Baby killers---they will rot in hell.
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Baby killers---they will rot in hell.
Photo Gallery of Gaza's Martyred Children
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/200...yred-children/
I did not see Angel getting personal with her, so I don't think it is appropriate to put a personal attack on her. As for the gas chamber comment, it is not particularly vulgar as it does not say that this was a positive event but rather that the policy which Israel has chosen to execute is comparable to those very same events. As I have highlighted in my previous post this is in my opinion a valid comparison as this is nothing but an arbitrary punitive measure against a people as a whole. The Holocaust was a horrific event in human history but this does not provide a moral carte blanche for Israel to do anything and everything it wishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
Now if you want to get biblical, you are only providing half the story and that out of context. The Beni Qoreiga tribe had allied with the Meccans and made war on Muhammed and his group in their infancy. They lost and this was the normal outcome of warfare circa 600 AD. To talk about this event as a factual driver for today's events would be similar to me trying to justify wholesale discrimination and persecution against Jews because they killed Jesus 2000 years ago, rubbish.
Well if you genuinely believe that kittyKaiti's comment was vulgar but it's just fine and dandy to try to crack a joke about Jews learning how to gas people in the camps, and you seriously are of the opinion that people in Gaza are as we speak being ferried away to secret camps where they will all have their fillings removed, their hair shaved off, and then murdered on an industrial scale in order to wipe every inhabitant of Gaza from the face of the earth, then there's not much anyone can say to you on that score. Except: wait a while. I can absolutely 100% guarantee you that in a couple of weeks or so, you will be able to look back and say, whoops, that didn't happen after all. Look, Gaza's still there and there are still people living there. Maybe Israel wasn't trying to exterminate every last one of them after all .. maybe I was wrong.
Again though - if you read the original posts made by kittyKaiti, you'll see vulgar personal attacks aplenty in response to them - but no attempts to discuss the assertions she actually made, namely that Muhammad was a paedophile (as she put it) and that during his military career he had committed acts which today we would consider acts of terrorism.
To this one can add that Muhammad is understood by Muslims to be "the ideal man" - the one person who devout Muslims can look to for guidance on how to conduct themselves as they make their way through life.
Isn't that correct? Do you want to claim that this is not the case?
So the context in which you ought to take my quoting the hadith regarding Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, and the slaughter of that particular Jewish tribe, is right in front of you. People were so mad, after all she'd criticised Islam which is not on, they were jumping up and down and saying she was ignorant, needed to read a book, get an education, stuff like that. When in my opinion the reason she said what she did was probably that she had read more, and was better educated on this topic, than the people who were engaging in those personal attacks. I thought I'd try to show why someone could hold kittyKaiti's views. If only instead of guessing (again) you had bothered to do as I suggested last time, and read kittyKaiti's original posts, and seen the reaction to them.
And saying oh don't worry about Muhammad beheading a tribe of Jews and enslaving their woman, it was normal for the time is a pretty poor argument, don't you think? If you want to adopt some form of moral relativism here, then lay out your argument properly, and when you do, remember to factor in your use now of whatever standards you believe you are using to judge the Israeli people, who are living in a different situation altogether, and who are dealing with a completely different set of problems, compared to anything you've experienced. Then explain why you think your criticism of Israel is valid, but it's not acceptable for kittyKaiti to criticise someone who lived in the 7th Century for shagging a nine year old girl, and murdering a tribe of Jews who had already surrendered. Yes, I noticed that you neglected to mention that little detail, in your attempt to tell the whole story and put their eventual murder in the proper context.
Edit: here's a dilemma for you: Do tell everyone your opinion of the atrocities carried out by the Japanese in WWII - the beheading of prisoners, their seeing non-Japanese people as beneath contempt, even as less than fully human, the use of "comfort women" - all of which have parallels in Islam - explain that you think that hey, it was just "normal" - just how the Japanese behaved at that point in history, and there's no reason for anyone to think badly of such behaviour today. Make that argument, if you can.
Or choose the second horn: If you in fact condemn the behaviour of the Japanese, and are glad that the Americans managed to defeat them in WWII then please explain how it is that when the Japanese beheaded other Asian people and Allied POWs, carried out medical experiments on Allied POWs, and forced women to go on death marches, you act as any morally sane person would and condemn such acts - yet seek to give Islam a pass when it comes to beheading surrendered prisoners and having sex with children. I'd be very interested in reading that argument.
This is a porno board at the end of the day, and you might be feeling a little horny while you're here.
Choose one.
Second edit: And again: you want to "acknowledge the history of this conflict" and try to criticise me for "providing only half the story and that was out of context" and yet you have yet to respond to what I said in my earlier post:
So let me get this straight: you want to talk about the history behind this current situation, and you also want to say that up until 1948, Muslims (and arabs) were peaceloving folk, who didn't bother anybody?
Funnily enough I'm currently reading Max Hastings' book "Nemesis" on the battle for Japan during WWII. The similarities between the Japanese and Islamists right throughout history are striking. (Death cults, suicidal warriors, beheading their enemies, indoctrination of children, thinking that the "materialist" West wouldn't stand up to them, dishing out absolutely appalling treatment of people who were not members of their little "group" - try reading Pierre Boulle then Giles Milton, one after the other - on and on it goes.)
We (mainly the Americans) kicked the living shit out of the Japanese, because that's what it took to end that conflict on top. Same with the many battles with Islamic forces throughout history, and there have been plenty of those by the way. The American forces used flamethrowers in the Pacific theatre, the Knights of St. John built great fiery hoops and threw them on top of advancing Janissaries. To give just one example. Using that kind of weapon is what it took to prevail against a fanatical, murderous, absolutely ruthless enemy. And I don't believe that things have changed that much in 60-odd years. If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. Think of Malta in 1565 - a small island which stood up, alone, to the forces of Islam, which sought to destroy it, and to impose their ideology throughout Europe. We're all glad they did, too. Should we not be thinking of Israel in a similar way?
Perhaps you believe the world would be a better place now if Islam had extended its rule into Europe? I don't. Should we not frame the current situation by looking back through history and considering ... well let's see .. The Battle of Tours (732), The Siege of Malta (1565), The Battle of Lepanto (1571), Vienna (1683) ... and right now, here at the beginning of the 21st Century ... Israel? (See links in previous post.)
Couldn't one turn around your (earlier) comment, and say that there are a lot of people (and let's be honest here, especially in the Muslim world) who resent Israel because they do not go gentle into that good night? That appears to be an unpleasant reality too.
But the Israelis are going nowhere.
Gazans seek new places to bury the dead
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/...nians_the_dead
Dirty Bastards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k
The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9-11
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHART...eisraelis.html
Palestinian girl: Hamas responsible for war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLIdxF-GHWw
Children of Hamas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8
Palestinian child becomes Jihad fighter in Hamas clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FvXe...eature=related
sweet christ tepres the picture in your signature is terrible
It was obviously said tongue in cheek as they say. And again, 90% of the posts in here is outright racism towards Arabs/Muslims, yet the silence is deafening. People shouldn't get angry just becuase the view is different than their own.
I don't think this is really the appropriate place to discuss religion, so I wont get involved in that side of it. And, I don't even have an issue if people feel I am wrong or should die some horrible death for my beliefs. At least they come out and say it. Niccolo, you guise your hate in book quotes, which never seem to end for some reason. Have you any opinions based on personal experience with Muslims, Gazans, or Jews in Israel? I think those opinions are far more valuable, even if I were to disagree. Actually I find your comments far worse than all others on here, becuase you dance around what you want to say by directing people to others writings. Just becuase its in a book, it doesn't make it right. It just makes it another mans opinion.
I dont know why people get so angry over this. The people who are angry over this are the same who cant come to any peace terms becuase of the irrational views of the other side. Hamas wants to exterminate the Jews, the Jews want the same. Now that is the view of some of the people at the top I feel, not that of the average Palestinian hiding in their homes, or the Jews in Southern Israel worried to get hit by a rocket. The way some of you talk is the same as these leaders, well look at what you did 300 years ago, and look what they did in 1948, etc. Its totally irrelevant now, the war is now, and peace can be now. Sadly the solution is so simple. But your anger blinds you to the facts. So go on calling Muslims this, or Im an Idiot, or anything else. Its a silly discussion your having, not based on any events happening today, and sadly its seems the majority of the views don't want to find any peaceful solution, but rather to "just kill em all", and be done with it.
Posting videos of what Hamas does, or views of some people is pointless. Its the same as if someone where to invade America, so the videos of the Ku Klux Klan, and Christian Extremists come out, and the world will say, "ohh well see, look they deserve it, look what they do". The situation is not Black & White, its not Good Vs Evil, like in the movies. The propaganda you gobble up has you believe that. But its so far from the truth. Its a complicated situation, some people hate, some people just want to live a normal life. Your country had you in total fear of the Communists in the 50's, and 60's. Discussions like this would have been the same. Arabs are just the new fear of our times. Fear is power, and all governments use it. So you can choose to accept the fear, and believe everything you read and see. Or you can choose to experience life, and come to your own conclusions.
If I were Israel I would do the total opposite of what Ive done for 50 or 60 years. Build hospitals, schools, fix the cities, give them land. I wonder what would happen if someone actually showed kindness to another in the world? Would perhaps the young generation of Palestinians grow up admiring Israel? Sure there would be those who resist, and don't want this. But the majority of people see the benefits and they will remove Hamas themselves. The only way to remove terrorism is to give the people around the terrorists the power to do so. The current approach only breeds more hate.
But really what do I know, Im just a poor illiterate terrorist.
Actually..if you remove her first sentence from the quote - it is a poignant comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by zaron
...o.k. ..might have to remove the last one too..lol
Very good statement!Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel17TS
islam is a religion of peace =just dont mention the armenians,dont mention what is done to the christians in muslim countrys,dont mention the bombings and murders in the philippines,dont mention bali and just make excuses for the twin towers .what a pack of bastards.oh i forgot the murders in india but we should ignor them becawse islam is a religion of peace
These videos are exactly "the point". Because Nothing will ever change so long as Hamas is in charge. They teach and spread this hatred from from an early age. They cleverly manipulate children in a similar way that pedophiles do. As someone already noted, if Hamas were to put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel were to put down their weapons, there would be a slaughter.
Another example of early indoctrination into hate.
11-year-old Palestinians: Martyrdom better than this world
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPb1bF-s4M&NR=1
Once again: Islam is an ideology, not a race. It's that simple.Quote:
It was obviously said tongue in cheek as they say. And again, 90% of the posts in here is outright racism towards Arabs/Muslims, yet the silence is deafening. People shouldn't get angry just becuase the view is different than their own.
I don't think this is really the appropriate place to discuss religion, so I wont get involved in that side of it. And, I don't even have an issue if people feel I am wrong or should die some horrible death for my beliefs. At least they come out and say it. Niccolo, you guise your hate in book quotes, which never seem to end for some reason. Have you any opinions based on personal experience with Muslims, Gazans, or Jews in Israel? I think those opinions are far more valuable, even if I were to disagree. Actually I find your comments far worse than all others on here, becuase you dance around what you want to say by directing people to others writings. Just becuase its in a book, it doesn't make it right. It just makes it another mans opinion. Angel17TS
And according to you, nonexistent comments which I haven't actually made anywhere are - in your opinion - the worst comments on this thread. This coming from someone who thinks that their own comment about Jews learning how to gas people in the camps is funny.
Sweet! :lol:
as I write these lines , I don't know if I'll have to go again to the shelter because of another Hamas misile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel17TS
I do it for the past 8 years...................non stop.
don't I deserve normal life just like you have?
I can't blame you for being naive , but that's what you are.
the Hamas leaders are in Damascus these days , staying in high class hotels , driving on limosines , with the same money that was actualy sent to help the common palestinians who want only to survive but are kept as hostages by extreme muslims.
if YOU lived under misiles attacks wouldn't you want your goverment to DO something about it instead of just TALKING?
We can meander around the points as much as you like but the reality is that IDF is executing a military campaign which will is killing mostly innocent people. To hide this fact they have instituted a media blockade to hide the true severity of the casualties inflicted on civilians. You may also demonize the Palestinian however much you want but they are the ones who have had their homeland stolen through the use of violence. They are right to be angry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
A couple of tidbits for you:
- The Palestinians have already been relocated to camps and ghettos walled in by Israel, what more relocation can you ask for. For someone who seems to enjoy history as much as you do, I am surprised you don't see any similarities between the Gaza operation and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. You don't need to kill everyone to destroy a people nor do you have to do it over the course of a year; you could do it slowly over the course of say 50 or 100 years.
- Mohammed's role in Islam I can't speak to with certainty; I think religion being a personal matter is a personal interpretation for individual muslims.
- Where do you get your facts, from Fox News?
The hadith that you refer to says nothing of having sex with Aisha at the age of 9, that is a mistranslation. The translation says he took her into his home at the age of 9. I highly doubt any religion anywhere would comment on the sexual behavior of a prominent figure within said religion. As for comparing something that happened 60 years ago and 1400 years ago, no they are not comparable, there most definitely is a difference in context.
- Conflict is a part of human nature so I wouldn't assert anyone was peace loving but the fact remains that there was no major conflict in the area between arabs / muslims and jews before the movement to displace Palestinians.
- You reference to Knights of St. John as a bulwark against religious fanaticism is rather funny as their forerunners were religious fanatics who traveled thousands of miles from their home to conquer Jerusalem and indiscriminately slaughter the jewish and muslim inhabitants of the city. Or maybe you feel a certain kinship towards them. Either way they were dispelled from Jerusalem some 90 years later, then fled to Rhodes where they were again dispersed, finally landing in Malta where they achieved some modicum of sustainable success.
- Finally, muslims were already in Europe via Spain and South Eastern Europe, so I doubt Malta or any of the other conflicts you mentioned had any real relevance historically outside of the sentimental. The sustained ascent and decline of empires and cultures generally has substantially higher correlation with demographic and economic trends as opposed to military strength which is ephemeral and generally driven by the aforementioned trends.
You are right about the fact that the same can be said about the Israelis too but that doesn't change the Palestinians reality either. For all the back and forth we are having on this board, I probably have more close Jewish friends than the vast majority of the people on here. I don't generally wish ill on anyone but when I see injustice to the extreme degree I see when I look at the Palestinian’s plight it makes my blood boil. To me it is the equivalent of being raped and then being vilified for being raped.
Anyway, thanks for the time sink.
Hey you better look out, Niccolo might report you to some kind of antisemitic foundation, just for exercising your 1rst amendment... And then they will come after you and illegally prosecute you with a roll of duct tape...
Hey you better look out, Niccolo might report you to some kind of antisemitic foundation, just for exercising your 1rst amendment... And then they will come after you and illegally prosecute you with a roll of duct tape...
El Nino,
Come on man, let's try to move forward here. I did try to lighten the mood a little after you posted about that, and made your own position clear. And we seem to be in agreement about the superiority of Buddhism, in some imporant ways, compared to some other religions. We seem to have a fair bit of common ground there then. I mean, two people agreeing about religion - that's not something you see every day now, is it? Know what I mean?
Maybe the two of us can't achieve a cease fire between the Israelis and the Palestinians, but surely we can make one happen between two individual people, namely you and me? That seems do-able. What do you think?
What's the saying again, a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step?
Niccolo
Hi Yosi,Quote:
Originally Posted by yosi
Thats a shame if that is your plight. You are in Southern Israel? It seems you have knowledge of the situation, and I would look forward to a conversation about recent events and what led up to it. Majority on here have no idea really of the regions history as it not taught in schools, and gets only a few minutes in the news. So they revert to comment on the religion as a whole. But I think you would agree, the situation has much to do with land, and religion has been used perhaps as an excuse for their actions. I know that many Israelis feel there is no talking, I disagree. And of course when a war has started, yes its difficult to start talking. I think what I meant more of a long term, and could only be used during times of the cease fire.
Im happy you said extreme muslims. That indicates to me, you recognize they are taking it to the extreme and it is not part of any teachings.
Anyway, a few things I would like to see what you think.
Do you think that, while yes there is Hamas being targeted, the families of those who get innocently killed, would naturally not blame Hamas, but instead would turn their anger towards Israel? Perhaps joining the fight now, and could they really be called a terrorist or would these be reacting in self defense? It seems like both sides just react to each other, but really make no efforts to solve the problem. Each side also seems to try to provoke one another in to the next battle.
Also, what about in general, I mean starting back in 1948. You know of course, Gaza is not the home of these people, and many places they fire rockets into used to be the lands they lived on. Can i ask how this is handled in schools or generally culturally. Is it viewed religiously as Israelis rights, as in the "Promise Land" or is it viewed as the past mistakes or triumphs of other governments? Or something else, I dont want to put words in your mouth.
Stay safe.
The dance continues. No books quotes, Im shocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
Have you reported the UN Officials who have made the same comparison?
the true tragedy in the middle east are the palestinians , sad but true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel17TS
you probably know the middle east history better than others here
and you probably know about "The black september" in the 70's , the palestinians were butchered in Jordan , a violence of muslims against muslims , nobody saw or heard anything , far away from the press......
up to these days , this kind of violence is never showed.
the common palestinians went out to celebrate the 11/9 because they were FORCED to do it , do you think that they realy cared about it with so many mouths to feed in this harsh reality?
the Hamas forces , when they feel hungry , go and rob a store or a restaurant , I know it happens , I've seen it with my own eyes , not on television.
the palestinian population are terified by the Hamas, some of them are even made to believe that if they will commit suicide killing as many innocent non-muslims , no matter if it is as a human bomb or flying airplanes to crash on some tall building , promising them afterwards 72 female virgins that will be his in heaven...........
do you think that the Hamas leaders will go and commit a suicide?
is the Islam realy says so? I doubt it............
the silence of the arab world about it is screaming in my ears.....realy.
it is the Hamas interest to keep the palestinians as they are , poor , ignorant , and easy to dominate , just like Saddam Hussein did in Iraq.
ever wondered why there are no democracies in the arab world? ok , maybe almost none.
in democratic countries , poeple like the Hamas , will find themselves in jail , where they belong.
If you have difficulty understanding the simple statement: "Islam is an ideology, not a race" then that's your problem, not mine. If you genuinely think that criticism of one has anything at all to do with the other, then go ahead and argue for that. Start by defining your terms. Good luck!Quote:
Niccolo wrote:
Quote:
It was obviously said tongue in cheek as they say. And again, 90% of the posts in here is outright racism towards Arabs/Muslims, yet the silence is deafening. People shouldn't get angry just becuase the view is different than their own.
I don't think this is really the appropriate place to discuss religion, so I wont get involved in that side of it. And, I don't even have an issue if people feel I am wrong or should die some horrible death for my beliefs. At least they come out and say it. Niccolo, you guise your hate in book quotes, which never seem to end for some reason. Have you any opinions based on personal experience with Muslims, Gazans, or Jews in Israel? I think those opinions are far more valuable, even if I were to disagree. Actually I find your comments far worse than all others on here, becuase you dance around what you want to say by directing people to others writings. Just becuase its in a book, it doesn't make it right. It just makes it another mans opinion. Angel17TS
Once again: Islam is an ideology, not a race. It's that simple.
And according to you, nonexistent comments which I haven't actually made anywhere are - in your opinion - the worst comments on this thread. This coming from someone who thinks that their own comment about Jews learning how to gas people in the camps is funny.
Sweet!
The dance continues. No books quotes, Im shocked.
You know, there is no need for you to carry on like a silly little girl. I don't know who you are trying to impress with such childish behaviour. You have shown that you can engage in a real discussion on this extremely thorny topic, in a thoughtful and mature manner. Anyone reading your posts can see that this is a better approach.
Don't you think?
zaron,
1) It’s you who’s meandering around the points I raised. Try addressing them instead.
2) You will find the translation of the Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith, recognised as reliable by all schools of Islamic scholarship, on the website of the Centre for Muslim-Jewish Engagement - the translation is by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, and from the hadith dealing with wedlock, book 62, we find the following:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
3) Rest assured, I’m well aware of the history of the Knights of St. John. I can say with some authority that your “nutshell version” is a very poor effort. Since you brought it up though, I'll mention that the Knights’ “forerunner” was in fact a fellow called Brother Gerard, who was the head of a hospice for pilgrims in Jerusalem around 1080. The historian Ernle Bradford, who served in the Royal Navy during WWII, wrote:
“The Order that Gerard founded anticipated by many centuries all subsequent organisations devoted to the care of the poor and the sick throughout the world. In his ideals he echoed the Founder of Christianity. Members of the Order were enjoined to consider the poor as “our lords, whose servants we acknowledge ourselves to be”. They were also to dress as humbly as did the poor. The nobility of Gerard’s aims and life would be hard to equal at any time, but in the twelfth century, when the western world was based on the feudal concept of lord and serf, they were exceptional. His epitaph is hardly an exaggeration: “Here lies Gerard, the most humble man in the East and the servant of the poor. He was hospitable to all strangers, a gentle man with a courageous heart. One can judge within these walls just how good he was. Provident and active in every kind of way, he stretched out his arms to many lands in order to obtain whatever he needed to feed his people.” (Bradford, “The Shield and The Sword,” Penguin, pp. 24 – 25.)
The Order of Malta is still with us today, and carries out humanitarian and medical work throughout the world. Their relief organisations and ambulance corps operate in over thirty countries. Their latest projects include the inauguration of a children's home and playground in Sri Lanka; running an information campaign about bird flu in refugee camps, and providing business training for indigent women in Thailand; providing support for earthquake victims in Pakistan; and vaccinating children and providing assistance to pregnant women in Darfur, Sudan.
I don’t know if you have been misinformed, or if you are being disingenuous, but so far as your biased portrayal of the Knights of St. John goes, well how can I put this ... you are providing less than half the story, and that out of context.
Your “meandering” around the plain fact that the Knights of St. John successfully defended Malta - and Europe - against an Islamic empire (not some unknown and un-named form of “religious extremism”) is just laughable, and your supposed “doubt” about the significance of the Knights’ sacrifice, and that of the Maltese people too, as they stopped the Ottoman Empire in its tracks in 1565, is irrelevant. The facts speak for themselves. And if we ever need someone to speak for them, we have writers such as Ernle Bradford and Roger Crowley (Please do read “Empires of The Sea”).
4) I have to comment on your use of the concept of doubt in order to make your argument. If someone said to you that they doubted whether any of the events from the last 60 yrs regarding the Palestinians had “any real relevance historically outside of the sentimental”, would you regard that as a convincing argument, and throw aside your “kinship” with the Palestinians? No? You wouldn’t? Well, your argument is equally unimpressive.
5) If you want to deal with women being raped and then being vilified (and worse) for being raped, then I suggest you look into “honour killing”- an absolutely appalling practice. As it happens, the Institute for the Study of Civil Society (CIVITAS) recently prepared a report on this, and if you’re at all interested, it is worth reading. (Here’s the link.)
Niccolo.
Niccolo,Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
Look up at the topic title. It says "Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09". It does not say "Muslims why they are evil people who should be dehumanized and persecuted". Let me slow it down and s-p-e-l-l i-t o-u-t f-o-r y-o-u: the topic is current events of innocent Palestinians being killed.
Though I understand that distracting people by changing the subject to one where you get to dehumanize muslims and Palestinians and in effect justifying their persecution is useful to your personal interests, it does not have anything to do with the topic, "Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09". So to say I am meandering by sticking on topic is a complete bold face lie. I have addressed all of your nonsense even though the vast majority of it is about bullshit from 1000 years ago.
FYI: The words used are nikah and dukah for the events that occur at 6 and 9 respectively. Now, nikah which is the equivalent of an engagement or in Islam a legal binding promise to be in state of marriage and dukah is when the woman moves into the man's house and becomes his wife. Intercourse may or may not happen but it is rarely documented in religious texts.
Furthermore, even if he was a pedophile and the worst person in the history of the world, it does not matter. It still does not justify killing innocent Palestinians and if you think it does why don't you just say that outright?
None of the things you say about the Knights of St. John changes the fact that the knights who transformed the group from a hospital to a military order, were the very same ruthless knights who participated in the crusades which concluded with the slaughter of Jerusalem's people. Nor does it change the fact that after they were expelled from Jerusalem they conducted a military campaign against fellow Christians in Rhodes which led to their eventual "acquisition" of Rhodes. Over time this order may have evolved into a force for good but its role in history (as long as it is not written by the pope) is not as saintly as you would make it out to be. Again, who cares about this? What is the relevance of the Knights of St. John to the topic of "Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09"?
The events of the last 60 years have a direct causal link to what happens today and you can see the continuous thread of events that have led to what happens today that is why these events are relevant. There is no causal link or apparent chain of events between what happened over a 1000 years ago and today, except maybe in your convoluted logic.
Yes, honour killings are appalling. Does this mean that it is ok to essentially do the same to Palestinians? Why not say so outright if that is what you mean?
It is starting to strike me that you are the only person here at this point who is making negative stereotyping remarks about a people and their core values. Nobody has come out and said that all Jews are evil because of the actions of the Israeli state or even because of ridiculous sweeping remarks that individuals like you throw out in the guise of discourse. It leads me to believe that you as an individual are just a bitter little man, you want empathy for yourself but have none for others. I think the best thing for you to do is to go out and actually meet, get to know and make friends with someone who is muslim so that you can grow out of this bitter hate filled cocoon you seem to have woven yourself into. The internet and books are not adequate substitutes for the perspective gained through human contact.
Best of luck.
And look at the video given in support of that topic title. It does not show a scene after an IDF attack in Gaza, on 1/1/09 or any other time. It shows how Hamas gunmen allowed a crowd of children to gather round a lorryload of explosives and then one of the incompetent bastards had an ND and set the whole lot off.Quote:
Look up at the topic title. It says "Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09". It does not say "Muslims why they are evil people who should be dehumanized and persecuted". Let me slow it down and s-p-e-l-l i-t o-u-t f-o-r y-o-u: the topic is current events of innocent Palestinians being killed.
Isn't that right? Watch the video.
Though I understand that distracting people by putting that title above a video showing people dying because of something that Hamas did, or changing the subject whenever anyone points that out to one where people get to attack Israel, or trying to justify the persecution of anyone criticising Islam (which is an ideology, not a race), will prevent some people from realising that the scene the video shows is one of people dying because Hamas likes their kiddies to learn all about guns, oh yes - read the article accompanying the video - and because some stupid incompetent Hamas gunman had an ND, and ended up blowing a heap of people to bits.
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A second front to the conflict in the Gaza Strip has opened up in Europe, where a wave of reprisal attacks against Jewish targets is stoking fears of a wider resurgence of anti-Semitism on the continent. Far from simply being a spate of isolated incidents, as many Europeans claim, anti-Semitic violence is becoming more commonplace in every country in Europe. At the same time, anti-Israel demonstrations, which have strong anti-Semitic overtones, are being held with alarming frequency in cities across Europe.
In France, the National Bureau of Vigilance Against Anti-Semitism says it has received more than 100 reports of anti-Semitic violence since the start of Israel’s military operation in Gaza on December 27. Recent incidents include arson attacks against synagogues and Jewish community centers in several French cities, as well as physical assaults of Jews in Paris and elsewhere.
[...]
Many European newspaper commentators are saying that concerns about anti-Semitism in Europe are overblown. They argue that the Jew haters are a tiny minority on the extreme political right who are given far more attention than they deserve. They also say that those concerned about the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe are confusing legitimate criticism of Israeli policies with anti-Semitism.
But myriad polling data show that all across Europe, the fine line between valid criticism of Israel and anti-Semitism has been dangerously blurred. An opinion poll in Germany, for example, shows that more than 50 percent of Germans equate Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians with Nazi treatment of the Jews. Sixty-eight percent of Germans say that Israel is waging a “war of extermination” against the Palestinian people. In terms of Europe as a whole, another poll shows that the majority of Europeans regard Israel as the greatest threat to world peace.
Opinions as grossly irrational as these imply that for many Europeans, anti-Israelism has become a convenient smokescreen for anti-Semitism. Taking this logic full-circle, the belief that Israel is the main force for evil in the world also acts to further legitimize anti-Semitism.
But how can Europeans, who famously pride themselves on being more sophisticated than everyone else, be so woefully ignorant about the reality of the situation in Israel? Much of the blame lies with Europe’s leftwing mass media establishment, which for many years has been systematically and unabashedly purveying the idea that to be anti-Israel (and anti-American and pro-pacifist) is to be sophisticated and politically correct.
Of course, the gatekeepers of European multiculturalism understand that it would be unsophisticated and politically incorrect to be openly anti-Semitic. But self-righteous criticism of Israel is another matter altogether. Thus European publics are being bombarded with round-the-clock, knee-jerk, anti-Israel political bigotry disguised as news coverage. By making such deception fashionable, European media are inciting anti-Semitism.
In one of the more outrageous examples of anti-Israel media bias, France 2 national public television used an outdated amateur video of Palestinian casualties from an accidental truck explosion in 2005 as current footage demonstrating the violence in Gaza. The video shows dead bodies of babies being laid out on white sheets. France 2 was forced to come clean when a French political blog uncovered the trickery. (France 2 also was responsible for a September 2000 report, accused of being a fake, of the supposed shooting death of Mohammed al-Dura, a 12-year-old Palestinian boy, by the Israeli army.)
[...]
Meanwhile, the European political class, which is hyper-sensitive to anti-Muslim bigotry, has remained largely indifferent to the problem of rising anti-Semitism. A recent report on the epidemic of anti-Semitic violence in the European Union shows that most European countries do not even keep official records of anti-Semitic crimes. (The first such report, which was published by the EU’s Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia in late 2003, was initially suppressed and only publicized after months of public outcry.)
European officialdom seems afraid to admit that Europe has a problem with anti-Semitism because doing so would shatter the myth that supports one of the main pillars of European self-identity. After all, European elites would like the world to believe that the European Union is a postmodern multicultural utopia where people of all tribes, tongues, and nations live together in perfect harmony.
Of course, the European political left is also pursuing an ideological battle to eradicate Judeo-Christian influences from European culture. Part of the strategy to achieve their objective involves embracing a host of Muslim causes. And so millions of Europeans have eagerly joined ranks with Islam’s 60-year challenge to Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. Indeed, when European commentators proclaim that Israel is a Nazi, apartheid, pariah state, they are deliberately calling into question Israel’s legitimacy. What is clear is that European anti-Semitism says a lot more about the state of contemporary Europe than it does about the State of Israel. - Soeren Kern
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Furthermore, even if he was a pedophile and the worst person in the history of the world, it does not matter. It still does not justify killing innocent Palestinians and if you think it does why don't you just say that outright?
If you'd bothered to actually read what I said you'll see that in the first instance, Kaiti had made some comments about Islam - and once again, Islam is an ideology and not a race - and was roundly criticised for doing so. One of the things she said was that their prophet was a paedophile, and she also said that he had done things which today would be considered acts of terrorism. In response to the personal attacks which ensued, I sent in what was (I think) my first post on this thread, wondering why it was that people could freely criticise Israel, even though the actual video at the top of the thread showed Hamas gunmen managing to kill heaps of people, and yet whenever Kaiti made comments criticising Islam (again: Islam is an ideology and not a race) she was attacked for doing so?
It is perfectly possible for one to have studied Islam, to whatever extent one is able, given one's everyday time constraints, real-life commitments etc., and to reach the conclusions Kaiti did. I tried to show that. And in answer to your question, it obviously does matter. Kaiti would be right, and the people who attacked her would be wrong to do so. (And that's just the consequences of that being true here on this board. Obviously the consequences out in the real world would be fucking massive - if it could be acknowledged openly.)
I presented an analogy showing how alike the barbaric acts commited by the Japanese before and during WWII, to fellow Asians and Allied POWs alike, were to some of the acts commited by devout Muslims throughout history, not least their Prophet, who beheaded a tribe of Jewish prisoners who had already surrendered, raped one of the widows and sold the rest of the women and children into slavery. I asked why one could criticise the Japanese for doing such things, but excuse someone else - far from addressing this effectively, all you said was that the beheading of prisoners by the Japanese and the beheading of prisoners by Islamic warriors are "not comparable." That there's "definitely a difference." Some argument, that! I bet it took you a long time to get that one ready before posting it!
For you to say that you have addressed what was put before you - that is obviously nonsense.
And what, Ernle Bradford (the author of "The Shield and The Sword") was Pope was he? That's news to me. I thought he served in the Royal Navy during WWII before going on to be an accomplished sailor and military historian. You learn something new every day, eh ...
First off Islam is not an ideaology but a religeon which in terms of a technical definition might be the same but in practical application is distinct because people choose an ideology but the vast majority of people though technically can choose a religeon are born into it. Essentially, it is for the vast majority of people (whether they choose to practice or not) an association by birth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
When you attack something such as this it is loosely the equivalent of attacking someone who is gay for being gay or attacking Jews for being Jewish which is also not an ethnicity but a religeon. Accordingly, if being anti-Jewish is the same as being anti-semitic (Arabs are also semites by the way) or being racist, than the same relationship holds true for Islam and muslims. You seem to be a smart fellow, so I doubt that you have failed to grasp this on your own. This is why being anti-Islam or anti-muslim is as wrong as being anti-Jewish.
This is also why all the remarks that you mention above are extremely offensive, if you don't like people throwing around "anti-semitic" slurs than you should probably try to refrain from doing the same to others.
Finally, if you think that human culture, customs and civility haven't evolved over the course of 1300 years and cannot understand what the contextual difference between something that happened in 640 and 1940 then you may be well served by installing a moat around your abode as there maybe some marauding vikings on the prowl.
I agree completely. Our media doesn't have the balls to air this stuff. The most they will say on the issue is how many civilians Israel has killed, spreading the propaganda that gets people to forget that these "civilians" elected terrorist organizations into political offices, and then sat by idly as groups like Hamas and Hezbollah fired rocks FROM CIVILIAN neighborhoods, next to schools, next to hospitals, next to residential districts into Israel...hoping, daring, wishing Israel would strike back.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanchai
If Mexico's people elected a terrorist group into office, and then watched or cheered on as that terrorist group fired rockets from residential areas into southern California, we'd go in and kill every baby, disfigure every women, kill every parent, burn every house, bomb every town, and torture every survivor until it stopped. By comparison, Israel at least has the sense to put their responses on a tight leash... they sat by as more than 3,000 of those rockets were fired into their boarders in 2008 before reacting with force.
That would never happen here.
So far as my remarks about the Knights of St. John are concerned, perhaps I should draw your attention to the context in which I first mentioned them on this thread: as warriors who fought a military battle against vastly superior odds, and who employed one of the most terrible weapons one could ever imagine against the Janissaries who laid siege to Fort St. Elmo. And I mentioned the siege of Malta (the first siege, that is) in the same breath as the battles at Tours, Lepanto and Vienna. So, hardly portaying the Knights of St. John as "saintly" I was showing that they, as well as others throughout history - and this includes the Allied forces in the Pacific in WWII - fought using whatever means was necessary, in order to defeat their enemy. That was the point I was making! So your assertion that I was making them out to be "saintly" is obviously incorrect.
"The Janissaries, who had been waiting for days to prove their prowess, were given their chance that morning. Mustapha Pasha unleashed line upon line of the Sultan's finest troops against the charred and cracked walls of St. Elmo. The Turkish losses were heavy, for the defenders behind their parapets made use of every device which the Knights of St. John had learned in four centuries of war. Worse even than wildfire or the trump, was the firework hoop - the invention of which was attributed by the historian Vertot to la Valette himself, but by Balbi to a Brother of the Order, Ramon Fortunii.
These hoops, "composed of the lightest wood, were first dipped into brandy, then rubbed with oil, and then covered with wool and cotton which had been soaked in other combustible liquors, as well as mixed with saltpetre and gunpowder. When the preparation was cool, the whole process was repeated several times. On an assault, when the hoops were on fire, they were taken up with tongs and thrown into the midst of the advancing battalions. Two or three soldiers regularly would get entangled with one of these blazing hoops .."
Their impact on the Moslems in their loose-flowing light robes was devastating. It was largely owing to these hoops that this first major assault on St. Elmo failed." (Bradford, "The Great Siege", Penguin, pp. 98 - 99.)
So what you're saying is that one's religion is merely a function of one's address.Quote:
First off Islam is not an ideaology but a religeon which in terms of a technical definition might be the same but in practical application is distinct because people choose an ideology but the vast majority of people though technically can choose a religeon are born into it. Essentially, it is for the vast majority of people (whether they choose to practice or not) an association by birth.
Therefore anyone who thinks critically about any religon at all, anywhere at any time, under any circumstances whatsoever, is inevitably and automatically guilty of a thoughtcrime?
Stunning piece of logical thinking, that. :lol:
We all remember 9/11 but as I have said several times now on this thread, there have been many, many more terrorist attacks throughout the world since then, including quite a few in the United Kingdom. Imagine what it would be like to have to endure that every day. Imagine that .. then think what it would be like to live in Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by SarahG
Not one of the people who have happily criticised Israel on this thread has responded to that. (So far as I can recall anyway - if anyone has, then please correct me here.)
And I agree too, what would happen if British or American soldiers allowed a bunch of children on to a military base, then let them play around a lorryload of explosives - and then managed through their own incompetence, to blow them all up? There would be a fucking uproar - and rightly so!
Of course our soldiers are professionals. They don't allow children on to military bases, and they certainly wouldn't let them play beside a lorryload of explosives. That just wouldn't happen.
But why were those Hamas gunmen letting children play beside a heap of explosives? And flashing their weapons at them?
Were they just a bunch of stupid bastards? Or were they helping to indoctrinate children, so that they would become suicide bombers, or something of that sort? Is that a possibility? Has that ever happened before? I mean, we've all seen kiddies wearing those green bandanas .. I wonder if some of the people on this thread, who would like everyone to think their primary concern is the wellbeing of innocent Palestinian children, would like to address these questions?
Why? What were they doing, do you think?Quote:
Finally, muslims were already in Europe via Spain and South Eastern Europe .. - zaron
You'll find the two are not mutually exclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niccolo
That'll never happen, just as people will remain silent when its pointed out that these 3,000+ rockets were putting Israeli children at grave risk, or that Hamas and Hezbollah both intentionally went into residential places to fire rockets HOPING that counter-strikes would take out these Palestinian & Lebanese children.Quote:
I wonder if some of the people on this thread, who would like everyone to think their primary concern is the wellbeing of innocent Palestinian children, would like to address these questions?
"The main reason I'd been glad to leave America was Protestant fundamentalism. But Europe, I eventually saw, was falling prey to an even more alarming fundamentalism whose leaders made their American Protestant counterparts look like amateurs. Falwell was an unsavory creep, but he didn't issue fatwas. James Dobson's parenting advice was appalling, but he wasn't telling people to murder their daughters. American liberals had been fighting the Religious Right for decades; Western Europeans had yet to even acknowledge that they had a Religious Right. How could they ignore it? Certainly as a gay man, I couldn't close my eyes to this grim reality. Pat Robertson just wanted to deny me marriage; the imams wanted to drop a wall on me. I wasn't fond of the hypocritical conservative-Christian line about hating the sin and loving the sinner, but it was preferable to the forthright fundamantalist Muslim view that homosexuals merited death. [...]Quote:
When you attack (criticise) something such as this (Islam) it is loosely the equivalent of attacking someone who is gay for being gay or attacking Jews for being Jewish which is also not an ethnicity but a religeon. - zaron
The situation was alarming. The very things I most loved about the Netherlands - and about Europe - were the things most threatened by the rise of fundamentalist Islam. Yet the Dutch did nothing. Why did they refuse to deal with something that obviously endangered their freedom? Didn't they see what I did? Didn't they notice the look of rage in the eyes of many Muslim men at the sight of that ultimate spectacle of dishonor - a Dutch woman bicycling to work? Or did they assume that such men, simply by inhaling the damp Dutch air, would somehow magically become open-minded and secular?" (Bruce Bawer, While Europe Slept, Broadway, pp. 33-34.)
In this passage Bruce Bawer, who one might "loosely" describe as being a gay bloke from America who now lives in Norway, is criticising Islam (and the Dutch). Please explain to me how, as Bawer criticised the "fundamentalist Muslim view" that he should die because he was gay, he could possibly be doing something "loosely" akin to criticising himself, or anyone else for that matter, for actually being gay?
(Bawer is an excellent writer BTW. "While Europe Slept" is an astonishing book. He's also written some great articles - Google him & see for yourself.)
The men who did this weren't Vikings. Were they?