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Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
So far, not so good. It could be a deliberate smear campaign by those who don't support the Democrats at any time -eg, the Telegraph article linked via Yahoo- or those who think she is in a thankless job but could nevertheless make more of her status to reach out to the people she needs if she is the nominee in 2024 -but is this a big IF? I don't know much about her other than what I read in the press, so I wonder what other people think? But as I said in another post, if she is the nominee in 2024 Trump's disciples will consider his success a 'slam dunk'.
https://news.yahoo.com/future-presid...ycsrp_catchall
https://news.yahoo.com/democrats-kam...tLxpJV_RSseiYg
My post is a reference to JS Bach's Cantata, linked here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzWJsRjanC4
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
The articles on Harris continue to cast doubt on her as a politician, and her potential ascendancy to the White House as President.
On the one hand, as Vice-President she will never have the profile of the 'Boss', and if given tasks, such as dealing with illegal immigration and border control that cannot be resolved without significant policy agreements with the Central American states where most of the immigrants come from, it is either a thankless task, or one that will take years to achieve.
On the other hand, the changes taking place to US society that give non-White non-Christians the edge in urban conurbations, suggests that Harris has a 'natural' constituency of voters who look like her, identify with her personal history, and could warm to her if she has the right policy options that appeal to them, as well as a broad section of the US population including the 'White' blue collar and Middle Class voters Democrats tend to rely on.
Some reports suggest the problem is her, that she is difficult to work with and does not inspire much personal loyalty, that she regularly changes her staff. The media does her no favours being mostly anti-Democrat, while the opportunities for the pro-Republican media to denigrate her for reasons that have nothing to do with her politics would guaranteee an ugly, nasty campaign were she to run for the White House.
I think she needs to carve out a space for herself which promotes popular policies and presents her as a competent manager. But does she have both to work with?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60061473
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
The articles on Harris continue to cast doubt on her as a politician, and her potential ascendancy to the White House as President.
On the one hand, as Vice-President she will never have the profile of the 'Boss', and if given tasks, such as dealing with illegal immigration and border control that cannot be resolved without significant policy agreements with the Central American states where most of the immigrants come from, it is either a thankless task, or one that will take years to achieve.
On the other hand, the changes taking place to US society that give non-White non-Christians the edge in urban conurbations, suggests that Harris has a 'natural' constituency of voters who look like her, identify with her personal history, and could warm to her if she has the right policy options that appeal to them, as well as a broad section of the US population including the 'White' blue collar and Middle Class voters Democrats tend to rely on.
Some reports suggest the problem is her, that she is difficult to work with and does not inspire much personal loyalty, that she regularly changes her staff. The media does her no favours being mostly anti-Democrat, while the opportunities for the pro-Republican media to denigrate her for reasons that have nothing to do with her politics would guaranteee an ugly, nasty campaign were she to run for the White House.
I think she needs to carve out a space for herself which promotes popular policies and presents her as a competent manager. But does she have both to work with?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60061473
Do you honestly believe that media is anti-Democrat?
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blackchubby38
Do you honestly believe that media is anti-Democrat?
A throwaway comment, but there is probably more anti-Harris and critical press on Biden here than in the US. It might not work in the US but the media scene there is confusing as I doubt most Americans get their news from the Times, Post and CNN. But thanks anyway for not responding to the purpose of the thread, which apart from your post has excited zero comment, as in your case none at all on Harris.
I guess she is doomed. Like her country.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Any serious consideration of the careers of black women politicians will reveal a pretty obvious double standard. It's a double standard for women in general, but it's particularly egregious in the cases of women like Kamala Harris or Maxine Waters. There is no detail of Kamala Harris's career and personality that wouldn't be celebrated if she were a man, and especially if she were a white man.
This is true across the political spectrum. Barbara Lee has been a stronger and more consistent advocate of progressive governance than Bernie Sanders could hope to be. But a black woman in this country would never garner anything even close to the kind of national cult-like following that Bernie enjoys with his banal retread of progressivism.
Here's the kind of leader Kamala Harris is. In her first race for elected office, she unseated a two-term DA, who was a third-generation SF politician. Hallinan had the backing of police unions. One of Harris's signature issues was her opposition to the death penalty. One of her first cases as DA was against a gang member who killed a plainclothes police officer with an AK-47. At Officer Espinoza's funeral, newly elected US Senator Dianne Feinstein publicly chided Harris, who was present, for not pursuing the death penalty in the case, to raucous applause from the police officers present. Harris put the killer away for life without parole and her consequent two terms as SF DA are considered some of the most successful in city history.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Thanks, thombergon, for an alternative view on Harris. My problem is that not being in the US I don't know how she is viewed generally, as I don't know where most people get their news from. There are obvious print media stars, though I doubt most Americans read the NYT or the Post, either because they don't want to subscribe online or just don't read newspapers, and other than Fox News, CNN, and the other well know broadcasters, I assume a lot of people get news from local tv and radio stations, which in some States I assume are hostile to Democrats, but I just don't know. I also know nothing about social media such as Facebook and how influential it is.
Also, while the coverage here is often about the disappointment of the Biden administration so far, it seems to me that his aim to restore a bi-partisan Congress is doomed because the Republican Party, with or without Trump, abandoned bi-partisan politics in favour of a sectarian conflict that to me is leading the US into a conflict from which there is no simple resolution. On that basis, I can see Harris, if she has a good year in policy terms, building enough support to win the nomination, but in a country so divided and wracked by 'revisions' to the electoral system that results are questioned, but by Democrats rather than Republicans. We cannot yet know how effective the voter suppression mechanisms are going to be in States like Texas, I think the predictions suggest that in theory Harris or the Democrat nominee in 2024 could win the popular vote but lose in the Electoral College.
Either way, yes, she gets a hard time in the media, but must also up her game if she is serious about 2024.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
A throwaway comment, but there is probably more anti-Harris and critical press on Biden here than in the US. It might not work in the US but the media scene there is confusing as I doubt most Americans get their news from the Times, Post and CNN. But thanks anyway for not responding to the purpose of the thread, which apart from your post has excited zero comment, as in your case none at all on Harris.
I guess she is doomed. Like her country.
Oh, I'm sorry I didn't realize I had to respond to the purpose of the thread. Well then allow me to retort.
First, I think many Americans do get their news from the Times, Post, and CNN. Although when it comes to CNN, that is not always a good thing.
As for Kamala Harris.
Is it possible that the criticisms Harris has been receiving are based in racism and misogyny? Absolutely. I would be naïve to think that female politicians and especially minority ones at that must deal with things that their male counterparts do not have to.
It is possible that she is not difficult to work for and the problem is with the former members of her staff who were not cut out for working for the vice president of the United States of America? Or in the case of Symone Sanders (one of Bernie Sanders presidential campaign people) were not the right people to begin with.
Can she be expected to fix an immigration problem that is decades in the making and several presidential administrations bear responsibility for, no she should not. But when Biden assigned her the task, she could have not acted like it was an inconvenience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omrMRP15q9M
Or just maybe, just maybe, all the reports about Harris are true and she is difficult to work for. Maybe she is the perfect example of what happens when you pick someone for a job solely based on their race and or/gender and don’t take things into consideration like qualifications, compatibility, and leadership skills. Or what happens when a person is not allowed to choose someone they want to, but because of outside forces, they have to pick someone else instead.
As for her possible campaign in 2024, considering how poorly she did in the 2020 Democratic primaries and debates, you can say that was already doomed to begin with.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Thanks for this Blackchubby, the point being that I value your intelligent posts, I hope you understand that, though obviously you and everyone else is free to post whenever they want, or not to.
You offer contrasting views, and useful ones, as for example, I don't know who Symone Sanders is. I wonder if this lacuna in leadership, somethig we have in the UK, means that the Democrats are going to engage in a messy sequence of Primaries and Caucuses when the time comes, whereas it appears that the only person who might challenge Trump, assuming he runs/is allowed to run (for legal reasons) is Ron DeSantis.
With Luxury Liz Truss or Richer-than-you Rishi Sunak poised to replace Boris Johnson -assuming he doesn't survive his latest crisis- and Macron potentially on the skids in France, Heaven help us all!
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blackchubby38
As for Kamala Harris.
Is it possible that the criticisms Harris has been receiving are based in racism and misogyny? Absolutely. I would be naïve to think that female politicians and especially minority ones at that must deal with things that their male counterparts do not have to.
It is possible that she is not difficult to work for and the problem is with the former members of her staff who were not cut out for working for the vice president of the United States of America? Or in the case of Symone Sanders (one of Bernie Sanders presidential campaign people) were not the right people to begin with.
Honestly, this is indistinguishable from criticism of Hillary Clinton. Nothing specific, just vague insinuations based on developments that would be unremarkable if the officeholder were a man.
Symone Sanders wasn't just some 2016 Bernie campaign person. She was a senior advisor in Joe Biden's 2020 campaign. She was one of Biden's main surrogates because she's great on TV. She's not only Harris's Chief Spokesperson, she's also Deputy Assistant to the President himself. She has worked in the White House of the President that she helped elect for a year following the campaign, and now she's leaving her public sector job for a more lucrative opportunity in the mainstream media. This a completely banal Washington career trajectory unless you're trying to spin something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blackchubby38
Maybe she is the perfect example of what happens when you pick someone for a job solely based on their race and or/gender and don’t take things into consideration like qualifications, compatibility, and leadership skills. Or what happens when a person is not allowed to choose someone they want to, but because of outside forces, they have to pick someone else instead.
Listen to yourself here. Kamala Harris was the twice-elected Attorney General of the State of California. She was elected to represent California in the United States Senate. But she lacks the qualifications, compatibility, and leadership skills to be Vice President of the United States? Maybe you could be a little more specific about what you believe Harris lacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blackchubby38
As for her possible campaign in 2024, considering how poorly she did in the 2020 Democratic primaries and debates, you can say that was already doomed to begin with.
Yes, she did so poorly that she was selected to serve as Vice President on a ticket that won by historic margins. Total loser. Nothing going for her.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
I'm sure Black Chubby remembers this...
But Harris had dismal support from the Black community to the extent that she quit her run for POTUS before the Primaries even began.
However, since she's Bi-Racial, it would be interesting to see how/what the ethnic groups on her mother's side felt about Kamala pre-Primaries.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Y'all. Harris currently enjoys a 72% approval rating among Black Americans. It's only slightly lower than her 77% approval among Democrats. Black voters were lukewarm on Harris at the top of a ticket in a must-win election because they (rightly) suspected that America is still too racist and misogynist to elect a black woman to the Presidency.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...rs-2020-075651
Harris is 57 years old and currently holds the highest elected office any woman has held in American history. If you're anti-Kamala, you better steel yourself because she's going to be bothering you for another couple decades or so.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
I don't know much about Kamala Harris, but I agree that woman in politics face double standards. I've never understood the degree of animus in the US towards Hillary Clinton. The most bizarre thing was the people saying they voted for Trump in 2016 because they couldn't stand Hillary's lies. A similar thing happened with Julia Gillard, Australia's first and only female Prime Minister. She was actually very effective in getting legislation through a hung parliament, but the common perception seemed to be that she was calculating and devious.
Many of the reasons people give for not liking these politicians seem like rationalisations. If they behave like a typical male politician they are criticised for being ruthless, calculating and devious. If they behaved in a more stereotypically feminine way many of the same people would no doubt complain that they were not strong and forceful enough to be a good leader.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Two interesting posts above. I recall some of the ridicule Julia Gillard faced in Parliament, but don't know much else about her. As for Harris, the demographic points thombergon makes are similar to the ones I made in the OP. So it begs the question, is she the victim of a biased media -in the UK she doesn't have much support it seems- or does she really have problems of management with her staff and her 'Vision' if she has any?
There is so much to happen in the interim, not least the prospect that Trump will not be able to run for legal reasons, or like Putin he just likes tugging at people's egos. Then there is the prospect that Harris might be President sooner than we think... but let's not dwell on that now....
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
I sometimes get the impression that it's not can Kamala save the Nation, but can anyone save Kamala? She seems to me to be level-headed, calm in a crisis, reasonable but maybe not the charisma that some people seem to need, as if Presidents must make rousing speeches to the masses.
She gave a considered and well-judged speech to the Munich Security Conference a few weeks, ago, and in this clip she demolishes the superficial nonsense of De Santis on Ukraine, a topic of which he knows nothing, indeed, his ignorance on a variety of important issues ought to raise concerns. It seems to me the logic of his position is to withdraw the US from NATO.
Anyway, some people here will have seen it, but I still think she can grow into the role and if Biden drops out or something else happens, it will be her opportunity to prove she can do it.
Kamala Harris Slams Ron DeSantis' Ukraine Statement (yahoo.com)
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
By the little which can thus satisfy the human spirit, one can measure the extent of its loss (Hegel).
Good Luck America! You are going to need it.
Kamala Harris's full speech to the Democratic National Convention (youtube.com)
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
So I take it you didn't like her speech?
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blackchubby38
So I take it you didn't like her speech?
Great speech, but is it enough? Now the shit will fly, indeed, Trump was borderline insane during the speech given the hysterical reaction as it unfolded. A grim portent of the next few months.
I guess the Convention speech is always more about tone and the story rather than policy details, and she has an engaging story that must resonate with a lot of Americans. She never really addressed the issues around immigration and the border; she did make important statements about Abortion which everyone knew she would, but did not make a strong statement about the 2nd Amendment and how to remove Battlefield Artillery from the streets. It was fine to make remarks about taxes and corporations, but that shadow called the National Debt is getting longer as the days get shorter. I appreciate her argument about Palestinian Self-Determination but it is not clear if this means a break with Netanyahu, if not Israel, though I assume she hopes Netanyahu will not be Prime Minister if and when she takes office in January 2025, something most people hope for.
The US, as we see it here, is not just a divided, but a bitterly divided country, and a week long pep talk doesn't change that, not least when Trump is planning an 'awards Gala' for Jan 6 rioters next month, a sad comment on how that kind of violence and contempt for the rule of law and Congress, has become normalized.
Trump will host an ‘awards gala’ for rioters who stormed the Capitol on January 6 | The Independent
It now comes down to undecided voters in swing states, and how Trump and his friends handle the campaign from now on. But is it not possible that as in 2016, the Democrat will get most of the votes, but lose the Electoral College?
And the debate between the two next month will be worth watching, that's for sure.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
And of course I would appreciate your reaction to the Convention, and how you see the campaign(s) going from now to the 5th of November (which is Guy Fawkes night here in the UK, that moment when a band of men tried to blow up the Houses of Parliament -and failed).
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
An interesting take on the Convention's 'message management' with the additional fact that the Biden Administration has delivered for both 'Progressives' in the party and if not the left, then in some cases, eg the environment, albeit via the Inflation Reduction Act, policies they approve of. The point being that what unites the Democrats appears to be stronger than what divides them.
The Hidden Reason Chicago Was Such A Rousing Success For Democrats (yahoo.com)
Yet Harris has been at the top of US politics, but did not present her own record of achievement as a way of arguing she is ready for the top job. But again, if this was all about image management, then she did what she had to, and one assumes she will defend her and Biden's record when the time comes for her to be questioned about it.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
I do find it fascinating that someone who did so incredibly poorly in the primaries is now way out front.......
But then again, the Democrats didn't hold a process for nomination (Like Black Lives Matter wanted).....
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Not a 'heritage American', as Tucker Carlson might put it, and not eligible for vote either, but for different reasons. Imagine, it is 2024 and the argument comes from the first half of the 19th century. No going back? Sometimes it seems some Americans have never gone forward.
Republican group cites notorious Dred Scott ruling as reason Kamala Harris can’t be president | The Independent
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrFanti
I do find it fascinating that someone who did so incredibly poorly in the primaries is now way out front.......
But then again, the Democrats didn't hold a process for nomination (Like Black Lives Matter wanted).....
She did pretty well in the primaries, one of the last people to drop out, and impressed people enough to be selected as VP.
As far as Black Lives Matter wanting an open primary at this late stage of the game… first of all, which chapter of Black Lives Matter? My understanding is that there are several different chapters. Also, as we have been told many times here, black voters are not a monolith. If one limited faction of black voters wants something, they only speak for themselves. It’s just one voice out of many. And an open convention would be a total disaster, they would have to invent that whole scenario out of thin air. Everybody who voted for Biden also voted for Kamala. If something were to happen to Biden, Kamala would automatically become president, as everyone knows. Kamala as candidate is clearly the fairest, most logical choice.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
Today’s conservative movement is a joke. One moment they are strict originalists, the next they are making up new ideas that have nothing to do with the Constitution (example - the “major questions doctrine”). What these clowns do is start with the results that they want to see, and then work backwards from there to justify it. What do conservatives believe any more, besides unlimited access to guns, hating uppity women and queers, and giving tax breaks to millionaires? I hate what Trump has done to America but as a democrat, I love how MAGA has absolutely eviscerated conservatism. Trump has done more to single handedly destroy conservatism than any smelly hippy could ever dream of.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luke Warm
As far as Black Lives Matter wanting an open primary at this late stage of the game… first of all, which chapter of Black Lives Matter? .
The "main group"
Read this--> https://blacklivesmatter.com/black-l...ratic-nominee/
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrFanti
"“Black Lives Matter is independent of any political party...".
So, if they are not members of the Party, but
"Black Lives Matter demands that the Democratic National Committee (DNC) immediately host an informal, virtual snap primary across the country prior to the DNC convention in August. "
-Should they mind their own business instead of interfering in a Party they are not members of -or join the Party and influence it from within?
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Stavros makes a good point, that anyone who isn’t active in party politics shouldn’t expect to dictate the direction of the party. If you don’t participate in the party (or even vote, for that matter) nobody in the party cares about your opinion.
Also, I don’t think BLM would get a candidate that they like more, in an open primary. I think it’s very likely they would get a candidate that they liked even less.
A bunch of people in the media also wanted a last-minute open primary, and it was a bad idea when they pushed it too (I’m not singling out BLM)
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stavros
And of course I would appreciate your reaction to the Convention, and how you see the campaign(s) going from now to the 5th of November (which is Guy Fawkes night here in the UK, that moment when a band of men tried to blow up the Houses of Parliament -and failed).
As an Independent voter, I'm indifferent to political conventions. They have become 4 day jerk-off sessions for the respective parties. The only difference between the two being, that with the Republicans its about "look how bitter and angry we have become". With the Democrats, "its look how cool and progressive we are". I have no idea what their respective platforms were, which used to be a staple of the conventions.
As for how Kamala did, of course she didn't mention anything about immigration and the border. She is part of an administration that had three years to do something about it and pretty much failed in doing so. It was only until the year of the election did the Biden finally take executive action.
And before anybody runs up in here and says something about Trump telling the Republicans in Congress not to vote on the most recent immigration bill and therefore killing it. That's a byproduct of waiting until an election year to do something.
I will say this though. There is no denying the enthusiasm for Kamala Harris that was on display during the week of the convention and in the media. The shift in tone of many of the people who spoke was also noticeable. It was no longer about, "When they aim low, we aim high" and it was about taking the fight to the Trump and the MAGA Republicans. I don't think you would have saw the same thing if President Biden was still the nominee. Which has led me to come up with this conspiracy theory:
That even without his poor debate performance, the Democrats were going to find a way to replace Biden as the nominee, with invoking the 25th amendment as the nuclear option.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Luke Warm
Also, I don’t think BLM would get a candidate that they like more, in an open primary. I think it’s very likely they would get a candidate that they liked even less.
We'll never know one way or the other since the Democrats didn't hold a "due process". I would debate that if BLM really wanted Harris, they would not have the point about having an open process.
I do know that during the primaries, there were quite a few of us within the Black community that did not like Harris and contrary to what Liberals believe, we don't all back someone solely on color of skin.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blackchubby38
As an Independent voter, I'm indifferent to political conventions. They have become 4 day jerk-off sessions for the respective parties. The only difference between the two being, that with the Republicans its about "look how bitter and angry we have become". With the Democrats, "its look how cool and progressive we are". I have no idea what their respective platforms were, which used to be a staple of the conventions.
As for how Kamala did, of course she didn't mention anything about immigration and the border. She is part of an administration that had three years to do something about it and pretty much failed in doing so. It was only until the year of the election did the Biden finally take executive action.
And before anybody runs up in here and says something about Trump telling the Republicans in Congress not to vote on the most recent immigration bill and therefore killing it. That's a byproduct of waiting until an election year to do something.
I will say this though. There is no denying the enthusiasm for Kamala Harris that was on display during the week of the convention and in the media. The shift in tone of many of the people who spoke was also noticeable. It was no longer about, "When they aim low, we aim high" and it was about taking the fight to the Trump and the MAGA Republicans. I don't think you would have saw the same thing if President Biden was still the nominee. Which has led me to come up with this conspiracy theory:
That even without his poor debate performance, the Democrats were going to find a way to replace Biden as the nominee, with invoking the 25th amendment as the nuclear option.
Thank you for your views. I think you are right on some things. With regard to the Border, what I think was missing was a candid discussion of what her mission was and what it did -or rather did not- achieve. The aim was to send her to Central America to address the origin of the problem of migration, yet it is clear that the causes of that Exit are beyond the ability of the Vice-President of the US or even the President(s) of Central America to control. At the core is corruption, violence and States that do not function in a world contaminated by the global trade in narcotics, where the largest single market is in the US itself. Harris could have given a speech about this, but too full of negatives to win her votes -best to avoid it altogether. Using the speech to campaign against recreational drug use in the US would also be futile, even if there is a strong message there -eg, 'every time you snort a line, someone in the South has had their time'.
Conferences in the US have long been ad campaigns that are carefully choreographed to trumpet success, and just as people were worried that Chicago in 2024 could be a re-run of Chicago 1968, so they underestimated the control at the top making sure this did not happen. But yes it does mean there is no serious presentation of policy, as that is no longer the purpose of the Conference just as the system of Primaries means that in most cases the candidate arrives knowing he or she will get the delegates votes. But if across the US, the party activists chose the Presidential candidates, who would they end up with?
Now consider why: in the UK, it used to be the case that the annual conference of the Labour Party was a policy making conference that established the agenda for the Party. The policies came from the members -the Parliamentary Party of MPs, the Trade Unions who helped create and still to this day are the major financial backers of the party, and the individual members who pay an annual fee and send in Resolutions to Conference as voted on by activists in the Constituency parties. And there is the problem and one that I think the Democrats have dealt with -activists are more radical than average voters. Thus, in 1981 the Labour Party Conference voted to abolish the UK's 'independent' nuclear deterrent, ie 'Ban The Bomb' became party policy; and it voted to Leave the European Union, 35 years before Brexit.
Because the Party then became saddled with policies that were trashed in the mostly pro-Thatcher media, when the succession of defeats in elections forced the party to change is messaging, Conference ceased to be a policy-making event, and under Blair it became like the American version, a holiday camp of positive messaging and feel-good messages, though one must say before Iraq there was a lot to feel good about. Just as the power of Murdoch's The Sun media at the time meant Blair had to invite Murdoch into No 10 Downing St to assure him that his plans for Labour had little or nothing to with the Party's Socialist origins, just as Harris has rejected the New Deal framework that led to increases in personal taxation, though these days nobody wants to point out that such taxes were at their highest when Eisenhower was President and the US experience economic growth that these days are the stuff of dreams.
Key takeaway: never let the activists in the party, or the delegates to Conference set the agenda. In fact: keep them out.
So I guess as an Independent you are living in a policy desert in which the media does not address your concerns, whatever your priorities are, and that when they do, it is all done as a confrontation between two sectarian campaigns that never accept that anything on the other side has any merit. You have ended up with a political landscape in which the Conferences tell you nothing, and in which a lot of day to day messaging doesn't tell you either. Referring back to my Hegel quote, who would ever have imagined a world in which one Presidential candidate refers to blow-jobs in campaigning literature as if that sort of language was normal? The media driven need for a constant stream of positive-negative messaging has corrupted the actuality of democracy, which was always supposed to be shaped by citizens debating which policy is the best for all, and then deciding to implement it.
It is a depressing situation, made worse by the fact that one of the candidates had refused to accept he lost one election, already claiming that the fixed elements of the previously 'rigged' election are still in place, even when his own people are busy shredding voter rolls and attempting to put in place partisan election workers who may yet do the fixing on his behalf. All of this inconceivable in years gone by.
I don't know if you feel disenfranchised, but I do understand how in this landscape of sectarian bitterness, the alternatives may be there, but also be ineffective in changing the game. You are stuck in a loop, and the only hope for some is that at least Trump will not be President.
None of which addresses the most difficult problem the US has right now: if social policy is 'returned to the States', it doesn't matter what the Federal Govt or Congress wants, the power of control has shifted to the States and I don't see how that process can be reversed unless the State itself changes, which would mean solid Republican States becoming Democrat, though I suppose it is not absolutely impossible.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Kamala's policies will make us more equal and poorer off as a result. Poor people will always exist so long as television, Doritos, cheap beer and sofas exist.
Trying to help people that won't help themselves by hurting others financially is unfair.
She's wrong on the economy, energy, the border and drugs.
In support she incarcerated over 1500 Black men for a little weed, yet hard, dangerous drugs enter our nation's borders everyday. She's a joke of a border czar.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BostonBad
Kamala's policies will make us more equal and poorer off as a result. Poor people will always exist so long as television, Doritos, cheap beer and sofas exist.
Trying to help people that won't help themselves by hurting others financially is unfair.
She's wrong on the economy, energy, the border and drugs.
In support she incarcerated over 1500 Black men for a little weed, yet hard, dangerous drugs enter our nation's borders everyday. She's a joke of a border czar.
a) Harris has never been a 'border Czar', the phrase is meaningless anyway, as if any one person had total control of the borders of the US. Her task was to visit countries in Central America to tackle the exit of their citizens at source. If she failed at this, I suggest you take a closer look at the political mess in El Salvador and Honduras, to name just two.
b) Harris has given specific details on some of the economic policies she is promoting, with regard to child care, and the financial opportunities she thinks the Federal Govt can give to small and medium sized enterprises, where Trump has merely promised the same old tax cuts for the super-rich (ie, people like himself), and when asked about child care, produced an answer that was literally incomprehensible, even to himself, as it appears he didn't understand the question.
c) is the economic record of the US under President Biden so bad? Inflation is down, hiring is up. Does the President or the Federal Govt control the price of bacon or the rent people pay? Again, Trump has promised nothing, merely attacked the Biden Administration, because he doesn't have any economic policies other than those tax cuts. Thereagain, maybe he has 'concepts of a plan' for the economy, who knows?
d) I have linked Harris's record as Attorney General in California on the other thread. Perhaps she was administering the laws she inherited from the California legislature, and was not free to pass sentences that were not permitted by the law?
e) dangerous drugs do arrive in the US every day, most of them brought in by Americans, because Americans love them. As for weed, Trump wants it legalized in Florida. Maybe all those lazy sods chewing doritos on their sofas while watching The Young and the Restless, will get weed on welfare....?
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BostonBad
In support she incarcerated over 1500 Black men for a little weed, yet hard, dangerous drugs enter our nation's borders everyday. She's a joke of a border czar.
Part of the reason why she faired miserably in the primaries. Very few of Black America supported her back then.
Which gives the Black Lives Matter stance on her and how the Democrats "nominated" her much more substance.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Has nobody over there heard of 'tactical voting'? People who are not that keen on Kamala might vote for her to keep Trump out -is there any other way to achieve this, given there are no independent candidates worth a second look? Or maybe there is so much schadenfreude about the state of the nation that some people want Trump to win just to watch the country fall apart?
Trump boasts about the Supreme Court justices he nominated who in their hearings said they would retain Roe v Wade and then repealed it, yet it is probably the most unpopular policy associated with him and the Court.
Harris is doing well because of her position on Abortion, which is also a position on women's health, and the political issue of who gets to decide how to treat a woman whose pregnancy is in crisis.
To vote against that would to some people be like voting against women, and freedom.
Is Harris really to blame for the decisions made by the AG's office in California that locks up Black men -isn't this a nationwide problem? As I put it in the previous post, was Harris in a position to change the sentencing of a court?
How about the case in South Carolina where a man believed to be innocent has now been executed? How unusual is that?
South Carolina executes first man in 13 years despite new evidence of innocence | South Carolina | The Guardian
And what about Robinson, 'Martin Luther King on steroids' -do Black people vote for him because he is black, or because they share his odious views of women and transgendered people?
Kamala Harris ties Mark Robinson around Trump's neck in brutal new North Carolina ad (msn.com)
If the election is this close, a tactical vote might be the hard choice some Americans have to make. On this side of the Atlantic, it looks like a no-brainer.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Someone remind me how many votes she got in the primaries. This is the US, our parties now pick the candidate through a primary system. I don't care which party you support, but this is just part of the breakdown of the American system. And when America falls, the world will rip apart at the seams.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tslvr
Someone remind me how many votes she got in the primaries. This is the US, our parties now pick the candidate through a primary system. I don't care which party you support, but this is just part of the breakdown of the American system. And when America falls, the world will rip apart at the seams.
I don't understand your point. Here in the UK it is not possible to be Prime Minister without being either an MP, and to be an MP that person must be selected by the members of a political party, which is not so different from the registered voters in the US choosing their candidate in a Primary, or a Caucus. If the Primary system is removed, how will either the Democrats or Republicans choose their candidate for President? I don't know how candidates are chosen for the House, Senate and other local offices.
If the American system was different, it might be that someone like Trump, who has never been a member of any party would not have been able to walk into the Republican Party and take it over -he registered to run as an Independent in 2000 but realized he had no chance without an organization with automatic reach across the whole of the US, hence his choice of the GOP.
How you choose your Presidents might be something to debate, I don't know enough about the mechanics, but allow me to suggest it is not Primary or Caucus votes that is likely to break down the American system, but the policies of a party that most Americans do not want -eg, Abortion, Gun Control, Dictatorship- which Trump and Republicans in some States are going to, or already have imposed on citizens.
How can you hold a country together when one party imposes policies on the people that limit their freedom, threatening designated 'enemies' of the party with prison or bankruptcy or even execution not because they are enemies of the USA but because they disagree with Trump-? It may all be bluster and rhetoric if and when he becomes President and realizes he doesn't have the 'immense power' he once saw in the movies, but I think he will try to see how far his immunity goes -and that is more likely to break down the integrity of the US system, plus the fear that if/when he loses there will be another round of court case after court case to prove he won when he didn't, and so forth.
Then the more long term issue not related to elections -if the Supreme Court 'returns' key policy decisions to the States, what is the purpose of the Supreme Court or even Congress? By establishing States Rights as a form of power, one is surely seeing the road to State Autonomy, the USA being a Union of 50 different countries each with their own policies on tax, abortion, education, the climate -not so different from what exists today, but without the guarantee that an American citizen has equal rights across the whole country, because Republicans do not believe in equality of any kind, being a party of privilege.
So I am not sure the Primaries are the fault, and if Harris did not do well in those elections, so what? She is the candidate now- and when compared to a mostly incoherent, ignorant fool who is obsessed with his own greatness I am amazed this is even a contest.
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tslvr
Someone remind me how many votes she got in the primaries. This is the US, our parties now pick the candidate through a primary system. I don't care which party you support, but this is just part of the breakdown of the American system. And when America falls, the world will rip apart at the seams.
What an ignorant argument. Selection of candidates has always been a matter for the parties, as in other democracies. The primary system is not in the constitution. It only started in 1972, so for the first 189 years of the USA's history candidates were not selected by primaries. Are you saying that all those Presidents were illegitimate?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ential_primary
If Biden resigned or died Kamala Harris would become President as she's the VP. That is in the Constitution. People voted for Biden knowing this. There have been several times in US history when the VP has become President in this way. Obviously that didn't lead to the breakdown of the US, let alone the world.
Also, you are missing the obvious point that the only way Kamala Harris can become President for the next 4 years is if she's voted in in the election. How would that be undemocratic?
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tslvr
Someone remind me how many votes she got in the primaries. This is the US, our parties now pick the candidate through a primary system. I don't care which party you support, but this is just part of the breakdown of the American system. And when America falls, the world will rip apart at the seams.
PS, which one of these do you think might be the greater threat to democracy:
(a) a candidate who was chosen without a primary because the previous candidate dropped out at a late stage; or
(b) a candidate who has refused to accept the outcome of the vote in the last election and tried to overturn it through unconstitutional means?
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tslvr
Someone remind me how many votes she got in the primaries. This is the US, our parties now pick the candidate through a primary system. I don't care which party you support, but this is just part of the breakdown of the American system. And when America falls, the world will rip apart at the seams.
It was abysmal - she was one of earliest people to withdraw.
--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Result...tial_primaries
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Re: Komm, Kamala, Komm and Save the Nation!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MrFanti
Indeed, but now tell me this: how many Vice-Presidents have taken one step further to become the Presidential candidate, and then be elected as President?
FDR-Truman
Eisenhower-Nixon
Kennedy-LBJ
Reagan-Bush (I)
Clinton-Gore -almost
Obama-Biden
Biden-Harris -?
That means the few examples that don't match are Ford, Carter and Bush (II), or 14 years out of the last 80.
