if I can find a thread where you condemned the events in Black Hawk down. You do so here to appear to be even handed, but I don't recall near the condemnation back then......not because Americans wouldn't be outraged, just that Americans weren't paying attention, but that's another matter. In America we tend to romanticize war as though it was a game with rules because most have never experienced it's horror first hand. We think nothing of seeing a Sioux warrior scalp a white eye, but to most that seems so far removed and almost fantasy...I don't condone what these marines did, but I know of far worse incidents....
Here's an irony for all you holier than thou sorts. All major news organizations refused to show workers jumping from world trade center inferno to their death on the street below because or a variety of reasons....too gruesome I suppose, yet I've seen this marine vid all over the TV and print media. Curious

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A) You are hardly going to find me referring to the incident in Somalia which happened in 1994; and I have condemned it here, and the other examples of prisoners or war, dead or alive, being abused, by whoever is doing it.

B) According to the Laws of War, the Geneva Convention, and just basic decency, even dead enemies have rights; the guerillas might not have been victims while fighting for their country, but once they were killed they had the right to be treated with decency and respect; they were not; they became victims of the hubris of men in uniform deluded into thinking that humiliating their combatants is an acceptable ritual. It is not.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

A) You are hardly going to find me referring to the incident in Somalia which happened in 1994; and I have condemned it here, and the other examples of prisoners or war, dead or alive, being abused, by whoever is doing it.

B) According to the Laws of War, the Geneva Convention, and just basic decency, even dead enemies have rights; the guerillas might not have been victims while fighting for their country, but once they were killed they had the right to be treated with decency and respect; they were not; they became victims of the hubris of men in uniform deluded into thinking that humiliating their combatants is an acceptable ritual. It is not.

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Well.........if you did post that, I stand correct. I don't recall it.

Geneva Convention ?????? Why don't we just have a dual with flintlock pistols?

While I understand what you're saying in the abstract, what does your convention rules say about the enemy wearing uniforms and being identifiable? You think these savages play by the Marcus of Queensbury rules...they're breaking rocks with a primitive hammer one minute, and shooting their AK-47's at women and children the next. Get real Stavros.

Yes US soldiers should be held to a higher standard, but you fight savagery with more savagery. You barge in and shoot first and ask questions later...ala Seal Team 6.

Their hero Bin Laden hid behind a woman like the true muslim dog he is .I think we should bring back the warrior religious orders to deal with these fucks so we can bath in their blood and kill and kill until there are no muslims left and besides it would be great fun and give the young blokes a hobby

You are surprised that Marines are pissing on dead enemies? I'm surprised one of them isn't wearing a crown of ears. Marines aren't the fucking girl scouts. They are trained to decimate and destroy not sell cookies and sew on merit badges.

On one hand there is a lot of hate and discontent in this thread but on the other there are some honest views being expressed. Honesty isn't always appreciated though, because it often hurts or offends. I won't take any one side here but it is nice to see where some of you stand in this world.

why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

So which of these to pictures is the most embarassing for you Americans.
And was it wikileaks who posed the first one initially!

The second picture is a branch of Walmart.

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Fuck off cunt, why don't you go to the war graves in france and dig up some WW2 vets graves because one or two might have rifled through a dead germans corpse and stolen a dagger or two. Thats right,get right in the graves and rip the medals off them you muppet . Because believe me what those marines done is childs play to what other shit goes on wars throughout history.My grandad was in the bombers over germany ,you should have heard what he was going to do to the germans if they shot him down .He was going to get revenge for hanging his mates from lamposts as 'terror flyers'.Any german it didn't matter. It would have made you piss yourself by the sounds of it.Although I think now he would have wondered why the fuck we fought the germans,the state our country is in now.

You train men up and send them off to kill don't be surprised some nasty shit happens. If you have a fucking problem spunk chops moan at the politicians who sent them out there. What they ragheads do to our prisoners I wouldn't have given a fuck if the marines had shagged the corpses. Not a few months ago, a 19 yr old sweaty sock, got captured tortured and his throat cut, by the taliban.19 yr old He was one of ours and you are crying about what 3 yank marines did to some dead ones?

What a cunt seriously.

Don't women realise that some men find the thought of this fucking hot?I'd like her to take a shit in my mouth while reading mein kampf out loud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=002ZoVk6Txo

CNN contributor no less.I hear bill maher, who is a bed wetting liberal couldn't give a fuck about 3 dead ragheads either. So why are people moaning again?

Mein Kampf does go on a bit Arnie boy, how about reading the wind in the willows instead?

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Originally Posted by arnie666

Don't women realise that some men find the thought of this fucking hot?I'd like her to take a shit in my mouth while reading mein kampf out loud.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=002ZoVk6Txo

CNN contributor no less.I hear bill maher, who is a bed wetting liberal couldn't give a fuck about 3 dead ragheads either. So why are people moaning again?

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Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

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hey i'm not racist i just want these slimy ragheads to stay in their own country where they will be happy digging around in the dust and shit where they belong ,its you lefties that want them in our countries where they can fuck the place up by doing what comes naturally to them,ie =blowing up buildings and smelling like shit and wearing their pjs in the daytime and making their women look like letter boxes:banghead

LOL.. Russtafa. "Not racist" "Slimy ragheads" "smelling like shit." You are a comedian, surely.
Jews "funny looking' 'take all of our money" "Steal our women" "global conspiracy" Ring any bells. C'mon - recongise what you are at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

LOL.. Russtafa. "Not racist" "Slimy ragheads" "smelling like shit." You are a comedian, surely.
Jews "funny looking' 'take all of our money" "Steal our women" "global conspiracy" Ring any bells. C'mon - recongise what you are at the very least.

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no don't hate jews they don't blow up buildings and trains i hate these rug kissers but i would not hate them if they stayed in their own shit holes but you lefties want them living amongst us

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Originally Posted by onmyknees

Well.........if you did post that, I stand correct. I don't recall it.

Geneva Convention ?????? Why don't we just have a dual with flintlock pistols?

While I understand what you're saying in the abstract, what does your convention rules say about the enemy wearing uniforms and being identifiable? You think these savages play by the Marcus of Queensbury rules...they're breaking rocks with a primitive hammer one minute, and shooting their AK-47's at women and children the next. Get real Stavros.

Yes US soldiers should be held to a higher standard, but you fight savagery with more savagery. You barge in and shoot first and ask questions later...ala Seal Team 6.

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I think there is a problem here that has emerged with so-called Guerilla Warfare since Vietnam -no, armies no longer line up in formation in fields and march forward behind a flag, a drummer-boy and someone playing a pipe or bagpipes (often with their relatives watching from a nearby hill-top); we no longer have Presidents or Prime Ministers on the radio or tv making a solemn declaration of war -these days we tend to find coalitions are formed, UN Security Council Resolutions passed, and action taking place on that basis.

Legally it is the Jus in bello -the right to wage war; and the Jus in bellum -the right behaviour during the war, where the distinction between combatants and non-combatants is -or used to be- a basic benchmark, but where the treatment of the wounded, the dead, and the civilians were also codified in law -and these centuries of law-making that began in at least 1648 have also been absorbed into military field-manuals.

The reason for this and the Geneva Conventions, is so that at someone can be held accountable for whatever grievance it was that led to so much killing. Hence the Paris Peace Conferences, to take one obious example.
It is the process that sent Milosovic, Karadzic and Mladic to The Hague -firing on non-combatants in a conflict is illegal and they are there to be held accountable for the siege of Sarajevo, the death camps in Bosnia, Srebrenica and so on.

The US Armed Forces have field manuals that detail how service personnel are expected to behave -and the military has put its own on trial, most notably in the aftermath of My Lai.

If you think this is just window dressing for liberals, it is you deciding that everything that has happened since the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 has been a waste of time; that would include every peace treaty ever signed since then, every trial of every war criminal, from Tala't Pasha in 1919 and the Nazi's at Nuremberg and Eichmann in 1960. If you do think that anything goes in wartime, that it is kill or be killed, you stand apart from all the military professionals, lawyers and politicians who recognise that this removes all barriers to behaviour and in addition, makes the resolution of differences after the war much more difficult.

You should be asking why it is that young Americans have been sent to Afganistan to change a society that doesn't want it anymore than their fathers did not want the USSR to change Afghanistan for the same reasons: so that it would not be a pain in everyone's ass. The people of Afghanistan are fighting NATO in the same way that the French people fought the German occupation, to argue that they should be wearing a uniform is daft, their clothes are their uniform, which is why so many non-Taliban get killed, and why they can never be beaten.

President Carter might have been the initial agency that sparked this conflict -Brzezinski has claimed the US fired the first shots to draw the USSR into a fatal occupation/unwinnable war, my view is that Brzesinksi was the main mover in this, because Carter was always more concerned with diplomacy than war, and just as Carter now stands head and shoulders above Bush and Cheney precisely because of the folly of pre-emptive attacks and regime change, it is time for people like you to concede that it is precisely a policy of You barge in and shoot first and ask questions later that has led to this disaster, that is directly responsible for the death and injury -mental as well as physical- of young Americans, that has meant that NATO cannot defeat 25,000 Taliban anymore than the British Army could defeat 2,000 Provos in Northern Ireland.

It doesn't work, it brutalises people, it humiliates people be they dead or alive, it doesn't solve the political problem that caused it, and it costs trillions of $$$$, most of which ends up in the secret bank accounts of corrupt politicians, arms dealers, and Generals. War isn't just inefficient, it isn't just hell, its a waste of money.

it's fucked we should not be there and no muslim should be here as they do not seem to assimilate and in fact expect society to change for them

Some Muslims are from within your own cultural ranks - ie white converts. This is true in the US, Europe and Australia. In the US and UK there are also many Muslims who are black citizens who have converted. You would have them expelled from "the West" as well, Mr Russtafa?

And on a point of fact - very very few Muslims blow up buildings etc. The overwhelming majority are ordinary law abiding peaceful people who simply want to live their lives, worship in their church (mosque) of choice and work for the good of whichever nation they now live in as citizens.

they can go live with their demolition mates and kiss carpets in the land of the sand bunker

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

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With all due respect, you're naive and idealistic. That's OK....in fact it's admirable. But there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that. You don't seem to understand that because you like so many others have been sanitized to what war is. Young men in combat week after week loosing brothers and narrowly escaping death themselves numerous times can't always walk the razor's edge you and the other armchair advocates would like them to.Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy.
I don't want you to misunderstand. I don't condone what the marines did. I understand it and relate to it. They should be disciplined quietly, handed their rifles back, and sent to kill more bad guys.... and the politicians should stay the fuck out of it.

It's too late to quietly discipline these pissers. Had they not filmed the event and uploaded to the internet one might have quietly given them latrine duty for a month and left it at that. Uploading the clip was tantamount to gloating and publicly taunting their disrespect. Whether they uploaded or some other fucker did, their poor judgment is now the center of international attention. There will be serious and justifiable consequences. Their action, though understandable, is certainly not honorable__nor is it legal by international law or even just the Marine code of conduct__nor is it wise, because the escalation of such behavior will endanger the lives [of] fellow soldiers and supporting civilians__finally their actions reflect poorly on the Nation in the eyes of the rest of the world. Remember, we're trying to win the hearts and minds of the non-Taliban population. This didn't help. At this point simply slapping the offending urinators will be interpreted by everybody watching as condoning their behavior, and as you agree, we cannot do so. (Do I understand properly that you don't condone water boarding either though you find it understandable?)

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Originally Posted by arnie666

why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women.

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Ah you certainly don't hold back I see.