Production and promotion standards in the TS niche

OK. I understand that quantity is the name of the game in the TS porn biz and I know a lot of you guys complain when there are less than 100 photos or so per set. I also understand that many TS girls, myself included, have a few more unflattering angles than most GG's and that most shots, even the bad ones, need to be used. I mean, in my case I've been shot in questionable lighting, from a hard side profile, up my nose (yes, really), in shadows, etc. And that's fine. Every shot can't be 100%, but seriously, what I don't understand is why the worst photos seem to always get used as promotional material for new sets. What's up with that? I'm at the point where I feel my best shots are taken with my own point and shoot camera!

More specifically, I feel that two of the shoots I did were VERY poorly marketed and I've talked to plenty of other girls who feel the same way about some of theirs. So what's the deal? Do these producers think that the photos are actually good or do they use good or bad photos in very particular ways in order to make or break the model in question? If it's the latter I'd say that's pretty messed up. Moreover, why do GG porn stars get professional makeup and wardrobe and we're forced into DIY status (excepting Shemale Club - they're uber-professional)? What gives?!

Guys, girls, what say you?

~BB~

Well this is probably aimed at us, as I don't think you've done that many other shoots past SMC and Strokers?

Maybe it's because what YOU think is good an representation of what we're selling, is different from what actually sells. We've been doing this a long time and not all our marketing is spot on but most of it is (the proof is in the pudding, we have awesome sales and possibly more members than other sites, so something must be right.

The "uber-professional" Shemale Club, whose site's I like a lot, take an approach where they retouch the content very heavily, in my opinion and are going for a more Playboy look. This works well for their target audience but not so well for ours. However, the girls tend to love how they look in those shoots, because they are so glamouress and their skins smoothed out, wrinkles removed, etc.

I don't know anywhere which would "make or break" a girl or have any reason to do that. The photos/videos should be representative of that model. Different models, may have different assets that you want to promote (or not so good ones you may wish to hide) so their marketing may differ.

seanchai

If you look at some of the reactions to photos posted on this site alone, you'll see a lot of guys with very positive reactions to bricks with big cocks. So obviously there is a market segment who is looking for that. While I'm not saying the people you are talking about know exactly what they are doing, but they may simply be reacting to some of their fan mail and trying to give their paying customers what they think they want.

So, in this case, is it possible that the shots you don't like are the one's which make you look the least feminine, so you really don't like them, but it is exactly the look that the producers think some of their customers want?

Also, there are a bunch of sites in all of adult (not just TS) which TRY to look "amateur" because their customers think it's more real, so that may be why they are using those "poorly lit up the nose" shots.

But also, don't think that TG's are always second class and GG's always get first class treatment. Yes, there are higher end productions where there is hair, make-up, etc. But there are plenty of GG shoots where there are girls getting a lot WORSE treatment than most TG American talent would tolerate. Take a look at a site like ghettogaggers.com and tell me how you think they treat the talent?

heh,

funny that although there's a lot of stuff in the adult biz that we disagree on, we were busy essentially having the same response to this issue simultaneously.

S just types faster than I do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seanchai

Well this is probably aimed at us, as I don't think you've done that many other shoots past SMC and Strokers?

Maybe it's because what YOU think is good an representation of what we're selling, is different from what actually sells. We've been doing this a long time and not all our marketing is spot on but most of it is (the proof is in the pudding, we have awesome sales and possibly more members than other sites, so something must be right.

The "uber-professional" Shemale Club, whose site's I like a lot, take an approach where they retouch the content very heavily, in my opinion and are going for a more Playboy look. This works well for their target audience but not so well for ours. However, the girls tend to love how they look in those shoots, because they are so glamouress and their skins smoothed out, wrinkles removed, etc.

I don't know anywhere which would "make or break" a girl or have any reason to do that. The photos/videos should be representative of that model. Different models, may have different assets that you want to promote (or not so good ones you may wish to hide) so their marketing may differ.

seanchai

---

When I came into this business I thought that self promotion would put me in the favor of some others in the game, but I quickly learned that it wouldn't do squat for me other than wear me out so I don't really do it nearly as much as I used to. That said, I don't think that one can really conclude that I'm talking about Grooby since I've done other shoots besides those that you know about.

As far as SMC, there's a lot more to them than Photoshop. When I first came onto HA I trumpeted the merits of the natural look versus manipulation, but since I shot with them I realized that even without Photoshop, just basic production values in getting the raw shots are really important and post-production is just that - post, secondary. They do your hair, they do your makeup. When you do a shoot with them you learn a thing or two. I said it before and I'll say it again - personal issues aside, Danielle Foxx is an incredible production talent. I'm also seeing and hearing incredible things from Jasmine Jewels and the Chicago girls - many of whom may USE Photoshop, but are not dependent upon it to look gorgeous.

But this thread isn't even about that. It's about the fact that a lot of girls have been subjected to studios promoting their WORST assets instead of their best. I appreciate your response, but it doesn't answer my question which was: WHY does that happen? Clearly these photos are NOT 'representative of the model.' Sure, Yum has great numbers and is arguably #1 in the niche, but that fact doesn't necessarily reflect on quality as much as quantity, which is actually the very first point that I made here. Furthermore, a couple of girls being promoted with questionable shots are not going to bring down the site as a whole especially considering the field of models who DON'T have that problem.

~BB~

Yeah. I've noticed this also. It seems that most sites favor the numbers game. I will admit it seems like a better deal when they offer 150 pictures per set. As apposed to 80 decent pictures or 35 good shots. Its literally laughable to me at times though when they include pictures that aren't even in focus. Makes the photographers look like incompetent fools and the site owners like used car salesmen. But I can't really judge them or their practices. Whatever they are doing seems to be working for them. :shrug

As for using bad shots for promotional purposes... I don't really know. Maybe they feel that style of promotion doesn't bring that many new memberships so they offer the least valuable (bad shots) since they are giving them away for free. Its just a shame the sites don't work with the girls and choose there favorites shots.

Bella,

From an outsiders perspective, I think he did answer your question and gave you the perspective from the other side. May not be what you wanted to hear, but his take on things sounds reasonable.

Bottom line is these things are subjective and while mistakes happen and some people may have better taste than others, why would a producer or photographer want to intentionally put out the worst a photo set has to offer? Wouldnt seem to make sense for them financially.

Just my take

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caliuncut

Bottom line is these things are subjective and while mistakes happen and some people may have better taste than others, why would a producer or photographer want to intentionally put out the worst a photo set has to offer? Wouldnt seem to make sense for them financially.

---

Right. So are they mistakes or are they intentional? I believe that was my question. One photo in particular to which I'm referring (and Seanchai knows which one it is) was an awful closeup headshot highlighting some features that would universally be considered unattractive and there are plenty of others like it that aren't covered under the 'well there's a big cock in the shot' explanation. So why are they used? I'm at a loss. *shrug*

I mean look how people use Nicole Dupre's old photos in attacks against her. If that doesn't underscore the importance of the question, I don't know what does. You don't see GG porn stars doing that kind of thing to each other, and in fact most questionable photos in that aspect of the biz would never even see the light of day, so why are these practices acceptable when it comes to TS girls?

~BB~

I'm constantly amazed at the images that my company chooses from a photo set (or any company for that matter) to promote me, because I don't necessarily feel comfortable with their choices. But that doesn't mean that someone else won't be really turned on by those images. So I try to not sweat it when I see a pic that I think is not flattering, because what I think is most attractive isn't necessarily gonna give someone else a boner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by seanchai

Well this is probably aimed at us, as I don't think you've done that many other shoots past SMC and Strokers?

Maybe it's because what YOU think is good an representation of what we're selling, is different from what actually sells. We've been doing this a long time and not all our marketing is spot on but most of it is (the proof is in the pudding, we have awesome sales and possibly more members than other sites, so something must be right.

The "uber-professional" Shemale Club, whose site's I like a lot, take an approach where they retouch the content very heavily, in my opinion and are going for a more Playboy look. This works well for their target audience but not so well for ours. However, the girls tend to love how they look in those shoots, because they are so glamouress and their skins smoothed out, wrinkles removed, etc.

I don't know anywhere which would "make or break" a girl or have any reason to do that. The photos/videos should be representative of that model. Different models, may have different assets that you want to promote (or not so good ones you may wish to hide) so their marketing may differ.

seanchai

---

I gotta say Im with Seanchai on this one.

First off lets face it we are a niche market especially for content that somone is brave enough to spend money on in this day and age of too many free sites/collections and pirated content. This means less sales and profits to justify production costs no matter what they are.

Next as a TS most of us tend to be fairly self critical we often do not see ourselves the same way our fans do. Ive had fans tell me that they love this or that photo or film that I have done only for me to inwardly grown because how I looked didnt match MY perception of how I Should look. The thing is I am not the customer and thats really who this is about pleasing. Its really hard to step away from your own self perceptions for ANY Model, take the whole TS self image thing and you should double how hard it is to be objective when looking at ourselves at very least.

I see an every rising trend in production values in TS content. Some of that is driven by the market and the fans demanding higher quality content but some of it is driven by lower costs for higher grade equipment such as Digital camera's and HiDef video. You can produce a lot better content today than you could 10 years ago for the same budget no doubt about that. Now toss in advances in editing and post production software and publishing and you have another trend thats pushing things to higher values.

There is a Market for everything. Just because one of us TS dont like a certain style or look or think that it lacks production values dosent mean squat if there are a good number of *Paying* customers who find that style or look attractive, and there might also be a number of potential customers who cant stand it and complain. The content Producer/Publisher is really the one to decide what to market and what not to based on what they see in their demographics and market trends.

Which brings me to the last of my major points. the Producer/Publisher is also taking all the risk . Sure it might have some impact on our future as models but we have been bought and paid for which is all we really signed up for. So while I would LOVE it if a company were to Push me or a shoot I did for them I have no right to expect that unless it was in the contract. If they promote wrong they get to eat the cost and every last company has done that more than a few times.

Im just trying to be practical about all this.

Do I think that production values could stand to increase?
YES
But I would also say that any other product out there could be improved as well no matter what it is.

Do I think that there are a number of models that have been under utilized, poorly promoted or not given the treatment they deserve.
YES
But I dont have the data to show if my guess is right or wrong only the publisher can be the judge of that.

Do I think that Publishers make mistakes, blunders and otherwise cause their own market harm.
YES
But I wont ever be the one to say that Im always gong to be right either... this is a money and profits game it has very little to do with Artistry.

Really the only choice for us as TS models have to be pushed. produced and represented is for us to do it ourselves Via Solo sites, blogs, or any other way we can. Then we become the publisher and have our shot to prove anyone else wrong but only if we really are correct about ourselves. So we can either ask that it be included in whatever agreement we enter into for a shoot or we put ourselves on the line and do it ourselves, unless we ask for it and they offer it we have no right to complain at best we can make requests or suggestions but demands are best left for things were iron clad in contract.

If we want certain things we should ask for them and then decide based on the answer if we really want to work with company XYZ. We are not forced to work with anyone in the adult industry, we can simply say no. Or we decide that we value the cash more and let them decide our fate which is really our decision to let them have that power or not.

Im sorry to say but I think its really all on us

Whew I just wrote that at almost 6:30 AM... why the hell am I up??? and of course, I have to wonder how bad this is going to read after I try out this new thing called Sleep that Ive been hearing about... not to mention Spelling... oh god what I might have done to the english language with this keyboard...

Love ya Bella but this time I gotta disagree
If we want to control our own destiny we need to seize it or live with letting others direct the flow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TempestTS

There is a Market for everything.

---

Really now? Sure, beauty is the eye of the beholder, blah blah blah, but sometimes ugly is just ugly. Is there a market for this?

http://howuglyami.com/ugly001.jpg

Oh wait. That's me. Damn! :P

~BB~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TempestTS

There is a Market for everything.

---

Really now? Sure, beauty is the eye of the beholder, blah blah blah, but sometimes ugly is just ugly. Is there a market for this?

I think not. I think we can all agree that this girl is fugly and that nobody would pay to see her get naked or gods forbid fuck. I'm just saying - beauty isn't always subjective. Sometimes it just is... or in some cases, like this one, isn't. ;)

~BB~

---

Actually I would guess that there is somebody out there somewhere that for whater reason is completely turned on by someone like her and would pay good money to see her in a movie or pics.

Go over to the Clibs4Sale site and just take a look at all the strange categories you can buy content for...

Toothbrushing

Sweat Fetish

Ugly

Spinal Brace Fetish

Sneezing

Hiccups

coughing fetish

Nose Pinching


Seriously... I cant even concieve of thinking how anyone would be able to get off on a fetish for Hiccups or Nose Pinching but apparently there is a market for it otherwise why bother filming it and having a category for it...
Sneezing fetish??? WTF, somebody is paying 7.99 for an 11 minute clip of somone Sneezing and wiping snot off their face? I dont get it but I guess thats at least one persons idea of a hot fantasy.

And yes there is a category for UGLY... If you have a twisted kink there is someone out there who will film it and sell it to you I guess.

So the answer if there is a market for That?

YES!! but I cant begin to explain why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tsmandy

I'm constantly amazed at the images that my company chooses from a photo set (or any company for that matter) to promote me, because I don't necessarily feel comfortable with their choices. But that doesn't mean that someone else won't be really turned on by those images. So I try to not sweat it when I see a pic that I think is not flattering, because what I think is most attractive isn't necessarily gonna give someone else a boner.

---

Exactly. Talent gets paid for being talent. Producers get paid to deliver the product THEIR CLIENT wants (whether they are in house producers like at Grooby and others, our outside contractors). And site owners/publishers pay for it all, take the financial risks and choose what they want to try to sell.

Now, if some girl was told she was posing for glamor shots for Playboy and ended up in some local rag looking like a crack ho, she'd have something to complain about. But 95% of the time if the girl bothered to spend 5 minutes and looked at the site they were posing for, they would know what to expect their shoot was going to look like. If you go look at the site and there's 10 years worth of photo sets up of girls "bad side" being shown, you can't be too surprised when you do a shoot for them and your set ends up looking like the same style that 100's of other photo sets look like. If you don't want pics like that up, don't go shoot with that company and don't collect the money.

Or if you want TOTAL control over everything, do what Tara Emory, Jennifer Paris and other girls do and produce/publish your own stuff.

I'm sure you signed a Model Release before the shoot. I can't tell you how many times we've had girls call us months or even years after doing shoots for us and demanding we take their pics down that WE OWN and have had on our sites for years. We paid them, we paid for studios, equipment, editing, etc.,etc, etc. If you are going to do porn, it's going to be around FOREVER. If you can't think about the consequences of having EVERYTHING that got shot at your gig possbily showing up at ANY time in the future... DON'T DO IT.

And I'll give away one of the biggest secrets in the Adult business (sorry to all my peers for letting this cat out of the bag in public). There's only 2 reasons to do porn as flat rate/day rate/scene rate talent:
1) You're an attention starved exhibitionist who is looking for their 15 minutes of fame at ANY cost, or
2) So you can raise your escorting rates for being a "porn star".
(and reason 2 is WAYYYYYYYY better than reason 1; so much so that I really only mean reason 2, but throw in reason 1 for people who point out the 1 in 1,000 girls who go into it for that reason and get what they think they want).

I think Bella has a point. For me, both Shemale Club and Ladyboy69 stand out as sites who consistently put some thought into pre-production and the actual shoot. The lighting is excellent. They think about the background colors... walls, sheets, furniture, etc., that contrast against a girl's skin color. It's just easier to watch these videos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slinky

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tsmandy

I'm constantly amazed at the images that my company chooses from a photo set (or any company for that matter) to promote me, because I don't necessarily feel comfortable with their choices. But that doesn't mean that someone else won't be really turned on by those images. So I try to not sweat it when I see a pic that I think is not flattering, because what I think is most attractive isn't necessarily gonna give someone else a boner.

---

Exactly. Talent gets paid for being talent. Producers get paid to deliver the product THEIR CLIENT wants (whether they are in house producers like at Grooby and others, our outside contractors). And site owners/publishers pay for it all, take the financial risks and choose what they want to try to sell.

Now, if some girl was told she was posing for glamor shots for Playboy and ended up in some local rag looking like a crack ho, she'd have something to complain about. But 95% of the time if the girl bothered to spend 5 minutes and looked at the site they were posing for, they would know what to expect their shoot was going to look like. If you go look at the site and there's 10 years worth of photo sets up of girls "bad side" being shown, you can't be too surprised when you do a shoot for them and your set ends up looking like the same style that 100's of other photo sets look like. If you don't want pics like that up, don't go shoot with that company and don't collect the money.

Or if you want TOTAL control over everything, do what Tara Emory, Jennifer Paris and other girls do and produce/publish your own stuff.

I'm sure you signed a Model Release before the shoot. I can't tell you how many times we've had girls call us months or even years after doing shoots for us and demanding we take their pics down that WE OWN and have had on our sites for years. We paid them, we paid for studios, equipment, editing, etc.,etc, etc. If you are going to do porn, it's going to be around FOREVER. If you can't think about the consequences of having EVERYTHING that got shot at your gig possbily showing up at ANY time in the future... DON'T DO IT.

And I'll give away one of the biggest secrets in the Adult business (sorry to all my peers for letting this cat out of the bag in public). There's only 2 reasons to do porn as flat rate/day rate/scene rate talent:
1) You're an attention starved exhibitionist who is looking for their 15 minutes of fame at ANY cost, or
2) So you can raise your escorting rates for being a "porn star".
(and reason 2 is WAYYYYYYYY better than reason 1; so much so that I really only mean reason 2, but throw in reason 1 for people who point out the 1 in 1,000 girls who go into it for that reason and get what they think they want).

---

Good points

Shit.... beat out again by slow typing.

TempestTST you hit the nail squarely on the head.

Oh, and by the end of the day today some guy, somewhere, will be jerking off to the first post on this page.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slinky

Or if you want TOTAL control over everything, do what Tara Emory, Jennifer Paris and other girls do and produce/publish your own stuff.

---

Tara is a great example. She always wanted to do things more artful than just naked sex so she decided to see if she could do that and find a market for it. Spends lots of time and money on her shoots and I think they look great but I am pretty certain that Grooby and Shemale Club have more site members. The real question is if she is happy with the returns for what she is doing.

My solo site just opened this year... Im losing buckets of cash vs income but I really like what Im doing and I think there is a market for it if I can push the word out but I like what Im doing enough that even if I lost every dime I spent I would say I was happy to do it because a large part of that is artistic self expression which I value more than money. Some would say Im an idiot for tossing money away like that... I would say Im happy so it dosent matter.

I would be hard pressed to find a single person in this world that has always been given the credit and due that they deserve but I would find it quite easy to find a few people that I think got quite a bit more than they are worth or deserve. (Hmmm George W. Bush.... oh I digress)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odelay

I think Bella has a point. For me, both Shemale Club and Ladyboy69 stand out as sites who consistently put some thought into pre-production and the actual shoot. The lighting is excellent. They think about the background colors... walls, sheets, furniture, etc., that contrast against a girl's skin color. It's just easier to watch these videos.

---

I have to hand it to the Grooby people though. They have something for everyone including myself focused on a particular niche. Sometimes the girls can seem so far away or larger than life, but Grooby has a way of presenting them like the real people they are who could even be the girl next door. Too much airbrushing or shooting under obviously contrived circumstances can sure make a girl seem artificial or plastic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TempestTS

There is a Market for everything.

---

Really now? Sure, beauty is the eye of the beholder, blah blah blah, but sometimes ugly is just ugly. Is there a market for this?

http://howuglyami.com/ugly001.jpg

Oh wait. That's me. Damn! :P

~BB~

---

And BTW, I have to try to be delicate about this, but there's a girl on the NYC party circuit....... well .... those who know, know what I'm talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TempestTS

Actually I would guess that there is somebody out there somewhere that for whater reason is completely turned on by someone like her and would pay good money to see her in a movie or pics.

---

Cletus the slack-jawed yokel maybe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TempestTS

Go over to the Clibs4Sale site and just take a look at all the strange categories you can buy content for...

Toothbrushing

Sweat Fetish

Ugly

Spinal Brace Fetish

Sneezing

Hiccups

coughing fetish

Nose Pinching

---

And you think OUR niche is small? I mean you're talking about amateur stuff on Clips4Sale, not Playboy, Hustler, or even Yum. Ok fine, there IS an audience for everything, but three guys living in a trailer sandwiched between a prison and a landfill drinking moonshine don't qualify as a demographic. The only reason Clips4Sale has those categories is because they don't have to produce content so it doesn't cost them anything to offer them. They're not a production site dishing out money for shoots and expecting to make a profit. Therefore, you aren't presenting any evidence beyond the anecdotal to justify marketing in a manner that is not beneficial to the model and only questionably beneficial to the studio.

~BB~

porn in general has no quality control.... only a few sites do

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phobun

I have to hand it to the Grooby people though. They have something for everyone including myself focused on a particular niche. Sometimes the girls can seem so far away or larger than life, but Grooby has a way of presenting them like the real people they are who could even be the girl next door. Too much airbrushing or shooting under obviously contrived circumstances can sure make a girl seem artificial or plastic.

---

This is one of the pieces of advice I give to my clients about putting ads on Eros and the like but want to use glamor/art shots: there's one thing the guy knows when he sees them: whoever opens the door when he gets to the appointment, it's not going to be the girl in the photograph, because NO ONE LOOKS LIKE THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS. I had several discussions with girls this week about it because more and more photographers are so overly heavy handed in photoshopping the living shit out of stuff that you might as well just paint it instead. Because it would be equally realistic looking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Therefore, you aren't presenting any evidence beyond the anecdotal to justify marketing in a manner that is not beneficial to the model and only questionably beneficial to the studio.

~BB~

---

A studio in business a long time with a good track record probably knows what is beneficial to the studio.

You lean libertarian/free market, right? Wasn't it the legendary Adam Smith himself who wrote: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own neccessities but of their advantages."

I think the studio will naturally always operate with the studio's interest first, but that said, photographers like Buddy Wood sure appear to be gentlemen and first class in how they treat the girls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

And you think OUR niche is small? I mean you're talking about amateur stuff on Clips4Sale, not Playboy, Hustler, or even Yum. Ok fine, there IS an audience for everything, but three guys living in a trailer sandwiched between a prison and a landfill drinking moonshine don't qualify as a demographic. The only reason Clips4Sale has those categories is because they don't have to produce content so it doesn't cost them anything to offer them. They're not a production site dishing out money for shoots and expecting to make a profit. Therefore, you aren't presenting any evidence beyond the anecdotal to justify marketing in a manner that is not beneficial to the model and only questionably beneficial to the studio.

~BB~

---

1) We had a German client who for 2 years had us shooting 1 or 2 scenes a week of girls with the ugliest feet we could find (corns, bunyons, hammer toes) painting their toenails. And their checks came in like clockwork. Sometimes it was so hard to find girls with ugly enough feet we picked up women at the local homeless shelter as "foot doubles" and shot other girls for the beginning and cut to them for the foot shots.

2) www.2girls1cup.com. www.1guy1jar.com , www.kids-in-sandbox.com , www.oldslippers.com , www.crackwhoreconfessions.com , www.anorexicporn.net , www.chubbypokers.com I could go on and on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phobun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Therefore, you aren't presenting any evidence beyond the anecdotal to justify marketing in a manner that is not beneficial to the model and only questionably beneficial to the studio.

~BB~

---

A studio in business a long time with a good track record probably knows what is beneficial to the studio.

You lean libertarian/free market, right? Wasn't it the legendary Adam Smith himself who wrote: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own neccessities but of their advantages."

I think the studio will naturally always operate with the studio's interest first, but that said, photographers like Buddy Wood sure appear to be gentlemen and first class in how they treat the girls.

---

Excellent point. Except that you neglect to mention that there's too much politicking that goes on in our niche so sometimes the best thing for a studio to do is to make a short-term sacrifice in order to neutralize a long-term threat.

In my case, I tend to challenge the major players in this game in an effort to improve the situation for both myself and the younger models who dare not speak up. Is it really that far fetched to believe that there are some who wish that I would just shut up and go away and who want to keep me and others like me from getting any more modeling work by marketing us improperly? It seems like a pretty simple solution to the problem of those who would question the authority of the supposed hierarchy.

Girls tell me all the time that porn and activism don't mix and I argue to the contrary because what they are saying is only true if one cares about their modeling career more than they do about making a difference. I don't.

~BB~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slinky

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

And you think OUR niche is small? I mean you're talking about amateur stuff on Clips4Sale, not Playboy, Hustler, or even Yum. Ok fine, there IS an audience for everything, but three guys living in a trailer sandwiched between a prison and a landfill drinking moonshine don't qualify as a demographic. The only reason Clips4Sale has those categories is because they don't have to produce content so it doesn't cost them anything to offer them. They're not a production site dishing out money for shoots and expecting to make a profit. Therefore, you aren't presenting any evidence beyond the anecdotal to justify marketing in a manner that is not beneficial to the model and only questionably beneficial to the studio.

~BB~

---

1) We had a German client who for 2 years had us shooting 1 or 2 scenes a week of girls with the ugliest feet we could find (corns, bunyons, hammer toes) painting their toenails. And their checks came in like clockwork. Sometimes it was so hard to find girls with ugly enough feet we picked up women at the local homeless shelter as "foot doubles" and shot other girls for the beginning and cut to them for the foot shots.

2) 2girls1cup.com. 1guy1jar.com, www.kids-in-sandbox.com, http://whoresblog.com/dtr/galls/150817/ , crackwhoreconfessions.com I could go on and on

---

One or two scenes a week? Well of course you were making money. You were limiting the content. What's more is that all of the fetishes you can list are part of the broader 'fetish niche.' So if a TS girl has ugly ears, that means she should be marketed under the fetish niche instead of the TS niche? That's certainly not what I signed up for. Sure, we all sign away our rights to our photos but that's because we presumably trust those who would control the content. We should be able to reasonably assume that our photos will be used in the most flattering way possible. I for one would not sign a model release if I thought for a second that that wouldn't be the case - and I didn't. Sure, it's all legal, but for many of us models, it's still a betrayal of our trust in the producer.

~BB~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slinky

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phobun

I have to hand it to the Grooby people though. They have something for everyone including myself focused on a particular niche. Sometimes the girls can seem so far away or larger than life, but Grooby has a way of presenting them like the real people they are who could even be the girl next door. Too much airbrushing or shooting under obviously contrived circumstances can sure make a girl seem artificial or plastic.

---

This is one of the pieces of advice I give to my clients about putting ads on Eros and the like but want to use glamor/art shots: there's one thing the guy knows when he sees them: whoever opens the door when he gets to the appointment, it's not going to be the girl in the photograph, because NO ONE LOOKS LIKE THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS. I had several discussions with girls this week about it because more and more photographers are so overly heavy handed in photoshopping the living shit out of stuff that you might as well just paint it instead. Because it would be equally realistic looking.

---

I gotta co-sign this. I always get a kick out of girls who shop their pics to death but the truth in the escorting biz is that the most important thing to do is just to get guys to call and work the rest out later! lol

~BB~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

So if a TS girl has ugly ears, that means she should be marketed under the fetish niche instead of the TS niche?

---

ok.

www.oldtransexuals.com

Well if you don't mean Grooby, then why don't you point the finger at the site's you mean, Bella instead of being an "activist" against nothing.

I totally disagree that Shemale Yum goes on quantity and not quality, that's absolute rubbish. What we do go for, is a wider range of transgenders than most websites. Model's like yourself who don't fit into the typical "shemale pornstar" category are given an opportunity and I doubt many of the models that we feature, would have been given an opportunity by other companies until they'd seen how they'd photographed.

As far as the number of photos in a set goes, we roughly delete about 25% of them as they're unusable. We then retouch each image individually, generally trying to take out unwanted pimples, blemishes of other problems (mostly skin) including sometimes nipple scars. We don't usually touch other scars or do too much face work other than above. Other companies, use the same feature on photoshop to blanket the whole set, giving them the conformity that works for them and their members. It might be easier on the eye but it looks false and takes a lot away from people looking for the real models, in my opinion. Each approach has it's own place in the market.

As far as some companies working with makeup artists and hair stylist, then good for them, I'm happy that they can work that into their budget. We generally do this only on one site, http://www.shemalepornstar.com which has a higher budget per shoot. It wouldn't work on our other sites and frankly, I don't want to see over made-up/styled shoots either. If a transgender model can't at least get her makeup and/or hair right, then she's probably not worth working with. (yeah, yeah, I know, we've some models with bad makeup and hair, but they don't get reshoots).

I don't know who politics you are thinking about in this niche. I can tell you what Grooby politics are exactly.

a) To work with any models who can perform within our guidelines whom I think would fit the sites well. I get the photos of every model before we shoot.
b) To reshoot models who've had great feedback, either in our ratings, our comments or on our forums.

That's all. No other subterfuge. Sometimes we get models who are unhappy as we can't work with them as much as they'd wish but we go off what keeps our members happy and what will bring in new members.

As another poster mentioned, why on earth would a site want to promote photos that weren't complimentary to the model or her assets? I can't imagine one site doing this as it wouldn't make any business or economic sense whatsover. Often models have an self-awareness that is very different from how they actually present themselves. It's up to us to find the most marketable shots to get interested people, into the site.

seanchai

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Excellent point. Except that you neglect to mention that there's too much politicking that goes on in our niche so sometimes the best thing for a studio to do is to make a short-term sacrifice in order to neutralize a long-term threat.

In my case, I tend to challenge the major players in this game in an effort to improve the situation for both myself and the younger models who dare not speak up. Is it really that far fetched to believe that there are some who wish that I would just shut up and go away and who want to keep me and others like me from getting any more modeling work by marketing us improperly? It seems like a pretty simple solution to the problem of those who would question the authority of the supposed hierarchy.

Girls tell me all the time that porn and activism don't mix and I argue to the contrary because what they are saying is only true if one cares about their modeling career more than they do about making a difference. I don't.

~BB~

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Sure, we all sign away our rights to our photos but that's because we presumably trust those who would control the content. We should be able to reasonably assume that our photos will be used in the most flattering way possible. I for one would not sign a model release if I thought for a second that that wouldn't be the case - and I didn't. Sure, it's all legal, but for many of us models, it's still a betrayal of our trust in the producer.

~BB~

---

OK, so you like to go and upset the applecart and piss in producer's cornflakes and be an activist, and at the same time think that in return you should be able to trust those same producers to make you look the best you can possibly look even if it's against their own economic interest/business model, and seem to think that rather than them posting these pics to bring in business there is a "huge right wing conspiracy" to keep TS models in their places by posting ugly pics of any girls who "dare" to speak out against the posting of "ugly pics"? And that you also go do shoots for companies who use these tactics to "control the system in the long term" who you speak out against because they do such things, so that you can go and speak out about them doing it?

best bet to make good money and a name in modelling ... launch your own website , hire your own models etc ... then as and when you pick model shoots for other sites its just basically paid marketing ... bonus to draw people to your own site ...

with your own site you can produce to what ever level you wish .... there is simply not enough work about in the ts niche to base a modelling career just living off earning from paid shoots .... no one shoots 5 days a week month after month for multisites do they :)

of course some sites will market or put more time in shooting certain models that get the ratings in for them , that makes them money ... but take a look at yum as an example, each model has a bio page that will have a link to your ownwebsite ....you can also use some of the pics in youv set to use to promote as well....

fortune favours the bold as they say :) self promote ...

i didnt like some of hte pics used from sites by me to promote me ,,, but all i did was pic some pics i did like and market them instead along side ...

my 2 pence :) i could go on alot more ...

Unbelievable! I have to word this carefully so as not to be accused of attacking the OP. First let me state I have worked for 3 production companies in the past 12 years, I've been in front of the camera, behind it, done web design, edited film, been in shipping, customer service etc.

I have seen producers put up with some flaky ass models and some crazy shit, if their sets got alot of positive feedback, or their videos flew off the shelf. I've seen producers willing to try something new, for example, I set up my old boss with Olivia Love for his first TS shoot.

Some models just didnt sell. And alot of times it would surprise the hell out of us. The guys loved the girl we didnt think they would, and the glamour babe they could do without, you never knew.

We are in a RECESSION. A model could be the biggest pain in the ass in the world, and if she sold, they would bring her back. Again and again. Sometimes a model just doesnt sell, and to blame the producers, who are in business to make money, isnt fair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TempestTS

Actually I would guess that there is somebody out there somewhere that for whater reason is completely turned on by someone like her and would pay good money to see her in a movie or pics.

---

Cletus the slack-jawed yokel maybe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TempestTS

Go over to the Clibs4Sale site and just take a look at all the strange categories you can buy content for...

Toothbrushing

Sweat Fetish

Ugly

Spinal Brace Fetish

Sneezing

Hiccups

coughing fetish

Nose Pinching

---

And you think OUR niche is small? I mean you're talking about amateur stuff on Clips4Sale, not Playboy, Hustler, or even Yum. Ok fine, there IS an audience for everything, but three guys living in a trailer sandwiched between a prison and a landfill drinking moonshine don't qualify as a demographic. The only reason Clips4Sale has those categories is because they don't have to produce content so it doesn't cost them anything to offer them. They're not a production site dishing out money for shoots and expecting to make a profit. Therefore, you aren't presenting any evidence beyond the anecdotal to justify marketing in a manner that is not beneficial to the model and only questionably beneficial to the studio.

~BB~

---

Well if we go up against Straight porn or even Gay/lesbian porn yes our niche is much smaller but its also much bigger than it was 10 years ago which says a couple things about its growth but you also have to factor in carrying capacity of the market. If your niche is rare you can make a lot of money but as some people jump in once they see the money the fanbase will only grow to a certain level then it becomes hard to make money and several companies might close because they run into the red, or they might up the production quality or spend money on promotion to see if they can push the market wider. It might work, It might not... its not a easy yes or no answer there are way too many things to take into account.

Clips4Sale has a great concept. They host content in their system for anyone who wants to provide it and they take a cut of the profit. Largely they leave it up to the content providers to market for them. Im guessing that they dont have a huge marketing budget but might spend a little to continue to attract more producers so they have more content and more sub companies who will push their site for them. BRILLIANT!

They have all those different Fetish niche categories not only because its easy, its because "Somebody" is producing and "somebody" is buying and when you have millions of clips and photos in all those sub niche offerings it adds up to a lot in the end even if the Guy stuck in Siberia Russia with the toothbrush and sneezing fetish only buys one clip a month. As long as he keeps buying money is money right?

Not to mention that Clips4Sale also has content for several large studios. They already own the content, prices on individual clips are so high that only a couple of them sold are similar to a one month trial on a lot of sites. And of course you cant leave out the advertising value of just being on a site with lots of traffic who might see their studio while browsing for amateur toe-nail clipping porn and stop in to buy something or at least remember they saw it and visit the producers main site later.

Yes there is a market for everything... if your a very small niche your fanbase will be very dedicated since its hard to find anyone else producing it... as long as no other sellers enter the market youll probably do well.

One guy is a landfill with a jug of moonshine is a demographic as long as he is buying what your selling, if he's buying a lot you might want to advertise in other landfills who knows what untapped market youll find :lol:

How do you measure success?

Is it dollars or enjoyment of what you do
Or is it both.

Can a choice of content, style of work, or advertising always going to pay off based on the data you make your decisions on?
Of Course Not... R ember the Sony Beta-max VCR system? Better in just about every way but flopped.

Could producers change the way they do things and improve the market?
YES... but I have no idea what would work and what would not. if I had the answers Id already be rich. And some shit just never makes sense no matter what "Yoko Ono anyone?"

Do I feel that I was marked correctly by every company I worked for.
No. But its not personal and its just what they viewed as best for their marketing budget at the time... I have no beef there.
Am I sure about that?
Hell no but Id like to at least believe I have something more to offer so Im going to give it a shot. I might prove them right and fall on my ass or I might prove them wrong and do quite well but either way I will have learned from the attempt and I believe in trying to follow my dreams so its ok either way at least Ill be doing what i want to be doing.

Do I feel that you Bella have not hit your true potential as an adult model.
YES. I still want to bring you up here to shoot for TS-Rockdolls.

Do I know it will be worth my investment. Is it "For Sure"
No but I think I see more in you than I have yet to see on any shoot youve done so Im willing to risk money I barely have just to find out.

HEY THATS A DUMB IDEA! Im risking money that I can hardly spare on someone that I dont really know based on no hard data but only because I have a hunch?
Yes Its probably not the best thing to spend my money on but its what I want to do so Im going to do it simply because I believe you have a lot more potential, but I dont believe for a second that my little indi site can give you a push even in 10 years of the best promo and production that I can offer than you would get in 10 days as just being in a Grooby YUM December gallery. Lets face it Grooby is a traffic monster for model visibility even if they dont formally do promotion on you.

There is certainly room for improvement and change in any business model. There always will be but change always comes with some risk because its too complex to predict no matter how much or what data you collect.

You look at your cards and place your bet on not only what you can see but what you feel but youll never know for sure. So dont become too personally invested in the game or let it tear you apart if you lose. If your only in it for the win you shouldnt even play, you need to be in it because you enjoy the game not because you are looking for a specific outcome. Its hard not to take things personal when its you up there in that photograph or in that video but its not "YOU" that they are seeing, its just a bunch of pixels on a screen that might or might not have some additional data that indicates how that group of pixels would be best used by company XYZ.

No guarantees on anything in life but I hope you stick around in this adult industry to show your true potential and do your best to enjoy the ride getting there.

Even though Im in disagreement with you Bella on this issue its just a debate of opinions. I think your a fantastic gal and really do hope that we do get the chance to work together some day soon ;)

TempestTS you are one smart cookie. If you ever get to NYC i'd love to chat with you. In the meanwhile if there's anything i can do to help you with Adult marketing advice, I would be glad to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slinky

TempestTS you are one smart cookie.

---

Not only smart but from all dealings I've had with her, eloquent and very cool.
If anyone hasn't checked out her site, please do. We're about to start some promotions on it. It's great to see models like Tempest and Mandy producing content on their own terms and very different to the more mainstream TS porn.

Having a solo amateur site and working with only one other person here are a few of my observations.

Production value: We try to mix this up a bit - we have the equipment and know how to do high end glamorous shoots but don't have the budget to pull it off on a weekly basis (I update my site every week). Plus members enjoy some variety so I'll do casual shoots or outdoor shoots (which are more tricky because you have less control over the lighting and environment) or shoots with a specific theme. Of course we try to do the best we can on every shoot but still like to keep some of the amateur charm. But there are times as both a model and as a photographer that I do miss the mark or fall short. We all have good days and bad days on both sides of the lens.

Modeling is tricky. Even working with the same photographer for the last 6 years I still find myself a little surprised (sometimes in a good way and sometimes not so much) looking at pictures after a shoot. Like I was giving you all THIS and you shot THAT???

I edit all of my pictures and video. For photos I generally go through the whole raw set and toss out all of the obvious duds. Then go through again and find which ones are repeats or blurry. Then I generally go through the photoshopping process. I resize, flip pics around where needed, make any lighting adjustments, then touch up where needed. I try not to be too heavy handed but that gets tougher and tougher as I get older. Then, depending on the size of the set, I'll pare it down even further.

When I'm deciding which pics to keep and which to toss out I can't have my partner in the same room with me. Sometimes she'll look over my shoulder and say "You're getting rid of that shot!?! That's one of my favorites!" And then the debate begins on what I dislike about it VS what she likes. "You're ass looks so hot there." "Yeah, but look at the face I'm making." And on and on. So I find it best to make sure the door is closed when I going through this process.

Trixie creates most of the promotional galleries for my site so she chooses which pics are included there. I swear if we were to pick 15 pictures out of a set there might be one or two that were actually the same. Obviously we try not to give away the 15 best shots out of a set, I mean you want to leave people wanting more and don't want them to be disappointed when they do join. Ultimately I get the final say in what goes out for promo but I've come to realize that with any shot that I don't like, she obviously has seen something she does like. So I'll usually just let it slide.

I'm still amazed at which pics from a set that a member will pick out as a favorite. I haven't found any rhyme or reason in it. Totally subjective and varies from individual. I try to keep that in mind when I'm thinning out a set and if I question whether to keep or get rid of a shot I'll usually keep it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by slinky

OK, so you like to go and upset the applecart and piss in producer's cornflakes and be an activist, and at the same time think that in return you should be able to trust those same producers to make you look the best you can possibly look even if it's against their own economic interest/business model, and seem to think that rather than them posting these pics to bring in business there is a "huge right wing conspiracy" to keep TS models in their places by posting ugly pics of any girls who "dare" to speak out against the posting of "ugly pics"? And that you also go do shoots for companies who use these tactics to "control the system in the long term" who you speak out against because they do such things, so that you can go and speak out about them doing it?

---

I'm not pissing in anyone's anything. If I wanted to do that I would start tossing out crude personal insults and such. I'm just looking for a dialog. As far as the activism thing goes, I sum it up to this: it's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it. It might as well be me. Can you see Kimber or Kelly Shore or Yasmine Lee doing it? I didn't think so. lol

And I'm not alleging that there's a conspiracy. It's not that complicated. Again, what's so far fetched about someone who has control over someone's else career exercising that control for the 'greater good.' If I'm willing to make sacrifices so that other models can have better benefits, what makes people think others wouldn't do so to protect their larger interests? Frankly, those who accuse others of being conspiracy theorists tend to be guilty parties or those quick to defend the status quo. No tin foil hats or reptilian overlords necessary!

I may be wrong, but I'm not paranoid. It's just a theory.

~BB~

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TempestTS

One guy is a landfill with a jug of moonshine is a demographic as long as he is buying what your selling, if he's buying a lot you might want to advertise in other landfills who knows what untapped market youll find :lol:

---

Right, but the models that cater to that 'demographic' know who their audience is and accept the degrading role they've been offered. In our niche we all try to look our best and expect to be promoted accordingly. It's not about law, technical prowess, content rights, etc. It's about expectations. We expect to be promoted as sexy, beautiful, and desirable, not by bunions, crooked fingers, drug use (crack whores), body fat, etc. That's all I'm saying.

~BB~

Thanks for the shout out Seanchai.

I'd just like to chime in here . There are many different ways to focus on production. Lighting gear and makeup are only a few. I spend the bulk of my production costs on hiring phenomenally talented videographers, photographers, rope bondage experts, and video editors, even though I could shoot with SMC in LA for free. I don't look nearly as glamorous in my shoots that I produce as I do in my LA shoots. So why do I do it? I do it like this because I'm an action girl. I love the action. I don't give a shit about looking like Barbie, I wanna make hot and filthy pornography. I've found a crew of people that I click really well with, and I'm willing to shift my focus from hyper control of my appearance to hyper control of my content.

GG's in porn don't face the nearly constant self loathing and doubt that TS do in regards to our appearances. Look at nearly all straight/girl-girl hardcore and those bitches get fucked up. Makeup all over the face, hair a mess, and guys go crazy for it. But we TS constantly have to worry about our own self loathing and other people possibly thinking we are not looking passable.

I'm at a point in my career where I want to make porn that goes beyond this. If my hair gets messed up, and I have makeup running that doesn't make me less passable, it just means I'm having a good time like any other women would. I think this attitude has actually been integral to my success in this industry.