Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
I thought first degree murder required intent, but second degree and manslaughter ( both still homicides) do not? Zimmerman was told by the police that his "assistance";i.e. "foot-pursuit" was not required. He was no doubt told this in order to avoid a violent confrontation leading to tragedy. That Trayvon even touched Zimmerman is at this point mere speculation entertained by those desperate to protect Zimmerman and the idiotic stand-your-ground law that allows people to just walk away from homicides without any due process.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
I thought first degree murder required intent, but second degree and manslaughter ( both still homicides) do not? Zimmerman was told by the police that his "assistance";i.e. "foot-pursuit" was not required. He was no doubt told this in order to avoid a violent confrontation leading to tragedy. That Trayvon even touched Zimmerman is at this point mere speculation entertained by those desperate to protect Zimmerman and the idiotic stand-your-ground law that allows people to just walk away from homicides without any due process.
"Stand your ground" sounds like those caricatures of the wild west - gun law, to all intents and purposes.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
That's exactly what they're meant to invoke. Little boys over 20 years old just eat that western shit up. SYG laws are in fact No-Due-Process-Required laws. You can kill someone, shrug your shoulders, claim you're a coward...oops!...I mean that you feared for your life and defended yourself with a deadly toy. The police will shrug and say keep up the good work...no due process required.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
That's exactly what they're meant to invoke. Little boys over 20 years old just eat that western shit up. SYG laws are in fact No-Due-Process-Required laws. You can kill someone, shrug your shoulders, claim you're a coward...oops!...I mean that you feared for your life and defended yourself with a deadly toy. The police will shrug and say keep up the good work...no due process required.
That's why I said it was a caricature. After all, back in the 1880s after the OK Corral, Earp, his brothers and Doc Holliday at least ended up in court.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
The dispatcher can only suggest what you should do for your own safety. If you choose to run off into a potentially dangerous situation before the cops arrive, that's your legal problem.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
And when you do you can no longer claim you were assisting the police.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
That's conjecture on your part. They told him, "We don't want you doing that". Not, "You can't do that." They told him that for his safety and for the safety of the suspect. But ... citizens are free to confront suspicous people and aid the police if they choose to. It's stupid and dangerous to do it, and that's why Zimmerman is in the situation he's in. I won't do it, because it could be something bad or nothing at all. It's not worth the risk. The police are better experienced to ascertain a situation like that. He should have just stayed back and continued to be additional eyes for them. Tactical error? Yes. Illegal? No. Absolutely not. Stupid? Hell yeah!
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
I understand where you're coming from Trish, but you don't have experience in Neighborhood Watch. I do. First rule, not law, is don't confront suspicious people. It's stupid and dangerous to do that. If Treyvon had killed Zimmerman, Treyvon would have walked Scott-Free by the Stand Your Ground Statute. The very statute you people are denouncing. There is a crime epidemic in America, and private citizens are trying to catch up and protect their neighborhoods. Many of them don't know what they're doing because the criminals are one step ahead of them with years of experience on getting away. That’s why he said, “They always get away”. Many of the criminals do. They are well versed in what they’re doing, and they’re first rule is run run run.
I’ll give an example Trish. Last night my wife and I were walking our neighborhood at 3:00 in the morning. A beautiful mustang came down the street, and was cut off by an old pickup truck with the lights off and forced to pull over. I immediately told my wife, “Uh oh. Let’s turn around. There’s an altercation going on there and we need to get back.”
Now, what if I presumed there was a carjacking or a robbery going on and went running in there? Which it looked like the case. We stood 50 yards back and watched a female get yanked out of the Mustang, and the Mustang sped angrily sped off. When the truck passed us you could hear the driver yelling at her “Fucking slut!”.
So, it was nothing. Some guy’s girlfriend or wife was out with another man in his nice Mustang. Now if I went running in there, drew my gun, and ordered all of them to remain there until the cops show up, that was my right, because it looked like a robbery or carjacking in progress. I just sat back and monitored what was happening and didn’t go running in there and have a hoard of people pissed at me to stay out of their business.
See what I mean? Stay cool. Stay calm, and stay back. It’s not illegal to intervene in suspicious activity in your community. It’s very very stupid to do it.
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Hold up time out, lets not play semantics here. The dispatcher goes by protocol, and that was the right one to make. Now being you wanna play that game, lets look at the neighborhood watch rules.
1. Don't engage a person call the police and they will handle the situation.
2. Don't carry weapons as a neighborhood watch person.
So I would like for you to try and play around with those words. Zimmerman needs to go to jail, it's a fact he killed an unarmed man, fact Trayvon didn't have a weapon of no kind unless you figure out some way to say Skittles and a loaded ice tea is a weapon. Go ahead get around that one. Zimmerman is guilty. This is one of those things that you don't need a trail for.
IN training of a non-armed security officer you are told watch and observe, call the police immediately, keep suspects in site if you can, and wait for the police and then give them every possible note from your observance. You don't engage, upon an arm security it's different because they are armed and have more professional skills on handling a problem with an armed suspect.
Plus look at how Zimmerman approached Trayvon "WHAT ARE YOU DOING AROUND HERE" what the fuck is that? That sounds like a gang member or something, and Trayvon probably thought that. Zimmerman was no way are professional. He should of handled it another way while approaching. First off if I feel dude is tall as Trayvon was I would of called the police and not approach him because you don't know what he has as far as a weapon. Zimmerman wanted confrontation so he could get to use his gun, plain and simple that's why he did that and he wanted to be known as a hero, because he wanted to be a cop but couldn't!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
InHouston
That's conjecture on your part. They told him, "We don't want you doing that". Not, "You can't do that." They told him that for his safety and for the safety of the suspect. But ... citizens are free to confront suspicous people and aid the police if they choose to. It's stupid and dangerous to do it, and that's why Zimmerman is in the situation he's in. I won't do it, because it could be something bad or nothing at all. It's not worth the risk. The police are better experienced to ascertain a situation like that. He should have just stayed back and continued to be additional eyes for them. Tactical error? Yes. Illegal? No. Absolutely not. Stupid? Hell yeah!
Re: 17yr old black kid shot and killed for walking in white suburbia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jamesedwards
Hold up time out, lets not play semantics here. The dispatcher goes by protocol, and that was the right one to make. Now being you wanna play that game, lets look at the neighborhood watch rules.
1. Don't engage a person call the police and they will handle the situation.
2. Don't carry weapons as a neighborhood watch person.
So I would like for you to try and play around with those words. Zimmerman needs to go to jail, it's a fact he killed an unarmed man, fact Trayvon didn't have a weapon of no kind unless you figure out some way to say Skittles and a loaded ice tea is a weapon. Go ahead get around that one. Zimmerman is guilty. This is one of those things that you don't need a trail for.
IN training of a non-armed security officer you are told watch and observe, call the police immediately, keep suspects in site if you can, and wait for the police and then give them every possible note from your observance. You don't engage, upon an arm security it's different because they are armed and have more professional skills on handling a problem with an armed suspect.
Plus look at how Zimmerman approached Trayvon "WHAT ARE YOU DOING AROUND HERE" what the fuck is that? That sounds like a gang member or something, and Trayvon probably thought that. Zimmerman was no way are professional. He should of handled it another way while approaching. First off if I feel dude is tall as Trayvon was I would of called the police and not approach him because you don't know what he has as far as a weapon. Zimmerman wanted confrontation so he could get to use his gun, plain and simple that's why he did that and he wanted to be known as a hero, because he wanted to be a cop but couldn't!!!
No no no. Zimmerman did not hunt him down to use his gun. You’re just saying that because Treyvon was black. The courts don’t buy into that kind of simplistic bias. What happened that night is a bit more complex than that.
1] You can engage suspicious activity in your neighborhood. It’s not illegal but not encouraged by the police because it’s dangerous. It’s not smart, because you don’t know who you’re dealing with. A guy with Skittles, or someone who just committed a home invasion. You have to assume the worst and play it smart and remain in a safe position and remain back for your own good. If you choose to run into some bullshit … well Zimmerman ran head first into it. The police are in uniform and are recognized as authority in the community. If you choose to run point for the police, you could be construed by the person being pursued that you’re an assailant and get attacked, which is what happened to Zimmerman. Then Zimmerman has to defend his life. Zimmerman was trying to help the police when Treyvon took off running, and that is a number one “no no” during police training. Don’t engage without backup. You don’t want to end up isolated alone.
2] When I volunteered my time for neighborhood watch, I met with nine officers at my local store. They told me, “Keep your gun on you at all times. Carry extra ammunition, and be careful. Don’t confront suspicious people, and let us handle that.” They didn’t say I can’t, because you can. It was a warning for my own safety and it’s stupid to not heed their advice. Your weapons during neighborhood watch are to protect you while you’re out alone at night, and could be targeted for a robbery.
I don’t know what state you in, but in Texas and Florida citizens have more rights than the police to use deadly force if need be.
Zimmerman will be acquitted, and will have to spend much of his life in hiding for trying to help the police. Treyvon’s mother should have taught her son not to meander around people’s houses looking suspicious in an area already enduring a crime problem.
