US Elections 2020

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Originally Posted by Laphroaig

What were the poll numbers before the 2016 election?
Sadly I don't think a Trump loss is a done deal yet by any means. Plus, if it's a close vote he'll claim corruption and probably have to be removed from the White House bunker, kicking and screaming "unfair", by the National Guard.

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Fair point, but if Covid 19 is still a factor the practical matter of holding an election may be used to delay it -but for how long?

Meanwhile today's Independent is pushing Val Demmings, though this week Kamala Harris's odds rose and she has edged Val Demmings, with Susan Rice surging on the inside...below are some latest odds, and a speech from Demmings when she was Orlando Police chief.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics...tic-vp-nominee

https://bookies.com/news/joe-biden-vp-pick-odds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHULgUTCRn0

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Originally Posted by Laphroaig

What were the poll numbers before the 2016 election?

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I don't know what they were this far out but I created a thread on 9/26/2016 saying that according to 538 and other poll aggregators he was estimated to have close to a 50% chance of winning. What would it be like if he were President. It would be interesting to look at the first couple of responses because some still didn't think it was much of a possibility despite the polls. He is very far behind and some states that are usually not even in contention are going towards Biden. I'd feel a lot better if these were the numbers in September or October.

http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/sho...idency-Day-One

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Originally Posted by Stavros

Fair point, but if Covid 19 is still a factor the practical matter of holding an election may be used to delay it -but for how long?

Meanwhile today's Independent is pushing Val Demmings, though this week Kamala Harris's odds rose and she has edged Val Demmings, with Susan Rice surging on the inside...below are some latest odds, and a speech from Demmings when she was Orlando Police chief.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics...tic-vp-nominee

https://bookies.com/news/joe-biden-vp-pick-odds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHULgUTCRn0

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He can't pick Demmings because according to one of leaders of the BLM movement, once a black person becomes a cop they're no longer black, they're blue.

I really think Biden painted himself into a corner when he said that he would pick a woman as his running mate at one of the debates. The clamoring for it to be a black woman has only made his choice a bit more difficult.

The most important factor in picking a VP nominee is that they're ready to take over if something were to happen to the President. Now when you go by that criteria, Susan Rice would be the perfect choice, followed by Harris.

But here is where its get trickier for Biden. There are progressives who don't want anybody with a background in law enforcement and I get the sneaking suspicion, anyone with background like Susan's Rice would also fall under that category.

So now the question becomes if he picks the wrong black woman, are progressives and especially the BLM organization going to lose their shit and stay at home on Election Day. They're not excited about Biden in the first place, the wrong VP pick may make them even less enthusiastic.

Or what if he goes with Tammy Duckworth? I mean as long as its a woman of color, everything should be okay, right.

Now if he goes with Stacy Abrams or Karen Bass, does he give some moderates/independents reason to think twice about voting for him because of their lack of experience. Even if you think Obama was going to win regardless in 2008, there had to be some people who had misgivings about McCain because he chose Sarah Palin.

Finally, if you're a progressive white woman, are really cool with the fact that the only reason why Amy Klobuchar is not the nominee is because of the color of her skin?

Thank you for the insights, Blackubby38, it is hard at this distance to appreciate those nuances that Americans can see clearly. But really, all the top three candidates look capable, and yes, with a career in public service will bring their baggage too, so why can't people just accept that? There are no angels in politics, so why go looking for them?

I don't think it is as bad as 1968 or 1972, when the perception of the Democrats was of a party in chaos, hostage to every interest group going. And with this incumbent President incapable or unwilling to tell anyone what his second term is for, other than to make more money, the Democrats can and should at least offer a vision for the decade ahead, even if it means reviving Hope and Change -perhaps the VP can articulate the direction in which the US is going to go? It is a great opportunity to put clear blue water between the candidates, one hopes they don't muddy the waters instead. One newspaper here predicts a very, very dirty campaign by the Republicans.

Tammy Duckworth? I did not know much about her but read Frank Bruni's portrait in the New York Times -he thinks she is the kind of candidate immune from the President's vicious attacks, forgetting that John McCain was also a disabled war veteran, and is still the target of the little man. Curiously or not, this link from Fox News can't seem to find much with which to demonize her- but I don't know much else about her.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tam...c-vp-contender

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Originally Posted by Stavros

If the poll numbers get worse, he will resign, as he never loses. Then he can write a book about himself as the Greatest Undefeated President in the History of the World.

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You're dreaming, Stavros. He'll never resign. Even if he's defeated at the polls.

And here is how he can stay in office no matter that he loses the vote again-

https://www.newsweek.com/how-trump-c...pinion-1513975

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Originally Posted by Stavros

And here is how he can stay in office no matter that he loses the vote again-

https://www.newsweek.com/how-trump-c...pinion-1513975

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That is very scary scenario, and is one that the Clueless Buffoon In Chief will definitely try and use to stay in power if he loses the November Election. and the enablers in congress and the senate will be enabling and let him get away with it. and US Citizens should be very concern if that happens.

I read in this morning's papers Kanye West may run for the Presidency. Help me out here - who is he? I have no interest in rap, and even less in his wife. Is this serious, or just a media event?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I read in this morning's papers Kanye West may run for the Presidency. Help me out here - who is he? I have no interest in rap, and even less in his wife. Is this serious, or just a media event?

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Kayne West is a hip hop artist and a Trump Supporter,Fanboy and Sellout,No i don't he is serious about running for president. He just doing this take votes away from Joe Biden.

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Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0

Kayne West is a hip hop artist and a Trump Supporter,Fanboy and Sellout,No i don't he is serious about running for president. He just doing this take votes away from Joe Biden.

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Let me ask you a question,

What exactly makes Kayne a sellout?

Hard to believe Biden is "the best of the bunch".
Especially since he supported segregation.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/...their-n1021626

Joe Biden didn't just compromise with segregationists. He fought for their cause in schools, experts say.

IMHO, Tulsi Gabbard was the best of the Democrats....

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Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0

Kayne West is a hip hop artist and a Trump Supporter,Fanboy and Sellout,No i don't he is serious about running for president. He just doing this take votes away from Joe Biden.

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This guy is spot on in a lot areas...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2nQXzS8vsE

The video addresses some issues while ignoring others. The extent to which Black Americans are the authors of their own problems is one that can be debated without a conclusion: if job opportunities are scarce and no capital invested in an individual to start a business, and if the person concerned has no education, the illegal trade in narcotics looks more than attractive, it may be all there is. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty=crime=lethal violence, The Wire as documentary rather than fiction. But isn't drug dealing a business too? Just because it is illegal, doesn't mean the traders don't learn how to trade.

Yes, the political parties promise everything to get the vote, they do it for all the 'communities' they appeal to, just as Reagan atracted Blue Collar workers who normally voted Democrat- and presided over the sharpest rise in unemployment since the 1930s, left office with the biggest budget deficit in US History, and was the President when jobs were off-shored to Asia, the very jobs that the Blue Collar voters had when they voted for him, or Clinton, when the process accelerated in the 1990s. The Democrats over time lost the reliablility of the Blue Collar vote, and complacency has maintained their overtures to the Black Vote -but has the protest against it through the 2016 vote improved the lives of either community?

The process was shaped by the ways in which capitalism has changed the way goods are made, and where, and make no mistake, however the President or, in his book, John Bolton claim China has 'ripped off' the US, the deal was that Americans invested in China would also get their cut, to the tune of billions of dollars. One businessman's resentment that he was not allowed in to China ought not to shape US trade policy, as it has to the detriment of Black and Blue Collar workers, but as Americans charge too much for their labour, how else were corporations to make a profit? In nearly four years, how many jobs shipped overseas have been 'repatriated'?

Both parties in the US have been plugged in to the same circuits of capital that worship the financials rather than the people, and it may be in the 21st century the US needs to reform its modes of political representation, but even in 2015 when the video was made, as today, what does this man have to say about voter suppression, when Black Americans are often the target community?

Libertarian politics begs so many questions: government may be the obstacle to progress and individual liberty, but without it, who is going to employ the majority of African Americans who work for the Federal or State Government and their agencies? The public sector has grown because Government has taken on more responsibility for market operations than used to be the case, because markets don't deliver jobs as Libertarians claim, and one wonders what a Libertarian America would have, indeed, could have done to tackle Covid-19 if in the US everyone was 'on their own' to make the best of life on their own wits, skills and ambition with no health care, no Medicare, nothing?
And when he criticises Obama for doing nothing in his first term, what about health care? Plus the fact that when he became President the US was losing 800,000 jobs a month, which he reversed through the rescue of a banking system on the verge of collapse, creating the conditions for economic recovery, even if many of the 'new jobs' created were low-skilled, low-paid, zero-hours contacts etc, but 'a job is a job and better than nothing'- does this not merit some praise, given that Black Americans in 2008 were more likely to lose those jobs, and are mired in debt because of health care costs?

In assigning personal responsibility to collective problems, lies the pivot of controversy. Of course individuals can make their own way, Black or White, but they also rely on the network of support that the capitalist system provides, but do Black entrepreneurs get the same opportunities as the others? And if the political system is there to enable parties to change laws and regulations, have the Democrats been so bad for Black or all Americans with their policies on the environment, on voting rights, on social issues such as abortion and same-sex marriage? It is easy to be cynical about Democrat politicies and policies, but since 2015 the full frontal assault that the new 'Republican' party (if indeed it is Republican) has embarked on, has not only sought to reverse every policy made when Obama was President, it is doing so in large part because Republicans cannot and will not accept a Black Man in the White House.

And if a Libertarian replies, so what? Prove in some way that not having Federal Government and taxes benefits Black Americans the same as every other American, because unless Libertarian politics offers equal opportunities, it will fail, and fail with even worse consequences for the losers when there is no welfare, no safety net. Libertarian politics is a fantasy, the very real issues Black Americans have to deal with, many of which exist in other communities too (why do gangs exist where they exist?) are in some parts their own to deal with, but do not take place isolated from the US economy, at either the Federal or local level, and if Black Mayors rule over problem cities, is that because Democrats are inherently incompetent, that they just use their funds for themselves, or because the financial base of their administation is so weak in a culture where taxation is some sort of sin against human nature, rather than being the tool that invests in services and jobs?

The YouTube source of the video posted by Mr Fanti links to the one below, referring to Jason Riley and his book, which is quoted at the start saying:

'The sober truth is that the most important civil rights battles were fought and won 4 decades before the Obama Presidency'

-He forgot to add, 'But the war against those rights continued' -hard to believe that someone writing for the Wall St Journal is so ignorant of his own history, but maybe that is how he got his job? I guess he has never heard of the Cato Institute, the American Enterprise Institute, the Koch Bros, and associated people and groups determined to not only not accept the Civil Rights legislation of the 1960s, but as I write have lawsuits and campaigns to carry on reversing them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zorEMP8GxBA

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

Let me ask you a question,

What exactly makes Kayne a sellout?

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If this were a discussion about what makes someone a sellout to Black people I wouldn't offer an opinion out of respect.

I suppose the question I have is whether the idea of someone being considered a "sellout" assumes a particular role in society for members of the group they are presumed to have sold out. In that sense, I kind of have stayed away from similar terms even when they involve my own ethnic/religious group because I think they make assumptions about how Black people/Muslims/Gay men or women should act.

Another perspective would be that any time someone is called a "sellout" one might ask whether their behavior is only objectionable because they are a member of a particular minority group or whether it can be condemned in general terms. I would condemn Kanye's support of Trump in general terms, though I'm fairly extreme, in that I lose respect for people if I find they support Trump.

I think Trump has debased the country and our values and has done a lot to promote racism. It's difficult for me to take someone seriously if they honestly think he's good for this country.

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Originally Posted by broncofan

If this were a discussion about what makes someone a sellout to Black people I wouldn't offer an opinion out of respect.

I suppose the question I have is whether the idea of someone being considered a "sellout" assumes a particular role in society for members of the group they are presumed to have sold out. In that sense, I kind of have stayed away from similar terms even when they involve my own ethnic/religious group because I think they make assumptions about how Black people/Muslims/Gay men or women should act.

Another perspective would be that any time someone is called a "sellout" one might ask whether their behavior is only objectionable because they are a member of a particular minority group or whether it can be condemned in general terms. I would condemn Kanye's support of Trump in general terms, though I'm fairly extreme, in that I lose respect for people if I find they support Trump.

I think Trump has debased the country and our values and has done a lot to promote racism. It's difficult for me to take someone seriously if they honestly think he's good for this country.

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Its fair to disagree with someone if the politician they support goes against your own political views and you think said politician has been terrible at his job and has done many of things that Trump has done.

Its also fair to call someone a "sellout" if they indeed sold out or compromised on what they believed in for some type of financial gain. Some would say that as progressive and as social justice minded as the NBA is, they "sold out" when it came to criticizing China over their treatment of Hong Kong because of their business relationship with the country.

But what is not fair is to call a member of a particular minority group, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religion a "sellout" if they decide to have differing set of political views from what is the status quo. Black people are not monolithic. We all don't talk the same, come from same places, and sometimes don't share the same life experiences. So why should we be expected to all vote the same.

In all honesty, I find calling a black person a "sellout" more offensive then using the N word.

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

But what is not fair is to call a member of a particular minority group, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religion a "sellout" if they decide to have differing set of political views from what is the status quo. Black people are not monolithic. We all don't talk the same, come from same places, and sometimes don't share the same life experiences. So why should we be expected to all vote the same.

In all honesty, I find calling a black person a "sellout" more offensive then using the N word.

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WORD!!!

The problem is that the Mainstream Media only portrays the Black Democrats/Left - and the Mainstream Media DO NOT portray Independent and Libertarian Blacks.....(and only give little coverage to the Republican Blacks)
And thus the non-Black general public is getting a skewed and slanted perspective on the Black community

And yes, I am a Black male...

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

Let me ask you a question,

What exactly makes Kayne a sellout?

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Kayne West's support for Donald Trump, A person who called for the death penalty for the central park five {5 african-american and latino teenagers} who was accused and indicted for assault and rape of a 28 year white female jogger in 1989, and even though charges against them were vacated 13 years later,he still though they were guilty,created the birther movement in 2011 by claiming that Barack Obama wasn't born in the United States,even though he was,In 2017 called african-american athletes sons of bitches because they were kneeling during the national anthem,and protesting police brutality and racial injustice,referring to predominately african countries as shitholes, calling the black lives matter murial in front of his fifth avenue residence a symbol of hate,using tear gas,flashbang grenades,pepper spray and rubber bullets to disperse peaceful protesters so he can take a photo op in front of a church,calling confederate monuments magnificent and stoking fear and division on the daily basis on social media and other despicable acts he has done over the years.

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Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0

Kayne West's support for Donald Trump, A person who called for the death penalty for the central park five {5 african-american and latino teenagers} who was accused and indicted for assault and rape of a 28 year white female jogger in 1989, and even though charges against them were vacated 13 years later,he still though they were guilty,created the birther movement in 2011 by claiming that Barack Obama wasn't born in the United States,even though he was,In 2017 called african-american athletes sons of bitches because they were kneeling during the national anthem,and protesting police brutality and racial injustice,referring to predominately african countries as shitholes, calling the black lives matter murial in front of his fifth avenue residence a symbol of hate,using tear gas,flashbang grenades,pepper spray and rubber bullets to disperse peaceful protesters so he can take a photo op in front of a church,calling confederate monuments magnificent and stoking fear and division on the daily basis on social media and other despicable acts he has done over the years.

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Are you prepared to call all these people "sell-outs" as well then?

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Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0

Kayne West's support for Donald Trump, A person who called for the death penalty for the central park five {5 african-american and latino teenagers} who was accused and indicted for assault and rape of a 28 year white female jogger in 1989, and even though charges against them were vacated 13 years later,he still though they were guilty,created the birther movement in 2011 by claiming that Barack Obama wasn't born in the United States,even though he was,In 2017 called african-american athletes sons of bitches because they were kneeling during the national anthem,and protesting police brutality and racial injustice,referring to predominately african countries as shitholes, calling the black lives matter murial in front of his fifth avenue residence a symbol of hate,using tear gas,flashbang grenades,pepper spray and rubber bullets to disperse peaceful protesters so he can take a photo op in front of a church,calling confederate monuments magnificent and stoking fear and division on the daily basis on social media and other despicable acts he has done over the years.

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Is Jesse Jackson a Sell-Out too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5lcART6TTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNqKmnP9-M4

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Originally Posted by KnightHawk 2.0

Kayne West's support for Donald Trump, A person who called for the death penalty for the central park five {5 african-american and latino teenagers} who was accused and indicted for assault and rape of a 28 year white female jogger in 1989, and even though charges against them were vacated 13 years later,he still though they were guilty,created the birther movement in 2011 by claiming that Barack Obama wasn't born in the United States,even though he was,In 2017 called african-american athletes sons of bitches because they were kneeling during the national anthem,and protesting police brutality and racial injustice,referring to predominately african countries as shitholes, calling the black lives matter murial in front of his fifth avenue residence a symbol of hate,using tear gas,flashbang grenades,pepper spray and rubber bullets to disperse peaceful protesters so he can take a photo op in front of a church,calling confederate monuments magnificent and stoking fear and division on the daily basis on social media and other despicable acts he has done over the years.

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Yes we all know about Trump's history when it comes to blacks and other minorities. But if Kayne West or any other black person wants to continue to support him for their own personal reasons, then that's there right as an American. As for calling him a sellout, see my previous post:

But what is not fair is to call a member of a particular minority group, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religion a "sellout" if they decide to have differing set of political views from what is the status quo. Black people are not monolithic. We all don't talk the same, come from same places, and sometimes don't share the same life experiences. So why should we be expected to all vote the same.

Now I will say this. I don't think Kayne is serious about running for President. I mean this country is truly finished then if those are only three individuals that we could find to run for the most important position in the free world.

But if he is doing it as a favor for Trump and not for "altruistic" reasons, then he can go fuck off.

I agree with you that minorities should not have constraints on who they vote for or what parties they are expected to support.

In the case of Kanye, I do think supporting Trump will make it difficult for him to weigh in on civil rights issues without being called a hypocrite. Yesterday Donald Trump went on twitter to ask why Bubba Wallace wasn't apologizing and to imply Nascar's lower ratings were the result of them wanting to get rid of the Confederate flag. The racism is even more flagrant now than when he was running in 2016 and people's fatigue in dealing with it is clear.

I don't think Biden is an especially strong candidate but he has experience and is a like-able guy. As for Trump and Kanye, I'd say they're both megalomaniacs with an inflated sense of self-importance who overestimate their own intelligence. Even without ideology I would trust Biden to do a serious and competent job before Trump. In your cynicism about the candidates you maybe forget some of what makes Trump extraordinary and dangerous.

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

But what is not fair is to call a member of a particular minority group, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religion a "sellout" if they decide to have differing set of political views from what is the status quo. Black people are not monolithic. We all don't talk the same, come from same places, and sometimes don't share the same life experiences. So why should we be expected to all vote the same.

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Again, WORD!!!!
And like I said earlier, the general public is getting a skewed and slanted view of the Black community due to the pretty much ZERO reporting of Independent and Libertarian Blacks.....

And yes, I am a Black male....

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Again, WORD!!!!
And like I said earlier, the general public is getting a skewed and slanted view of the Black community due to the pretty much ZERO reporting of Independent and Libertarian Blacks.....
And yes, I am a Black male....

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There is a limit to what I can say about the US media as I am not plugged into it, and I do think there is scope for a broader debate about politics beyond the two-party dominance. I think your problem is that the Libertarian argument is academic and in practical terms close to worthless. It might have Rupert Murdoch as its champion, his attempt to recruit the 45th President to roll back the frontiers of Government, reduce taxes, and end welfare has proven to be a false promise: the 45th President has smothered American Government in a swamp of corruption and lies while increasing the volume of funds the Federal Govt pumps into the economy, where a Libertarian would not spend so much as a quarter.

Black or white, Libertarian ideas have a credibilty gap so in a way it is a pity they cannot be aired more in the media so that people can understand what nonsense it is. Rand Paul would be a delight, as his record shows -for a man who thinks Government should be all but aboished, he was very keen at one time to decide he should take his own initiatives on foreign policy with regard to US/Iran relations, leaving Bolton to refer to him, sarcastically as 'Secretary of State Paul'- the man should in theory not have a foreign policy at all. For Libertarians there are markets and individuals, and nothing else.
There are many ways Black Americans can improve their lives without being dependent on the State, yet so many Corporations depend on State support, one wonders why Black Entrepreneurs don't get the same tax holidays/sweetheart deals their competitors do -or maybe they do? I see that Kanye person has had a hand-out from the tax-payer in the form of a loan somewhere between $5-10 million, so maybe I just wrong.

Incidentally, and not of much relevance to you, here in the UK Paris Dennard has been on both the BBC-2 Newsnight programme and Channel 4 News a few times, defending the current administration, as both Channels do interviews supporters who are not elected officials.

Can I also point out the lack of Black senior officials in the US Government? If Black Republicans are to be admired, maybe they should get some of the top jobs, as happened with Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell? In the UK, two of the most senior positions in Government, Home Secretary and Chancellor of the Exchequer, are held by Asians (Priti Patel and Rishi Sunak, respectively), and we have had junior ministers with African ancesty -and in the Conservative Party! I don't rate them highly because I am not a Conservative, but when it comes to 'minority representation', why are US Conservatives so backward?

Could it be that the 45th President, having ridiculed Black people as 'stupid and lazy' -including the 44th President- just doesn't trust them with the responsibilities of high office?

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Originally Posted by Stavros

There is a limit to what I can say about the US media as I am not plugged into it, and I do think there is scope for a broader debate about politics beyond the two-party dominance. I think your problem is that the Libertarian argument is academic and in practical terms close to worthless. It might have Rupert Murdoch as its champion, his attempt to recruit the 45th President to roll back the frontiers of Government, reduce taxes, and end welfare has proven to be a false promise: the 45th President has smothered American Government in a swamp of corruption and lies while increasing the volume of funds the Federal Govt pumps into the economy, where a Libertarian would not spend so much as a quarter.

Black or white, Libertarian ideas have a credibilty gap so in a way it is a pity they cannot be aired more in the media so that people can understand what nonsense it is. Rand Paul would be a delight, as his record shows -for a man who thinks Government should be all but aboished, he was very keen at one time to decide he should take his own initiatives on foreign policy with regard to US/Iran relations, leaving Bolton to refer to him, sarcastically as 'Secretary of State Paul'- the man should in theory not have a foreign policy at all. For Libertarians there are markets and individuals, and nothing else.
There are many ways Black Americans can improve their lives without being dependent on the State, yet so many Corporations depend on State support, one wonders why Black Entrepreneurs don't get the same tax holidays/sweetheart deals their competitors do -or maybe they do? I see that Kanye person has had a hand-out from the tax-payer in the form of a loan somewhere between $5-10 million, so maybe I just wrong.

Incidentally, and not of much relevance to you, here in the UK Paris Dennard has been on both the BBC-2 Newsnight programme and Channel 4 News a few times, defending the current administration, as both Channels do interviews supporters who are not elected officials.

Can I also point out the lack of Black senior officials in the US Government? If Black Republicans are to be admired, maybe they should get some of the top jobs, as happened with Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell? In the UK, two of the most senior positions in Government, Home Secretary and Chancellor of the Exchequer, are held by Asians (Priti Patel and Rishi Sunak, respectively), and we have had junior ministers with African ancesty -and in the Conservative Party! I don't rate them highly because I am not a Conservative, but when it comes to 'minority representation', why are US Conservatives so backward?

Could it be that the 45th President, having ridiculed Black people as 'stupid and lazy' -including the 44th President- just doesn't trust them with the responsibilities of high office?

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Democrats also have a credibility gap as they have tried to deny and/or skew their developing of Jim Crow Laws and Segregation (which the latter Joe Biden supported). - "Nonsense" is just your opinion - and you don't speak for all.
The main stream media is dominated by Democrat based media so of course, the general public is going to a skewed view of Independents and Libertarians. Look at the mayor history of these 3 major cities that have been run into the ground; Detroit, Chicago, and Baltimore. All 3 have continuous decades of mayors from the Democrat party - and not one single Independent, Libertarian, or Republican. So as Eric July (the Black Libertarian) stated in the video, to blame the Republicans for the failures of these cities makes absolutely no sense. And as far as Independents are concerned, Ross Perot IMHO would have made an excellent US President.

While I'm NOT a Trump supporter, your last statement is completely incorrect when you look at the growing number of Black voters that have/had left the Democrat party and voting for Trump. But I don't blame you because as I continually say, the Main Stream US media does not show Independent/Libertarian/Conservatives which is why your last statement is incorrect - you have a slanted view (thanks to the main stream media) of the Black community. And an interesting side note. Whether you're for Trump or despise him, his Prison Reform Act GREATLY helped Black Americans and most recently, his restoration of funding to historically Black Colleges (that ironically, was slashed by the Obama administration) has also helped the Black community as well and ***could*** explain (in part), the reason of the increase in Black voters to Trump.

And 2 things I said in cased you glossed over them.
1) I said I'm not a Trump supporter
2) Democrat Tulsi Gabbard is a much better candidate (IMHO) than Joe Biden - hands down.

The Black community is also divided on what exactly BLM actually means - and if you've seen CNN, I happen to side with Terry Crews and NOT Don Lemon. Statistically speaking, 6 children under the age of 10 were shot and killed by other Black Americans this past weekend. Where is "our" outrage over this (these types of senseless killings by "us") that has gone on for DECADES?

I get the police brutality aspect of it but GUESS WHAT? Statistically speaking, I as a Black man have a much greater chance of being killed by another Black man than I do by law enforcement........So yes, I stand on Terry Crew's side....

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Originally Posted by Stavros

There is a limit to what I can say about the US media as I am not plugged into it,

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Oh and to conclude..."blackchubby38" said it best:
"Black people are not monolithic."

But yet the mainstream media that you view shows us as monolithic

#kaynein

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Originally Posted by Stavros

I think your problem is that the Libertarian argument is academic and in practical terms close to worthless.

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Covid-19 is the perfect demonstration of this. What would be the libertarian response? Let it rip and leave it to people to look after themselves?

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

Democrats also have a credibility gap as they have tried to deny and/or skew their developing of Jim Crow Laws and Segregation (which the latter Joe Biden supported). - "Nonsense" is just your opinion - and you don't speak for all.

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I think it is you who has the credibility gap. You seem to have overlooked the fact that Civil Rights legislation was implemented by a Democrat President and Congress, along with many other things that have happened since then. I'm surprised you didn't mention Abraham Lincoln.

It's one thing to be independent and make an effort to be open-minded. It's quite another thing to deliberately avoid acknowledging certain inconvenient truths as you have done consistently. Anyone who overlooks Trump's long history of racism and appealing to racism, such as documented in this article, is clearly making a concerted effort not to see certain things. https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/122708...racism-history

It's not so much what you say - it's what you avoid saying. As I've pointed out numerous times, you don't seem to have ever uttered a single negative word about Trump or the Republican Party on this forum. A true independent is willing to criticise both sides where it is warranted - as blackchubby does. You, sir, are a phoney independent.

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Originally Posted by filghy2

I think it is you who has the credibility gap. You seem to have overlooked the fact that Civil Rights legislation was implemented by a Democrat President and Congress, along with many other things that have happened since then.

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In addition to which that legislation was supported by many Republican members of House and Senate, which is why I think the 1960s is the pivotal decade in US politics in recent times.

[QUOTE=MrFanti;1935412]
Democrats also have a credibility gap as they have tried to deny and/or skew their developing of Jim Crow Laws and Segregation (which the latter Joe Biden supported). -
--One one level you are right, as history shows that Democrats in the South maintained segregation for most of the 100 years that passed between the end of the Civil War and the Civil Rights laws of 1965. You probably know that in the 1860s Democrats in the South wanted a Federal Slave Regulation Code rather than abolition, and that its rejection by Northern Democrats illustrated their fatal weakness. But you also know that over that 100 years the Republican and Democrat parties changed fundamentally, mostly because of the industrial revolution that transformed the geography of the lower 48, and that just as the Republicans became associated with the rich of Wall St, so with Roosevellt the Democrats became the party of blue collar workers, thus attracting Black Americans in the age when they had work, and crucially, the dignity of work. But crucial too is the fact that as the economy recovered, the Democrats were able to retain their support though I admit I don't know if more Black Americans voted for Eisenhower than had voted Republican before.
The killer for the Democrats, is that when LBJ embarked on his reforms in the 1960s, almost en masse the 'Dixiecrats' turned Red, and the South became a 'safe haven' for the Republicans. It is a fascinating transformation that begs questions about political culture in the US. You have the moral compromise in which Democrats accepted segregation as a 'fact of life' while supportig the emerging civil rights movement: the moral support undermined by practical inaction prior to LBJ.
You have the vicious opposition in the South to JFK as a Catholic, so that on hearing the news of his assassination, children in a Texas school broke into cheers and applause. You have, consequent to Civil Rights law, not just a growing and systemic opposition to all that rights legislation provided, but a growth in so-called 'Evangelical Christianity' which buttressed the foundational idea that Christianity is 'the very breath of American history'.
Allen Matusow, in The Unraveling of America (1984) provides a deep and sharply critical account of the 'Liberalism' of the 1960s that helps explain the ways in which the South changed, in which the issues unleashed in the 1960s so polarised opinion across the country, it was only a matter of time before someone like Gingrich could weaponise it, and make bi-partisan decision-making a form of treason -to his idea of Republican virtue.

The main stream media is dominated by Democrat based media so of course, the general public is going to a skewed view of Independents and Libertarians.
-What is the mainstream media, and does it include Fox News? I don't know a lot about it, but it seems to me that more and more Americans, probably a majority under the age of 30, don't watch it, and get their news from social media or sites like The Daily Beast or even Breitbart, which is not so much a news feed as a propaganda tool for extremists.
You are probably right with regard to the exposure of Lbertarian ideas in the media, but is it the case that MSM regularly interviews the Marxists who do want a revolution in the USA?

Look at the mayor history of these 3 major cities that have been run into the ground; Detroit, Chicago, and Baltimore. All 3 have continuous decades of mayors from the Democrat party - and not one single Independent, Libertarian, or Republican. So as Eric July (the Black Libertarian) stated in the video, to blame the Republicans for the failures of these cities makes absolutely no sense. And as far as Independents are concerned, Ross Perot IMHO would have made an excellent US President.
-Yes, but. What Detroit, Chicago and Baltimore share is their experience of industrial capitalism since the 1960s, summed up in the loss of blue collar jobs. In part due to automation in the motor industry, in part to over-capacity in the steel industry, the truth is there never were 'jobs for life' in those three cities, and as the city revenues declined so the struggle to provide services in education as well as maintaining jobs has hit these cities hard.
The key factor has been an aversion to taxation, with the consequence that Democrats are just as scared of taxes as Republican claim they don't need them. New York City was in crisis in the 1960s and 1970s when companes moved to New Jersey to avoid paying city taxes, but revived when Globalization made New York the epicentre of a financial revolution that made so much money the city could attract companies back without the fear of punitive taxation- throw in the demand for quality accommodation in Manhattan and you can see how the Borough was transformed. But in this sense, New York is blessed because of Wall St, where Baltimore is cursed because its source of jobs, in Steel, in the Dockyards, evaporated between the 1960s and 2008 -and with the continuing growth of AI and the social impact of Covid 19, the question now is whether cities can survive as they have before, or if the epicentre of State economies is going to move to the suburbs where people work from home.

And if you take away the dignity of work, what is left to sustain the person's valuation of themselves?

And what happened in Kansas when the Republican Governor decided to slash taxes? Within six months the state was almost bankrupt. And if the three cities you put in the dock have had Democrat Mayors that have failed to revive the economy to 1950s levels, why are so many Red states now dependent on Government contracts in the Defence industry, or loans to the tune of $12-14 billion a year to compensate farmers who have lost their jobs owing to tariffs on China? You are homing on Democrats when the villain in all this is, as usual, capitalism. Where is the honest critique of capitalism as it currently functions in the US?

While I'm NOT a Trump supporter, your last statement is completely incorrect when you look at the growing number of Black voters that have/had left the Democrat party and voting for Trump. But I don't blame you because as I continually say, the Main Stream US media does not show Independent/Libertarian/Conservatives which is why your last statement is incorrect - you have a slanted view (thanks to the main stream media) of the Black community. And an interesting side note. Whether you're for Trump or despise him, his Prison Reform Act GREATLY helped Black Americans and most recently, his restoration of funding to historically Black Colleges (that ironically, was slashed by the Obama administration) has also helped the Black community as well and ***could*** explain (in part), the reason of the increase in Black voters to Trump.
-Not a cop out but I don't know enough about these issues to debate them, though I believe Obama was the first President to actually visit a Federal penitentiary, and was concerned about the volume of prisoners incarcerated for trivial crimes, with many prisoners there because of the Clinton era 'reforms' that created a permanent criminal caste, unable to shake off their convictions to vote or get a job.

The Black community is also divided on what exactly BLM actually means - and if you've seen CNN, I happen to side with Terry Crews and NOT Don Lemon. Statistically speaking, 6 children under the age of 10 were shot and killed by other Black Americans this past weekend. Where is "our" outrage over this (these types of senseless killings by "us") that has gone on for DECADES?
-I can't comment on this as I don't watch CNN and don't know who Terry Crews and Don Lemon are.

I get the police brutality aspect of it but GUESS WHAT? Statistically speaking, I as a Black man have a much greater chance of being killed by another Black man than I do by law enforcement........So yes, I stand on Terry Crew's side....
-Do you not have an even greater chance of dying in a road traffic accident? Maybe it is time to bite the bullet on the 2nd Amendment and begin the agonising process of taking away the guns....

As for my last comment, you have not in fact addressed it: if the Republican Party has done so much for Black Americans, why are so few Black Republicans to be seen in Congress or the White House, compared to GW Bush who promoted Powell and Rice? There are many issues we have not touched on, and I do accept that it is facile to pigeon-hole Black Americans, or indeed, White Americans, but I feel that since the 1960s, the political culture of your country has embraced divisive ideologies that have deep roots, because Race has so permeated American life it is all but impossible to dilute it.
It is tragic, because beyond the cruelty, the hate and the mind-numbing ignorance, there are still so many things you should celebrate in the US. As I think I said in another thread, watching both the film Hidden Figures, and a documentary on NASA is to be reminded of what can be done when Americans produce something greater than themselves, when they respect each other as themselves.

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Originally Posted by Stavros

As for my last comment, you have not in fact addressed it: if the Republican Party has done so much for Black Americans, why are so few Black Republicans to be seen in Congress or the White House, compared to GW Bush who promoted Powell and Rice?.

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These are choices made by each individual POTUS that I can't answer. As far as congress is concerned, I would say that in part, it's due to the mis-information that many Black Americans have.

But remember, whether you agree or disagree with the current POTUS, the Prison Reform Act and restoration of funding has greatly helped Black Americans - and to be brutally honest, it amazes me that the Obama administration did NOT implement Prison Reform.

Now here's the kicker.

Under the Obama Administration, the LGBTQ and Hispanic communities definitely benefitted WAY MORE than they have under the Trump administration.

HOWEVER...

Under the Trump Administration, the Black community has benefitted more than they did under the Obama administration.

Now let's let's plug in the Black Church - which has been a huge framework within the Black community (despite MANY people on this forum mocking religion - if you want to understand Black America, then you have to understand the role of the Black Church within Black America)

And finally to conclude, more food for thought.
This video represent an aspect of Black America that you will not see via Democrat dominated mainstream media - and thus I'll continue to say that unfortunately, the result continues to be that folks like you continue to get as skewed and slanted view of the Black American community...

As "blackchubby38" said..."we are not monolithic" - And I'll we continually are portrayed as monolithic and that simply isn't the case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F44ZKJ8FVJw

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Originally Posted by Stavros

As for my last comment, you have not in fact addressed it: if the Republican Party has done so much for Black Americans, why are so few Black Republicans to be seen in Congress or the White House, compared to GW Bush who promoted Powell and Rice? There are many issues we have not touched on, and I do accept that it is facile to pigeon-hole Black Americans, or indeed, White Americans, but I feel that since the 1960s, the political culture of your country has embraced divisive ideologies that have deep roots, because Race has so permeated American life it is all but impossible to dilute it.

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Addendum: Here's some additional food for thought.
The Black Democrat community LOVES Malcolm X - and of course, its understandably why.

HOWEVER, once again, a VERY IMPORTANT belief of Malcom X is conveniently ignored and/or omitted that if Blacks truly knew about and understood, then you might see more Black Independents/Libertarians/Republicans in congress.
Lucky for us, digital media has it preserved.

Now just listen to this speech by Malcom X....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7QxccW72qU

I can't know for certain why there aren't more Black Republicans. It is possible that having an attorney general in Jeff Sessions who wanted to prosecute universities with affirmative action programs for civil rights infractions when white supremacist groups are rampant in this country is one reason. Maybe because the Republican President wants to preserve Confederate statues, has come out in defense of the Confederate flag, and dogwhistles anti-Black racism. BTW one can disagree with affirmative action without thinking we should prosecute universities for civil rights infractions for trying to make their student bodies more diverse. That said, I have no criticism for Black Republicans that I wouldn't have for Republicans generally. I'm just pointing out that I'm not overly surprised Republicans are not popular with most minority groups.

I just want to finish by saying I called Kanye a megalomaniac. He's worse than that. He's a complete fool. https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/st...23740780236801

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Originally Posted by broncofan

I can't know for certain why there aren't more Black Republicans. It is possible that having an attorney general in Jeff Sessions who wanted to prosecute universities with affirmative action programs for civil rights infractions when white supremacist groups are rampant in this country is one reason. Maybe because the Republican President wants to preserve Confederate statues, has come out in defense of the Confederate flag, and dogwhistles anti-Black racism. BTW one can disagree with affirmative action without thinking we should prosecute universities for civil rights infractions for trying to make their student bodies more diverse. That said, I have no criticism for Black Republicans that I wouldn't have for Republicans generally. I'm just pointing out that I'm not overly surprised Republicans are not popular with most minority groups.

I just want to finish by saying I called Kanye a megalomaniac. He's worse than that. He's a complete fool. https://twitter.com/MollyJongFast/st...23740780236801

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I would say it goes back to the Malcolm X speech in that Black Americans simply ignored and/or didn't listen to Malcolm X

Basically, Malcom X is saying that "we" don't have to vote Republican - but we should not vote Democrat like a bunch of lemmings every election.
Case in point are cities/mayor issues of cities 'run into the ground' as Libertarian Eric July stated and I said, the election data of Chicago, Detroit, and Baltimore prove both X's and July's points.

And to be honest, Black America wants to get more action rather than mouth from the Democratic Party, then IMHO, Black America should in mass for the next Independent candidate.

HOWEVER, there are elements within the BLM movement that want to establish a separate "BLM" political party. IF this happens (a separate BLM political party), then my guess is that you'd see the Democrats in full panic mode and actually start doing things rather than mouthing things.

That being said, there are more Black Republicans amongst the people/voters than what a lot of people think & that number is slowly growing...

I think the main reason why there aren't more black Republicans is because the party is primarily responsible for the one thing that has had a negative impact on the black and Latino community for over 40 years. Something that has been complete and abject failure. Despite that failure, it is still going on today.

That would be the war on drugs. It started with Nixon, but kicked in the high gear under both Reagan and H.W. Bush. You can argue that it helped contribute to the fractured relationship between the police and the black community. It led to the creation of unfair prison sentencing laws. It caused a domino effect that led to the passing of the 1994 Crime Bill. Which as I have said before, parts of which that I don't have a problem with. But that law was definitely passed with the war on drugs in mind.

Also while I'm all in favor of the Prison Reform being passed. Lets be perfectly honest about something. The main reason why some Republicans have had an epiphany on the war on drugs is because of the impact the opioid epidemic has had on their base. Or more importantly, the children and the grandchildren of their base.

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Originally Posted by MrFanti

I would say it goes back to the Malcolm X speech in that Black Americans simply ignored and/or didn't listen to Malcolm X

Basically, Malcom X is saying that "we" don't have to vote Republican - but we should not vote Democrat like a bunch of lemmings every election.
Case in point are cities/mayor issues of cities 'run into the ground' as Libertarian Eric July stated and I said, the election data of Chicago, Detroit, and Baltimore prove both X's and July's points.

And to be honest, Black America wants to get more action rather than mouth from the Democratic Party, then IMHO, Black America should in mass for the next Independent candidate.

HOWEVER, there are elements within the BLM movement that want to establish a separate "BLM" political party. IF this happens (a separate BLM political party), then my guess is that you'd see the Democrats in full panic mode and actually start doing things rather than mouthing things.

That being said, there are more Black Republicans amongst the people/voters than what a lot of people think & that number is slowly growing...

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I think for the most part Democrats have done things for the black community. But what they have done and the impact it has had, is whole different discussion for another day.

When it comes to BLM, I don't see them forming their own party. What I can see happening is that between them and the Democratic Socialists of America taking over the Democratic party and forcing the moderates and even some liberals out of it. I think this will especially happen if Biden, a candidate that they didn't want in the first place loses to Trump in November.

While I think in short term that would be bad for the country, in the long term it might be want this country needs Maybe the moderates from both parties will come together and give people who are sick and tired of partisan politics a third option at the polls.

We are effectively a two party nation. If you don't vote Democratic, then you're handing the election to the Republicans. If you want representation you've got to take over a major party or at least establish your power within a major party. That's what evangelists did, what tea-baggers did, what gun nuts did and what Trump exploited. It may be harder to do in the Democratic Party because it's larger and more diverse. Than again maybe that'll make it easier. Liberals voting third party is always bad news.

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Originally Posted by blackchubby38

What I can see happening is that between them and the Democratic Socialists of America taking over the Democratic party and forcing the moderates and even some liberals out of it. I think this will especially happen if Biden, a candidate that they didn't want in the first place loses to Trump in November.

While I think in short term that would be bad for the country, in the long term it might be want this country needs Maybe the moderates from both parties will come together and give people who are sick and tired of partisan politics a third option at the polls.

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I generally agree with you here (not completely but I see where you're coming from)
And I'll add that the reason why both Trump and Sanders rose to power is due to BOTH parties being sick of 'partisan politics' (like you stated) - and additionally, BOTH parties being tired of establishment politicians.
Trump is not a Republican just like Sanders is not a Democrat - each just picked a side that would give them the best chance of winning.