Everone in Politics is dirty.

I wouldnt want to be a Clinton person. I am neither Democrat or Republican. But with all the Bush stuff, I wanted to show that NO ONE is with our dirt and scandal.

There are only two choices: You can either believe in the conspiracy theory of government or the coincidence theory." -- my friend Congressman Larry P. McDonald, M.D. (D., Georgia). I had lunch with him shortly before he was murdered by the Soviet Union while aboard Korean Airlines Flight 007. -- W.J. Mencarow, former Legislative Director in the U.S. Congress, now editor of THE PAPER SOURCE
"Follow the money."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this list was made up of one, two, or even ten people you could plausibly argue that none of them were related to their relationship with Bill Clinton. And, even given the size of the following list, you can no doubt plausibly argue that SOME of these peoples' deaths are not related to their relationship to Bill Clinton.

But can you really believe that NONE of them are?

James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack while in solitary confinement. According to the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram of Sept. 11, 1998, he died after being denied his nitroglycerine pills . He was a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation.

Mary Mahoney - Former White House intern who was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just before she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House. The murder was an execution-style professional hit. No money was taken. She was a close friend of Monica Lewinsky's. Monica is on tape saying she feared for her life after her friend was killed.

Vince Foster - Former white House counselor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide. Far too many mysterious "coincidences" to go into here. See

http://www.assumption.edu/WebVAX/Foster/index.html

http://www.assumption.edu/WebVAX/Foster/Juhl5Nov95.html

http://www.all-natural.com/foster-1.html

http://www.aci.net/kalliste/part36.htm

and many more (do a search for Vince Foster death (no quotes) and be amazed!)


Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former Chairman of the Democratic National Committee. Officially reported to have died in a plane crash, along with numerous DNC contributors, into a mountain during a fierce storm. It was actually a bright, sunny day. The White House refused to allow the Air Force to investigate the crash, the first time in American history that the crash of an Air Force plane was not investigated by the Air Force. Air Force Lt. Col. Steve Cogswell, a medical doctor, forensic pathologist and deputy medical examiner with the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, has released photos and x-rays which purport to show that Commerce Secretary Ron Brown had a gunshot wound in his head following his airplane crash in Croatia last year. Dr. Cogswell disputes the official explanation of the hole -- that it was a superficial wound inconsistent with a gunshot. He says brain matter is visible in the wound, indicating the skull was penetrated.

Dr. Cogswell is no conspiracy nut. He is in charge of training at AFIP.

Air Force Col. William Gormley, the pathologist who signed off on the Brown case for the government, has changed his story. After being confronted with the autopsy photographs, he now renounces earlier statements suggesting the hole didn't penetrate the skull. Brain matter is clearly visible in the photographs -- which, strangely, had been "lost" by the government

There was one survivor of the crash, a nurse, and at least one paramedic at the scene said she was not critically injured. She died in an ambulance of a wound she reportedly did not have when she was put aboard the ambulance..

No autopsy was performed on Brown, though Dr.Cogswell urged that the procedure be conducted. He also believes an autopsy should have been performed on Brown's aide, Naomi Warbasse, because examiners could not determine her cause of death. Army Lt. Col. David Hause, a deputy medical examiner at the AFIP, examined Brown's body and the wound and agrees with Dr. Cogswell and others that it did seem to be a gunshot wound -- one that approximates the size of a .45-caliber round.

Cogswell also notes that the original x-ray, which, he says, showed a "lead snowstorm," typical of a gunshot wound, has been replaced by investigators with another one. However, Cogswell still has in his possession a photographic copy of the now missing x-ray.

Dr. Martin Fackler, former director of the Army's Wound Ballistics Laboratory in San Francisco, also examined the photos. "I'm impressed with how very, very round that hole is," he said. "That's unusual except for a gunshot wound. It's unusual for anything else." He said he could not rule it a gunshot wound without an autopsy, and expressed shock that one was not conducted.

"They didn't do an autopsy?!!," he said. "My God. It's astounding!"

Today, after examining the photographic and x-ray evidence, one of the nation's most prominent forensic pathologists sticks his neck out to agree with their findings. Dr. Cyril Wecht of Pittsburgh said there was "more than enough" evidence to suggest possible homicide in Brown's death to warrant an autopsy.

"It's not even arguable in the field of medical legal investigations whether an autopsy should have been conducted on Brown," said Wecht, who has conducted some 13,000 autopsies himself and reviewed approximately 30,000 others. "I'll wager you can't find a forensic pathologist in America who will say Brown should not have been autopsied."

In this case, you can forget political motivations being behind Wecht's outspokenness. He is a prominent Democrat.


The military has begun an investigation -- but not of the circumstances of Brown's death. Rather, authorities are probing whistleblower Cogswell. He has been placed under virtual house arrest


At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. Some claim to have knowledge of a meeting between Brown and Clinton shortly before the crash in which Brown told Clinton that unless he was willing to do whatever was necessary to protect Brown from prosecution (which could have implicated Clinton), that he would go public with what he knew about DNC fund-raising, the Asian connection, the Chinese contributions to the Clinton re-election campaign, etc. -- some of which has become public knowledge.

Some in the intelligence community believe that the plane was beamed a false directional signal that guided it into the side of a mountain. Both of the civilian air traffic controllers in the tower at the time of the crash committed "suicide" within two months.

See: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a1b4ac91e94.htm

http://tribune-review.com/ruddy/112497.html

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/19...no03_brown.htm



C. Victor Raiser II - & Montgomery Raiser - Major players in the Clinton fund-raising organization. Died in a private plane crash, July 1992.

Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock, September 1992. Described by Clinton as a "Dear friend and trusted advisor".

Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in Virginia of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

Jerry Parks - Head of Clinton's gubernatorial security team in Little Rock. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock. Park's son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton. He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.

James Bunch - Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a "Black Book" of people containing names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas.

James Wilson - Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater.

Kathy Ferguson - Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson. Was found dead in her living room with a gunshot wound to her head, May, 1994. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she was going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was codefendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.

Bill Shelton - Arkansas State Trooper and fiancée of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancée, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound -- also ruled a suicide -- at the gravesite of his fiancée.

Gandy Baugh - Attorney for Clinton friend Dan Lassater. Died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.

Florence Martin - Accountant subcontractor for the CIA related to the Barry Seal/Mena Airport drug smuggling case. Died of three gunshot wounds.

Suzanne Coleman - Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.

Paula Grober - Clinton's speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.

Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Told a friend shortly before he died that the extent of the corruption in the Clinton Administration he was uncovering was far more widespread than he first suspected and called it "The Octopus": A vast, interlocking network of criminal conspiracy that reaches into every branch and agency of the U.S. government, many other national governments, and every sector of our society. Danny told his friends he was meeting an informant to "bring back the head of the Octopus" when his body was found in the Martinsburg, W. Va. Sheraton on August 10, 1991. We are to believe that he killed himself in the middle of his investigation. Much of the evidence he had gathered was missing. See:

http://www.constitution.org/col/octocaso.htm

http://www.scruznet.com/~paul/Octopu...o/ittimes.html


Paul Wilcher - Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro. Found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993 in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.

Jon Parnell Walker - Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington, Virginia apartment balcony August 15, 1993. Was investigating Morgan Guarantee scandal.

Barbara Wise - Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce

Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance. Died shortly thereafter in a small plane
crash.

Dr. Stanley Heard - Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee. Died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small
plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton's advisory council, personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather and brother.

Barry Seal - Drug running pilot out of Mena Arkansas. Death was no accident. http://www.ndsn.org/NOV95/ARKANSAS.html http://www.maraleveritt.com/fbi-seal-files-jpg.htm http://www.ndsn.org/NOV95/ARKANSAS.html

Johnny Lawhorn Jr. - Johnny Franklin Lawhorn Jr., 29, the transmission shop owner who discovered Whitewater documents and a cashier's check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car, was killed when his car struck a utility pole as he shot out of a service station at high speed directly into the pole.


Stanley Huggins - Suicide. Investigated Madison Guarantee. His report was never released.

Hershell Friday - Attorney and Clinton fund raiser died March 1, 1994 when his plane exploded.

Kevin Ives & Don Henry - Known as "The boys on the track" case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug
operation. Controversial case where initial report of death was due to falling asleep on railroad track. Later reports claim the 2 boys had
been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
THE FOLLOWING SIX PERSONS ALLEGEDLY HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES/HENRY CASE:

Keith Coney - Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck July,1988

Keith McMaskle - Died stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988

Gregory Collins - Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.

Jeff Rhodes - He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.

James Milan - Found decapitated. Coroner ruled death due to natural causes.

Jordan Kettleson - Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.

Richard Winters - Was a suspect in the Ives / Henry deaths. Was killed in a setup robbery July 1989

THE FOLLOWING BODYGUARDS DIED WITHIN A SHORT TIME AFTER LEAVING CLINTON'S SERVICE:

Major William S. Barkley Jr.
Captain Scott J. Reynolds
Sgt. Brian Hanley
Sgt. Tim Sabel
Major General William Robertson
Col. William Densberger
Col. Robert Kelly
Spec. Gary Rhodes
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Conway LeBleu
Todd McKeehan

And if you are going to talk about failure to act from the BUSH administration. Then do you hold the Democrats responsible for 9/11?? Dont be a hypocrit, dont be blind.


During the runup to President Bush's current tour of Asia, Bill Clinton tried to steal some of his successor's thunder. At a conference last week, the former president defended his record on terrorism by claiming that he warned Mr. Bush about the danger of Osama bin Laden during the transition between administrations. "In his campaign, Bush had said he thought the biggest security issue was Iraq and a national missile defense," Mr. Clinton began, "I told him [in the exit interview] that, in my opinion, the biggest security problem was Osama bin Laden." Newly revealed facts cast doubt on how seriously Mr. Clinton himself took the al Qaeda threat.
Mr. Clinton's former security advisers are on the defensive against charges that the administration's inaction allowed bin Laden to grow into a global force. Much of the current controversy has been generated by Richard Miniter's New York Times bestseller, "Losing bin Laden: How Bill Clinton's Failures Unleashed Global Terror." In the book, Mr. Miniter detailed the many instances that Mr. Clinton had to get bin Laden but didn't. Particularly damaging are charges that the administration rejected Sudanese offers to detain the terrorist and hand him over to the United States, and later to provide intelligence dossiers on hundreds of al Qaeda operatives — most of whom are still free and active. Former Clinton administration officials do not all have their stories straight. Some say there were no offers from Sudan; others say the offers weren't serious.
The one man who can clear this up is Mansoor Ijaz, a millionaire Manhattan businessman who acted as a go-between for the Clinton White House with various Muslim officials, including the Sudanese. In practice, Mr. Ijaz is a citizen diplomat, using his own resources and connections to try to help the United States approach Muslim leaders, and vice versa. During the Clinton years, he was the administration's main connection to the American Muslim community. He is not a partisan Republican crank with an ax to grind. He contributed or raised $900,000 for Democratic campaigns and was a recognized "Friend of Bill," an insider. Hillary Clinton's birthday celebration was held at Mr. Ijaz's Manhattan apartment in 1999.
In e-mails and other correspondence provided exclusively by Mr. Ijaz to The Washington Times, Democratic heavyweights such as former Sen. Chuck Robb, Sen. Tim Johnson and Sen. Chuck Schumer recommend him for a position on the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. In a handwritten note, Sandy Berger, Mr. Clinton's own national security adviser, writes that he "will make sure he is considered" for a PFIAB spot. There are personal handwritten notes to Mr. Ijaz from President Clinton, Mrs. Clinton and former Vice President Al Gore that are signed simply Bill, Hillary or Al. In one note, Mrs. Clinton thanks him for a birthday present he gave her. These personal connections and the wealth of personal correspondence are important, because they prove the credentials of Mr. Ijaz.
So what did he tell them? In detailed confidential memos to Mr. Berger (provided to The Times by Mr. Ijaz), Mr. Ijaz sets out the Sudanese offers. In a Sept. 27, 1996, brief, he details the contents of the intelligence files, which he had told Mr. Berger about in a previous August memo. In letters to President Clinton from officials from Islamic governments delivered by Mr. Ijaz, repeated appeals were made for efforts to work on better relations between Washington and Muslim nations. In one letter to Mr. Clinton from Hassan Turabi, chairman of the National Assembly of Sudan, the Sudanese official wrote:
"We are prepared to work with you to usher in a new era of improving the understanding and attitudes of all elements in the Islamic world, whether here in the Sudan or in other Islamic regions of mutual interest and concern." The most significant cause for concern with the Muslim world was then what it still is today: bin Laden. And the Sudanese were in a position to hand him over. The Clinton administration might not have taken the Sudanese seriously, but the Sudanese voluntarily placed all their cards on the table. Mr. Ijaz's correspondence proves the administration knew what was available. The Clinton administration simply chose to snub the offer to work together with the government that harbored the al Qaeda mastermind.
In an interview yesterday with the Washington Times, Mr. Ijaz summarized his view of the Clinton administration's culpability regarding September 11. "I said then as I say now: Bill Clinton's inability to understand what was fueling the rise of bin Laden as a phenomenon — not as an individual — was the greatest U.S. foreign policy failure of the last half-century. It has affected hundreds of millions worldwide. Even if we get him now, who will be the next bin Laden? There are many willing candidates standing in line. Islamic radicalism exists today because Clinton didn't dismantle al Qaeda when he had the chance."
With all this information in mind, there is one important question regarding Bill Clinton's claim that he warned Mr. Bush about the al Qaeda threat. If Mr. Clinton did believe bin Laden posed the most serious danger to America's security, why didn't he take the opportunities he had to stop him?

At last you're showing your true colors. I probably shouldn't waste my time responding to this wild-eyed horseshit (or more to the point, chickenhawk shit), but here are a few things relevent to the "theories" that you endorse.

from-
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm


Claim: Bill Clinton has been quietly doing away with those who oppose him.
Status: False.

Origins: A new version of a lengthy list of deaths associated with Bill Clinton began circulating on the the Internet in August 1998. According to it,
there have been close to fifty suspicious deaths of colleagues, advisors and citizens who were about to testify against the Clintons, with the unstated implication that Bill Clinton or his henchmen were behind each untimely demise.

We shouldn't have to tell anyone not to believe this claptrap, but we will anyway. In a frenzied media climate where the Chief Executive couldn't boff a White House intern without the whole world finding out every niggling detail of each encounter and demanding his removal from office, are we seriously to believe the same man had been having double handfuls of detractors and former friends murdered with impunity?

Don't be swayed by the number of names listed on screeds like this. Any public figure is bound to have a much wider circle of acquaintance than an ordinary citizen would. Moreover, the acquaintance is often one-sided — though many of the people enumerated on this list might properly claim to have known Clinton, he wouldn't know or remember having met a great number of them.

"Body count" lists are not a new phenomenon. Lists documenting all the allegedly "suspicious" deaths of persons connected with the assassination of John F. Kennedy have been circulating for decades, and the same techniques used to create and spread the JFK lists have been employed in the Clinton version:


List every dead person with even the most tenuous of connections to your subject. It doesn't matter how these people died, or how tangential they were to your subject's life. The longer the list, the more impressive it looks and the less likely anyone is to challenge it. By the time readers get to the bottom of the list, they'll be too weary to wonder what could possibly be relevant about the death of Clinton's mother's chiropractor.

Play word games. Make sure every death is presented as "mysterious." All accidental deaths are to be labelled "suspicious," even though by definition accidents occur when something unexpected goes wrong. Every self-inflicted death discussed must include the phrase "ruled a suicide," to imply just the opposite. When an autopsy contradicts a "mysterious death" theory, dispute it; when none was performed because none was needed, claim that "no autopsy was allowed." Make liberal use of words such as 'allegedly' and 'supposedly' to dismiss facts you can't contradict with hard evidence.

Make sure every inconsistency or unexplained detail you can dredge up is offered as evidence of a conspiracy, no matter how insignificant or pointless it may be. If an obvious suicide is discovered wearing only one shoe, ignore the physical evidence of self-inflicted death and dwell on the missing shoe. You don't have to establish an alternate theory of the death; just keep harping that the missing shoe "can't be explained."

If the data doesn't fit your conclusion, ignore it. You don't have to explain why the people who claim to have the most damaging goods on Clinton — Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey, Linda Tripp, Monica Lewinsky, Kenneth Starr — are still walking around unscathed while dozens of bit players have been bumped off. It's inconvenient for you, so don't mention it.

Most importantly, don't let facts and details stand in your way! If you can pass off a death by pneumonia as a "suicide," do it! If a cause of death contradicts your conspiracy theory, claim it was "never determined." If your chronology of events is impossible, who cares? It's not like anybody is going to check up on this stuff . . .
This Clinton "body count" list is not a new phenomenon — multiple versions have been circulating for years. New victim names are routinely added and old ones taken off, forming an endless variety of permutations. At this point, there is no one "official" list.

But where did all this craziness start? In 1994, in a letter to congressional leaders, former Rep. William Dannemeyer listed 24 people with some connection to Clinton who had died "under other than natural circumstances" and called for hearings on the matter.

Dannemeyer's list of "suspicious deaths" was largely taken from one compiled by Linda Thompson, an Indianapolis lawyer who in 1993 quit her year-old general practice to run her American Justice Federation, a for-profit group that promotes pro-gun causes and various conspiracy theories through a shortwave radio program, a computer bulletin board and sales of its newsletter and videos.

Her list, called "The Clinton Body Count: Coincidence or the Kiss of Death?" then contained the names of 34 people she believed died suspiciously and who had ties to the Clinton family. Thompson admitted she had "no direct evidence" of Clinton killing anyone. Indeed, she said the deaths were probably caused by "people trying to control the President" but refused to say who they were. Thompson said her allegations of murder "seem groundless only because the mainstream media haven't done enough digging."

Ah, but they had. If not before she put her list together, at least afterwards. Anyone who continues to state the mainstream media has given these claims short shrift is being disingenuous.

Since 1994, various respected news outlets have been confronted with versions of the "Clinton Body Count" list, run their own investigations of a few of the claims, and found nothing to substantiate what they looked into. Those investigations would culminate in yet another story about an oddball conspiracy rumor.

But conspiracy theories don't die that easily. These "body count" lists and the many specious claims contained therein continue to circulate in cyberspace and beyond: yesterday's newspaper articles are forgotten with the next day's delivery, but e-mail lives forever.

Let's take this new version apart line by line. The sections which appear in a highlighted color are the "Clinton Body Count" e-mail, while the sections in ordinary text color are my comments.


Much of the evidence will never be known because many people who were witnesses or who possessed evidence of some kind suffered mysterious deaths prior to being able to come forward.



In other words, "We can't prove that all these people had information damaging to Bill Clinton, but since they're dead now we can simply assert that they did without fear of contradiction."


The list compiled here is not complete and is not detailed. It is presented to show how extensive the problem is and to illustrate that all these deaths could not be just a coincidence.



Translation: "If I included all the details, it would expose what a canard this list really is. And hinting that there's even more than I could list here makes it sound all the more ominous."


1. Mary Mohane - former White House intern gunned down in a coffee shop. Nothing was taken. It was suspected that she was about to testify about sexual harassment at the White House.



Former White House intern Mary Caitrin Mahoney, 25, manager of a Georgetown Starbucks, was killed along with two co-workers (Emory Allen Evans, 25 and Aaron David Goodrich, 18) on 6 July 1997 during a robbery of the shop. In March 1999 Carl Derek Havord Cooper (29) of Washington was arrested and charged with these murders.

Yes, it is unusual that three employees were killed in the course of a robbery during which nothing was taken. According to Cooper's 26 April 2000 guilty plea (he received life with no hope of parole), he went to the Starbucks to rob the place, figuring the receipts from the July 4 weekend would make for a fat take. He came in after closing, waved a .38, and ordered all three Starbucks employees into the back room. Once there, Mahoney made a run for it after Cooper fired a warning shot into the ceiling. She was ordered back to the room, but then went for the gun. Cooper shot her, then afterwards shot the other two employees. He left empty-handed, afraid the shots had attracted police attention. As regrettable as these three deaths were, this was nothing but a case of a robbery gone wrong.

And, right away, we have come to the first big lie of the "Clinton Body Count" list: Any unexplained death can automatically be attributed to President Clinton by inventing a connection between him and the victim. Mary Mahoney did once work as an intern at the White House, but so have hundreds of other people who are all still alive. There is no credible reason why, of all the interns who have served in the Clinton White House, Ms. Mahoney alone would be the target of a Clinton-directed killing. (Contrary to public perception, very few interns work in the West Wing of the White House or have any contact with the President. The closest most interns get to the chief executive is a brief handshake or a group photo.)

The putative reason offered for Mahoney's slaying — that she was about to testify about sexual harrassment in the White House — was a lie. This absurd justification apparently sprang from a hint dropped by Mike Isikoff of Newsweek just before the Monica Lewinsky scandal broke that a "former White House staffer" with the initial "M" was about to talk about her affair with Clinton. We all know now, of course, that the "staffer" referred to was Monica Lewinsky, not Mary Mahoney. The conspiracy buffs maintained that White House hit men rushed out, willy-nilly, and gunned down the first female ex-intern whose name began with "M" they could find.


2. Vincent Foster - former White House Counsel, found dead of a gunshot wound to the head and ruled a suicide. He had significant knowledge of the Clintons' financial affairs and was a business partner with Hillary. If the Clintons are guilty of the crimes they are accused of by Larry, Vincent Foster would have detailed knowledge of those crimes.



This laundry list of deaths always refers to someone taking his life as "ruled a suicide," thus implying another conclusion of equal likelihood was capriciously dismissed by someone who had the power to do so. From here on, read "ruled a suicide" as "an investigation was carried out, arriving at this as the only reasonable conclusion."

White House deputy counsel Vince Foster committed suicide on the night of 20 July 1993 by shooting himself once in the head, a day after he contacted his doctor about his depression. A note in the form of a draft resignation letter was found in the bottom of his briefcase a week after his death. (Note that this letter was not, as is often claimed, a "suicide note." It was Foster's outline for a letter of resignation.) Foster cited negative Wall Street Journal editorials about him. He was also upset about the much-criticized role of the counsel's office in the controversial firing of seven White House travel office workers.

On 10 October 1997, special prosecutor Kenneth Starr released his report on the investigation into Foster's death, the third such investigation (after ones conducted by the coroner and Starr's predecessor, Robert B. Fiske) of the matter. The 114-page summary of a three-year investigation concluded that Foster shot himself with the pistol discovered in his right hand. There was no sign of a struggle, nor any evidence he'd been drugged or intoxicated or that his body had been moved.

If Foster had been murdered or if unanswered questions about his death remained, Starr would have been the last person to want to conclude the investigation prematurely. Or are we to believe Starr is part of the cover up, too? And if we buy into the conspiracy theory, what are we expected to believe? That a group of professional killers capable of carrying out dozens of murders all over the world shot Vince Foster, then clumsily dumped him in a park (after he had bled out), planted a gun he didn't own in his hand (without bothering to press his fingerprints onto it), amateurishly forged a suicide note (in several different handwritings), and then seriously expected the nation would believe it was suicide? Claims too crazy to believe are never discounted when they're needed to help establish a conspiracy, of course.


3. C. Victor Raiser, II - former National Finance Co-Chairman of Clinton for President, and Montgomery Raiser, his son. Both died in a suspicious private plane crash in Alaska. No cause determined. Raiser was considered to be a major player on the Clinton team.



All plane crashes are "suspicious," because airplanes are supposed to stay in the air, and when they don't it's because something went terribly wrong. Pilot error and mechanical failure are by far the most common causes underlying any crash. The National Transportation Safety Board investigates every downed plane in the U.S., and though they might not always pin down the exact cause of a crash, they're generally pretty good about ruling out the use of explosives or mechanical tampering. If the NTSB doesn't find evidence of tampering or explosives, that's not what downed the plane, and we're left with pilot error and mechanical failure as our choices.

Raiser, his son, and three others died in a plane crash in Alaska on 30 July 1992 during a fishing trip. The pilot and another passenger survived and were hospitalized with severe burns. While the "body count" list claims "no cause determined," the NTSB says otherwise: pilot error in a small plane flying in mountainous terrain during low visibility conditions led to the crash.

Now, consider how ridiculous it is to include this accident on a list of allegedly deliberate deaths. The airplane did not crash due to mechanical failure. The airplane did not crash because it was damaged by fire or explosion. The airplane crashed because its pilot made a mistake. So how could C. Victor Raiser's death possibly have been deliberate? Do you know any pilots willing to intentionally crash their planes? Is there a registry of kamikaze flyers one can hire when one needs a few passengers to be "accidentally" bumped off? Isn't it astounding that the pilot managed to crash his plane and kill the targeted victim, yet ensure his own survival?

See what the NTSB had to say about this accident.

Note that the conspiracy buffs can't even come up with a plausible reason for Raiser's killing other than noting that he was "a major player on the Clinton team," as if that were reason enough. (What about all the other "major players" who aren't dead? How does Clinton ever get anything done if he keeps bumping off anybody with any responsibility in his organization? And isn't it a little foolish to kill off one of your chief financial chairmen three months before a major election? "Yup, I've got all the money I'll ever need for this presidential election; guess I can kill off my finance chairman now.")


4. Paul Tully - DNC Political Director, was found dead in a Little Rock hotel room. No cause was ever determined and no autopsy was allowed. Tully was a key member of the damage control squad and came up with some of the Clinton strategies.



Paul Tully died on 24 September 1992. Problem is, there wasn't anything the least bit unusual about his death, so whoever cooked up this list had to lie and claim that "no cause was ever determined" and "no autopsy was allowed." Au contraire! An autopsy was performed, and Tully's cause of death was determined: a massive heart attack. (Not a surprising demise, since Tully was extremely overweight, a heavy drinker, and a chain smoker.) According to Steve Nawojczyk, the Pulaski County coroner, "An autopsy by the Arkansas medical examiner's office discovered advanced coronary artery disease." He added that investigators found no evidence of external trauma to the body.

Note again that the conspiracy buffs offer no putative reason for Tully's "killing," yet would have us believe that Clinton ordered his chief strategist rubbed out while the most important election of his career was still over a month away.


5. Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser. Found in the woods in Virginia with a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide.



Ed Willey was a former Virginia state senator and a lawyer; his wife Kathleen was active in Democratic state politics, worked as a volunteer (including some fund-raising efforts) on behalf of the Clinton campaign in Virginia in 1992, and later worked as a volunteer in the White House Social Office. Ed Willey's death was as clear cut a case of suicide as one is likely to find. Willey was a desperate, unstable man who (along with his wife) spent money lavishly, stole $275,000 of a client's money, and was about half a million dollars in debt to the IRS. He took his own life on 29 November 1993, leaving behind a suicide note found by his wife: "Saying I'm sorry doesn't begin to explain. I hope one day you will forgive me."

At the same time as Willey was killing himself, his wife was allegedly being groped by Clinton. She'd gone to the Chief Executive looking for a job to help her family out of its financial crisis and found herself fending off Clinton's advances. Clinton admits to the meeting but denies her version of what went on during it. Kathleen Willey testified in Paula Jones' harrassment suit against Clinton, but she's never claimed that Clinton had her husband killed.

Yet again, no reason is offered as to why Clinton would supposedly want to see Willey dead.


6. Hershell Friday - Clinton fund-raiser. His plane exploded.



Herschel Friday, an Arkansas lawyer who had been on the Clinton campaign finance committee, died in a airplane accident on 1 March 1994. His plane did not "explode"; the elderly (73-year-old) Friday, at the controls, crashed it during an attempted landing on a poorly-lighted private airfield at dusk on a dark and drizzly day. Nothing suspicious about this one, hence the need to claim that the plane "exploded." That always sounds suspicious.

See what the NTSB had to say about this accident.

Again, no reason is offered why Clinton would have wanted to dispose of Friday.


7. Jerry Parks - former security team member for Governor Clinton. Prior to his death he had compiled an extensive file on Clinton's activities. His family had reported being followed and his home broken into just before being gunned down at a deserted intersection.



On 26 September 1993, Luther (Jerry) Parks was hit with ten bullets from a 9-mm semiautomatic handgun as he left a Mexican restaurant at the edge of Little Rock. His murder remains unsolved.

Parks' security company guarded Clinton's campaign headquarters in 1992. Parks' son, Gary, asserts in Circle of Power and The Clinton Chronicles (both video products of Linda Thompson's American Justice Federation) that his father collected a secret file of Clinton's indiscretions, and that his father was using the file to try to blackmail the Clinton campaign. (He also claims that Vince Foster knew of the file's existence.) Despite these allegations, the younger Parks has failed to produce the mysterious file, and Clyde Steelman, the homicide sergeant with the Little Rock police force, dismissed Gary Parks' theories of his father's death as "unsubstantiated, nothing to grasp." A far more likely suspect in the murder is Jerry Parks' former partner, with whom Parks had quarreled bitterly.


8. John Wilson - former Washington D.C. council member. Had ties to Whitewater. Died of a very suspicious hanging suicide.



John Wilson was the chairman of the District of Columbia Council, and his suicide was far from "very suspicious": Wilson had a long history of depression, was wrestling with marital problems, and had tried to kill himself on at least four other occasions. He finally succeeded on 19 May 1993. Upon his death, Wilson's wife said, "[His] depression was an inherited problem; that he was able to contribute so much over the years in the face of his disability was a miracle." Police said that he did not leave a note and that there were no signs of foul play.

Wilson had absolutely nothing in common with Clinton other than that they worked in the same city (i.e., Washington, D.C.). The claim that Wilson had anything to do with Whitewater is laughable (and rathert pathetic).


9. Kathy Ferguson - former wife of Arkansas State Trooper Danny Ferguson, the co-defendant with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit. Found dead in her living room of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Interestingly, her packed suitcases seemed to indicate she was about to go somewhere.



Kathy Ferguson killed herself with a gunshot to the right temple on 11 May 1993 at the home of her boyfriend, Bill Shelton. Their relationship had fallen on hard times, with each accusing the other of having been unfaithful. Ferguson left behind a suicide note that read: "I can't stay here any longer. Things will never be the same for us. I can't take that." Close by was another note from Shelton questioning her relationship with another man, which Ferguson's daughter said her mother had been upset over.

There was no mention of packed suitcases in any of the reports about Ferguson's death examined so far, but even if there were, it wouldn't be the least bit surprising — is it so unusual that a woman might be thinking of moving out of the house of a boyfriend who quarreled with her and challenged her fidelity?

Note how tenuous the imagined connections between Clinton and the "victims" are becoming at this point in the list. The ex-wife of an Arkansas state trooper? That's quite a stretch. Moreover, why would anyone kill Kathy Ferguson but not Danny Ferguson?


10. Bill Shelton - Arkansas state trooper and fiance of Kathy Ferguson. Allegedly committed suicide by shooting himself at her grave.



Shelton killed himself over Kathy Ferguson's grave on 12 June 1993. A suicide note was found beside his body. Just a month earlier he had quarreled with his girlfriend, accused her of cheating on him, and driven her to suicide. There's nothing mysterious about his death or his reasons for taking his life. And if the idea that the ex-wife of an Arkansas state trooper was a Clinton "connection" weren't absurd enough, we're now offered the boyfriend of an ex-wife of an Arkansas state trooper.


11. Gandy Baugh - attorney for Dan Lasater in a financial misconduct case. Supposedly jumped out the window of a tall building to commit suicide.



Gandy Baugh died on 8 January 1994 at home. Although causes weren't specified, it's safe to assume people who jump out of tall buildings either die on the spot or in the hospital, not at home.


12. Dr. Donald Rogers - dentist. Killed in a suspicious plane crash on his way to an interview with reporter Ambrose Evans-Pritchard to reveal information about Clinton.



On 3 March 1994 the Cessna carrying a pilot, Donald Rogers, and two other passengers crashed. The pilot had earlier radioed in that he was experiencing electrical trouble and then lost radio contact. The NTSB investigation after the crash revealed that the plane's left generator severely overheated and shut down, leaving the plane without electrical systems. The plane went down far off its planned route, and the pilot was good and lost at the time of the crash.

See what the NTSB had to say about this accident.


13. Stanley Huggins - lawyer investigating Madison Guaranty. Suicide. His extensive report has never been released.



How anyone can confuse dying of pneumonia with suicide is beyond me. Huggins died on 23 June 1994. According Dr. Richard Callery, Delaware's top medical examiner, viral myocarditis and bronchial pneumonia killed Huggins. Lt. Joel Ivory of the University of Delaware police said his exhaustive investigation of Huggins's death turned up "no sign at all of foul play."


14. Florence Martin - Accountant for the CIA and had information on the Barry Seal case. Three gunshot wounds to the head.



On 23 October 1994 69-year-old Florence Martin of Mabelle, Texas (40 miles from Wichita Falls) was murdered in her home by three gunshots to the head through a pillow. She wasn't an accountant for the CIA, though: She worked the graveyard shift at a convenience store in nearby Seymour and had lived in that area for decades. The murder is still unsolved.


15. Suzane Coleman - reportedly had an affair with Clinton. Was seven months pregnant at the time she was found dead of a gun shot wound to the back of the head, ruled suicide.



At the time of Susan Coleman's suicide, Bill Clinton was her law professor. In 1992 an overzealous supporter of George Bush hired investigators to probe this girl's 1977 suicide. They found no evidence that the two had even had an affair. It was an old rumor and a baseless one, and even a determined attempt at muckraking turned up nothing to substantiate it.


16. Paula Grober - Clinton's interpreter for the deaf. Traveled with Clinton from 1978 until her death in 1992 in a one-car accident. There were no witnesses.



The accident took place during the afternoon of 7 December 1992. Paula Gober's car overturned at a curve in the highway, throwing her 33 feet from the vehicle. No one witnessed the accident.


17. Paul Wilcher - attorney investigating corruption. He had investigated federal elections, drug and gun smuggling through Mena, the Waco incident, and had just delivered a lengthy report to Janet Reno. He died in his home of unknown causes.



Wilcher's partially decomposed body was found seated on the toilet in his Washington D.C. home on 22 June 1993. His death was attributed to natural causes. According to The Washington Times, "[H]e was investigating the theory of an 'October Surprise' conspiracy during the 1980 federal election campaign. He had been interviewing an inmate who claimed to have piloted George Bush to Paris so he could secretly seek to delay the release of 52 American hostages in Iran." President Clinton, just a year into his first term, would hardly be likely to give up a key political advantage by bumping off someone who was supposedly about to dig up some major dirt on the Republican party


18. Jon Parnell Walker - RTC investigator who mysteriously fell to his death from an apartment balcony.



I can find nothing about this man, not a report of his death or of his being an Resolution Trust Corporation investigator. Various lists state this tragedy happened on 15 August 1993 at the Lincoln Towers in Arlington, Virginia, but nothing shows up in the newspapers about it.


19. Ron Brown - former DNS Chairman, Commerce Secretary. Reported to have died in a plane crash, but new evidence reveals he may have been shot in the head. He was being investigated by a special investigator and was about to be indicted with 54 others. He spoke publicly of his willingness to "make a deal" with the prosecutors to save himself a few days before the fatal trip. He was not supposed to be on the flight but was asked to go at the last minute. (This count does not include the other business leaders and other passengers who died on this government-sponsored trade mission.)



What "new evidence"? Ron Brown and 34 others were killed in a plane crash in Croatia on 3 April 1996. The plane slammed into a mountain while on landing approach. There were no survivors.

A lot has been made of an x-ray of Brown's skull in which what looks like a round entry wound appears. Closer examination of Brown's skull by military officials revealed no bullet, no bone fragments, no metal fragments and, even more telling, no exit wound.

Simply imagining a scenario under which Ron Brown could have been shot takes one into the realm of the absurd. Was he shot in the head during the flight, in full view of thirty-four other witnesses? (If so, how did they get off the plane?) Did the killers shoot him before the flight, then bundle his body into a seat (just like "Weekend at Bernie's") and hope nobody noticed the gaping hole in his head? Or did Croatian commandos fortuitously appear on the scene to scale a mountain and pump a bullet into the head of an already-dead plane crash victim?

See what the Air Force had to say about this crash.


20. Barbara Wise - Commerce Department secretary. Worked with Ron Brown and John Huang and had extensive knowledge of their activities. Found dead in her locked office the day after Thanksgiving. It was ruled a suicide. Interestingly, she was found partially clothed, bruised, and in a pool of blood.



There was no pool of blood, and Barbara Wise's death was never ruled a suicide by anyone. She was discovered in her Commerce Department office on 29 November 1996 after last being seen alive on 27 November 1996, the day before Thanksgiving. A thorough investigation uncovered no evidence of foul play or suicide. Wise had a history of frequent and severe health problems, including liver ailments. Her death was attributed to natural causes.


21. Charles Meissner - Assistant Secretary of Commerce. John Huang was given a special security clearance by Meissner. Shortly thereafter, he died in the crash of a small plane.



Charles Meissner died in the same plane crash that took the life of Ron Brown, the one in Croatia on 3 April 1996. Fourteen Commerce Department staffers died in that crash, Meissner and Brown among them.

We're now entering an long segment of the list wherein a number of deaths are tied to those of Henry and Ives, who are supposedly linked to Clinton. All of this linkage is one big canard. Henry and Ives had nothing to do with Clinton — they were two young men who foolishly ripped off drugs from a dealer and were beaten to death in revenge. With no link between Clinton and Henry or Ives, the following eight entries collapse like a house of cards.


22 & 23. Kevin Ives and Don Henry - seventeen-year-old boys who apparently saw something related to drugs in Mena by accident late at night. Officially ruled an accidental death on the train tracks, but evidence shows they died before being placed on the tracks - one of a crushed skull and the other of a knife wound in the back.



Henry and Ives were run over by a train on 23 Aug 1987. Dr. Fahmy Malak, Arkansas' former state medical examiner, ruling the deaths accidental, said the teens fell asleep on the tracks after smoking marijuana. A 1988 Saline County grand jury determined the boys were murdered and their bodies afterwards laid on the tracks, but no other conclusions were reached and no indictments were returned. The FBI is still investigating the deaths.

A number of Malak's determinations had been challenged and overturned during his career. He certainly wasn't always a conscientious medical examiner, and his Ives and Henry rulings were only two of many such botchings.

Getting back to the real meat of who killed the boys, nothing ties Ives and Henry to Clinton. Though various of these lists will claim the boys accidentally stumbled onto a "protected" drug drop and were killed for it, there's no reason to believe even that. In a 25 May 1990 hearing before U.S. Magistrate Henry Jones Jr., Katherine Brightop said her ex-boyfriend Paul William Criswell told her he and three other men were involved in the teenagers' deaths. Brightop said Criswell told her the boys tried to steal cocaine from Callaway's home and they were caught and beaten to death before their bodies were placed on the tracks.

Ripping off a drug dealer will get you killed, whether you know a governor or not.


24. Keith Koney - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Died in a motorcycle accident with reports of a high-speed car chased involved.



19-year-old Keith Coney died on 17 May 1988 when the motorcycle he was driving struck the back of a tractor-trailer. He was riding a motorcycle he'd stolen the day before. There were no reports of a high-speed car chase.


25. Keith McKaskle - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Stabbed to death.



In August 1989, Ronald Shane Smith was sentenced to ten years for the 10 November 1988 murder of Keith McKaskle. McKaskle had earlier expressed fears for his life, linking them to his knowing something about "the railroad track thing". Smith may have been paid to kill McKaskle, as a prison inmate said he had been approached and offered $4,000 to kill McKaskle himself.


26. Gregory Collins - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Gunshot wound to the head.



Greg Collins (25) of Bryant, Arkansas, was found shot in woods near Rosston on 2 December 1989. If he truly knew something about drug-related murders, that's reason enough for him to have been killed.


27. Jeff Rhodes - had information on the Ives and Henry and McKaskle deaths. Tortured, mutilated, shot, body burned in a dumpster.



In July 1989 Frank Pilcher was arrested for the April 1989 murder of Jeffrey Rhodes. Rhodes had earlier told his father he feared for his life because he'd witnessed a narcotics transaction.

Rhodes was last seen alive on April 3. His body was discovered in a dumpster on April 19. He'd been shot twice in the head and his body was badly burned. The body was likely burned in an effort to destroy forensic evidence that would led investigators to the murderer.


28. James Milam - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. He was decapitated. The coroner ruled death due to natural causes.



This is my favorite entry. Remember that Arkansas medical examiner, the one I said wasn't always the most conscientious investigator on God's green earth? Yep, we're about to see him again. Fahmy Malak listed James Milam's cause of death as a perforated ulcer, adding that Milam's small dog afterwards ate the dead man's head, accounting for Milam's headless condition.

Milam's daughter-in-law insists Milam was murdered. She claims Malak showed her photographs of the headless corpse, and the neck was cut clean. The Milam family has not attempted to legally challenge the ruling because of the expense, so we'll never know which way the cat jumps, ulcer or murder.

Whatever killed him, Milam died three months before the Ives and Henry murders. What are we supposed to believe here, that Clinton conspirators knocked off someone who "had information on the Ives and Henry deaths" three months Ives and Henry actually died? Wow, talk about a preemptive strike!


29. Jordan Kettleson - had information on the Ives and Henry deaths. Found shot in the front seat of his pick up truck.



21-year-old Jordan Ketelsen died on 25 June 1990.


30. Dr. Stanley Heard - Chair, National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee. He personally treated Clinton's mother, stepfather, and brother. His personal small plane developed problems so he rented another. Fire broke out in flight and he crashed.



Ooh, Clinton's mother's chiropractor died in plane crash. How mysterious. What's next, Clinton's brother's dentist's dog?

Stanley Heard and Stephen Dickson died on 10 September 1993, when their Piper Turbo Lance II caught fire shortly after takeoff from Dulles airport and crashed. They'd attended a briefing that morning on the Clinton administration's health care plan. Dickson's plane had developed mechanical problems on the way to Washington the week before, so Dickson and Heard rented the Cherokee in St. Louis to make the trip. They rented a badly maintained plane, and it cost them their lives.

Here is what the NTSB had to say about this crash.

I've found nothing on the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory that Heard supposedly chaired.


31. Steve Dickson - attorney for Heard. Died in same plane crash.



Dickson attended the same briefing Heard did. I do not know if he was there as Heard's lawyer or for independent reasons.


32. John Hillier - video journalist and investigator. He helped to produce the documentaries "Circle of Power," and "The Clinton Chronicles." He mysteriously died in a dentist's chair for no apparent reason.



Again, I can find no record of this man's death or of his work. There have been a few dental chair deaths, but I find nothing on his.


33. Maj. Gen. William Robertson
34. Col. William Densberger
35. Col. Robert Kelly
36. Spec. Gary Rhodes
37. Steve Willis
38. Robert Williams
39. Conway LeBleu
40. Todd McKeehan
41. Sgt. Brian Haney
42. Sgt. Tim Sabel
43. Maj.William Barkley
44. Capt. Scott Reynolds
* all former Clinton bodyguards who are dead.



Steve Willis, Robert Williams, Todd McKeehan and Conway LeBleu were Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents killed during the Waco confrontation on 28 February 1993.

Brian Haney, Timothy Sabel, William Barkley and Scott Reynolds died in a helicopter crash on 19 May 1993. These four were members of Marine Helicopter Squadron One, the unit responsible for transporting the President. They died when the Blackhawk helicopter they had taken out for a maintenance-evaluation flight crashed. There was no evidence of sabotage. Clinton had set foot in the aircraft on only one occasion, two months earlier, when he traveled from the White House to the USS Theodore Roosevelt.

Jarrett Robertson, William Densberger, Robert Kelly and Gary Rhodes died in a helicopter crash in Weisbaden, Germany on 23 February 1993.


45. Gary Johnson - former attorney for Larry Nichols, severely beaten and left for dead.



Again, I can find nothing on this incident or even this man's life.


46. Dennis Patrick - had millions of dollars laundered through his account at Lasater & Co. without his knowledge. There have been several attempts on his life, all unsuccessful.



It's hard to know what to say about this one. Though I find credible reference to Patrick's life having been in danger a few times, I'm unable to trace back to news reports on the original incidents. Without seeing them, I'm not confident in stating an opinion on whether or not those attempts took place.

Patrick was a client of Lasater, albeit a reluctant one. He was asked to open an account there, he refused, one was opened for him anyway, and he was handed "profits" from one transaction for his part in allowing whatever was going on to take place. Again, someone who got involved with drug dealers ended up in trouble. In this case, an otherwise upstanding man took money he knew to be dirty to keep quiet about what his account was being used for. If he's now being chased by drug dealers who don't want the details of the transactions to come to light, is that all that surprising?


47. L.J. Davis - reporter. While investigating the Clinton scandals he was attacked in his hotel room and his notes were taken. He survived.



Davis said he had awakened in his hotel room with a big bump on his head. He soon admitted having drunk at least four martinis that night. No pages were missing from his notebook, and he had no idea how he ended up on the floor. "I certainly wasn't about to conclude that somebody cracked me on the head," Davis said at the time.


48. Larry Nichols - former marketing director of ADFA. Responsible for bringing forth more evidence and witnesses on Clinton corruption than any other source. Very public about his claims against Clinton. He has suffered six beatings, arrest on trumped up charges, and a near arrest.



In 1988 Larry Nichols, then a marketing director for the Arkansas Development Finance Authority, was fired from his job for making hundreds of calls to the Nicaraguan contras from his office. In 1990 he filed a lawsuit against Clinton claiming the then-Governor of Arkansas and others made him the scapegoat in a misappropriation-of-funds charge that cost him his job. In that suit he also tossed in claims of extramarital affairs, naming five women Clinton was supposed to have chased across the sheets. Nichols withdrew his lawsuit in 1992 and issued a round of apologies to everyone involved. He admitted what he'd said had been an attempt to destroy the Governor by innuendo.

Nichols has since changed his tune yet again, and has returned to making allegations against Clinton, always being careful to stop just short of asserting Clinton is involved in various murders and other crimes Nichols points to as "suspicious."

Since his dismissal from the AFDA, Nichols has made a career of peddling anti-Clinton books and tapes to the lunatic fringe. Take anything claimed about or by this man with a huge grain of salt.


Now, ask yourself: how many people with whom you were acquainted have died mysteriously or violently in the past 10 years.



The bottom line on this piece of e-lore? It's a badly worked laundry list dressed up to appear significant. The promised damning connections to the Chief Executive are missing, with innuendo misinformation offered up in their place. Nothing ties Clinton to any of these deaths, something this list (and others of its ilk) conveniently glosses over. What evidence is offered that would compel a rational person to believe there was Clinton involvement in any of these deaths?

Clinton was acquainted with some people who died — that's about all one can make of this list. Indeed, that's far more than can be made of a number of the entries, specifically, that of Ives and Henry and all those supposedly tied to theirs.

Though it's clear from digging through numerous newspaper articles there is a thriving and dangerous drug culture in Little Rock, how or why this should be connected to Bill Clinton is left unanswered. Regrettably, Little Rock is akin to numerous other large cities: it has its share of drug dealers, murders, and violence. It also has one very famous citizen. And that's about as much of a connection as anyone can make.

"Oh, but I've never known anyone who committed suicide or died 'mysteriously,'" you think. "A list with this many entries must be suspicious." Well, let's set the proper framework. Among your circle of "acquaintences," we will include:


Anyone whom you have ever considered a friend, any you have ever dated, and anyone with whom you have attended any type of social or recreational event.

Anyone who ever attended the same school you did, whether you knew or had any contact with that person or not.

Anyone who ever worked for the same employer you did, whether you knew or had any contact with that person or not (and even if you worked in completely different geographical locations).

Anyone with whom you or any of your family members has ever conducted business (e.g., plumbers, doctors, lawyers, accountants, building contractors, car salesmen).
With a circle that large, would we find at least a few accidental deaths, homicides, and suicides among your "body count" list? Probably. See how easy it was to create a similar list for George Bush, for example.

A number of suicides are enumerated in this list. Suicide is far from an unusual mode of demise. It claims 32,000 lives in the U.S. every year, and it's the 9th leading cause of death. It is indeed a rare person who does not know someone who died by his own hand.

Deaths by airplane crash account for a number of entries on the list. Again, this is not all that surprising. Every year many small planes crash in the United States, and some of those crashes result in fatalities. As mentioned above, the National Transportation Safety Board investigates every one of them, to determine both the cause of the accident as well as to gather data that will help prevent future tragedies. The agency does a thorough job of looking into the circumstances surrounding each downed plane. To describe any of the plane crash deaths on this list as "suspicious" is to suggest the NTSB was part of a coverup.

There have been a couple of unsolved murders (Jerry Parks, Kevin Ives, and Don Henry), but there have also been deaths by natural causes that have been tossed into the mix willy-nilly simply to boost the body count. (Like I said earlier, how can anyone claim a death by pneumonia was a suicide?) All the best lies make sure to mix a bit of truth in with them, and the few genuinely unsolved murders work to cloak the many less credible claims in an aura of plausibility. Don't be overly bemused by them — study each entry on its own merits.

One final question to ask yourself before falling for any Clinton Body Count list: If the Chief Executive was having people bumped off left, right, and centre, why aren't Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp on this list? At the time of Mary Mahoney's death — a death this list hints was ordered by Clinton — neither Tripp nor Lewinsky were the high-profile household names they now are; they were complete unknowns. It would be another six months before information about them would explode into the news. If the President were in the habit of having those dangerous to his presidency put in the ground, why didn't he order these deaths?

Barbara "let's get back to Clinton's bawdy count, okay?" Mikkelson

Additional information:

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention

National Transportation Safety Board

Last updated: 24 January 2001


The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm
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Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2005
by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
This material may not be reproduced without permission



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources:
Black, Chris. "Paul Tully, at 48; Key Strategist for Clinton, the Democratic Party"
The Boston Globe. 25 September 1992 (p. 75).

Ferguson, Greg and David Bowermastsues. "Attacks Against President Take Sinister Turn."
Rocky Mountain News. 12 August 1994 (p. A40).

Horowitz, Sari and John W. Fountain. "Coffee Shop a Fateful Stop on Three Career Paths."
The Washington Post. 13 July 1997 (p. A1).

McKelway, Deroy. "Life Often Lonely Fight for Willey."

Are we supposed to read all of that?

ahhh ONCE again Chef Mike.. you 1) miss the point... and 2) have NO Original thought of your own!!

The point of the first post was to show that anything can written and taken as truth. NOW just as you say what I posted is wrong... How are we to believe that what you posted isnt wrong?

The mere point was that you may discount some of the deaths.. but you cannot discount them all. Some of these deaths are fishy. And depending on whose report you read.. depends on the opinion you take. All I am saying is Read them ALL.. and come up with your OWN Opinion. but you are incapable of doing that.

Explain as you might.. but you posted ONE person's views.. AGAIN no orginial thought of your own. You are a mindless bot.

I see how you didnt respond to the other post.....I guess you are still trying to find SOME article from some obscure person to contradict it.

And you are RIGHT I am showing my colors. I have nothing to hide. If someone .. ANYONE is in the wrong I am going to call them out on it. I will say anyone is wrong as I have no affliation to any party. I have agreed where Bush was wrong and Fucked up...which he has done. and I have pointed out areas where blame was being diverted to him instead of others that were more deserving of it.

YOU on the other hand HATE BUSH..period.. you seem to be a Democrat zombie. And as long as people like you.. believe what they believe .. we will NEVER have a bi-partisan government. It will alwasy be one party against another. This is what is wrong in this country is that everyone is out to make themselves look better by bashing their opponents. There are good and bad things that EVERY president does. We could go on for days. I will point out the Good & the Bad in every presidency.. however you think that every republican is Bad.. and every Democrat is great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jt money

Are we supposed to read all of that?

---

Only if you care to hear a rebuttal to the bizarre conspiracy theories that were posted.

And you posted BS from numerous reich-wing sites. You're gonna have to practice your tapdancing skills elsewhere....you're beginning to bore me.

chef mike.. Just giving you a bit of your own medicine. My posts have my opinion posted... My own thought. when you have a thought it sounds like Grade school bitchin.

Congratulations! I'm happy for you...and YOUR contention that you have an opinion. And that you also obviously hold YOUR "opinion" in such high regard.

Me, all I see is another reich-wing apologist trying desperately to portray himself as an "independant" thinker....


:sleep

Mike.. you are a lost soul. You miss all the things were I have said that Bush was wrong.. that he fucked up.. etc. say what youwant.. but your hostility makes you lose credibility. I am and independant thinker...as I have shown my displeasure for both parties. I believe in finding the truth.. I dont care who they are or what political allegiances they have.

YOU On the other hand CANNOT say that. You have failed to answer the obvious post about Clinton and Osama. and the reason is.. Because you cant find an article to contradict it.. and you just cant bear to admit that the Democrats are just as bad as the Republicans.

You are a BOT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chefmike

And you posted BS from numerous reich-wing sites. You're gonna have to practice your tapdancing skills elsewhere....you're beginning to bore me.

---

:sleep

Like I said Mike. You have no thought.. and you cant Defend the Clinton BinLaden post.

I am sure you will in a few days.. when you find some idiot writer that posted something.

If you had some original thought.. and could actually think for yourself.. and not be a drone.. you could easily admit that Clinton was a FF up too..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chefmike

Congratulations! I'm happy for you...and YOUR contention that you have an opinion. And that you also obviously hold YOUR "opinion" in such high regard.

Me, all I see is another reich-wing apologist trying desperately to portray himself as an "independant" thinker....


:sleep

---

Once again.. displayin your Grade school childish attitude and intelligence.

It's always "Bizarre Theories", if they're not liberal theories, aren't they waffle boy.

Republican backed investigation into Clinton lasted in excess of 3 years and cost in excess of 45 million dollars. If they couldn't dig up at least one body with Clinton's fingerprints on it through those exhaustive efforts, either Clinton is the most brilliant criminal mastermind ever, or he's innocent. I think the later explanation makes more sense, personally. Because if was going to kill anyone, I think Linda Tripp or Monica Lewinsky would have been higher on the list than some unknown Arkansas state troopers.

The real question is why would anyone try to unearth an old, fully discredited salacious scandal now, when there are so many more real and proven ones going on now? I mean, warrentless spying, torture, CIA prisons, renditions, American citizens held for 3 years without charges, Guantanamo, corrupt lobbyists with access to the inner corridors of power, leaks exposing deep cover CIA agents, indictments etc etc are way more current and salient. I think they are offered only to deflect the discussion. I don't care if Clinton was an axe murderer in the past, the person with the bloody hatchet in his hand now is the one we should be more concerned with.

FK

ps, did you know you can't use the word M O N I C A in a post? The system puts in a period automatically. I hope, having exposed that, that i am not about to have a single car accident LOL

FK

Felicia.. Finally a post with some intelligent thought and not some dribble.

First off the Clinton post was just to show that there is skepticism for every person in Politics. Now most of that is on the Clinton list is a stretch.. but you have to admit that there is too much there to lend to coincidence. It is Just fishy is all. And the 3 years of investigation was into the Whitewater scandal.. not the mysterious deaths of people , witht he exception of Foster. Now I thought it was a total witch hunt by the Republicans to try to get something to stick to the Teflon President. So he got a blow job from Lewinsky.. who cares.. that is an issue between his wife and him. We dont need congressional hearing to see how far the Cigar went inside ML. Hell at least we know that the President wasnt some sexually frustrated person with his finger on the button..LOL..

Anyway I bring up Clinton to expose Chefmike as someone who cant think for himself. There is no way he can defend that Post.. and he wont admite his precious Democrat President was the main fuck up that allowed 9/11 to happen. He just cant admit it..

Since the subject of dirty politics and conspiracies was brought up, here's some information about a very, very dirty family...

http://www.7gen.com/the-bush-family-...heories-abound

http://www.beverlyunderground.com/issue5/rabbithole.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_fa...spiracy_theory

http://www.newtopiamagazine.net/arch...bushempire.php

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/01/331546.html

These articles certainly have as much, if not more factual basis than the tired urban legends that sam posted...and they are much more relevant to the current nightmare that the neo-cons have ensnared the country, and themselves in.

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Originally Posted by samstl99

Felicia.. Finally a post with some intelligent thought and not some dribble.



Anyway I bring up Clinton to expose Chefmike as someone who cant think for himself. There is no way he can defend that Post.. and he wont admite his precious Democrat President was the main fuck up that allowed 9/11 to happen. He just cant admit it..

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yeah sure. how many times has this to be repeated: it was the cia funding mujaheddin in afghanistan in the 1980s under reagan AND daddy bush. they, as always, fed the enemies who are chosen by our dear "leaders" as useful at times. then turn their backs on us and become enemies.

i wonder how long will it take this time till all those shady dictators/authoritarian regimes of central asia use our "aid" against the US. btw, wheres the "lets bring them democracy" in those places???? another example of perfect double standard in us-foreign policy.

pps: i am not affiliated with either of the big parties i just can never defend people like the bush gang that promotes mass killing of civillians, robbing off the already have nots and feed the fat cats (on domesitc and world levels) who have absolutely no respect for natural resources and are just a bunch of greedy self-centered bastards only interested in themselves. if you favor all that, its ok to be a republican.

this government is as corrupt and disrespectful to human life as nixon was ("christmas bombings" of saigon 1972...)

more tapdancing...like in that other thread where you claimed clinton was responsible for desert storm..."Anyway I bring up Clinton to expose Chefmike as someone who cant think for himself. There is no way he can defend that Post.. and he wont admite his precious Democrat President was the main fuck up that allowed 9/11 to happen. He just cant admit it.."

lmao...ever hear of the 9/11 hearings, jackass? The hearings that your boy shrub had to have cheney holding his hand in?
Where are FACTS showing clinton ALLOWED 9/11 to happen?

Where are your facts? And what did Condi finally admit to in the 9/11 hearings?

As someone else told you, thank you and fuck off.

Yet another reich-winger posting on a TS board....maybe you should join the log cabin republicans, hypocrite.

The real question is where they dirty before they got into politics or were they clean and politics made them dirty?

Chef Mike.. See you cannot read when it goes against what you blindly believe.

Did you read the facts.. from the source himself.. that was trying to get the US government to capture Bin laden.

Clinton KNEW that Bin laden was a major danger... and if he warned bush during transition that he was such a huge danger to the US why did he not do anything when he was presented with multiple opportunities to capture him. Heck the Sudan even had him in custody and the US (Notice I didnt slander anyone or point out the president) said.. Uhh No thank you.

SO yes Clinton is responsible for 9/11.

The hearings you JACKASS. were to go over the week or so where communications where not paid attention to.. And Yes the Intelligence Agencies were to blame for that.

But had Clinton taken care of business when he could.. all of this would have never happened. Once the US was attacked.. the terrorist started believing that they could get to us. Had we taken Bin Laden out in the 90s.. they would have never realized the success.


Why are you getting soo upset?. You didnt even read the post where the actual person identified himself (not... sources say).. saying how Clinton messed up.

Republicans and Democrats have all admitted that this was the fuck up of the century...



MBF.. you are right the Mujihdeen were orginally funded by the CIA because they were freedom fighters in Afghanistan... then the Taliben infiltrated them and changed what their charter was.

Heck the CIA has funded Noriega.. then had to take him out.. They funded and provided IRaq with weapons. ALL sorts of weapons to battle Iran...

Heck the CIA has even sent "aid" to Syria, Egypt Sudan,. etc. the CIA always gets someone else to do their dirty work.. then when they get in power.. they have to take them out... Nice Job security.

I too have a problem with the bombings.. and killing of innocent people and the profiteering that comes with it all. Unfortunately Someone always profits from war. I have a huge problem with Haliburton.


But remember from Reagan to George W... every president has unilaterally bombing an area and killed innocent people along the way.

I am neither Republican..nor Democrat.. I can see both sides of an argument.. and see the good and bad in all people... or in this case.. Regimes..

Also..just as a note.. If you think Bush is pushing the buttons in the white House you are a kidding yourself. Bush is just a figurehead..

LMFAO...

Another revealing, intelligence response from the leading progressive on this entire board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samstl99

Felicia.. Finally a post with some intelligent thought and not some dribble.

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Sweetie, I'm not really one to blow my own horn, since there are better things out there I would much rather blow, but I give all of my posts care, thought and attention. I also give your posts the same regard and correct them rather than denigrate them. For example, I'll gently correct you and say you must have meant drivel. Dribble, thats more Yourddaddy's thing, since he apparently is quite the backyard hoopster when he is playing by (or is it with) himself LOL

Your argument that Clinton is alone responsible for 9-11 is irresponsible. The whole Sudan thing was examined and discredited by the official 9-11 Commission. Lets not forget that there was a foiled. failed attempt on the WTC when Clinton was in charge. No one gives him any credit for that though.
The present Administration had plenty of warnings about an impending disaster and did nothing about terrorism until it was too late. Bush has had going on 5 years where it should have been his primary focus and hasn't managed to capture Bin Laden. By your reasoning, since Al Queda has done bombings in Europe since 9-11, Bush would be to blame, since he hasn't caught Bin Laden. I doubt Bush would accept that, nor should Clinton have to. 9-11 was on Bush's watch, and all you would do is slap his wrist. His response has done nothing to stop Bin Laden, has sent the country to war, at a terrible cost in lives and international respect and what some estimate will be hundreds of billions of dollars.

They say success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan. Clinton might have been a past fuck, but Bush's name comes up in the paternity test for the 9-11 bastard.

FK

FK..

I stand corrected..sometimes I get typing too fast.

I wasnt saying that Clinton was to blame alone... Far from it. Just that he is where the Blame begins. He knew that BinLaden was a severe threat .. so much that he warned Bush during the transfer in office. and yet he failed to do anything during his presidency about it.. when he had the best chance than anyone to get him. But his failure was compounded..because Bin Laden then grew more and more powerful.

Now Bush is at fault because they had warning signs that an attack was being planned on US Soil.. but the agencies couldnt cooperate and the delay caused 9/11 to happen.. It is a terrible chain of events that started in the early 90s.

Also I dont think you can claim that the Clinton administration foiled a WTC bombing.. the bombing occured.. 6 people killed.. and 1000s injured. The failure was due to the terrorists not understanding the structure of the building adn the bombs were placed in correctly.

Either way..Clinton& Bush both are responsible for 9/11 Blame todays regime for their failures.. I agree.. but dont blame them for failures of the past.. those people need to be accountable as well. \

Quote:

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Originally Posted by samstl99

FK..

I stand corrected..sometimes I get typing too fast.

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I'll presume you were typing too fast when you accused me of lacking intelligence, but having good ball handling skills? LOL

meow

FK

Felicia.. actually the intelligent thought comment was in reference to chefmike. I wasnt saying you were finally having an intelligent thought, but saying finally I get to hear some intelligent thought. (chefmike being the brain dead zombie).

And as far as your ball handling abilities.... we will have to see. LOL

Then:

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White House Releases Video Of Clinton Coffee Talks

GOP: Tapes Should Have Been Turned Over Months Ago
The White House Sunday afternoon released videotaped footage of President Bill Clinton meeting with campaign contributors who were invited to a series of controversial White House coffees during the 1996 campaign.

Administration officials said there was nothing in the tapes that would contradict the White House's long-standing assertion that there were no direct solicitations made for campaign contributions during those coffees.

"With the White House not turning over evidence again and again, I think you really may have crossed the line of obstruction of justice," said Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., on CNN's "Late Edition with Frank Sesno." "If (the tapes are) so innocent, why didn't we have them a long time ago?"

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http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/...clinton.video/

Now:

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Mr. Abramoff's Meetings (and photos)
Press secretary Scott McClellan told the White House press corps: "If you've got some specific issue that you need to bring to my attention, fine. But what we're not going to do is engage in a fishing expedition that has nothing to do with the investigation."

This is not a tenable position. It's undisputed that Mr. Abramoff tried to use his influence, and his restaurant and his skyboxes and his chartered jets, to sway lawmakers and their staffs. Information uncovered by Mr. Bush's own Justice Department shows that Mr. Abramoff tried to do the same inside the executive branch.

Under these circumstances, asking about Mr. Abramoff's White House meetings is no mere exercise in reportorial curiosity but a legitimate inquiry about what an admitted felon might have been seeking at the highest levels of government. Whatever White House officials did or didn't do, there is every reason to believe that Mr. Abramoff was up to no good and therefore every reason the public ought to know with whom he was meeting.

Mr. McClellan dismisses requests for the information as an effort to play "partisan politics," and no doubt there is more than an element of partisanship in Democrats' efforts to extract this information. But Republicans wouldn't stand for this kind of stonewalling if the situation were reversed. We can say that with confidence because history proves it. During the 1996 scandal over foreign fundraising in the Clinton White House, Republicans demanded -- and obtained, though not without a fight -- extensive information about White House coffees and other meetings, including photos and videotapes.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012401532.html

Sauce for the goose...

FK

Wow, I have been gone too long. Reading this thread was like having an operation it took forever to rewarding when it was over.
Interesting post sam. Conspiracies are interesting. But so many out there.
I'm glad it is agreed that Bush and Clinton had a part in what happened in 9/11. Rep and Dem share some blame. How do divide the blame is an ever ending debate.
As far as politics being dirty, absolutley true. Digging through the dirt is hell. Some people rather turn their heads and ignore it. Dirty play has become past of the system. It is tough for the average American to decipher through the propaganda, lies and truth.