Love and Lust

Way to go, McManaman, now you've pissed me off again :!:

heh, just kidding, you seem like a decent enough guy.

Here's the situation: Most TS are not looking to live as advocates for universal gender equality, and why would they? Most simply want to be accepted in their gender corrected state. A TS woman would want to simply be treated as any other woman in society.

And as far as porn being "funny money", I know people here where I work who wash dishes for a living, and they get paid shit for it. Nothing wrong with washing dishes, someone has to do it, but it's a pretty lousy, demeaning occupation. Being a adult video star is, I imagine, very fun, satisfying, somewhat glamerous, and lucrative as well.

If you're questioning the morality of porn, I've asked you before, how did you run across a porn star in the first place? You were looking for "dirty" pictures. Just get over it, dirty pictures are fun to look at.

And don't try that old "I'm doing research for a college paper" trick again, no body bought that the first time.

:P

Too many mosquitos in the air.. It's the worst thing i know.

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Originally Posted by McManaman

Too many mosquitos in the air.. It's the worst thing i know.

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Is that what those are? I thought they were butterflies. . .

heh.

I really gotta stop with that sort of stuff, I'm starting to even make myself swoon. :claps

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Originally Posted by whatsupwithat

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Originally Posted by Vicki Richter

I am going to argue a few points. The reason gay guys can have a happy relationship is because in most cases they aren't sex workers. It isn't a societal stigma. As I said before, TS outside of the industry have often had happy healthy relationships. This removes jealousy and a whole variety of human emotions which can take place.

I hate hearing, "society isn't ready". I also hate hearing that girls can't do anything but sex work. Get an education and there are companies who want you to work for them because you help them fill certain quota's which show they hire a diverse workforce. The fact is, most sex workers I know have no desire to get out of that work. Why should they? What other job can girls (or almost anyone) pull down $5-$10k on a good week for doing something which sometimes is fun. I know girls in their 40's still escorting and doing pretty well. Someday that drops off and it's a good idea to have a backup plan beforehand.

Maybe society isn't ready for the big baratone, chip on their shoulder, unpassable, angry transsexual to come into the workforce demanding instant acceptance and equality. However, graciousness can go a long way. I don't knock anyone for doing sex work. It's great work for making money quickly which can finance surgery - which can greatly enhance the quality of life for a TS. It can also finance formal education. I don't think you see a lot of people with bachelors degrees pan handling.

Anyway, the discussion is whether TS can have a happy relationship, and I say, of course. However, any sex worker, TS or otherwise are in for a long difficult road if that is a goal.

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I respectfully disagree, Vicki.

I am not knocking sex workers at all. In fact, I'm all for legalization of it...it would end much of the misery, stigma, and sickness related to it.

And while you may hate hearing "society isn't ready", it's not. In fact in your first paragraph above you made very clear what my main point is. Society accepts gay men and women as they are part of the normal machinations of it. Every single person out there knows or works with someone who is gay. On the flip side, not every single person out there knows a transsexual. So, when they go to the porn store, or the internet, or look at escort ads, many times this is their only contact with transsexuals.

So, yeah, society isn't ready to open its doors because their main point of reference for transsexuals is porn and sex work. Now, if it was politicians, activists, scientists, actively creative people that were the transsexuals (and there are many who are these things) people saw all the time, it would go a long way towards making society ready to accept.

Again, not knocking sex work or porn...all for it. But where's the balance? Where?

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Eleanor Roosevelt stated that "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".

As a transwoman of color I do not allow society to dictate what I can or can not acheive.

As a Black person growing up during the heyday of the Civil rights movement I remember vividly the struggle for our right to control our freedom and destinies.

As a woman, I am filled with pride at the progress that the Women's Liberation Movement has afforded us.

In my lifetime I have seen gays, many of the nations of the Third World, the handi-able, and many others gain their rights and their freedoms.

However, with transpeople, we are a people that freedom, equality, dignity, and opportunity seems to have forgotten.

Why is this?

Yes, I will concede that society discriminates against transpeople in many ways.

But unfortunately for many trans-people, the only thing that being 'trans' means to them, is 'sucking and fucking' and looking good and other material values.

In a perfect world, respect and equal opportunity should be birthrights. They should not be something that you have to fight for.

However the reality is that people will not respect you if you do not respect yourself or act in a respectful manner.

A true story,
I live in Albany ny 3 hrs from 2 hrs from nyc I enjoy the cpmpany of the hottest ladys on the planet so i happen to go to trans hangouts . well one weekend a year or two ago i went to boston to see one of my most fav girls. I went out on fridday the date was set for sat but i like to go to jacques its has super shows and one of my fave performers was there that night.i got there around 9 had a drink sat back and relaxed after a long drive. me not expecting to hook up and quite tired order a drink for both my best friends, ( one for both hands) here is where it all started.
As i sit enjoying my green bottles i happen to look up an see the finest girl in the club lookin me right in the eye, me bieng a bit shy i look over my sholder thinkin she was lookin at someone else, as i turn around shes standin next to me ! I ask her if i may buy her a drink and give her my seat. we had small talk and seem to hit it off. she told me she was a workin girl at witch time i told her i was not lokkin for a workin girl , to my suprise she says good ! i have tonight off care to join me at my place....

This is just the start of what was a 1 yr relationship, i will finish it if anyone cares to hear it but it like most has no happy ending .

Arc Angel, please go on with your story because it goes to the heart of the original posting of this thread.

Whatupwiththat wrote:

"Society accepts gay men and women as they are part of the normal machinations of it. Every single person out there knows or works with someone who is gay."

I have to disagree with that. Society is becoming more accepting of Gays but total acceptance is still a very long way off. Case in point; HA forum, itself.

Well, to be honest, gay male culture doesn't want to be totally assimilated by the straight world. I'm not sure what's up with the lesbian scene, and bisexuals just kinda blend in.

None of these particular social circles really have anything to do with TS girls (TS guys, I have no information on).

Case in point: The club I work at became a bastion for the gay male scene back in the 70's, those guys apparently rocked out with their cocks out for a couple decades (primarily just because of the name of the place, which is ironic because it use to be a straight burlesque joint, "gay" just meant "fun" back in the day I guess).

Right about the time I started working there drag queens were all the rage. Our club started drawing in a more mainstream, straight crowd. The gay guys rebelled and started all kinds of shit with us, made numerous attempts on various fronts to try to shut us down.

Why? I have no idea. Gay men complain that they aren't accepted in mainstream clubs, then when the mainstream enters one of "their" clubs, they flip out and run away.

It's a bit silly. I try not to think about it too much, but then again I'm not gay. I have nothing against gay guys and count many gay men as friends, but they just seem to have their own thing going on.

Moral of the story: some people don't want acceptance. They want to maintain a seperate niche community. I have no problem with that, but personally I prefere to hover above the drama.

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Originally Posted by yodajazz

Arc Angel, please go on with your story because it goes to the heart of the original posting of this thread.

Whatupwiththat wrote:

"Society accepts gay men and women as they are part of the normal machinations of it. Every single person out there knows or works with someone who is gay."

I have to disagree with that. Society is becoming more accepting of Gays but total acceptance is still a very long way off. Case in point; HA forum, itself.

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Oh, you brought up a whole new issue. Yeah, there are alot. :)

As much as LGBT is synonymous with a movement or community, the "T" part of that, not even to mention the "B", is hardly accorded the same power within that movement and community due to longstanding bias'. Now, some of that is because of spite, some of misunderstanding, some of ignorance. And the lesbian community has come a lot farther in accepting and working with thier FTM trans brothers, than the Gay community has in accepting and working with their MTF trans sisters.

This is something my trans-activist friends discuss a lot. Are they really a part of the lesbian and gay community or are they something totally seperate?

What I'd like to see is the same strength through numbers and voice with the trans community that I see with the gay and lesbian communities.

is this possible? Like someone said before...change comes from within.

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Originally Posted by peggygee

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There are indeed sites, venues, and techniques for meeting transwomen who are looking for LTRs.

But gentlemen for the most part, you are 'looking for love' in mostly all 'the wrong places' to paraphrase the old Waylon Jennings' song.

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If there are better places than this, I'd like to find out more about them.

For me, I see three facets to the issue of having a LTR with a TS woman.

1) Finding someone who is physically attractive (not a model, just nice) and feminine and in transition or non op.

A qualifier: For me a passable TS who has had SRS is out because she would be no different in terms of social acceptance or interpersonal relationship-wise than a barren or post menopausal GG IMHO.

Now, assuming she has the pretty pre-op thing going for her, she's probably already just a few Dr. visits away from having SRS. But let's assume I met her during that window... here in the heartland...and she goes for me; an average, decent-looking guy.

I like my odds better playing texas no-limit.

2) Finding someone who is all of the previous and not an escort
My "poppa" used to say, "You cain't turn a ho into a housewife". I've heard variations on this theme such as "There are some things that if you sell, you can never get back". It might sound harsh or judgemental, and I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule, but in general, I think these sentiments are worth heeding.

Ah yes, and by the way, without escorting, how is she going to afford the transition into a passable, reasonably attractive lady? Is she independently wealthy? Is she a corporate powerhouse? Genetics?

I like my odds better playing tri-state powerball.

3) She likes me for M-E
She's not a "sugar orphan" looking for a new daddy warbucks. Again, I'm just the "black" guy next door. (That in and of itself is scary for some) I'm not a bodybuilder like Megabody or highly intellectual like Quinn. I'm not super rich and with the sea of guys willing to shout whatever a girl wants to hear, how can I expect to be heard?

I like my odds better playing McDonalds monopoly.

At the same time, hope costs nothing.

By being here there is the astronmically small possibility that some fecking TS girl with a happy smile and a big booty might look at my avatar and think "Hey, I remember that nintendo game and this guy doesn't seem completely emotionally retarded, I'm hot and I'll introduce myself via a private message!"

Then again I like my odds better waiting for space aliens to beam intergalactic porn onto my laptop.

But i don't know of a better way to meet a TS girl. At least here, if I don't meet her, I can enjoy the pics and get some good info on the TS community.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Vicki.
However, that begs the question, where do transexual women go to relax and meet men who would like to know them in other than just a sexual way. I know that theremust have been some at Vapor, it is just hard to spearated them from their possee (no pun intended). If they dance together, sit together, the music booming ( and the music is good there, thank whoever the DJ id) how do you at least talk to them. But, then again, this is not so much different that meeting genetic women at a club.
So, back to my question, what other venues are there?
Is there a website which is more geared to social events, rather than parties?
Somewhere where TG and men who like them can chat in private or public, but chat abou tthings other than sex?
Can anyone suggest such a place?
Thanks

btw, I top, so, if you want to meet for a drink if y our in NYC, let me know :)