Boston Marathon

its a serious question douche-hole....grow up

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Originally Posted by dderek123

Fair enough.
I really don't get that reference though.

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In the USA, trying to sell someone the Brooklyn Bridge is a synonym for trying to put one over on someone who's unusually naïve or gullible, from the notion of a fast-talking New Yorker selling it to some unwary tourist from somewhere unsophisticated and rural.

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Originally Posted by Prospero

Yep - kudos to the police operation that finally took this oung man alive. So as biboysays we might get some insight into his motivation. Good to let the law take its due course.

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I'm especially keen to see this young man tried as a common criminal in the U.S. court system rather than as an enemy combatant by a military tribunal. I'm not clear on whether he's a citizen or a permanent resident but either way, as someone who's in the country lawfully, constitutional protections regarding due process accrue to him. Treat him as anyone else whose criminal actions resulted in four deaths and the injury and maiming of 180+ people. To do anything else is to lend credibility to his political cause.

Honestly, it's starting to look like his older brother was the one who had a hate-on for the U.S., he complained about how he couldn't get along here and didn't have any American friends, and how American people "lacked morals" (which, BTW, is a square in "Authoritarian Government Bingo"). He probably pulled his younger brother in for the ride, who knows why, it looks like the younger brother looked up to the older one a great deal.

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Originally Posted by BiBoyinBeantown

I'm especially keen to see this young man tried as a common criminal in the U.S. court system rather than as an enemy combatant by a military tribunal. I'm not clear on whether he's a citizen or a permanent resident but either way, as someone who's in the country lawfully, constitutional protections regarding due process accrue to him. Treat him as anyone else whose criminal actions resulted in four deaths and the injury and maiming of 180+ people. To do anything else is to lend credibility to his political cause.

Honestly, it's starting to look like his older brother was the one who had a hate-on for the U.S., he complained about how he couldn't get along here and didn't have any American friends, and how American people "lacked morals" (which, BTW, is a square in "Authoritarian Government Bingo"). He probably pulled his younger brother in for the ride, who knows why, it looks like the younger brother looked up to the older one a great deal.

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What rights should Dzhokhar Tsarnaev get and why does it matter?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...mirnada-rights

interesting...

http://gma.yahoo.com/boston-bomb-sus...opstories.html

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/201...BkI/story.html

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Originally Posted by BiBoyinBeantown

I'm especially keen to see this young man tried as a common criminal in the U.S. court system rather than as an enemy combatant by a military tribunal. I'm not clear on whether he's a citizen or a permanent resident but either way, as someone who's in the country lawfully, constitutional protections regarding due process accrue to him. Treat him as anyone else whose criminal actions resulted in four deaths and the injury and maiming of 180+ people. To do anything else is to lend credibility to his political cause.

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Dzhokar Tsarnaev, the survivor, became an American citizen on 9/11/2012.

As posters to this thread are probably aware, Dzhokar has not yet been mirandized. The law allows that under circumstances where public safety is an immediately issue a suspect may be questioned before being informed of his or her rights as a citizen. Were Dzhokar to be tried as a common criminal (which in my current thinking is preferable) not mirandizing him might render the information thereby obtained unacceptable to an ordinary criminal court. Is this a step toward trying Dzhokar as a terrorist in a military court? Any lawyers here?

The younger brother ran over and dragged the older one to his death. Maybe the injuries in that disputed picture occurred then.

I'm guessing that they will try to question him without the Miranda Rights for the purpose of gathering any intelligence info he may possess (if he remains conscious long enough to even be able to do that). As far as using his statements to convict him in a court of law - the issue would probably be moot anyway - I'm sure they have enough evidence against him without him saying a word.

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Originally Posted by dderek123

Wow that's a huge hole in his chest. Could that have been from a shotgun or AR 15?

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When the two brothers were involved in a shootout Thursday night, the younger brother was driving a vehicle, and literally drove over the other brother as he fled.

I'm no expert on what wounds look like, but that may be from having a car driven over him.

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Originally Posted by Queens Guy

When the two brothers were involved in a shootout Thursday night, the younger brother was driving a vehicle, and literally drove over the other brother as he fled.

I'm no expert on what wounds look like, but that may be from having a car driven over him.

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I Just read an article which is states that the huge gash in the chest is a thoracotomy incision, which is used by surgeons to reach multiple organs in the area, many times in an emergency. These organs include the heart and lungs, as well as the anterior spine.
THE MORE YOU KNOW! :)

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Originally Posted by fred41

I'm guessing that they will try to question him without the Miranda Rights for the purpose of gathering any intelligence info he may possess (if he remains conscious long enough to even be able to do that). As far as using his statements to convict him in a court of law - the issue would probably be moot anyway - I'm sure they have enough evidence against him without him saying a word.

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Thanks fred.

After the tipoff from Russian authorities why did the FBI conclude this guy was not a threat ? They interrogated him on 3 occasions. as well as family members. Why did Russian intelligence see his connection with Islamic extremism yet we closed his file? It's only great police work if you catch bad guys before they commit their crime, not afterward.

Well I personally think the Obama Administration will work very hard to try this case in the criminal courts. Indefinite detention for "enemy combatants" is no more appealing to American values than it was when Senator Obama was running for President. I think the Administration wants to demonstrate you don't have to go all the way down the sewer hole to deal with terrorism.

And I know it is conflicted thought because 44 has no problems with hit squads to eliminate Bin Laden or flying a drone up the tailpipe of a high value suspect\target.

But anything that can be done not to add to the perpetual nature of Gitmo is a plus.

And the AG can probably compromise 30 charges against the suspect and still get convictions on another six charges that will ensure he spends the rest of his time in the Federal prison system.

I thought when they didn't release the photos to the public right away that they had an idea who the badguys were. I think on ANYTHING related to terrorism, law enforcement's concerns lean more toward not getting blamed for doing something wrong, than actually admitting this is going to be a long ugly business.

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Originally Posted by flabbybody

After the tipoff from Russian authorities why did the FBI conclude this guy was not a threat ? They interrogated him on 3 occasions. as well as family members. Why did Russian intelligence see his connection with Islamic extremism yet we closed his file? It's only great police work if you catch bad guys before they commit their crime, not afterward.

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This 1000%. I'm ripping my hair out over all of this 'good police work' stuff. Do you know why they caught him? Because he never left Massachusetts. In fact, the younger suspect was only one block outside of the police perimeter when it was set up. That's actually quite lousy police work.

~BB~

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Originally Posted by buttslinger

I thought when they didn't release the photos to the public right away that they had an idea who the badguys were. I think on ANYTHING related to terrorism, law enforcement's concerns lean more toward not getting blamed for doing something wrong, than actually admitting this is going to be an
long ugly business.

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Perhaps and not telling high value suspects you are on to them is sound procedure. The longer you know who they are and they don't know that you do, the longer you can collect intelligence.

But I think it is likely that the FBI concluded that the brothers were clowns and much more threat to the Russians in their ongoing occupation of Chechnya, than they were to the US.

And while their bombs were good enough IEDs, their lack of plan post bombing was glaring. These boys weren't playing suicide rules but once their photos got out the acted like panicked amateurs.

Any time a lead gets over looked to an eventual crime a mistakes had been made but in this case it may be a combination of Geo Politics and that the brothers were clowns.

This

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The significance of the trip was magnified late Friday when the F.B.I. disclosed in a statement that in 2011 “a foreign government” — now acknowledged by officials to be Russia — asked for information about Tamerlan. The request was “based on information that he was a follower of radical Islam and a strong believer, and that he had changed drastically since 2010 as he prepared to leave the United States for travel to the country’s region to join unspecified underground groups.”
The senior law enforcement official said the Russians feared he could be a risk, and “they had something on him and were concerned about him, and him traveling to their region.” Chechen extremists pose a greater threat to Russia than they do to the United States, counterterrorism specialists say, though some of the groups have had ties to Al Qaeda.
But the F.B.I. never followed up on Tamerlan once he returned, a senior law enforcement official acknowledged on Saturday, adding that its investigation did not turn up anything and it did not have the legal authority to keep tabs on him.

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from

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/us...?smid=pl-share

It's a delicate balance between Federal surveillance of a citizen and the expectation of privacy. In the U.S. people can have extreme beliefs about all sorts of things including religion and governance and still retain the rights accorded to all citizens by the Constitution. In hind sight perhaps the FBI should have kept tabs on these guys. Perhaps they did. Would further surveillance have required a court order? Were court orders requested? Denied? Questions which have yet to be asked and answered. I happen to think the FBI and the various Boston law enforcement agencies did a great job over the past few days after the shit hit the fan. Whether the FBI did a good job prior to the tragic event is a judgement that is at present difficult to make.

Lebanese peered from YouTube and "brainwashing" Boston bomber
Tamerlan Tsarnayev affected by preacher Sheikh Faiz Mohammad inciting children to martyrdom

Source: http://www.alarabiya.net/ar/latest-n...%B7%D9%86.html

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Originally Posted by trish

It's a delicate balance between Federal surveillance of a citizen and the expectation of privacy. In the U.S. people can have extreme beliefs about all sorts of things including religion and governance and still retain the rights accorded to all citizens by the Constitution.

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Tamerlan was not a citizen. He applied but the application was "delayed" due to his FBI interview.

My question is how the Russians even came to know anything about this guy, since he had been in the U.S. from about 2002.

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Originally Posted by flabbybody

After the tipoff from Russian authorities why did the FBI conclude this guy was not a threat ? They interrogated him on 3 occasions. as well as family members. Why did Russian intelligence see his connection with Islamic extremism yet we closed his file? It's only great police work if you catch bad guys before they commit their crime, not afterward.

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The FBI way very well have thought him a threat, or a potential threat. But we don't imprison people for 'being threats'. We only imprison them for committing crimes.

I think you can still say it was great police work. The bombers still had plenty of bombs on them when apprehended. They still had plenty of bombs left. They could have, but didn't leave the area. Their work wasn't done. But the police caught them first.

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Originally Posted by nysprod

Tamerlan was not a citizen. He applied but the application was "delayed" due to his FBI interview.

My question is how the Russians even came to know anything about this guy, since he had been in the U.S. from about 2002.

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Didn't he travel to Chechnya for six months just a few years ago? Apparently for terrorism training? The KGB keeps track of foreigners who do that.

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Originally Posted by Queens Guy

Didn't he travel to Chechnya for six months just a few years ago? Apparently for terrorism training? The KGB keeps track of foreigners who do that.

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The KGB no longer exists, but yeah.

~BB~

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Originally Posted by nysprod

Tamerlan was not a citizen. He applied but the application was "delayed" due to his FBI interview.

My question is how the Russians even came to know anything about this guy, since he had been in the U.S. from about 2002.

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Thanks for the correction.
Perhaps the Russians keep a closer eye on the internet chatter of Chechyan extremist groups and discovered Tamerlan via that activity.

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Originally Posted by trish

I happen to think the FBI and the various Boston law enforcement agencies did a great job over the past few days after the shit hit the fan. Whether the FBI did a good job prior to the tragic event is a judgement that is at present difficult to make.

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I concur. The remained calm, did not spend too much or too little time in front of the media.

Once they concluded the had good photographic IDs on both suspects, brought the citizens into it. That pretty much smoked out the brothers who were clowns and had no viable plans.

They shut down large parts of the city, including the suspected are in Watertown and the got their man.

The state and local authorities worked their drill well. The only question that seems to able to get any traction is did the FBI blow off the intelligence regarding the older brother?

So far I think America has done OK. We did not freak out like we did in 2001 and so far Obama has not suggested we get in a conventional war with Iran.

Terrorism is part of the world landscape and IMO we took the body blow without freaking out and had the bad guys of the street in less than 100 hours.

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Originally Posted by Queens Guy

Didn't he travel to Chechnya for six months just a few years ago? Apparently for terrorism training? The KGB keeps track of foreigners who do that.

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I want to know what the father's involvement in this is...I mean, he lives in the U.S. for like 10 years, then decides to leave his sons here to go live in a dangerous place where civil war has been going on for years?

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Originally Posted by BellaBellucci

The KGB no longer exists, but yeah.

~BB~

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KGB, FSB, to-may-to, to-mah-to

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Originally Posted by trish

Thanks for the correction.
Perhaps the Russians keep a closer eye on the internet chatter of Chechyan extremist groups and discovered Tamerlan via that activity.

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So essentially Russian LE is more thorough at anti-terrorist surveillance than its American counterpart. Why is that? Who at the FBI made the horribly wrong judgement call to close the file on this guy? Someone needs to answer for that

The London Marathon passed without incident, but with a minute's silence at the start and many moving tributes paid by both star athletes and those running for charity.

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Originally Posted by BiBoyinBeantown

In the USA, trying to sell someone the Brooklyn Bridge is a synonym for trying to put one over on someone who's unusually naïve or gullible, from the notion of a fast-talking New Yorker selling it to some unwary tourist from somewhere unsophisticated and rural.

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Thanks for clearing that up man. Oh well, I guess some people are incapable of disagreeing with someone else without attributing their opinion to some serious flaw of their character. That must be exhausting.

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Originally Posted by flabbybody

So essentially Russian LE is more thorough at anti-terrorist surveillance than its American counterpart. Why is that? Who at the FBI made the horribly wrong judgement call to close the file on this guy? Someone needs to answer for that

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I'm not sure they actually "closed the file"...they felt at the time, 2 years ago, that he wasn't an immediate threat.

They can't surveill everyone 24/7/365 and if he planned this on his own and never communicated, that obviously makes it harder to tie him to anything. Of course, we'll probably learn more about this going forward.

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Originally Posted by flabbybody

So essentially Russian LE is more thorough at anti-terrorist surveillance than its American counterpart. Why is that? Who at the FBI made the horribly wrong judgement call to close the file on this guy? Someone needs to answer for that

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I'm merely guessing that recent history between Russia and Chechnyan jihadists suggests that the Russians have reason to interpret Chechnyan extremist chatter more sensitively than do we.

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Originally Posted by flabbybody

So essentially Russian LE is more thorough at anti-terrorist surveillance than its American counterpart. Why is that? Who at the FBI made the horribly wrong judgement call to close the file on this guy? Someone needs to answer for that

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^ This.

But you know: good policing, coordination of officials, 'Murrica...

~BB~

Meanwhile, a list of American dipshits who seemingly can't tell the difference between the Czech Republic and Chechnya.....

And want to nuke Prague as a result. Words fail me.

http://http://www.facebook.com/l.php...he&h=wAQFPqCSh

Well Prague is "over there" isn't it... foreign.... jeez the lynch mob mentality that emerges at times like this is truly terrifying.

The suggestion that the suspect now held should be denied his miranda rights and treated as an "Enemy combatent" shames those who make this call.

Actually Ive a better idea. This has got to stop. Why not round up all those who are most likely to cause crimes or commit acts of terror in the US - you know Muslims, blacks, illegal immigrants - and concentrate them all in a few big camps somewhere out of public sight.

There was a bombing on the Moscow subway in 2010 attributed to Chechen separatists -female suicide bombers, 38 dead, 60+ injured; the hammering of Chechnya which took place first under Yeltsin then under Putin's orders has dampened down the most extreme violence, but the tensions remain as does an independence movement. It used to be argued that the Chechen Muslims were more mystical than political owing to the influence of the Sufi, but in recent years the export of Saudi-funded 'education' and the opportunity for foreign fighters to get some field experience in a conflict zone has changed the rhetoric and complexion of some-I don't know how many- Muslims in the Caucasus. The elder brother Tamerlan seems to have been attracted by this uncompromising perspective, and maybe felt a gesture in the US would 'wake up' America to a forgotten conflict, even though relations between the USA and Russia are not close, its not as if they are colluding against the Chechen.

I can't see any other motivation outside resentment by the elder brother that he didn't make it in America. There is a report on today's papers that when an Imam in a Boston mosque was praising Martin Luther King, Tamerlan shouted at him something to the effect that King was not a Muslim and therefore an irrelevance -he was told to shut up and then left the mosque. Lots of people don't 'make it' in America, but they don't blame it on the country and then kill people as a result. So there is some Islamic politics mixed up in the alienated psychology of one or both of the brothers. Not sure which is the most potent in this case.

The gentler Sufi movement within Islam is under attack across the Muslim world by the Wahhabist/Salafist elements. The uncompromising brand of Islam practised in Saudi Arabia and exported around the world now is part of a "devil's compact a long time ago between the al-Saud tribe the Wahhabi religious leaders to ensure power in Arabia. This extremist brand has also seen the Saudi authorities demolish most of the historic shrines within their domain - as abberations against pure islam.

I bow to Stavros' greater knowledge of the internal politics of Dagestan, Chechnya and the on-going war with Russia.

You ever heard of Gitmo ,non of those guys have actually committed a crime .Its the USA's gulag .

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Originally Posted by Stavros

There was a bombing on the Moscow subway in 2010 attributed to Chechen separatists -female suicide bombers, 38 dead, 60+ injured; the hammering of Chechnya which took place first under Yeltsin then under Putin's orders has dampened down the most extreme violence, but the tensions remain as does an independence movement. It used to be argued that the Chechen Muslims were more mystical than political owing to the influence of the Sufi, but in recent years the export of Saudi-funded 'education' and the opportunity for foreign fighters to get some field experience in a conflict zone has changed the rhetoric and complexion of some-I don't know how many- Muslims in the Caucasus. The elder brother Tamerlan seems to have been attracted by this uncompromising perspective, and maybe felt a gesture in the US would 'wake up' America to a forgotten conflict, even though relations between the USA and Russia are not close, its not as if they are colluding against the Chechen.

I can't see any other motivation outside resentment by the elder brother that he didn't make it in America. There is a report on today's papers that when an Imam in a Boston mosque was praising Martin Luther King, Tamerlan shouted at him something to the effect that King was not a Muslim and therefore an irrelevance -he was told to shut up and then left the mosque. Lots of people don't 'make it' in America, but they don't blame it on the country and then kill people as a result. So there is some Islamic politics mixed up in the alienated psychology of one or both of the brothers. Not sure which is the most potent in this case.

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Thanks for the insightful post.