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Re: Fuck the Police State
I call it hysterical chromatography; i.e. the use of condescending hysterical posts to separate out the various elements in the mix.
We know know with crystal clarity that Tempest wants to overthrow the government (preferably but necessarily non-violently), the_unnatural is definitely against violent overthrow and My-my-my quite definitely doesn't think the U.S. is a police state.
I'm just wondering, if someone posts one anti-police diatribe after another in a thread entitled "Fuck the Police State", what they think the takeaway message would be?
Thanks for the vote of confidence Fred. I'm outta here and hitting the beaches for the couple of weeks. Have fun while I'm gone.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
We're all fucking out of order. As the upper crust say, "Toodles."
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Enjoy the beach...knock em dead in your bikini.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
Please note post 191 is a response to post 190 as post 193 is a response to 192. Also note 189 counters any allegations that we're an emerging police state. 157 addresses the government takeover that some here have been advocating as a way of ending this police state.
In regard to post 192 and the note in 189... Sorry too hard to follow - you wouldnt happen to have a power point or flow chart of that?
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Re: Fuck the Police State
I want a government For and By the people - a duty which this one seems to have lost all interest in - I want my vote to have meaning, I want the power to return to the people.
And I dont want my local sheriff to be driving around in a Mine Resistant Freaking TANK.
Do you have land mines where you live Trish? - I dont...
The excuse is we have people coming out of the military who know how to build IED's - first off we fucking trained them for that so what this says is we dont trust our own soldiers - secondly Like you need to be trained for that - there are actually books on this in the public library - its called history of warfare and weaponry - these are not top secret concepts.
My take away message is in the title - I think I was rather clear on where I stood from step one.
As American military forces return from Iraq and Afghanistan, one Indiana police station is benefiting from a mine-resistant vehicles once used to tour the war zone to combat a new breed of criminal with military training.
'When I first started we really didn’t have the violence that we see today,' Sgt. Dan Downing of the Morgan County Sheriff’s Department told FOX 59 'The weaponry is totally different now that it was in the beginning of my career, plus, you have a lot of people who are coming out of the military that have the ability and knowledge to build IEDs and to defeat law enforcement techniques.'
Roughly $4.3 billion worth of military property has been handed over to local and state agencies since 1990, according to the Law Enforcement Support Office.
Scroll down for video
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...80_634x426.jpg
+2
This $650,000 Mine Resistant Vehicle once patrolled the war zones of Afghanistan before ending up with Indiana law enforcement
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
I call it hysterical chromatography; i.e. the use of condescending hysterical posts to separate out the various elements in the mix.
We know know with crystal clarity that Tempest wants to overthrow the government (preferably but necessarily non-violently), the_unnatural is definitely against violent overthrow and My-my-my quite definitely doesn't think the U.S. is a police state.
I'm just wondering, if someone posts one anti-police diatribe after another in a thread entitled "Fuck the Police State", what they think the takeaway message would be?
Thanks for the vote of confidence Fred. I'm outta here and hitting the beaches for the couple of weeks. Have fun while I'm gone.
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Talk to people in St. Louis and what you find is they do not believe we live in a police state, but rather they believe the local police have prejudicial elements and that minorities are highly underrepresented in the force.
This complaint is rather universal throughout the U.S. I mentioned in this thread before that I and many I know have been harassed for driving while black and walking in the wrong neighborhood while black.
People across the U.S. have also noted (as this thread does) the militarization of the police. What they mean by this is not the militarization of the police hierarchy, nor its modus operandi nor the militarization of our domestic governments (i.e. we do not live in a police state, nor a budding police state) but rather the militarization of the police refers to the militarization of police equipment. Police departments now have vehicles armored against IEDs, military assault weapons, and military style personal armor. We’ve discussed in this thread the reasons behind this.
1 Historically this build up reaches back at least into the 80’s and 90’s war against drugs. At that time Congress felt that police department needed armor and arms to fight and defend against violent drug cartels. Since then there have been grants to police departments for the acquisition of arms and armor.
2 This program has been modernized and rebooted after 9-11 in a paranoid reaction against terrorism. Anyone who watched their TV’s during the Boston Marathon bombing has seen the result of this militarization. In addition to grants the Pentagon now transfers no longer used military equipment to local police departments. Police departments say, “We don’t really need a truck hardened against artillery shells and IEDs but its free and we do need a truck impervious to bullets, so yeah, we’ll take it.” As we withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan (lol) more of this equipment will become available.
3 This build up of arms also corresponds to the build up of arms in the citizenry. I think now every State has passed concealed carry. We see citizens in the news who carry M16s and other assault weapons just to openly taunt police. The data shows that the police have the citizenry well out-armed. Nevertheless, the arming of the citizenry has made the police dangerously jumpy. They clearly need better training.
Arms and testosterone are a dangerous mix regardless of whether the testosterone is in uniform or Walmart camo. I am not in favor of the militarization of the police nor the citizenry. I would favor a cut back on grants to the police for the acquisition of arms and a total cut of the Pentagon transfer program.
More importantly police departments have to become more heterogeneous. They need to be representative of and understanding of and sensitive to the populations they serve. Police academies need to do more than just open their doors to academies. They need to recruit minorities and remake themselves into organizations a minority person would want to join.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Quote:
Originally Posted by
trish
Talk to people in St. Louis and what you find is they do not believe we live in a police state.
Proof or it is just conjecture
Who talked to these people? you ?
who's been saying this?
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The Militarization of U.S. Police: Finally Dragged Into the Light by the Horrors of Ferguson:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...rors-ferguson/
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Hey, where the fuck is Natina? We need a narrative here! Should all cops be outfitted with cameras?
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Re: Fuck the Police State
"...if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me." - http://www.washingtonpost.com/postev...-challenge-me/
"A more informed bottom line would go a little more something like this: when cops armed like an invading army force observers from Amnesty International to their knees, at gunpoint, they aren't enforcing the law, they are breaking it. They are criminals, they should lose their badges and they should be sued. They should not get to kill people without trial for walking aggressively." - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-...p_ref=politics
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Re: Fuck the Police State
And meanwhile in Iceland...
Iceland grieves after police kill a man for the first time in its history:
http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-0...me-its-history
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Seen on Tumblr:
Please note: “everyone who works retail, admin, or labor” is pretty much everyone. I can’t remember the last time I worked somewhere without “security” cameras that monitored employees.
I’m having a good laugh right now because our associates just got collectively reprimanded for leaning on the counters during 8 hour shifts on their feet, because it isn’t “professional” looking. So apparently they can put up with a camera over their shoulder to make sure they do their jobs correctly, but a cop with a gun cant?
The people in retail get reprimanded for leaning on the counter, and yet a cop can execute someone and not even be arrested.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
does anyone know if there is a colour/racial undetone to the deaths of unarmed suspects especially teens? Is it mainly white cops who are perceived to be trigger happy? what are the stats for white cops shooting unarmed whites? or black cops shooting unarmed whites? or black cops killing unarmed blacks?
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Channel 4 news has produced a 'FactCheck' which delves into the stats that are available, and it makes grim reading, even if one balances out some of the figures, for example 93% of Black Americans are killed by other Black Americans -but then 84% of White Americans are killed by other White Americans, because in both categories the murders are related to incidents involving family friends or people known to each other in some capacity.
Numerically, more White Americans are killed by law enforcement, but if you then calculate the percentages, Black Americans as a proportion of the whole population are more likely to be murdered by LE than other groups--
Divide the deaths by the average population and there were more than three black deaths at police hands per million people compared to about one in a million for whites.
The FBI also has some figures on this but it is very incomplete, with only a fraction of America’s 17,000 law enforcement agencies submitting data, so the numbers should probably be seen as the bare minimum.
We haven’t been furnished with the original data by the feds, so we’re relying on secondhand reports from the US media.
Vox.com says there were 426 “felons killed by police” in 2012, and 31 per cent of the victims were black – a disproportionately high percentage, and very similar to the Bureau of Justice figures.
The website ProPublica also looks at FBI figures but concentrates on young men aged 15 to 19 and finds that black people in this age group are 21 times more likely to be killed by the police.
When it was white officers who did the killing, the casualties were black nearly half (46 per cent) the time.
Finally, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention collect figures for deaths caused by “legal intervention”, which includes police killings but leaves out executions.
From 2010 to 2012, black people were two to three times more likely to be killed by legal intervention.
Full link is here-
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...d-police/19423
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Re: Fuck the Police State
I'm behind the curve and see that this post I made in the other thread was more appropriate here:
Here in my city police killed a 12 year old, with a toy (soft air) gun, three days ago. I guess he was too young to have 2nd amendment rights. And too old to be playing with toys. That awkward age, they say sometimes.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-boy/19471925/
Update: Most of the incident was captured on video. Apparently the kid did wave it around and point at people earlier, but when the police arrived he had it his waistband. He did not raise his hands when ordered by the police. Speculation, is that me may have wanted to show it to the police. The police already had their weapons drawn. There have been protests here in the city. But the strategy from the the city, has been to let the people vent. And they have gone home after the protest with no property damage.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
And the video released show police shot and killed the 12yo boy 2 seconds after arriving on scene - TWO....
seriously how can anyone defend that level of force that quickly... they said they ordered the boy to drop the weapon 3 times in that time -before opening fire -
How fucking fast can you possibly drop a weapon and how can you do it without touching it?
I cant possibly think of an excuse that would work for this - death by cop - which would otherwise be called murder - yet again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yodajazz
I'm behind the curve and see that this post I made in the other thread was more appropriate here:
Here in my city police killed a 12 year old, with a toy (soft air) gun, three days ago. I guess he was too young to have 2nd amendment rights. And too old to be playing with toys. That awkward age, they say sometimes.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-boy/19471925/
Update: Most of the incident was captured on video. Apparently the kid did wave it around and point at people earlier, but when the police arrived he had it his waistband. He did not raise his hands when ordered by the police. Speculation, is that me may have wanted to show it to the police. The police already had their weapons drawn. There have been protests here in the city. But the strategy from the the city, has been to let the people vent. And they have gone home after the protest with no property damage.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
So the union representing the St Louis police officers were not amused by several members of the Rams football team raising their hands as they made their entrance to the stadium. I'm also barraged on facebook from a couple of conservative friends/relatives with all these heartfelt stories about how tough and dangerous it is to be a cop.
I really don't get all the sympathy that cops and their fb friends are crying out for. Deaths of police officers has been on a steep decline since the 1970's and an even steeper decline on a per capita basis, from around 240/yr to 100/yr last year. In 1911 there were 128 cop deaths, with one third the total population in the US. Seems to me that being a cop has never been more safe.
Add to this that they're one of the few professions remaining that have really strong union representation, thus pretty good wages relative to many professions where unions have been destroyed. Not sure what they're whining about.
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[NYPD Union boss] Patrick Lynch is obviously a very lousy poker player!
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My avatar picture, featuring Eazy E...
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Just watched the videotape. There's no way the police officer who choked Eric Garner should not have been prosecuted. The autopsy came back that it was a homicide, from compression to Garner's neck and chest. There can be a lot of arguments about exactly what happened in the Brown shooting (I haven't read all of the witness statements) but there's no doubt Pantaleo should have been indicted. The grand jury had a bunch of options in front of them including lesser charges like reckless endangerment...
I'm inclined to think that prosecutors are not independent enough...they must not be pursuing police officers the way they should be. Getting an indictment is typically very easy. There must have been a deliberate attempt to sandbag the grand jury process.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Quote:
Originally Posted by
broncofan
Just watched the videotape. There's no way the police officer who choked Eric Garner should not have been prosecuted. The autopsy came back that it was a homicide, from compression to Garner's neck and chest. There can be a lot of arguments about exactly what happened in the Brown shooting (I haven't read all of the witness statements) but there's no doubt Pantaleo should have been indicted. The grand jury had a bunch of options in front of them including lesser charges like reckless endangerment...
I'm inclined to think that prosecutors are not independent enough...they must not be pursuing police officers the way they should be. Getting an indictment is typically very easy. There must have been a deliberate attempt to sandbag the grand jury process.
So broncofan, did you see the video of the Cleveland cops shooting the 12 yr old? How do you see that one going down. The cops say they told the kid to raise his hands 3 times, but that can't be because the kid was shot within 2 seconds from the time the car pulled up. And then they didn't administer any emergency medical attention to the kid. I guess that maxim about dead victims not testifying holds here.
It's gotten really friggen crazy around here. Not sure if these remarkable situations are unique, or if the events are now just drawing more media and internet attention.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Odelay
So broncofan, did you see the video of the Cleveland cops shooting the 12 yr old? How do you see that one going down. The cops say they told the kid to raise his hands 3 times, but that can't be because the kid was shot within 2 seconds from the time the car pulled up. And then they didn't administer any emergency medical attention to the kid. I guess that maxim about dead victims not testifying holds here.
It's gotten really friggen crazy around here. Not sure if these remarkable situations are unique, or if the events are now just drawing more media and internet attention.
I was skimming the news today and I saw a headline about a report criticizing Cleveland police but I didn't see that case. I'm sure this has been going on for a long time...I am of the opinion that despite the Garner outcome, video cameras on police officers will be useful. It will act as some deterrent and for rational people who like video it can give them something to look at (knowing the facts is half the battle).
When I was a summer intern in law school I read at a couple of grand jury sessions. You literally read a statement of probable cause and answer a couple of the prosecutor's questions and five minutes later there's an indictment. I am saying this for those who don't know, probable cause is typically not a high standard. People may have apprehensions about what they saw on the video and don't want to rush to judgment, but they were only making a probable cause determination!
I just don't understand why something that is so frequently a summary process is turning into an impenetrable barrier. Even in the Brown case where there were multiple witnesses and there is a difficult factual reconstruction, you'd normally have an indictment with that evidence...it doesn't mean you necessarily get a conviction but the average person has to stand trial when they kill someone and the circumstances surrounding it are suspicious.
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I dated a cop once, he was very rigid - fuck the police!
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Odelay
So broncofan, did you see the video of the Cleveland cops shooting the 12 yr old? How do you see that one going down. The cops say they told the kid to raise his hands 3 times, but that can't be because the kid was shot within 2 seconds from the time the car pulled up. And then they didn't administer any emergency medical attention to the kid. I guess that maxim about dead victims not testifying holds here.
It's gotten really friggen crazy around here. Not sure if these remarkable situations are unique, or if the events are now just drawing more media and internet attention.
I read the entire report. Within it it details 16 incidents for example of various police misconduct. Here is one:
[SIZE="4"]" 1. CDP officers carelessly fire their weapons, placing themselves, subjects, and bystanders at unwarranted risk of serious injury or death.
We reviewed incidents in which officers carelessly or accidentally fired their weapons, at times critically injuring people, in instances where it may not have been appropriate to have drawn their firearms at all. An officer’s decision to reach into a man’s vehicle while the officer had his gun drawn and in his hand resulted in the officer shooting the man in the chest. “Nathan” had tried to make a right turn from the center lane, cutting off and almost colliding with a car that was proceeding straight through the intersection. It was 2:30 in the morning, and the area was crowded with pedestrians who had emptied out of the local bars and restaurants. Nathan was unable to complete the right turn because the street was blocked off, but by this time there were pedestrians crossing behind his vehicle, such that he could not back up into his lane. Consequently, he was stuck in the middle of the intersection, blocking traffic. At this point, an officer approached Nathan’s vehicle with his gun drawn. The records of the incident provide no
written basis to explain why he drew his gun, which is in itself a troubling fact. In his videotaped statement, the officer merely said he felt “uneasy” because he could not see Nathan’s hands. With his gun pointed at Nathan, the officer ordered Nathan to turn off his ignition and to show the officer his hands. The officer claims Nathan did not obey these commands and that he had his right hand down where the officer could not see it. Nathan claims that he had his hands up and was afraid to move them because the officer was pointing his gun at him. When Nathan did not comply, the officer himself attempted to turn off the vehicle. To do so, he leaned his entire upper body into the car and, with his right hand, attempted to turn off the car. Meanwhile, his gun was in his left hand, pointed at Nathan, and his finger was on the trigger. He claims that he then felt force on his hand “like [Nathan] was trying to grab my weapon.” The gun discharged, striking Nathan, who had been stopped originally for a potentially unlawful left turn,
once in the chest.
This shooting resulted from poor tactics by the officer ..."[SIZE]
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Re: Fuck the Police State
statistically Murder by Cop is climbing nationwide as the top cause of Homicide - Actually Utah it's number ONE above domestic violence related homicide and death's related to robbery. If you are killed by another human being in the state of Utah its more likely to be a cop than anyone else - WTF have we come to?
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Obama Takes Bold Step To Address Aggressive Police Tactics:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjZZNWxRKHU
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From the Guardian:
Gunman murders two NYPD officers in Brooklyn before shooting himself
- Officers killed in ambush named as Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos
- Suspect Ismaaiyl Brinsley also linked to shooting in Baltimore
- Police unions say ‘blood on hands’ of protesters and mayor
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...shoots-himself
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Very upsetting...
Three cops, a 17-year-old and 'a cry for help': why did Kristiana Coignard die?
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...police-killing
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NYPD Using ‘Road House’ to Train Cops:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6avKEcSIPmo
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You got the change you wanted. A nanny state. Have you heard the old saying if you live in my house you follow my rules? Well it's their house now.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Some of Eric Holder’s remarks concerning the Justice Department Report into police practices:
" He described Ferguson as a community where officials used law enforcement to generate revenue and did so disproportionately against African-Americans because of racial bias.
...
Although some community perceptions around the death of Michael Brown may not have been accurate, Mr Holder said, "the climate that created them was all too real". He added: "Some of those protesters were right."
...
Mr Holder said that while the problems found in the report in Ferguson were "acute" they were "not confined to any one city, state, or geographic region". "
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31735414
The militarization of law enforcement, racial prejudice and inappropriate funding practices (which amount in my estimation to extortion) predominate the landscape. I think better Federal oversight of local enforcement agencies, local justice departments and their “revenue raising” practices are warranted by the report. Not holding my breath though.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plankton
You got the change you wanted. A nanny state. Have you heard the old saying if you live in my house you follow my rules? Well it's their house now.
This is what you get when you couple racism with State legislatures that refuse to increase taxes, governors who cut funding to municipalities and courts that endorse the practice of civil asset forfeiture.
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Re: Fuck the Police State
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/0...standing-army/
"
On July 15, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) sent 13 law-enforcement officers to execute a paramilitary raid on a no-kill animal shelter in Kenosha. The crime? The shelter was harboring a fawn that had been abandoned by its mother and named Giggles by shelter volunteers. The shelter intended to turn the animal over to a wildlife reserve the next day, but that was not good enough for the DNR. Wisconsin law forbids the possession of wildlife, so DNR sent the heavily armed team to capture and euthanize Giggles.
Eleven days later and less than 100 miles away, staff at a nursing home in the Chicago suburb of Park Forest called paramedics after 95-year-old World War II veteran John Wrana, suffering from a delusional episode, refused medical treatment. The paramedics in turn called the police, which further agitated Wrana, who threatened them with his cane and a knife. The police responded by shooting Wrana with stun guns and bean bags fired from a shotgun. Wrana died from internal bleeding shortly thereafter.
A generation ago, it is unlikely that either of these situations would have elicited such a violent response from law enforcement. But over the last 40 years, police have moved steadily towards increasing levels of force and militarization with little regard for the situation. Journalist Radley Balko has been documenting this phenomenon for nearly a decade, and in Rise of the Warrior Cop he explains how America has been transformed into a country where police conduct something on the order of 50,000 SWAT raids a year."
Read more at the above link - the police state is real, the new standing army wears blue and it happened so slowly most of America hasnt even woken up to that fact yet...
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Re: Fuck the Police State
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TempestTS
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/0...standing-army/
"
On July 15, the Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) sent 13 law-enforcement officers to execute a paramilitary raid on a no-kill animal shelter in Kenosha. The crime? The shelter was harboring a fawn that had been abandoned by its mother and named Giggles by shelter volunteers. The shelter intended to turn the animal over to a wildlife reserve the next day, but that was not good enough for the DNR. Wisconsin law forbids the possession of wildlife, so DNR sent the heavily armed team to capture and euthanize Giggles.
Eleven days later and less than 100 miles away, staff at a nursing home in the Chicago suburb of Park Forest called paramedics after 95-year-old World War II veteran John Wrana, suffering from a delusional episode, refused medical treatment. The paramedics in turn called the police, which further agitated Wrana, who threatened them with his cane and a knife. The police responded by shooting Wrana with stun guns and bean bags fired from a shotgun. Wrana died from internal bleeding shortly thereafter.
A generation ago, it is unlikely that either of these situations would have elicited such a violent response from law enforcement. But over the last 40 years, police have moved steadily towards increasing levels of force and militarization with little regard for the situation. Journalist Radley Balko has been documenting this phenomenon for nearly a decade, and in Rise of the Warrior Cop he explains how America has been transformed into a country where police conduct something on the order of 50,000 SWAT raids a year."
Read more at the above link - the police state is real, the new standing army wears blue and it happened so slowly most of America hasnt even woken up to that fact yet...
Tempest, police are just stupid and trigger happy now. a really dangerous combination. The symptoms of a quasi police state are indeed there. Of course there are some in this very thread that will say it isn't so. That we are just making this stuff up. And that people deserve this type of reaction from law enforcement. We don't need a Hitler type or centralized oppressor to feel oppressed.
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/0...lie-in-report#
Why is someone be taken in to police custody for "sagging pants". Granted, it was illegal in that community, but that seems like an offense that should be covered by issuing a citation, not an arrest-able offence. I think the man probably had some mental health, and substance issues, but did he deserve to die? By the way, Whites were sagging long before Blacks. It was white blue collar workers, who were associated with 'having their burr cracks showing. For example, some had tool belts etc. I remember one tv episode of "Designing Women" in the early ninties, I guess, that had a long comedy segment about this. At the end a White plumber came in And when he went under the sink, you saw his crack, and the show ended, with a big laugh. 2013 a community makes it a crime, when Black youth are doing it. And in this story, a Black man is killed by the police in custody. But that's because it's no longer funny, huh?
