What happens to tgirls when they get old(er)?

Malaysian prostitutes snub retirement home offer
Posted on Thursday, October 12, 2006 (EST)
Ageing prostitutes in an eastern Malaysian state have reportedly snubbed the government's offer of free retirement

KUALA LUMPUR (AFP) - "We want to give them a new life but they seem uninterested," said Rosol Wahid, an Islamic development official from conservative Terengganu state.

"All we want them to do is give up their profession and lead a decent life," he told The Star newspaper.

Terengganu authorities offered 15 prostitutes, most of whom had been in the sex industry for some two decades, rent-free apartments in a housing complex in a gesture to mark the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

But none have taken up the offer, preferring instead to remain in the town centre, continuing to practice their trade and living in dilapidated wooden houses.

"I am getting old and my loyal clients have promised to take care of my welfare when I retire," said 50-year-old sex worker Makcik Ayu, adding that the residents of the apartment block would harass the women if they moved in.

http://www.sawfnews.com/lifestyle/23826.aspx

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Originally Posted by SarahG

But I am intrigued on one point, are you saying you don't think trans medical care should ever be included under health care programs because of the perception the general public has over it?

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Not at all. The general public will unfortunately believe many things that they hear repeatedly. So they need to start hearing that gender identity is not necessarily determined by genitalia far more often than they do now.

But the late transitioners often do become the face of transsexuality, and not in a good way. But I suspect thats because they stick out more like sore thumbs, and are often more obvious about struggling with making the adjustment; they find themselves having a lot more explaining to do, and speaking for us all. I don't necessarily blame them for it, but it doesn't help matters.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

If we're using terms correctly, a pre-op is not at an "ok place" by being pre-op. That's why we have terms like non-op.

A pre-op is someone who feels they need SRS to be happy. That's why the term implies they will eventually get SRS.

I would propose that the fact that we have non-op as a term today, is evidence that there are people out there... people the medical community & trans community used to hide, who do not need need SRS to be happy, and this is becoming more and more recognized. Though OTOH this somewhat ignores that even Benjamin's transsexualism tier scheme assumed that different people would need different types of treatment to be happy. Even he realized that not everyone would need SRS, or HRT for that matter.

Why is this issue always presented as if its always all one, or all the other?

Some people simply will not be happy until they're accepted by society living how they want to live indifferent to how they look.

Some people simply will not be happy until their body is how they think it should be, indifferent to how society views them.

Some people need both.

It's really not that complicated.

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And that's why I think "true" and "untrue" are a slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

If we are using 3rd gender to mean "there is a male gender, a female gender, and everyone else is a 3rd gender" then you have to coupe with a fatal flaw- and that's the fatal flaw of saying that MtF's and FtM's are the same gender. That's crazy talk.

It would be far more easy, and accurate, to instead of using fabricated PC-terms like "3rd gender"- to just drop the facades and say "either there are two genders... or gender is a spectrum." Because you simply can't lump all MtF, FtM, and etc. people together and say they have the same gender. They do NOT all have the same gender, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs a major reality check. Usually when people start spouting off about this so called "3rd gender" they're coming from a world view where there are only 3 people; GG's, GB's, and MtF's. Any classification scheme needs to take FtM's into consideration if it is taking MtF's into consideration.

If we were to start making up new genders for every oddball situation, where would it end? This would be an argument for at least 4 genders, possibly 5 if we opened it up to androgies.

3rd gender was a term fabricated to advocate a political position. It's factually baseless and without supporting logic.

The same is just as true if we start using "3rd gender" to talk about classifying sex. You simply cannot argue that MtF's and FtM's are the same sex, for the same reason why you cannot argue that GG's and GB's are the same sex.

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I agree with all of that, but I still try to present things in a way that the average breeder and/or heterosexist can understand. ;)

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm very much ok with concepts like 'girls look and behave like mommy' and 'boys look and behave like daddy'. I just don't think that what we use to pee or have orgasms with should determine whether you're a boy or a girl. :P My parents still serve as my two gender archetypes. But I'm not trying to sanctify those archetypes, and I don't necessarily associate either with genitalia.

Btw, I still consider SRS EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE. But it's not plaguing me, or making me feel "less than".

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Originally Posted by Nicole Dupre

But the late transitioners often do become the face of transsexuality, and not in a good way. But I suspect thats because they stick out more like sore thumbs, and are often more obvious about struggling with making the adjustment; they find themselves having a lot more explaining to do, and speaking for us all. I don't necessarily blame them for it, but it doesn't help matters.

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I would agree with that. Someone who starts early and can pass may be out as out gets but unless she's walking around with a tshirt that boldly says "I'm trans," the general public might well never know in just passing her in a store or the mall.

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And that's why I think "true" and "untrue" are a slippery slope.

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I do think that Benjamin's choice of terminology was more than a tick unfortunate. If he had just plainly setup his tier system so it read something like; "transsexuals who need SRS," and "transsexuals who need all but SRS" instead of this true versus untrue stuff, I doubt people would get their panties tied in knots so easily over it.

However I don't think it ever was meant to be more than a diagnostic tool, to say nothing of a divide & conquer tool.

I believe that it was the so-called community itself that was responsible for taking Benjamin et al's work and turning it into a line of distinction. If there is anything that is painfully obvious anywhere in trans spaces, it is how common trans people will try to seek validation through "trans-ier than thou" arguments debating who knew at the earliest age, who started hrt first, who got implants first, who was the youngest to go fulltime- I could go on and on. True/untrue was just another sentence to throw into that already existing, never ending pile of elitism.

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I agree with all of that, but I still try to present things in a way that the average breeder and/or heterosexist can understand. ;)

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lol, well in that case- do we need to dumb stuff down on this site? I would think the people who would have trouble keeping up have probably already distanced themselves from this thread.

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Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm very much ok with concepts like 'girls look and behave like mommy' and 'boys look and behave like daddy'. I just don't think that what we use to pee or have orgasms with should determine whether you're a boy or a girl. :P

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That's actually what I was trying to get at the other day in that thread where Bella and I were talking about a few similar things.

At the end of the day the brain is the most definitively important sex characteristic there is. Not everyone with a vagina is going to think, act, or perform functions like a girl. Not everyone with a penis is going to think, act, or perform functions like a guy- the brain dictates how the person does, pretty much, everything. You could take anyone off the street, give them SRS- and while they might be legally another sex after the fact (depending on what state you're in), unless you lucked into picking someone who was trans (statistically unlikely) you're going to be stuck with someone who is, for all practical purposes outside of sexual intercourse, their birth sex still. They won't think, walk, talk, or do much of anything as the opposite from their birth sex, because the brain simply won't know how.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

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Originally Posted by Nicole Dupre

But the late transitioners often do become the face of transsexuality, and not in a good way. But I suspect thats because they stick out more like sore thumbs, and are often more obvious about struggling with making the adjustment; they find themselves having a lot more explaining to do, and speaking for us all. I don't necessarily blame them for it, but it doesn't help matters.

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I would agree with that. Someone who starts early and can pass may be out as out gets but unless she's walking around with a tshirt that boldly says "I'm trans," the general public might well never know in just passing her in a store or the mall.

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And that's why I think "true" and "untrue" are a slippery slope.

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I do think that Benjamin's choice of terminology was more than a tick unfortunate. If he had just plainly setup his tier system so it read something like; "transsexuals who need SRS," and "transsexuals who need all but SRS" instead of this true versus untrue stuff, I doubt people would get their panties tied in knots so easily over it.

However I don't think it ever was meant to be more than a diagnostic tool, to say nothing of a divide & conquer tool.

I believe that it was the so-called community itself that was responsible for taking Benjamin et al's work and turning it into a line of distinction. If there is anything that is painfully obvious anywhere in trans spaces, it is how common trans people will try to seek validation through "trans-ier than thou" arguments debating who knew at the earliest age, who started hrt first, who got implants first, who was the youngest to go fulltime- I could go on and on. True/untrue was just another sentence to throw into that already existing, never ending pile of elitism.

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I agree with all of that, but I still try to present things in a way that the average breeder and/or heterosexist can understand. ;)

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lol, well in that case- do we need to dumb stuff down on this site? I would think the people who would have trouble keeping up have probably already distanced themselves from this thread.

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Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'm very much ok with concepts like 'girls look and behave like mommy' and 'boys look and behave like daddy'. I just don't think that what we use to pee or have orgasms with should determine whether you're a boy or a girl. :P

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That's actually what I was trying to get at the other day in that thread where Bella and I were talking about a few similar things.

At the end of the day the brain is the most definitively important sex characteristic there is. Not everyone with a vagina is going to think, act, or perform functions like a girl. Not everyone with a penis is going to think, act, or perform functions like a guy- the brain dictates how the person does, pretty much, everything. You could take anyone off the street, give them SRS- and while they might be legally another sex after the fact (depending on what state you're in), unless you lucked into picking someone who was trans (statistically unlikely) you're going to be stuck with someone who is, for all practical purposes outside of sexual intercourse, their birth sex still. They won't think, walk, talk, or do much of anything as the opposite from their birth sex, because the brain simply won't know how.

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Great response, particularly this:

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I do think that Benjamin's choice of terminology was more than a tick unfortunate. If he had just plainly setup his tier system so it read something like; "transsexuals who need SRS," and "transsexuals who need all but SRS" instead of this true versus untrue stuff, I doubt people would get their panties tied in knots so easily over it.

However I don't think it ever was meant to be more than a diagnostic tool, to say nothing of a divide & conquer tool.

I believe that it was the so-called community itself that was responsible for taking Benjamin et al's work and turning it into a line of distinction. If there is anything that is painfully obvious anywhere in trans spaces, it is how common trans people will try to seek validation through "trans-ier than thou" arguments debating who knew at the earliest age, who started hrt first, who got implants first, who was the youngest to go fulltime- I could go on and on. True/untrue was just another sentence to throw into that already existing, never ending pile of elitism.

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And this:

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lol, well in that case- do we need to dumb stuff down on this site? I would think the people who would have trouble keeping up have probably already distanced themselves from this thread.

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The thread had pretty much evolved / devolved, depending on your
perspective to something that only a "true" gender theorist would have
an interest in.

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Originally Posted by SarahG

However I don't think it ever was meant to be more than a diagnostic tool, to say nothing of a divide & conquer tool.

I believe that it was the so-called community itself that was responsible for taking Benjamin et al's work and turning it into a line of distinction. If there is anything that is painfully obvious anywhere in trans spaces, it is how common trans people will try to seek validation through "trans-ier than thou" arguments debating who knew at the earliest age, who started hrt first, who got implants first, who was the youngest to go fulltime- I could go on and on. True/untrue was just another sentence to throw into that already existing, never ending pile of elitism.

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I agree, but elitism doesn't end with transsexuals and is not inherently bad. Women are often as obsessed with out-doing each other as transsexuals are. Women also become sex-workers, but some are more self-destructive than others. Being a Hooters girl is not necessarily a dead end, but it may create validation and self-esteem issues.

In regards to the HBS, I also think a much more useful distinction would be to divide pantie fetishists, who masturbate in private, and those who live their lives as women. "True" and everything not "true" is perhaps not intentionally divisive language, but is a horrible place establish a status quo at. Look at the way a self-loathing closet case like Phobun conveniently employs it on a TS porn forum.

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lol, well in that case- do we need to dumb stuff down on this site? I would think the people who would have trouble keeping up have probably already distanced themselves from this thread.

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Well, most guys here wouldn't know the HBS from HBO. They're still wresting with their manhood and sexuality, over concepts like a great pair of tits being attached to body with a big cock. The theme of the forum is "HUNG angels". I don't use terms like shemale anywhere but places like here. But I recognize the broader spectrum, and so do most people on my side of the equation. ;)

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Originally Posted by Nicole Dupre

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Originally Posted by peggygee

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Originally Posted by Bunzee

i often think about it too what do tgirls do when they get older ... would love to hear from older girls about this ...

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I'm one of the oldest women that I know of. Of the women that I came up
with, of my contemporaries all are dead, and none died of old age or
natural causes.

Back in the day, I was wild and adventurous, engaged in a lot of "sex,
drugs, and rock and roll." But I also knew that I wanted to live a long
time, and that was a possibilty given the genetics on both sides of my
family.

Thus I made a good foundation for the future by furthering my education,
seeking counselling on things that troubled me, and basically solving
problems in my life that I had the ability too solve.

As a result many of the goals that I strived for in life have been achieved.
I was able to obtain GRS, I'm clean and sober, I work a mainstream job.
Basically I have assimilated, and I'm just a regular Black woman, which
was pretty much what I desired from the onset.

Today, I observe and speak with quite a few younger transwomen, who
by choice or necessity seem to live only for today.

They appear to live as if their mantra was 'Live fast, die young and leave a
good looking corpse'

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With all due respect, after the 3 or so years you've been here, I really have to question what the big motivation is behind all of the endorsing you do of SRS. I do know that for for some older TS, its a jealousy/"misery loves company" thing. At this point, I think the urgency for SRS, and even stealth, is nowhere close to what it was when you transitioned. The idea that SRS makes you "complete" is disappearing. The HBS are borderline offensive, although they were indeed all we had to legitimize our yearning to make a little progress for so long. Back in the day, the first thing they did when you said you wanted to transition was give you an orchi, which in retrospect is a very extreme course of action. In contrast, now it's generally the second to last thing girls do.

I also think stats on TS are probably some of the most inaccurate of all. Most TS aren't coming forward to actually say they're TS, unless they work in the adult industry where it only behooves them. In addition, most of the girls doing well in that industry, like most of the ones who regularly post here, are beating the odds of your observation. Stealth girls don't share info. Younger TS have more love and support from they're families and won't face these same struggles that the girls before them did.

And how many not-so-attractive late bloomers do we see, who live to a ripe old age but couldn't pass if they're lives depended on it? They lived 75% of their lives as men, and now they want to champion the cause of going to a 3rd world country and buying a firecracker pussy with their 401k money. But what they do, inadvertently or not, is make us all look like freaks. Look at the UK where they've made srs part of their social medicine program. They're sending brick after dickless brick into the world, and they talk like they represent anyone more than themselves.

So I dunno, Peggy. Maybe you're being helpful, but I think these anecdotes you often share are are a bit insular, if not sanctimonious at times. I have to wonder if you're not romanticizing more about being a crusader than you are being an instrument of practical change. Tell me more about what you do for your sisters beyond copy and paste stuff onto forums, and perhaps you'll change my perspective.

Are there potential trappings in the sex worker lifestyle? Yes. But many GGs and gay men are up against the same thing, and no operation is the cure-all. And plenty of pre-ops, in fact, do just fine.

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i believe the answer to your question lies in in this thread http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=49778

• Peggygee is right in that Ts who work in the porn and escorting business tend to live shorter lives than the TS of who work regular jobs in society .

here on HA we have 2 girls who are best friends and who both are working in the sex trade . 1 girl is middle aged and has escorted for years and has also done porn and the 2nd girl who is in her mid 20's has escorted since her early teens and too has done porn . In the last 2 years the younger friend has aged in dog years and looks 10 years older than her actual age .

• over the next 10 years these 2 friends will make an interesting study of just what happens to TS sex workers when they get older . if they are still living in 10 years .

dc_guy_75 wrote:

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Unfortunately, many tgirls have bypassed working on legit careers or higher education to pay for their needs at the time, I picture nursing or being a real estate agent good career choices...

Maybe I'm generalizing,

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Duhhhhhh.......ya think so? Instead of making rash assumptions about and peculiar career choices for others why not work on mastering the art of the complete sentence? :roll:

Nicole, will you invite me to your house for Thanksgiving dinner?

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Originally Posted by Nicole Dupre

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Originally Posted by phobun

No, as was clear in your attack on Peggygee, you're the one with issues about operative status. There is a home here for post-op transsexuals and guys who like them here, regardless of whether that makes you uncomfortable.

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"Uncomfortable" around post ops? lol Wake up and smell the coffee. One of my dearest and best friends is a post op TS, and she's emotionally light years beyond Peggy imho. She wouldn't waste her time on a pre-op porn forum doing public relations for post ops for a minute. She transitioned in her early teens, and had srs well over 10 years ago. If she invites me to her home for Christmas dinner, don't you think we'd know each other well enough to be more than "comfortable" with one another's value systems?

Please answer one direct question. Have you ever had a close relationship of any kind with any type of TS, pre or post?

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Originally Posted by Floyd R

Nicole, will you invite me to your house for Thanksgiving dinner?

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Sorry, Floyd, but I've already accepted an invitation. :)

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Originally Posted by Nicole Dupre

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Originally Posted by Floyd R

Nicole, will you invite me to your house for Thanksgiving dinner?

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Sorry, Floyd, but I've already accepted an invitation. :)

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At Peggy's house, its only a true turkey after its been carved ;)

FK